Sociology > Education > Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan.
| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Cary Kittrell" |
| Date: |
13 Dec 2007 02:53:57 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
In article <b13c536d-8f26-45d3-8ac6-be24875b9cb0@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> skyeyes <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> writes:
On Dec 12, 6:57 pm, ":-)" <x...@gobot.com> wrote:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
Odd, then, that Jesus clearly said you are hell-bound if you turn your
back on those suffering in this world, isn't it?
The way I see it Cary, it's people who have hardened their hearts
against God who are hell bound.
I believe this includes people hardening their hearts against their
fellow humans, who are made in the image of God. People who harden
their hearts towards God become spiritually dead. The Bible speaks of
a first death and a second death. It's my belief that the first death
is the death of the body that all of us will experience, and the
second death is the death of the soul. I don't believe that the soul
can exist without being connected to God. I believe that those who
have purposefully hardened their hearts against God, and become
spiritually dead have a soul that's like a corpse, and the corpse ends
up getting cremated. Matthew 10:28 Jesus says "Do not be afraid of
those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of
the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." This makes me
think that like the body, the soul can die and that it is
destructible. That a dead soul gets cremated the same as a dead body.
This is the way that I at this point in time determine it to be.
In my opinion, as for deciding if a person is or isn't going to end up
permanently spiritually dead; only God and that person can know this.
A lot of people in their last few hours, reach out to God finally
without anyone but that person and God knowing what has taken place. I
personally wouldn't want to put myself in the position of passing the
kind of judgment on someone, that God will someday make from his
throne, as to what their personal connection was with God at the very
end of their earthly life.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
to the Father except through me." John 14:6
You know, it would be really, really nice if, just for *once*, one of
you mewling christians would provide some objective evidence - you
know, *data* - that such a thing as "god" actually exists. When
you're done doing that, please provide evidence that there's such a
thing as a "soul," and then you can go on to provide evidence that
there's an afterlife.
Unless and until you can do that, you need to stay the hell out of
alt.atheism.
Brenda "Ex-born-again christian" Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Ex-? But according to Ken Clifton, whom you might have encountered
whenever there's inter-dimensional leakeage between `alt.atheism'
and `alt.education', the deal is once-saved, always-saved. Which
means that you -- and I, come to think of it -- are doomed. We're
heaven-bound, no matter how we might wish it otherwise. See ya
there, Babe.
On the other hand, I must note that not only has Ken Clifton
posted for several days, in addition our local 24/7/365 salvation channel
down here where you and I live is suddenly off the air. Coincidence?
Hard to say. I mean, Andrew Chung is still around, but that doesn't
tell us anything one way or the other.
I suppose the only thing for it is to follow Garrison Keillor's
lead and call around and see if there are any Universalist-Unitarians
still around. If there are, then this has been a false rapture alert.
-- cary
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
14 Dec 2007 04:09:08 AM |
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In article
<b13c536d-8f26-45d3-8ac6-be24875b9cb0@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> skyeyes
<skyeyes@dakotacom.net> writes:
On Dec 12, 6:57 pm, ":-)" <x...@gobot.com> wrote:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
Odd, then, that Jesus clearly said you are hell-bound if you turn your
back on those suffering in this world, isn't it?
The way I see it Cary, it's people who have hardened their hearts
against God who are hell bound.
I believe this includes people hardening their hearts against their
fellow humans, who are made in the image of God. People who harden
their hearts towards God become spiritually dead. The Bible speaks of
a first death and a second death. It's my belief that the first death
is the death of the body that all of us will experience, and the
second death is the death of the soul. I don't believe that the soul
can exist without being connected to God. I believe that those who
have purposefully hardened their hearts against God, and become
spiritually dead have a soul that's like a corpse, and the corpse ends
up getting cremated. Matthew 10:28 Jesus says "Do not be afraid of
those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of
the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." This makes me
think that like the body, the soul can die and that it is
destructible. That a dead soul gets cremated the same as a dead body.
This is the way that I at this point in time determine it to be.
In my opinion, as for deciding if a person is or isn't going to end up
permanently spiritually dead; only God and that person can know this.
A lot of people in their last few hours, reach out to God finally
without anyone but that person and God knowing what has taken place. I
personally wouldn't want to put myself in the position of passing the
kind of judgment on someone, that God will someday make from his
throne, as to what their personal connection was with God at the very
end of their earthly life.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
to the Father except through me." John 14:6
You know, it would be really, really nice if, just for *once*, one of
you mewling christians would provide some objective evidence - you
know, *data* - that such a thing as "god" actually exists. When
you're done doing that, please provide evidence that there's such a
thing as a "soul," and then you can go on to provide evidence that
there's an afterlife.
Unless and until you can do that, you need to stay the hell out of
alt.atheism.
Brenda "Ex-born-again christian" Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
You want evidence? There is lots of evidence to be found, it all depends
on your definition of the word "God". See below
Pastor Frank
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
Jesus Christ giving His life for us sinners on the cross of Calvary. We
therefore know our God and have seen Him. (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
Atheists don't know our God and therefore cannot see Him, (Jesus in
John 3:3) and no, we won't send you all our money as "objective, verifiable
evidence", to prove our love for you. That's what you are after, aren't you?
You will just have to believe us, that we answer your posts because we
love you in the Lord and that this loving action evidences our God, whose
essence is that very love and care we show others.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
14 Dec 2007 04:40:15 PM |
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In article <b565f0d0-a415-42ad-937b-42329a4ffe5b@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 13, 2:53 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <b13c536d-8f26-45d3-8ac6-be24875b9...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> skyeyes <skye...@dakotacom.net> writes:
On Dec 12, 6:57 pm, ":-)" <x...@gobot.com> wrote:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
Odd, then, that Jesus clearly said you are hell-bound if you turn your
back on those suffering in this world, isn't it?
The way I see it Cary, it's people who have hardened their hearts
against God who are hell bound.
I believe this includes people hardening their hearts against their
fellow humans, who are made in the image of God. People who harden
their hearts towards God become spiritually dead. The Bible speaks of
a first death and a second death. It's my belief that the first death
is the death of the body that all of us will experience, and the
second death is the death of the soul. I don't believe that the soul
can exist without being connected to God. I believe that those who
have purposefully hardened their hearts against God, and become
spiritually dead have a soul that's like a corpse, and the corpse ends
up getting cremated. Matthew 10:28 Jesus says "Do not be afraid of
those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of
the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." This makes me
think that like the body, the soul can die and that it is
destructible. That a dead soul gets cremated the same as a dead body.
This is the way that I at this point in time determine it to be.
In my opinion, as for deciding if a person is or isn't going to end up
permanently spiritually dead; only God and that person can know this.
A lot of people in their last few hours, reach out to God finally
without anyone but that person and God knowing what has taken place. I
personally wouldn't want to put myself in the position of passing the
kind of judgment on someone, that God will someday make from his
throne, as to what their personal connection was with God at the very
end of their earthly life.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
to the Father except through me." John 14:6
You know, it would be really, really nice if, just for *once*, one of
you mewling christians would provide some objective evidence - you
know, *data* - that such a thing as "god" actually exists. When
you're done doing that, please provide evidence that there's such a
thing as a "soul," and then you can go on to provide evidence that
there's an afterlife.
Unless and until you can do that, you need to stay the hell out of
alt.atheism.
Brenda "Ex-born-again christian" Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Ex-? But according to Ken Clifton, whom you might have encountered
whenever there's inter-dimensional leakeage between `alt.atheism'
and `alt.education', the deal is once-saved, always-saved. Which
means that you -- and I, come to think of it -- are doomed. We're
heaven-bound, no matter how we might wish it otherwise. See ya
there, Babe.
Indeed. If you have ever truly submitted to God's plan for salvation
and asked God to save you through Jesus, I do believe that God's word
is true...you will be there (maybe not as rewarded as others but
present), since it is not by works we are saved, before or after
accepting the blood of Christ.
Well, then, I suppose I'd best learn a few things about
the ground rules up there, then.
For example: do people in heaven still sin? If so, what
happens to them subsequently?
And if they do not sin, ever...well, what's the deal
with that? Does God take away our free will at
the door? SOMETHING must have changed, or else
we'd see Christians down here who -- day in and day out,
year after year after year -- never commit a single sin.
And frankly I would be a bit skeptical of that.
-- cary
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
17 Dec 2007 10:52:28 AM |
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In article <d6eee4d8-55c9-466e-b78f-7627b8583ae5@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 14, 4:40 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <b565f0d0-a415-42ad-937b-42329a4ff...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 13, 2:53 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <b13c536d-8f26-45d3-8ac6-be24875b9...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> skyeyes <skye...@dakotacom.net> writes:
On Dec 12, 6:57 pm, ":-)" <x...@gobot.com> wrote:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
Odd, then, that Jesus clearly said you are hell-bound if you turn your
back on those suffering in this world, isn't it?
The way I see it Cary, it's people who have hardened their hearts
against God who are hell bound.
I believe this includes people hardening their hearts against their
fellow humans, who are made in the image of God. People who harden
their hearts towards God become spiritually dead. The Bible speaks of
a first death and a second death. It's my belief that the first death
is the death of the body that all of us will experience, and the
second death is the death of the soul. I don't believe that the soul
can exist without being connected to God. I believe that those who
have purposefully hardened their hearts against God, and become
spiritually dead have a soul that's like a corpse, and the corpse ends
up getting cremated. Matthew 10:28 Jesus says "Do not be afraid of
those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of
the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." This makes me
think that like the body, the soul can die and that it is
destructible. That a dead soul gets cremated the same as a dead body.
This is the way that I at this point in time determine it to be.
In my opinion, as for deciding if a person is or isn't going to end up
permanently spiritually dead; only God and that person can know this.
A lot of people in their last few hours, reach out to God finally
without anyone but that person and God knowing what has taken place. I
personally wouldn't want to put myself in the position of passing the
kind of judgment on someone, that God will someday make from his
throne, as to what their personal connection was with God at the very
end of their earthly life.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
to the Father except through me." John 14:6
You know, it would be really, really nice if, just for *once*, one of
you mewling christians would provide some objective evidence - you
know, *data* - that such a thing as "god" actually exists. When
you're done doing that, please provide evidence that there's such a
thing as a "soul," and then you can go on to provide evidence that
there's an afterlife.
Unless and until you can do that, you need to stay the hell out of
alt.atheism.
Brenda "Ex-born-again christian" Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Ex-? But according to Ken Clifton, whom you might have encountered
whenever there's inter-dimensional leakeage between `alt.atheism'
and `alt.education', the deal is once-saved, always-saved. Which
means that you -- and I, come to think of it -- are doomed. We're
heaven-bound, no matter how we might wish it otherwise. See ya
there, Babe.
Indeed. If you have ever truly submitted to God's plan for salvation
and asked God to save you through Jesus, I do believe that God's word
is true...you will be there (maybe not as rewarded as others but
present), since it is not by works we are saved, before or after
accepting the blood of Christ.
Well, then, I suppose I'd best learn a few things about
the ground rules up there, then.
For example: do people in heaven still sin? If so, what
happens to them subsequently?
And if they do not sin, ever...well, what's the deal
with that? Does God take away our free will at
the door? SOMETHING must have changed, or else
we'd see Christians down here who -- day in and day out,
year after year after year -- never commit a single sin.
And frankly I would be a bit skeptical of that.
-- cary
Ever saw the fly? Imagine having all of the rebellious sin-infection
lifted from you to be the person you are underneath. If there ever
was a heart that accepted Christ, it is crying out still. If there
was a faith that chose Him, it still believes..under all the doubt.
Once that other stuff is lifted, YOU will remain. Or, when we remove
addition from a drug addict, do you believe we have changed who they
are as a person?
And that being the case, why do Christians continue to commit sins?
-- cary
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
18 Dec 2007 10:38:18 AM |
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In article <143df14d-7a4f-4e5f-99bc-d1dda714c03c@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 17, 10:52 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <d6eee4d8-55c9-466e-b78f-7627b8583...@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 14, 4:40 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <b565f0d0-a415-42ad-937b-42329a4ff...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 13, 2:53 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <b13c536d-8f26-45d3-8ac6-be24875b9...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> skyeyes <skye...@dakotacom.net> writes:
On Dec 12, 6:57 pm, ":-)" <x...@gobot.com> wrote:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
Odd, then, that Jesus clearly said you are hell-bound if you turn your
back on those suffering in this world, isn't it?
The way I see it Cary, it's people who have hardened their hearts
against God who are hell bound.
I believe this includes people hardening their hearts against their
fellow humans, who are made in the image of God. People who harden
their hearts towards God become spiritually dead. The Bible speaks of
a first death and a second death. It's my belief that the first death
is the death of the body that all of us will experience, and the
second death is the death of the soul. I don't believe that the soul
can exist without being connected to God. I believe that those who
have purposefully hardened their hearts against God, and become
spiritually dead have a soul that's like a corpse, and the corpse ends
up getting cremated. Matthew 10:28 Jesus says "Do not be afraid of
those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of
the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." This makes me
think that like the body, the soul can die and that it is
destructible. That a dead soul gets cremated the same as a dead body.
This is the way that I at this point in time determine it to be.
In my opinion, as for deciding if a person is or isn't going to end up
permanently spiritually dead; only God and that person can know this.
A lot of people in their last few hours, reach out to God finally
without anyone but that person and God knowing what has taken place. I
personally wouldn't want to put myself in the position of passing the
kind of judgment on someone, that God will someday make from his
throne, as to what their personal connection was with God at the very
end of their earthly life.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
to the Father except through me." John 14:6
You know, it would be really, really nice if, just for *once*, one of
you mewling christians would provide some objective evidence - you
know, *data* - that such a thing as "god" actually exists. When
you're done doing that, please provide evidence that there's such a
thing as a "soul," and then you can go on to provide evidence that
there's an afterlife.
Unless and until you can do that, you need to stay the hell out of
alt.atheism.
Brenda "Ex-born-again christian" Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Ex-? But according to Ken Clifton, whom you might have encountered
whenever there's inter-dimensional leakeage between `alt.atheism'
and `alt.education', the deal is once-saved, always-saved. Which
means that you -- and I, come to think of it -- are doomed. We're
heaven-bound, no matter how we might wish it otherwise. See ya
there, Babe.
Indeed. If you have ever truly submitted to God's plan for salvation
and asked God to save you through Jesus, I do believe that God's word
is true...you will be there (maybe not as rewarded as others but
present), since it is not by works we are saved, before or after
accepting the blood of Christ.
Well, then, I suppose I'd best learn a few things about
the ground rules up there, then.
For example: do people in heaven still sin? If so, what
happens to them subsequently?
And if they do not sin, ever...well, what's the deal
with that? Does God take away our free will at
the door? SOMETHING must have changed, or else
we'd see Christians down here who -- day in and day out,
year after year after year -- never commit a single sin.
And frankly I would be a bit skeptical of that.
-- cary
Ever saw the fly? Imagine having all of the rebellious sin-infection
lifted from you to be the person you are underneath. If there ever
was a heart that accepted Christ, it is crying out still. If there
was a faith that chose Him, it still believes..under all the doubt.
Once that other stuff is lifted, YOU will remain. Or, when we remove
addition from a drug addict, do you believe we have changed who they
are as a person?
And that being the case, why do Christians continue to commit sins?
-- cary
God didn't say Christian, on earth, would be cleansed immediately of
their sinful nature, only empowered to overcome it, if they chose to
try. Even Paul, at the end of his life, said he was still sinning
(doing things he wished not to do). It's not about works on Earth.
It's about a covering for your sins.
But once in heaven, God will -- POOF!!! -- magically remove
your "sinful nature", revealing your underlying true self?
Right off the top of my head, that provokes three questions:
1) What is your scriptural basis for this?
2) How is this any different from my picture of
God's removing your free will at that point? Are
you saying that it is not by our own free will that
we choose to sin? And if is not by our own free
will that we choose to sin, how dare your God
punish us for it?
3) Why do you think that "the person you are underneath"
is your true self, but that the "sin-infected" nature is
not also your true self? And if your rebellious nature
was not actually a part of your true self, then what
possible justification can you give for God punishing
people for that non-self aspect of their being?
-- cary
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
18 Dec 2007 04:51:17 PM |
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In article <20c20de0-61ba-4f6d-b75d-197c919bf3fa@o42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
Cary, the most agonizingly painful part of discussing things with you
is your inability to remember things for even a few days. I've
answered most of this before. So, if you are not being intentionally
being deceptive, I'd suggest a CAT scan. See below...
On Dec 18, 10:38 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
God didn't say Christian, on earth, would be cleansed immediately of
their sinful nature, only empowered to overcome it, if they chose to
try. Even Paul, at the end of his life, said he was still sinning
(doing things he wished not to do). It's not about works on Earth.
It's about a covering for your sins.
But once in heaven, God will -- POOF!!! -- magically remove
your "sinful nature", revealing your underlying true self?
Right off the top of my head, that provokes three questions:
1) What is your scriptural basis for this?
Well..just one verse...
1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he
that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
"and the lust thereof"
Hmmm....interesting. And the very next verse, written some 2000
years ago, says that "this is the last hour".
Did I miss a memo?
2) How is this any different from my picture of
God's removing your free will at that point? Are
you saying that it is not by our own free will that
we choose to sin? And if is not by our own free
will that we choose to sin, how dare your God
punish us for it?
It is by our corrupt will that we sin, and it will be by our cleansed
will that we will not.
Ah, so God CHANGES our will for us.
That pretty much shoots down the concept of "free will" right
there, if God goes stickings overrides and bypasses in it.
3) Why do you think that "the person you are underneath"
is your true self, but that the "sin-infected" nature is
not also your true self? And if your rebellious nature
was not actually a part of your true self, then what
possible justification can you give for God punishing
people for that non-self aspect of their being?
This is the part that we've been through before. Do you believe in
genetic defects being passed down in the lines of those that do drugs
or have sex with siblings or such?
I believe that this is not prima facie impossible. And I know -- as you
likely do not -- that nothing of the sort has been conclusively shown,
to date. But yes, there is nothing intrinsically impossible about
the idea.
Would it be the fault of God that
they have these defects or the fault of the sinful parents...
Oh, hey, that's an easy one: God. The parents did not
design the system that propagates defects, God did.
the
parents, of course. Thus, when Adam and Eve sinned, it is entirely
plausable that their desire to sin would be passed down (like the
children of addicts being more prone to addictions).
Not if the Designer had the simplest concept of what a software
engineer would term Fault Tolerance, it wouldn't.
Shoddy engineering. Very, very shoddy. Humans routinely do better.
This is what the
church calls ORIGINAL SIN. Man has a genetic flaw of temptation to
sin, passed down from all of their parents. This flaw is is "the
flesh" that is rebuked by Paul and other church leaders.
Well, he should have addressed his complaints to the original
designer. One would assume that an omniscient and omnipotent
engineer could have seen that coming, and designed around it --
thus preventing His finding Himself in the ethically
untennable position of blaming one product for faults arising
in another product.
And...to the
point of this discussion...so long as we are in this infected body,
we'll have this temptation and lust. Yet, when we are reborn in new
bodies (free of the infection), the lusts of the world will be gone,
too. Got it?
Yeppers. I also get it that if God can do that, then He is
grievously culpable for not having done it the first time around,
and thus having avoided condemning millions of souls to
needless eternal torment.
-- cary
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
19 Dec 2007 10:26:29 AM |
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In article <f63dad00-e60c-48f2-974a-bcdd06f59ab4@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Dec 18, 4:51 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <20c20de0-61ba-4f6d-b75d-197c919bf...@o42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
Cary, the most agonizingly painful part of discussing things with you
is your inability to remember things for even a few days. I've
answered most of this before. So, if you are not being intentionally
being deceptive, I'd suggest a CAT scan. See below...
On Dec 18, 10:38 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
God didn't say Christian, on earth, would be cleansed immediately of
their sinful nature, only empowered to overcome it, if they chose to
try. Even Paul, at the end of his life, said he was still sinning
(doing things he wished not to do). It's not about works on Earth.
It's about a covering for your sins.
But once in heaven, God will -- POOF!!! -- magically remove
your "sinful nature", revealing your underlying true self?
Right off the top of my head, that provokes three questions:
1) What is your scriptural basis for this?
Well..just one verse...
1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he
that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
"and the lust thereof"
Hmmm....interesting. And the very next verse, written some 2000
years ago, says that "this is the last hour".
Did I miss a memo?
2) How is this any different from my picture of
God's removing your free will at that point? Are
you saying that it is not by our own free will that
we choose to sin? And if is not by our own free
will that we choose to sin, how dare your God
punish us for it?
It is by our corrupt will that we sin, and it will be by our cleansed
will that we will not.
Ah, so God CHANGES our will for us.
That pretty much shoots down the concept of "free will" right
there, if God goes stickings overrides and bypasses in it.
3) Why do you think that "the person you are underneath"
is your true self, but that the "sin-infected" nature is
not also your true self? And if your rebellious nature
was not actually a part of your true self, then what
possible justification can you give for God punishing
people for that non-self aspect of their being?
This is the part that we've been through before. Do you believe in
genetic defects being passed down in the lines of those that do drugs
or have sex with siblings or such?
I believe that this is not prima facie impossible. And I know -- as you
likely do not -- that nothing of the sort has been conclusively shown,
to date. But yes, there is nothing intrinsically impossible about
the idea.
Would it be the fault of God that
they have these defects or the fault of the sinful parents...
Oh, hey, that's an easy one: God. The parents did not
design the system that propagates defects, God did.
the
parents, of course. Thus, when Adam and Eve sinned, it is entirely
plausable that their desire to sin would be passed down (like the
children of addicts being more prone to addictions).
Not if the Designer had the simplest concept of what a software
engineer would term Fault Tolerance, it wouldn't.
Shoddy engineering. Very, very shoddy. Humans routinely do better.
This is what the
church calls ORIGINAL SIN. Man has a genetic flaw of temptation to
sin, passed down from all of their parents. This flaw is is "the
flesh" that is rebuked by Paul and other church leaders.
Well, he should have addressed his complaints to the original
designer. One would assume that an omniscient and omnipotent
engineer could have seen that coming, and designed around it --
thus preventing His finding Himself in the ethically
untennable position of blaming one product for faults arising
in another product.
And...to the
point of this discussion...so long as we are in this infected body,
we'll have this temptation and lust. Yet, when we are reborn in new
bodies (free of the infection), the lusts of the world will be gone,
too. Got it?
Yeppers. I also get it that if God can do that, then He is
grievously culpable for not having done it the first time around,
and thus having avoided condemning millions of souls to
needless eternal torment.
-- cary
Yeah, how horrible for God to not free the unrepentant rebel from
their prison sentence...
<sigh...>
Let's see if I can summarize the discussion to date so cleanly
and simply that even you can follow what is actually being
said, shall we? Now, TRY, dammit, OK? Ready? Here we go:
1) I ask what happens in heaven; do people continue to sin?
And if not, how is it possible that we both have free will
and do not sin?
2) You tell me that somehow our "sin nature" will be stripped,
away, leaving us with some sort of underlying, truer spirit
which no longer has the inclination -- or apparently, even the
ability -- to sin. Do I have that right?
3) I then ask you if it's the case that God can do that, then
why didn't He do that in the first place, creating us
with that perfect disinclination to sin the from the get-go --
thus avoiding the rather unpleasant spectacle of a Father
subjecting His children to unbearable torture for ever and
ever and ever and ever and ever?
OK? Now shall we take it from there? S l o o o w l y ?
-- cary
you're ready to free all worldly criminals
from jails (even those that are unrepentant) and set them free on
society, right?
I guess we can expect to see (in your Heaven) Hitler
and Satan residing right next to you and your family, right?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
20 Dec 2007 11:35:03 AM |
|
|
In article <e248745d-e0dc-4a92-b24b-759198140c86@e67g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 19, 10:26 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <f63dad00-e60c-48f2-974a-bcdd06f59...@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Dec 18, 4:51 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <20c20de0-61ba-4f6d-b75d-197c919bf...@o42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
Cary, the most agonizingly painful part of discussing things with you
is your inability to remember things for even a few days. I've
answered most of this before. So, if you are not being intentionally
being deceptive, I'd suggest a CAT scan. See below...
On Dec 18, 10:38 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
God didn't say Christian, on earth, would be cleansed immediately of
their sinful nature, only empowered to overcome it, if they chose to
try. Even Paul, at the end of his life, said he was still sinning
(doing things he wished not to do). It's not about works on Earth.
It's about a covering for your sins.
But once in heaven, God will -- POOF!!! -- magically remove
your "sinful nature", revealing your underlying true self?
Right off the top of my head, that provokes three questions:
1) What is your scriptural basis for this?
Well..just one verse...
1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he
that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
"and the lust thereof"
Hmmm....interesting. And the very next verse, written some 2000
years ago, says that "this is the last hour".
Did I miss a memo?
2) How is this any different from my picture of
God's removing your free will at that point? Are
you saying that it is not by our own free will that
we choose to sin? And if is not by our own free
will that we choose to sin, how dare your God
punish us for it?
It is by our corrupt will that we sin, and it will be by our cleansed
will that we will not.
Ah, so God CHANGES our will for us.
That pretty much shoots down the concept of "free will" right
there, if God goes stickings overrides and bypasses in it.
3) Why do you think that "the person you are underneath"
is your true self, but that the "sin-infected" nature is
not also your true self? And if your rebellious nature
was not actually a part of your true self, then what
possible justification can you give for God punishing
people for that non-self aspect of their being?
This is the part that we've been through before. Do you believe in
genetic defects being passed down in the lines of those that do drugs
or have sex with siblings or such?
I believe that this is not prima facie impossible. And I know -- as you
likely do not -- that nothing of the sort has been conclusively shown,
to date. But yes, there is nothing intrinsically impossible about
the idea.
Would it be the fault of God that
they have these defects or the fault of the sinful parents...
Oh, hey, that's an easy one: God. The parents did not
design the system that propagates defects, God did.
the
parents, of course. Thus, when Adam and Eve sinned, it is entirely
plausable that their desire to sin would be passed down (like the
children of addicts being more prone to addictions).
Not if the Designer had the simplest concept of what a software
engineer would term Fault Tolerance, it wouldn't.
Shoddy engineering. Very, very shoddy. Humans routinely do better.
This is what the
church calls ORIGINAL SIN. Man has a genetic flaw of temptation to
sin, passed down from all of their parents. This flaw is is "the
flesh" that is rebuked by Paul and other church leaders.
Well, he should have addressed his complaints to the original
designer. One would assume that an omniscient and omnipotent
engineer could have seen that coming, and designed around it --
thus preventing His finding Himself in the ethically
untennable position of blaming one product for faults arising
in another product.
And...to the
point of this discussion...so long as we are in this infected body,
we'll have this temptation and lust. Yet, when we are reborn in new
bodies (free of the infection), the lusts of the world will be gone,
too. Got it?
Yeppers. I also get it that if God can do that, then He is
grievously culpable for not having done it the first time around,
and thus having avoided condemning millions of souls to
needless eternal torment.
-- cary
Yeah, how horrible for God to not free the unrepentant rebel from
their prison sentence...
My comments ignored and clipped...noted.
Actually, I went on to elaborate on precisely how horrible God, your
version of, could be. Did you read it?
<sigh...>
Let's see if I can summarize the discussion to date so cleanly
and simply that even you can follow what is actually being
said, shall we? Now, TRY, dammit, OK? Ready? Here we go:
First off, you jumped into the middle of the discussion, as this
discussion started with my statement that Eternal Security is true, if
you have really submitted and believed in Christ at any time.
1) I ask what happens in heaven; do people continue to sin?
And if not, how is it possible that we both have free will
and do not sin?
2) You tell me that somehow our "sin nature" will be stripped,
away, leaving us with some sort of underlying, truer spirit
which no longer has the inclination -- or apparently, even the
ability -- to sin. Do I have that right?
WE don't have a sin nature. We have a sin infection, which is what I
said, if you took the time to read my words. Why not answer this
question that you, earlier left unanswered...
"Or, when we remove addition from a drug addict, do you believe we
have changed who they are as a person? "
What in the world does "removing" addition[sic] mean? Are we
talking brain chmistry, the reward center, shifts in neurotransmitter
and receptor populations. Or what?
If so, then yes: anything that changes the brain changes the
person. And none of is exactly the person we were a moment
ago anyway. All of us change, and that constantly.
3) I then ask you if it's the case that God can do that, then
why didn't He do that in the first place, creating us
with that perfect disinclination to sin the from the get-go --
thus avoiding the rather unpleasant spectacle of a Father
subjecting His children to unbearable torture for ever and
ever and ever and ever and ever?
He DID create us perfect. We were infected by the rebellion of Satan
among us. Without a Satan, we would still be in Heaven. There will
be no rebel in the future Heaven...thus, no sin infection. Got it?
Ah, The Devil Made Us Do It.
And God thoughtfully provided us with Satan, and the venue
in which Satan Made Us Do It?
Did He not see that one coming, or did He simply not care?
OK? Now shall we take it from there? S l o o o w l y ?
-- cary
you're ready to free all worldly criminals
from jails (even those that are unrepentant) and set them free on
society, right?
I guess we can expect to see (in your Heaven) Hitler
and Satan residing right next to you and your family, right?
Your refusal to answer this noted, as well.
That is coerrect: when you put words in my mouth, followed by
challenging me on things I didn't say, I do tend to ignore you.
-- cry
.
|
|
|
| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
20 Dec 2007 06:01:54 PM |
|
|
In article <36e6ee80-24c3-4e4f-bcf4-d11d0e468cfb@x29g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 20, 11:35 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <e248745d-e0dc-4a92-b24b-759198140...@e67g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 19, 10:26 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <f63dad00-e60c-48f2-974a-bcdd06f59...@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Dec 18, 4:51 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <20c20de0-61ba-4f6d-b75d-197c919bf...@o42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
Cary, the most agonizingly painful part of discussing things with you
is your inability to remember things for even a few days. I've
answered most of this before. So, if you are not being intentionally
being deceptive, I'd suggest a CAT scan. See below...
On Dec 18, 10:38 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
God didn't say Christian, on earth, would be cleansed immediately of
their sinful nature, only empowered to overcome it, if they chose to
try. Even Paul, at the end of his life, said he was still sinning
(doing things he wished not to do). It's not about works on Earth.
It's about a covering for your sins.
But once in heaven, God will -- POOF!!! -- magically remove
your "sinful nature", revealing your underlying true self?
Right off the top of my head, that provokes three questions:
1) What is your scriptural basis for this?
Well..just one verse...
1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he
that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
"and the lust thereof"
Hmmm....interesting. And the very next verse, written some 2000
years ago, says that "this is the last hour".
Did I miss a memo?
2) How is this any different from my picture of
God's removing your free will at that point? Are
you saying that it is not by our own free will that
we choose to sin? And if is not by our own free
will that we choose to sin, how dare your God
punish us for it?
It is by our corrupt will that we sin, and it will be by our cleansed
will that we will not.
Ah, so God CHANGES our will for us.
That pretty much shoots down the concept of "free will" right
there, if God goes stickings overrides and bypasses in it.
3) Why do you think that "the person you are underneath"
is your true self, but that the "sin-infected" nature is
not also your true self? And if your rebellious nature
was not actually a part of your true self, then what
possible justification can you give for God punishing
people for that non-self aspect of their being?
This is the part that we've been through before. Do you believe in
genetic defects being passed down in the lines of those that do drugs
or have sex with siblings or such?
I believe that this is not prima facie impossible. And I know -- as you
likely do not -- that nothing of the sort has been conclusively shown,
to date. But yes, there is nothing intrinsically impossible about
the idea.
Would it be the fault of God that
they have these defects or the fault of the sinful parents...
Oh, hey, that's an easy one: God. The parents did not
design the system that propagates defects, God did.
the
parents, of course. Thus, when Adam and Eve sinned, it is entirely
plausable that their desire to sin would be passed down (like the
children of addicts being more prone to addictions).
Not if the Designer had the simplest concept of what a software
engineer would term Fault Tolerance, it wouldn't.
Shoddy engineering. Very, very shoddy. Humans routinely do better.
This is what the
church calls ORIGINAL SIN. Man has a genetic flaw of temptation to
sin, passed down from all of their parents. This flaw is is "the
flesh" that is rebuked by Paul and other church leaders.
Well, he should have addressed his complaints to the original
designer. One would assume that an omniscient and omnipotent
engineer could have seen that coming, and designed around it --
thus preventing His finding Himself in the ethically
untennable position of blaming one product for faults arising
in another product.
And...to the
point of this discussion...so long as we are in this infected body,
we'll have this temptation and lust. Yet, when we are reborn in new
bodies (free of the infection), the lusts of the world will be gone,
too. Got it?
Yeppers. I also get it that if God can do that, then He is
grievously culpable for not having done it the first time around,
and thus having avoided condemning millions of souls to
needless eternal torment.
-- cary
Yeah, how horrible for God to not free the unrepentant rebel from
their prison sentence...
My comments ignored and clipped...noted.
Actually, I went on to elaborate on precisely how horrible God, your
version of, could be. Did you read it?
<sigh...>
Let's see if I can summarize the discussion to date so cleanly
and simply that even you can follow what is actually being
said, shall we? Now, TRY, dammit, OK? Ready? Here we go:
First off, you jumped into the middle of the discussion, as this
discussion started with my statement that Eternal Security is true, if
you have really submitted and believed in Christ at any time.
1) I ask what happens in heaven; do people continue to sin?
And if not, how is it possible that we both have free will
and do not sin?
2) You tell me that somehow our "sin nature" will be stripped,
away, leaving us with some sort of underlying, truer spirit
which no longer has the inclination -- or apparently, even the
ability -- to sin. Do I have that right?
WE don't have a sin nature. We have a sin infection, which is what I
said, if you took the time to read my words. Why not answer this
question that you, earlier left unanswered...
"Or, when we remove addition from a drug addict, do you believe we
have changed who they are as a person? "
What in the world does "removing" addition[sic] mean? Are we
talking brain chmistry, the reward center, shifts in neurotransmitter
and receptor populations. Or what?
If so, then yes: anything that changes the brain changes the
person. And none of is exactly the person we were a moment
ago anyway. All of us change, and that constantly.
3) I then ask you if it's the case that God can do that, then
why didn't He do that in the first place, creating us
with that perfect disinclination to sin the from the get-go --
thus avoiding the rather unpleasant spectacle of a Father
subjecting His children to unbearable torture for ever and
ever and ever and ever and ever?
He DID create us perfect. We were infected by the rebellion of Satan
among us. Without a Satan, we would still be in Heaven. There will
be no rebel in the future Heaven...thus, no sin infection. Got it?
Ah, The Devil Made Us Do It.
And God thoughtfully provided us with Satan, and the venue
in which Satan Made Us Do It?
Did He not see that one coming, or did He simply not care?
I refuse to be distracted on this point. The devil (who tempted Adam
and Eve into the sin infection) will not be in Heaven. Thus, I
answered your question about how we would be clean from the sin nature
in Heaven...correct?
In terms of your own particular theological beliefs, yes you did.
Of course you're the first theologican I've heard claim that Satan
is necessary for man to refuse to obey God.
That said, I still remain curious as to why you think God
set up the game the way He did in the first place.
(and incidentally, sometimes a serpent is just a serpent: nothing
in Genesis points to the serpent being Satan)
-- cary
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
20 Dec 2007 07:58:29 PM |
|
|
(Cary Kittrell) wrote:
(and incidentally, sometimes a serpent is just a serpent: nothing
in Genesis points to the serpent being Satan)
Kennie the Wonder Dog believes in taking the Bible literally except
when he want to see a non literal meaning, such as an allegory, or
even something totally concocted out of his mindlessness.
lojbab
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
21 Dec 2007 10:26:34 PM |
|
|
In article <3bb6a5c7-c5f3-4bc6-a7d5-c85a6c6ecf3e@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 20, 6:01 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <36e6ee80-24c3-4e4f-bcf4-d11d0e468...@x29g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 20, 11:35 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <e248745d-e0dc-4a92-b24b-759198140...@e67g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Dec 19, 10:26 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <f63dad00-e60c-48f2-974a-bcdd06f59...@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Dec 18, 4:51 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <20c20de0-61ba-4f6d-b75d-197c919bf...@o42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
Cary, the most agonizingly painful part of discussing things with you
is your inability to remember things for even a few days. I've
answered most of this before. So, if you are not being intentionally
being deceptive, I'd suggest a CAT scan. See below...
On Dec 18, 10:38 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
God didn't say Christian, on earth, would be cleansed immediately of
their sinful nature, only empowered to overcome it, if they chose to
try. Even Paul, at the end of his life, said he was still sinning
(doing things he wished not to do). It's not about works on Earth.
It's about a covering for your sins.
But once in heaven, God will -- POOF!!! -- magically remove
your "sinful nature", revealing your underlying true self?
Right off the top of my head, that provokes three questions:
1) What is your scriptural basis for this?
Well..just one verse...
1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he
that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
"and the lust thereof"
Hmmm....interesting. And the very next verse, written some 2000
years ago, says that "this is the last hour".
Did I miss a memo?
2) How is this any different from my picture of
God's removing your free will at that point? Are
you saying that it is not by our own free will that
we choose to sin? And if is not by our own free
will that we choose to sin, how dare your God
punish us for it?
It is by our corrupt will that we sin, and it will be by our cleansed
will that we will not.
Ah, so God CHANGES our will for us.
That pretty much shoots down the concept of "free will" right
there, if God goes stickings overrides and bypasses in it.
3) Why do you think that "the person you are underneath"
is your true self, but that the "sin-infected" nature is
not also your true self? And if your rebellious nature
was not actually a part of your true self, then what
possible justification can you give for God punishing
people for that non-self aspect of their being?
This is the part that we've been through before. Do you believe in
genetic defects being passed down in the lines of those that do drugs
or have sex with siblings or such?
I believe that this is not prima facie impossible. And I know -- as you
likely do not -- that nothing of the sort has been conclusively shown,
to date. But yes, there is nothing intrinsically impossible about
the idea.
Would it be the fault of God that
they have these defects or the fault of the sinful parents...
Oh, hey, that's an easy one: God. The parents did not
design the system that propagates defects, God did.
the
parents, of course. Thus, when Adam and Eve sinned, it is entirely
plausable that their desire to sin would be passed down (like the
children of addicts being more prone to addictions).
Not if the Designer had the simplest concept of what a software
engineer would term Fault Tolerance, it wouldn't.
Shoddy engineering. Very, very shoddy. Humans routinely do better.
This is what the
church calls ORIGINAL SIN. Man has a genetic flaw of temptation to
sin, passed down from all of their parents. This flaw is is "the
flesh" that is rebuked by Paul and other church leaders.
Well, he should have addressed his complaints to the original
designer. One would assume that an omniscient and omnipotent
engineer could have seen that coming, and designed around it --
thus preventing His finding Himself in the ethically
untennable position of blaming one product for faults arising
in another product.
And...to the
point of this discussion...so long as we are in this infected body,
we'll have this temptation and lust. Yet, when we are reborn in new
bodies (free of the infection), the lusts of the world will be gone,
too. Got it?
Yeppers. I also get it that if God can do that, then He is
grievously culpable for not having done it the first time around,
and thus having avoided condemning millions of souls to
needless eternal torment.
-- cary
Yeah, how horrible for God to not free the unrepentant rebel from
their prison sentence...
My comments ignored and clipped...noted.
Actually, I went on to elaborate on precisely how horrible God, your
version of, could be. Did you read it?
<sigh...>
Let's see if I can summarize the discussion to date so cleanly
and simply that even you can follow what is actually being
said, shall we? Now, TRY, dammit, OK? Ready? Here we go:
First off, you jumped into the middle of the discussion, as this
discussion started with my statement that Eternal Security is true, if
you have really submitted and believed in Christ at any time.
1) I ask what happens in heaven; do people continue to sin?
And if not, how is it possible that we both have free will
and do not sin?
2) You tell me that somehow our "sin nature" will be stripped,
away, leaving us with some sort of underlying, truer spirit
which no longer has the inclination -- or apparently, even the
ability -- to sin. Do I have that right?
WE don't have a sin nature. We have a sin infection, which is what I
said, if you took the time to read my words. Why not answer this
question that you, earlier left unanswered...
"Or, when we remove addition from a drug addict, do you believe we
have changed who they are as a person? "
What in the world does "removing" addition[sic] mean? Are we
talking brain chmistry, the reward center, shifts in neurotransmitter
and receptor populations. Or what?
If so, then yes: anything that changes the brain changes the
person. And none of is exactly the person we were a moment
ago anyway. All of us change, and that constantly.
3) I then ask you if it's the case that God can do that, then
why didn't He do that in the first place, creating us
with that perfect disinclination to sin the from the get-go --
thus avoiding the rather unpleasant spectacle of a Father
subjecting His children to unbearable torture for ever and
ever and ever and ever and ever?
He DID create us perfect. We were infected by the rebellion of Satan
among us. Without a Satan, we would still be in Heaven. There will
be no rebel in the future Heaven...thus, no sin infection. Got it?
Ah, The Devil Made Us Do It.
And God thoughtfully provided us with Satan, and the venue
in which Satan Made Us Do It?
Did He not see that one coming, or did He simply not care?
I refuse to be distracted on this point. The devil (who tempted Adam
and Eve into the sin infection) will not be in Heaven. Thus, I
answered your question about how we would be clean from the sin nature
in Heaven...correct?
In terms of your own particular theological beliefs, yes you did.
Of course you're the first theologican I've heard claim that Satan
is necessary for man to refuse to obey God.
That said, I still remain curious as to why you think God
set up the game the way He did in the first place.
(and incidentally, sometimes a serpent is just a serpent: nothing
in Genesis points to the serpent being Satan)
-- cary
It's very simple, and we've been through this before...as usual...you
really need to look into making a doctor's appointment for memory
problems. God put Satan on the Earth. Who was in charge of the Earth
at the time...man. Thus, Satan and the demons were under the charge
of man as their jailers. Yet, man gave up his reign over the devil
and Satan moved in by default...this is the foundation for all of
man's problems to date.
Ken, I can just about give you an irridum-clad guarantee that you
have NEVER floated the above in my direction before -- because
I am quite certain that if you had ever suggested anything
so utterly fanciful, bizarre, and absolutely non-Scriptural,
I don't think I could ever have gotten it out of my head, want
to or not.
There is NOTHING in the story that suggests that remotely suggests that "Satan
and the demons were under the charge of man as their jailers". But I've got
to hand it to you: surely this is one of the most creative heresies
I've seen in quite some time.
And to think you're accused of being overly-literal when it comes
to Scripture...
But hey, I'll play along -- why in Bastest's sweet name would any
god worthy of being called such set up so obviously doomed a system?
Did your God NOT forsee what would happen? And if He did, WHAT
THE HELL WAS HE THINKING?
As for the serpent...
Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong
sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that
crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent,
called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was
cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Well, you've just proved to me that Adam and Eve were brought low
by a dragon.
And to think you're accused of being overly-literal when it comes
to Scripture...
(sure you're not thinking of Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden"?)
In other words: don't be silly. Satan is called a serpent, a leviathan,
a dragon -- and there WAS a serpent at Eden, therefore it was Satan?
But if that IS the case, how come when we come to Job, Satan doesn't
tell God that He's freshly come from slithering up and down
the Earth, and crawling to and fro in it? Seems like He
would have a hard time saying "walking" with a straight face,
seeing as how had no longer had any legs at that point...
And, I have no problem saying that it was a LITERAL snake that
appeared to Eve (the form Satan took)...in fact, a winged serpent
(which would be a dragon), since the mythology of the world has a
winged serpent as a Divine figure in many of their drawings (at..I'm
sure..the devil's suggestion).
And let us not overlook that fact that the serpent often appears
in other early Middle Eastern myths, sometimes as a trickster.
Myths which non-literalist scholars might even tell you predate
the setting down of what became Genesis.
-- cary
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Proof by LORD Almighty GOD: rain in Mableton frustrates satan. |
13 Dec 2007 11:34:40 PM |
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One fine day in alt.atheism, (Cary Kittrell)
bloodied us up with this:
Brenda "Ex-born-again christian" Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Ex-?
The license plate frame on my truck says "Born Again Atheist". I like
that, it indicates the light came on upstairs, and stayed on. And it
drives my neighbor across the street batty.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
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