Sociology > Education > Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are
| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Stan de SD" |
| Date: |
09 Apr 2006 01:29:24 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
"Rita Refugee" <Rita_Refugee@Hurricane.com> wrote in message
news:__9_f.1605$zh1.1222@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Day Brown" <daybrown@ozarkisp.net> wrote in message
news:1144594485.313793.54670@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I hate to rattle your cage Stan, but that works both ways. I've seen
employers hire on a trial basis at a low wage promising to up the pay
after 90 days. At which point- the hiree gets fired, and they hire the
next guy.
That would only work at places where the training requirements are
inexpensive and minimal. Otherwise the companies would spend more money
constantly training new employees than in paying the old ones with an
increase.
What many of those demonstrating in France don't seem to understand is
that this new law actually makes it easier for young people to find a job.
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are more caught up in
their emotions than a rational assessment of their situation. The French
aren't really much better than the street hoods who rioted and burned down
large sections of LA during the Rodney King riots. One day they threaten
people and break ***** to protest The Man; the next day they wonder why The
Man has no jobs for them. :O|
If the law makes it extremely difficult to fire a worker, then employers
will be very very careful about those they do hire. If the law makes it
easy to fire a first-time employee, then employers will hire much more
quickly knowing that if the employee doesn't work out thet they can fire
them and find a replacement. The current law is one reason that they have
a
22% unemployment among young people. In some poor and heavily immigrant
neighborhoods the unemployment rate among the same age group is 50%.
It is very similar to what happens here when the minimum wage law is
raised. The minimum wage law makes it illegal to hire certain workers (
those not capable of producing output at or above the wage rate ). Here
in
SW Louisiana since Hurricane Rita, almost every employer has signs out
saying "Now Hiring". And the rates they are paying is over minimum wage.
But even then they can not find employees to come to work. The local
McDonalds have a bunch of Romanian college graduates, some with
professional
degrees, working there because they can make more money working at
McDonalds
here than they can in their chosen professions in Romania. I talked to
one
of the McDonalds managers this week and he said that the problem is that
many young people want a job but they don't want to work.
Bingo.
They will get
hired, work two days and then quit. The local Burger Kings even went to
paying a bonus to get employees. They were paying $7 an hour and for each
month the employee stays, up to 6 months, they would get a bonus of $250 a
month, or a total of $1500 in bonus if they stayed for the full 6 months.
At the refinery where I work we were offering maintenance jobs at $32 an
hour and still very few were showing up.
Some companies lost workers when their employees got their $2,000 FEMA
check. These people decided that they were now rich and didn't need to
work
anymore. Once the money ran out and they went back to get their jobs, in
many cases the employers told them that their poor judgement had made it
impossible to rehire them.
Which is exactly what they deserved.
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| User: "Secret Squirrel" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
15 Apr 2006 08:56:41 PM |
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:ddd40$44395202$45035f0d$14748@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
Spam warote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are
more caught up in their emotions than a rational assessment
of their situation.
Reverse that: the intellectual heritage of the left is from
the Enlightenment, the rational and dispassionate application
of the learning and methods of science to understanding,
and then solving, human society and its problems.
The intellectual heritage of the Right is opposed to that,
claiming a deeper, and more profound, understanding arises
from one's gut "feelings", which arise from what you learn
sitting on your grandpappy's knee. They claim that this
tradition is "wisdom" more sound than the rational
intellectualism of the left.
If you really knew anything and took the time to learn
anything, instead of spamming usenet all the time, you'd
know this. It's why we have a Religious Right instead of
a Religious Left. Placing what's you're feeling in your
gut to be the highest source of wisdom is at the root of
both conservative philosophy and religion; heck, Dubya
himself has stated that he trusts his gut "feelings" more
than rational arguments.
The French aren't really much better
than the street hoods who rioted and burned down large
sections of LA during the Rodney King riots.
A lot of said rioting was done by outsiders.
Secret Squirrel
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
16 Apr 2006 12:51:38 AM |
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"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in message
news:9ULU5UZP38822.8726967593@anonymous.poster...
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:ddd40$44395202$45035f0d$14748@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
Spam warote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are
more caught up in their emotions than a rational assessment
of their situation.
Reverse that: the intellectual heritage of the left is from
the Enlightenment, the rational and dispassionate application
of the learning and methods of science to understanding,
and then solving, human society and its problems.
Which they have abandoned in an age of political correctness...
The intellectual heritage of the Right is opposed to that,
claiming a deeper, and more profound, understanding arises
from one's gut "feelings", which arise from what you learn
sitting on your grandpappy's knee. They claim that this
tradition is "wisdom" more sound than the rational
intellectualism of the left.
If the left is so "rational", explain why the economic system they espouse
are failures.
If you really knew anything and took the time to learn
anything, instead of spamming usenet all the time, you'd
know this. It's why we have a Religious Right instead of
a Religious Left.
There are plenty of left-wing religious movements: Marxism, radical
environmentalism, multiculturalism...
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
16 Apr 2006 07:45:31 AM |
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in message
news:9ULU5UZP38822.8726967593@anonymous.poster...
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:ddd40$44395202$45035f0d$14748@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
Spam warote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are
more caught up in their emotions than a rational assessment
of their situation.
Reverse that: the intellectual heritage of the left is from
the Enlightenment, the rational and dispassionate application
of the learning and methods of science to understanding,
and then solving, human society and its problems.
Which they have abandoned in an age of political correctness...
Ayn Rand was no scientist. Nor is Pat Robertson.
The intellectual heritage of the Right is opposed to that,
claiming a deeper, and more profound, understanding arises
from one's gut "feelings", which arise from what you learn
sitting on your grandpappy's knee. They claim that this
tradition is "wisdom" more sound than the rational
intellectualism of the left.
If the left is so "rational", explain why the economic system they espouse
are failures.
Because economics is a pseudoscience and human beings do NOT behave
rationally in the marketplace.
lojbab
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
16 Apr 2006 09:44:54 PM |
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"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:sve442p648l1pdmg2uvgaclghin0lsg537@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in message
news:9ULU5UZP38822.8726967593@anonymous.poster...
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:ddd40$44395202$45035f0d$14748@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
Spam warote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are
more caught up in their emotions than a rational assessment
of their situation.
Reverse that: the intellectual heritage of the left is from
the Enlightenment, the rational and dispassionate application
of the learning and methods of science to understanding,
and then solving, human society and its problems.
Which they have abandoned in an age of political correctness...
Ayn Rand was no scientist. Nor is Pat Robertson.
Were either of them mentioned in this discussion?
The intellectual heritage of the Right is opposed to that,
claiming a deeper, and more profound, understanding arises
from one's gut "feelings", which arise from what you learn
sitting on your grandpappy's knee. They claim that this
tradition is "wisdom" more sound than the rational
intellectualism of the left.
If the left is so "rational", explain why the economic system they
espouse
are failures.
Because economics is a pseudoscience and human beings do NOT behave
rationally in the marketplace.
Explain why socialism, the system beloved of liberals, is still a failure.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
16 Apr 2006 11:13:32 PM |
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
Because economics is a pseudoscience and human beings do NOT behave
rationally in the marketplace.
Explain why socialism, the system beloved of liberals, is still a failure.
It isn't, as witness the fact that pretty much every nation in the
world has some degree of it.
Nor would I say that it is a system "beloved by liberals".
lojbab
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
17 Apr 2006 02:18:25 AM |
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"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:9c5642lpmtbl7iss4cne422j3dpo958q7t@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
Because economics is a pseudoscience and human beings do NOT behave
rationally in the marketplace.
Explain why socialism, the system beloved of liberals, is still a
failure.
It isn't, as witness the fact that pretty much every nation in the
world has some degree of it.
Every person in the world has some degree of toxins in his system: does that
mean it's good for them?
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| User: "Secret Squirrel" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense on usenet showing how clueless libertarians really are |
18 Apr 2006 10:50:43 AM |
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:694d$444340ae$45035f0d$6715@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:9c5642lpmtbl7iss4cne422j3dpo958q7t@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
Because economics is a pseudoscience and human beings
do NOT behave rationally in the marketplace.
Explain why socialism, the system beloved of liberals, is
still a
failure.
It isn't, as witness the fact that pretty much every
nation in the world has some degree of it.
Every person in the world has some degree of toxins in his
system: does that mean it's good for them?
Yes indeed. Copper is one such example. Too much, and you're
dead. Not enough, and you're dead.
Come to think of it, that's an excellent analogy.
Secret Squirrel
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| User: "Secret Squirrel" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
17 Apr 2006 03:04:27 PM |
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"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:d73d6$4441dad5$45035f0d$26426@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in
message news:9ULU5UZP38822.8726967593@anonymous.poster...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:ddd40$44395202$45035f0d$14748@msgid.meganewsservers.co
m:
Spam warote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum
are more caught up in their emotions than a rational
assessment of their situation.
Reverse that: the intellectual heritage of the left is
from the Enlightenment, the rational and dispassionate
application of the learning and methods of science to
understanding, and then solving, human society and its
problems.
Which they have abandoned in an age of political
correctness...
Not at all. It's just impossible for humans to be
completely rational, Ayn Rand's posturings notwithstanding.
But it helps to have an ideology that doesn't surrender
at the get-go and encourage you to wallow in your "feelings"
as the arbitrer of what's good and true. Stan?
The intellectual heritage of the Right is opposed to that,
claiming a deeper, and more profound, understanding arises
from one's gut "feelings", which arise from what you learn
sitting on your grandpappy's knee. They claim that this
tradition is "wisdom" more sound than the rational
intellectualism of the left.
If the left is so "rational", explain why the economic
system they espouse are failures.
What economic system(s) are you talking about?
If you're talking about the capitalist welfare state,
that's almost an unqualified success, in the larger
historical context. No other economic system in history
brought as much unparalleled economic growth coupled
with a more equitable distribution of said wealth into
the lives of most people. Of course, given the environmental
depletion that it's also bringing about, whether or not
it will end in catastrophic collapse is still an unanswered
question.
If you're talking about "socialism" (and I suspect
that you always conflate this to mean "state socialism",
despite the fact that there exists non-state socialism,
the form of existence of humanity for the bulk of its
time on earth) I would agree that most of these have
achieved less-than-satisfactory results.
If you really knew anything and took the time to learn
anything, instead of spamming usenet all the time, you'd
know this. It's why we have a Religious Right instead of
a Religious Left.
There are plenty of left-wing religious movements: Marxism,
radical environmentalism, multiculturalism...
Marxism? Religious? Funny, I would have said "yes", but most
Christian Rightists would have pointed to it as an example
of what godless atheism does--the perserving of Lenin's body
as a sort of holy relic notwithstanding. Not to mention that
there have been as many flavors of Marxism as colors of
underwear nowadays. What type(s) did you have in mind?
"Radical environmentalism"? What "radicals"? And how are they
"religious"?
"Multiculturalism"? You think that refusing to examine, and
learn, from other cultures, and to trying to view our culture
from their perspective, is somehow "anti-rational" and anti-
empirical? How so?
Secret Squirrel
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
09 Apr 2006 06:23:11 PM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are more caught up in
their emotions than a rational assessment of their situation.
I will respond to another article later. Your inability to think
rationally
about this issue is clouding your judgement. What is at issue is the
human condition. We can choose to devaule humanity and human
needs or we can think rationally about how to meet them.
Once you get to the point of deciding what rights poeple have you've
moved beyond the evidence. No one has any more right to employ
that others have to be employed--there's not rights to it.
If you want to think rationally then you have to question your
assumptions. You don't appear to be willing or able to do that.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
09 Apr 2006 07:52:18 PM |
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<forbisgaryg@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1144624990.919782.187030@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are more caught
up in
their emotions than a rational assessment of their situation.
I will respond to another article later. Your inability to think
rationally about this issue is clouding your judgement.
I beg your pardon?
What is at issue is the
human condition. We can choose to devaule humanity and human
needs or we can think rationally about how to meet them.
Sounds like you're the one incapable of thinking rationally. You're more
concerned with blathering goo-goo platitudes than evaluating the situation,
analyzing the effect of the legislation in question, and determining whether
said legislation really does benefit the "workers", as those who support it
claim it does.
Once you get to the point of deciding what rights poeple have you've
moved beyond the evidence.
Apparently you and your ilk have decided that employers don't have the right
to terminate unproductive workers, so you really shouldn't talk...
No one has any more right to employ
that others have to be employed--there's not rights to it.
So you're saying that individuals have no right to engage in voluntary
contracts? What's your flavor of totalitarianism - communism or fascism?
If you want to think rationally then you have to question your
assumptions. You don't appear to be willing or able to do that.
Look in a mirror when you say that...
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
10 Apr 2006 02:38:36 AM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
<forbisgaryg@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1144624990.919782.187030@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are more caught
up in their emotions than a rational assessment of their situation.
I will respond to another article later. Your inability to think
rationally about this issue is clouding your judgement.
I beg your pardon?
What is at issue is the
human condition. We can choose to devaule humanity and human
needs or we can think rationally about how to meet them.
Sounds like you're the one incapable of thinking rationally.
So you're saying that individuals have no right to engage in voluntary
contracts? What's your flavor of totalitarianism - communism or fascism?
Anarchy, at least when dealing with facists. Don't you recognize your
own position?
I'm very anti-authoritarian. There are no rights not negoitiated.
No one should feel or is bound by a contract to which they were not
a party in the negotiations. No contract is valid beyond the parties
desire to honor its terms.
If you want a civil society you're going to have to negotiate contracts
that people will want to abide by.
Do people, including you, have any intrinsic value?
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
10 Apr 2006 12:51:33 PM |
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<forbisgaryg@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1144654716.383014.46180@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
<forbisgaryg@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1144624990.919782.187030@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
Most people on the left side of the political spectrum are more
caught
up in their emotions than a rational assessment of their situation.
I will respond to another article later. Your inability to think
rationally about this issue is clouding your judgement.
I beg your pardon?
What is at issue is the
human condition. We can choose to devaule humanity and human
needs or we can think rationally about how to meet them.
Sounds like you're the one incapable of thinking rationally.
So you're saying that individuals have no right to engage in voluntary
contracts? What's your flavor of totalitarianism - communism or fascism?
Anarchy, at least when dealing with facists. Don't you recognize your
own position?
I'm very anti-authoritarian.
Yea, you and a few million spoiled teenagers - and you're not much
different. All of you want "freedom" to do what you want while demanding
that others pay the bill. In the case of most teenagers, it's wanting to
rebel against Mommy and Daddy while still getting an allowance because you
can't get a job. In the case of you, it's demanding that others employ you
when they would rather not. The details are different, but the attitude is
the same.
There are no rights not negoitiated. No one should feel or is bound by a
contract to which they were not
a party in the negotiations.
You telling us you were forced to take a particular job? Grow up.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
10 Apr 2006 08:58:56 PM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
<forbisgaryg@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1144654716.383014.46180@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
So you're saying that individuals have no right to engage in voluntary
contracts? What's your flavor of totalitarianism - communism or fascism?
Anarchy, at least when dealing with facists. Don't you recognize your
own position?
I'm very anti-authoritarian.
Yea, you and a few million spoiled teenagers - and you're not much
different. All of you want "freedom" to do what you want while demanding
that others pay the bill.
Why can't you deal with facts rather than your wild fantacies? You
talk about
emotional responses in liberals rather than being rational thinkers and
yet
here you are with your emotionally charged assertions.
In the case of most teenagers, it's wanting to
rebel against Mommy and Daddy while still getting an allowance because you
can't get a job. In the case of you, it's demanding that others employ you
when they would rather not. The details are different, but the attitude is
the same.
This is your notion of rational argument?
There are no rights not negoitiated. No one should feel or is bound
by a contract to which they were not a party in the negotiations.
You telling us you were forced to take a particular job? Grow up.
More of your "rational argument"?
I'm merely stating fact. Contracts are no more valid that the parties'
willingness to abide by them. Sometimes force is threatened or applied
to garner compliance. I was pretty clear about this in the part you
cut.
When you're ready to talk rationally about the issue we can start to
talk
about psychology, needs, security, etc. We can talk about optimization
of resource distribution and production. We can talk of many things
once
you're ready. For now, you just mouth words without understanding. I
profess no deep understanding but sufficient surface understanding to
be conversant with the concepts.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
10 Apr 2006 09:41:35 PM |
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<forbisgaryg@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1144720736.097296.310560@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
<forbisgaryg@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1144654716.383014.46180@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Stan de SD wrote:
So you're saying that individuals have no right to engage in
voluntary
contracts? What's your flavor of totalitarianism - communism or
fascism?
Anarchy, at least when dealing with facists. Don't you recognize your
own position?
I'm very anti-authoritarian.
Yea, you and a few million spoiled teenagers - and you're not much
different. All of you want "freedom" to do what you want while demanding
that others pay the bill.
Why can't you deal with facts rather than your wild fantacies?
I am dealing with facts. Leftists are VERY much like adoloescents: they want
"freedom" to do as they please while insisting that others must bear the
costs for their whims.
In the case of most teenagers, it's wanting to
rebel against Mommy and Daddy while still getting an allowance because
you
can't get a job. In the case of you, it's demanding that others employ
you
when they would rather not. The details are different, but the attitude
is
the same.
This is your notion of rational argument?
It is an exceedingly rational argument - based on actual observations,
critical analysis - and one that apparently you can not refute.
There are no rights not negoitiated. No one should feel or is bound
by a contract to which they were not a party in the negotiations.
You telling us you were forced to take a particular job? Grow up.
More of your "rational argument"?
Come on - were you forced to take a particular job? You entered a voluntary
contract with another party. Unless you have specific agreements in writing
to the contrary, you can legally terminate the contract at any time, and so
can your employer.
I'm merely stating fact. Contracts are no more valid that the parties'
willingness to abide by them. Sometimes force is threatened or applied
to garner compliance. I was pretty clear about this in the part you
cut.
You did a better job this time around. So you acknowledge that the decision
to engage in (as well as terminate) a contract can work both ways?
When you're ready to talk rationally about the issue we can start to
talk
about psychology, needs, security, etc. We can talk about optimization
of resource distribution and production. We can talk of many things
once
you're ready. For now, you just mouth words without understanding. I
profess no deep understanding but sufficient surface understanding to
be conversant with the concepts.
I have provided a very detailed description as to why the French employment
laws are counterproductive elsewhere in this thread. You are welcome to
address individual points accordingly, and I will respond in kind.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
11 Apr 2006 10:48:45 AM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
I am dealing with facts. Leftists are VERY much like adoloescents: they want
"freedom" to do as they please while insisting that others must bear the
costs for their whims.
So libertarians are leftist?. After all, they want "freedom" to do as
they please while insisting that others must bear the costs for their
whims; they just want others to bear the costs through market forces
rather than taxation.
lojbab
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
11 Apr 2006 10:02:35 PM |
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|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:6rjn3250psn9d7irqjolo7bu7825ekk9p7@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
I am dealing with facts. Leftists are VERY much like adoloescents: they
want
"freedom" to do as they please while insisting that others must bear the
costs for their whims.
So libertarians are leftist?. After all, they want "freedom" to do as
they please while insisting that others must bear the costs for their
whims; they just want others to bear the costs through market forces
rather than taxation.
Thanks for reminding us how confused you are. I know that you believe that
it's the government's money as well, and that giving people tax breaks is
the equivalent of a subsidy - but that's simply proof that you have lived in
the Washington DC area WAY too long... :O|
.
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|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
12 Apr 2006 05:12:22 AM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:6rjn3250psn9d7irqjolo7bu7825ekk9p7@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
I am dealing with facts. Leftists are VERY much like adoloescents: they want
"freedom" to do as they please while insisting that others must bear the
costs for their whims.
So libertarians are leftist?. After all, they want "freedom" to do as
they please while insisting that others must bear the costs for their
whims; they just want others to bear the costs through market forces
rather than taxation.
Thanks for reminding us how confused you are.
I am not confused at all. I just pointed out that your silly
definition applied to loonytunians.
I know that you believe that it's the government's money as well,
Only in the sense that the government issued it, regulates it, and
could in theory declare it valueless as legal tender at any time. But
that is irrelevant to the above comparison of leftist and libertarian/
and that giving people tax breaks is the equivalent of a subsidy
It is in terms of the above analysis - a tax break gets someone else
to pay the costs of the government instead of the person who gets the
tax break. The government is spending the money in any event, so
someone will pay for it - if not you, some later generation. And
everyone's "freedom" includes the benefits from all that government
largess.
lojbab
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
12 Apr 2006 10:37:30 AM |
|
|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:h4kp32t3gakkneao60ffbj954ofmtsqvme@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:6rjn3250psn9d7irqjolo7bu7825ekk9p7@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
I am dealing with facts. Leftists are VERY much like adoloescents:
they want
"freedom" to do as they please while insisting that others must bear
the
costs for their whims.
So libertarians are leftist?. After all, they want "freedom" to do as
they please while insisting that others must bear the costs for their
whims; they just want others to bear the costs through market forces
rather than taxation.
Thanks for reminding us how confused you are.
I am not confused at all. I just pointed out that your silly
definition applied to loonytunians.
Yes, Bob's tactic: anyone who is concerned with actual results is a
"loonytunian". As I said, you have been living way too close to DC way too
long.
I know that you believe that it's the government's money as well,
Only in the sense that the government issued it, regulates it, and
could in theory declare it valueless as legal tender at any time.
I guess the "sense" of who actually produced something of value to earn it
doesn't apply in your little calculus, does it?
.
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|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
12 Apr 2006 11:56:13 AM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
I guess the "sense" of who actually produced something of value to earn it
doesn't apply in your little calculus, does it?
Most of the production these days is taking place in China and Mexico
where labor costs are cheaper.
lojbab
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
12 Apr 2006 12:25:08 PM |
|
|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:68cq32pfktbegskpd260fdopi4jfi6e6i2@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
I guess the "sense" of who actually produced something of value to earn
it
doesn't apply in your little calculus, does it?
Most of the production these days is taking place in China and Mexico
where labor costs are cheaper.
Thanks for the non-sequitur, Bob. Somehow I have come to expect that from
you. :O|
.
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|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
12 Apr 2006 05:34:13 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:68cq32pfktbegskpd260fdopi4jfi6e6i2@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
I guess the "sense" of who actually produced something of value to earn
it
doesn't apply in your little calculus, does it?
Most of the production these days is taking place in China and Mexico
where labor costs are cheaper.
Thanks for the non-sequitur, Bob. Somehow I have come to expect that from
you. :O|
My point is that most loonytoonians produce nothing. They merely use
others in order to amass capital and then manipulate the markets to
get more capital.
What have you produced lately, other than hot air?
lojbab
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
12 Apr 2006 10:23:08 PM |
|
|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:200r3255kj9cupb87cv6ipbm0rip7omshf@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:68cq32pfktbegskpd260fdopi4jfi6e6i2@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
I guess the "sense" of who actually produced something of value to
earn
it
doesn't apply in your little calculus, does it?
Most of the production these days is taking place in China and Mexico
where labor costs are cheaper.
Thanks for the non-sequitur, Bob. Somehow I have come to expect that from
you. :O|
My point is that most loonytoonians produce nothing. They merely use
others in order to amass capital and then manipulate the markets to
get more capital.
Proof that you're a clueless whiner, Bob.
What have you produced lately,
$250K in sales. How about you?
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
13 Apr 2006 07:48:01 AM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:200r3255kj9cupb87cv6ipbm0rip7omshf@4ax.com...
My point is that most loonytoonians produce nothing. They merely use
others in order to amass capital and then manipulate the markets to
get more capital.
Proof that you're a clueless whiner, Bob.
What have you produced lately,
$250K in sales. How about you?
I did not ask what you SOLD. I asked what you PRODUCED.
lojbab
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
13 Apr 2006 01:11:07 PM |
|
|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:s6fs32lub5ae1f7j8190rrql2q3pn65uge@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:200r3255kj9cupb87cv6ipbm0rip7omshf@4ax.com...
My point is that most loonytoonians produce nothing. They merely use
others in order to amass capital and then manipulate the markets to
get more capital.
Proof that you're a clueless whiner, Bob.
What have you produced lately,
$250K in sales. How about you?
I did not ask what you SOLD. I asked what you PRODUCED.
I produced a modified design for a piece of manufacturing equipment, and a
couple of jobs for people to do the work. The sales indicate that others see
the value in it. Sorry reality pisses you off so much.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Secret Squirrel" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
15 Apr 2006 02:39:07 PM |
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:1417a$443e93b1$45035f0d$21336@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:s6fs32lub5ae1f7j8190rrql2q3pn65uge@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:200r3255kj9cupb87cv6ipbm0rip7omshf@4ax.com...
My point is that most loonytoonians produce nothing.
They merely use others in order to amass capital and
then manipulate the markets to get more capital.
Proof that you're a clueless whiner, Bob.
What have you produced lately,
$250K in sales. How about you?
I did not ask what you SOLD. I asked what you PRODUCED.
I produced a modified design for a piece of manufacturing
equipment, and a couple of jobs for people to do the work.
The sales indicate that others see the value in it. Sorry
reality pisses you off so much.
And did you construct all of said pieces of equipment yourself?
Secret Squirrel
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.
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|
|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
15 Apr 2006 03:18:38 PM |
|
|
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in message
news:PLQESDHX38822.6104976852@anonymous.poster...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:1417a$443e93b1$45035f0d$21336@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:s6fs32lub5ae1f7j8190rrql2q3pn65uge@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:200r3255kj9cupb87cv6ipbm0rip7omshf@4ax.com...
My point is that most loonytoonians produce nothing.
They merely use others in order to amass capital and
then manipulate the markets to get more capital.
Proof that you're a clueless whiner, Bob.
What have you produced lately,
$250K in sales. How about you?
I did not ask what you SOLD. I asked what you PRODUCED.
I produced a modified design for a piece of manufacturing
equipment, and a couple of jobs for people to do the work.
The sales indicate that others see the value in it. Sorry
reality pisses you off so much.
And did you construct all of said pieces of equipment yourself?
No, and if you want to start into your Marxist "labor theory of value", tell
me how the contractors who assembled with would know what to do without a
design?
.
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|
|
| User: "Secret Squirrel" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
17 Apr 2006 06:12:11 PM |
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:e1999$4441548b$45035f0d$12566@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in
message news:PLQESDHX38822.6104976852@anonymous.poster...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:1417a$443e93b1$45035f0d$21336@msgid.meganewsservers.co
I produced a modified design for a piece of
manufacturing equipment, and a couple of jobs for people
to do the work. The sales indicate that others see the
value in it. Sorry reality pisses you off so much.
And did you construct all of said pieces of equipment
yourself?
No, and if you want to start into your Marxist "labor
theory of value", tell me how the contractors who assembled
with would know what to do without a design?
Perhaps the same way you would have assembled it without
them? (Yet you omit them in your calculus of value creation).
And, the irony is, the fact is that replicating what the
factory workers do in producing your design may in fact
be a bigger obstacle in a competitor's trying to replicate
your product than what *you* did. There are a number of
areas I'm aware of personally where the outright copying
of a product presents no legal difficulties, because either
the patent has expired or that the country in question (like
China) does not try to protect US patents. But then the
competitor finds out that actually making the product--even
with your design in hand--is no piece of cake. His factory
workers don't have the experience, or the training, or the
education, to make decent product, and fail. It happens all
the time.
If you actually had experience in really making things,
this fact would be manifestly true to you.
Secret Squirrel
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.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
18 Apr 2006 01:39:57 AM |
|
|
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in message
news:Y0Z4DB6V38824.7584606481@anonymous.poster...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:e1999$4441548b$45035f0d$12566@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in
message news:PLQESDHX38822.6104976852@anonymous.poster...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:1417a$443e93b1$45035f0d$21336@msgid.meganewsservers.co
I produced a modified design for a piece of
manufacturing equipment, and a couple of jobs for people
to do the work. The sales indicate that others see the
value in it. Sorry reality pisses you off so much.
And did you construct all of said pieces of equipment
yourself?
No, and if you want to start into your Marxist "labor
theory of value", tell me how the contractors who assembled
with would know what to do without a design?
Perhaps the same way you would have assembled it without
them? (Yet you omit them in your calculus of value creation).
Were where they omitted? They were paid for their contribution, but they
simply alone could not have come up with the necessary changes. To suggest
otherwise is to place no value on education, experience, enterpreneurial,
managerial, or intellectual skills.
And, the irony is, the fact is that replicating what the
factory workers do in producing your design may in fact
be a bigger obstacle in a competitor's trying to replicate
your product than what *you* did. There are a number of
areas I'm aware of personally where the outright copying
of a product presents no legal difficulties, because either
the patent has expired or that the country in question (like
China) does not try to protect US patents. But then the
competitor finds out that actually making the product--even
with your design in hand--is no piece of cake. His factory
workers don't have the experience, or the training, or the
education, to make decent product, and fail. It happens all
the time.
If you actually had experience in really making things,
this fact would be manifestly true to you.
What's manifestly obvious is that you have adopted the old military credo
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with *****" as
your modus operandi. :O|
.
|
|
|
| User: "Secret Squirrel" |
|
| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
18 Apr 2006 09:20:35 AM |
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:9b7f1$44448925$45035f0d$32542@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in
message news:Y0Z4DB6V38824.7584606481@anonymous.poster...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:e1999$4441548b$45035f0d$12566@msgid.meganewsservers.co
m:
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote
in message
news:PLQESDHX38822.6104976852@anonymous.poster...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote
in
news:1417a$443e93b1$45035f0d$21336@msgid.meganewsservers
.co
I produced a modified design for a piece of
manufacturing equipment, and a couple of jobs for
people to do the work. The sales indicate that others
see the value in it. Sorry reality pisses you off so
much.
And did you construct all of said pieces of equipment
yourself?
No, and if you want to start into your Marxist "labor
theory of value", tell me how the contractors who
assembled with would know what to do without a design?
Perhaps the same way you would have assembled it without
them? (Yet you omit them in your calculus of value
creation).
Were where they omitted?
Sure seems like it to me. To quote (emphasis mine):
*I* produced a modified design for a piece of
manufacturing equipment, and a couple of jobs for
people to do the work. The sales indicate that others
see the value in it. Sorry reality pisses you off so
much.
Where are those "little people" mentioned in the above?
Why didn't you say "we" instead of "I"?
They were paid for their contribution,
but they simply alone could not have come up
with the necessary changes. To suggest otherwise is to
place no value on education, experience, enterpreneurial,
managerial, or intellectual skills.
Who says I am? But you're omitting their skills as well.
In fact, as I said below, and which you had no real
response, their skills might be more of an obstacle to
a competitor replicating your design than yours.
"Sorry if reality pisses you off so much".
And, the irony is, the fact is that replicating what the
factory workers do in producing your design may in fact
be a bigger obstacle in a competitor's trying to replicate
your product than what *you* did. There are a number of
areas I'm aware of personally where the outright copying
of a product presents no legal difficulties, because
either the patent has expired or that the country in
question (like China) does not try to protect US patents.
But then the competitor finds out that actually making the
product--even with your design in hand--is no piece of
cake. His factory workers don't have the experience, or
the training, or the education, to make decent product,
and fail. It happens all the time.
If you actually had experience in really making things,
this fact would be manifestly true to you.
What's manifestly obvious is that you have adopted the old
military credo "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance,
baffle them with *****" as your modus operandi. :O|
Heh. If that's "*****", then many an engineer has to
learn "*****" at some time or another in his career--the
sooner the better. Successful *productive* organizations
foster teamwork or suffer, and to foster teamwork you drop
the "me me me me me" self-promotion crapola.
Secret Squirrel
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Nonsense in Usenet Is Showing How Clueless Liberals Really Are |
27 Apr 2006 06:23:17 AM |
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Stan de SD wrote:
"Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in message
news:PLQESDHX38822.6104976852@anonymous.poster...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote in
news:1417a$443e93b1$45035f0d$21336@msgid.meganewsservers.com:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:s6fs32lub5ae1f7j8190rrql2q3pn65uge@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:200r3255kj9cupb87cv6ipbm0rip7omshf@4ax.com...
My point is that most loonytoonians produce nothing.
They merely use others in order to amass capital and
then manipulate the markets to get more capital.
Proof that you're a clueless whiner, Bob.
What have you produced lately,
$250K in sales. How about you?
I did not ask what you SOLD. I asked what you PRODUCED.
I produced a modified design for a piece of manufacturing
equipment, and a couple of jobs for people to do the work.
The sales indicate that others see the value in it. Sorry
reality pisses you off so much.
And did you construct all of said pieces of equipment yourself?
No, and if you want to start into your Marxist "labor theory of value", tell
me how the contractors who assembled with would know what to do without a
design?
And what produces the design? Oops, it's labor (thinking, which costs
calories, and handiwork to make blueprints, or to cause the cad/cam
system to draw the blueprint).
Or is the secret purpose of "intelligent design" to put world Labor in
its place, by persuading people that ultimately, the "design" of the
Boeing 747, for example, was given unto Moses, and all the working
engineers did was labor?
Seriously, Stanley-poo, you cannot have it both ways. Labor isn't what
working people do, it's what anyone (even a CEO, once in a blue moon)
does when he engages the world and modifies it, seeing his humanity
thereupon reflected. As such it is the ONLY source of value because
even hunting and gathering requires (d'oh) that you get up and hunt and
gather.
There is NO other source of value. Insofar as MANAGERS claim to have
brilliant ideas, for which they should receive gigabucks, and insofar
as those ideas are truly brilliant, they have to be communicable. Their
invention therefore takes place in the world and CANNOT be separated
from their being written down, patented and marketed.
Managers claim, in American society, to be pure makers of concepts and
ideas while they play golf, or imbibe martinis at lunch time, or
scratch their ***** on the job. What actually happens in most cases is
that the manager merely passes ideas along as one would pass water: he
talks to Joe in accounting and tells Jane in engineering about the use
of Excel not only for accounting but also in engineering. Insofar as
our boy has had a brain fart at all, it is seeing that Excel can be
used for number-crunching outside of accounting, yet, the manager's
contribution is wildly exagerrated in many cases merely to damp down
claims by Joe and Jane.
J. K. Galbraith calls this "innocent fraud". Basically, a CEO pay
multiple past a rough order of magnitude is unfair, yet part of the
actual work of society, in addition to doing accounting and
engineering, is the *management* of unfairness; in Drucker,
*management* is getting results in a society of (1) scarcity and (2)
inequality.
Thus management necessarily includes a bootstrap operation in which
very little of a manager's time is spent on creative thinking (he hires
people to do that) and the rest is spent in reconciling the employees
to the fact of nonownership of the tools of production: what Galbraith
calls an innocent, and what Drucker may feel a necessary, fraud.
The task of management includes a continual need to keep people
persuaded of its necessity and justice. It's like traditional symphony
orchestra conducting, strictly speaking unnecessary, but "nice work if
you can get it": you wave your arms in front of trained and talented
musicians in time to what they are playing, you get chicks, what's not
to like: but insofar as you actually add to the musicianship of the
symphony orchestra, you are not a "manager" - conductor, you are
instead a team member charged with making sure, materially, that the
instruments play together (and, in actual symphonies, the first
violinist can do this if you show up smashed on the job).
Since people are simply not good enough to be socialist, this seems to
be the best we can do: a society of grab-***** in which we say things
that aren't on the level because work has to get done.
But what we DON'T do is waste bandwidth as does Stan the man here
telling other people that rich people are oppressed and that this is
the best of all possible worlds, especially because odds are that Stan
the man isn't a rich person, instead someone with the strange mission
of forging his own chains.
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