Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service


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Topic: Sociology > Education
User: "LeMod Pol"
Date: 05 May 2005 11:17:10 AM
Object: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service
Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service
Telecom and cable companies are supporting a bill in
the Florida Legislature that would make it more
difficult for cities to offer Internet service.
[Actually it is an aggressive defence of the telecoms'
outrageous profits and ballooning executive salaries as
well as their reluctance to enter the new millennium of
technology- LP]
BY BEATRICE E. GARCIA AND ERIKA BOLSTAD
ebolstad@herald.com
TALLAHASSEE - High-speed Internet access for the
masses. That's a service some cities in Florida want to provide.
But major telecommunication and cable companies are
moving to make it harder for cities to get into the
business of offering free Internet access, saying it
cuts into their business.
The Florida House of Representatives has passed
legislation that forces cities and government-owned
electric utilities to go through the same hurdles as
privately owned telecommunication companies. A similar
bill is pending before the Senate.
The fight makes Florida the latest battleground in a
state-by-state war over who should provide Internet
access. Wireless advocates in some cities have staged
grass-roots efforts to set up public networks. The
telecom industry is arguing that municipalities have a
streamlined regulatory process and low-interest
financing that give them a competitive advantage over companies.
''Our driving force has been that we see more and more
local governments being told that this is a great
business to be in,'' said Charles Dudley, the general
counsel for the Florida Cable Telecommunications Association.
In some rural Florida cities, however, local
governments have jumped in because private Internet
service providers didn't want to offer access in their
areas. They're providing wireless Internet access or
using the electric utility lines that already go to
residents' homes.
The town of Quincy in North Florida, for example, made
a substantial investment in technology, said Rep.
Curtis Richardson, D-Tallahassee.
The city issued bonds to pay build a high-speed
Internet network to help draw Big Bend Rebar to an
office park in the city, Richardson said. Private
companies weren't interested in making the investment,
said Richardson, so the city of Quincy stepped in.
''They were forced to get into the business,''
Richardson said of Quincy. "There was nobody else
providing the service because they didn't think there
was a profit.''
The legislation forces cities and counties that want to
offer high-speed Internet access or other communication
networks to hold a series of public hearings and prove
that they will be profitable -- or break even -- within
four years. They also must show that no private company
wants to offer the service in their area.
In many cases, municipal-owned wireless networks have
sprung up when a county or city develops them for
emergency use.
[In fact wi-fi is the future combining voice and data -
and is much further developed in South America, central
asia and mideast than in america - in large because of
the megalomania of executives like Ivan Seidenberg
(Verizon CEO) and their reluctance to scrap 5 year old
technology that is already obsolete- LP]

In some cities, like St. Cloud in Central Florida, the
Internet access is free. Others are charging a minimum
monthly fee, which is usually about 50 percent lower
than what private companies charge for monthly DSL service.
''This is a terrible bill,'' said Jonathan Baltuch, an
Orlando-based consultant working with St. Cloud to
deploy its citywide wireless network, which should be
completed by the end of the year. "The telecoms aren't
providing services that residents want.''
Lawmakers in more than a dozen states are considering
similar legislation, which has been pending in Florida
now for two years. Colorado passed similar legislation
in March, but it was voted down in Indiana and Virginia.
However, Florida's proposed law and the one passed by
Pennsylvania last year are the most restrictive because
both attempt to keep municipalities out of the Internet
business in the future.
In Florida, existing municipal wireless networks would
be grandfathered in by this bill, but they wouldn't be
allowed to add new customers.
The House sponsor of the legislation, Rep. Frank
Attkisson, said he saw the bill as an ideological cause
for the House Business Regulation Committee he heads.
''If cities want to get in business, they can, but we
limit them to their city limits or we limit them to
their county jurisdiction,'' said Attkisson, R-Kissimmee.
[I wonder how much bellsouth contributed to Atkisson's
election war chest???? <G> He certainly is not helping
his constituents - LP]
It's a concept echoed by companies like BellSouth, one
of the big supporters of this measure. Cities are using
taxpayer money to compete against the private sector, a
BellSouth spokeswoman said.
The Progress & Freedom Foundation, a pro-business think
tank [translated "business propaganda and lobbying
facility"], concluded in a 2004 study that
municipalities entering the telecom business were
putting their residents at financial risk.
''Despite their advantages, none of these networks are
covering their costs without being subsidized,'' the
study found.
It also found that it was common for cities to invest
millions of dollars in building their own cable or
fiber-optic networks to provide broadband service for
their own use as well as for residents and businesses.
Many of these ventures, which involved providing
traditional wired broadband access, weren't
cost-effective because of the heavy investment these
networks required.
[But now they can use AC cables and/or wireless and
offer voice as well - LP]
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/11564936.htm
Copyright 2005 Knight Ridder
--
LP
"A little sunlight is the best disinfectant," Supreme
Court Justice Louis Brandeis commented. "Never
more so than when it exposes towering hypocrisy."
.

User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 11:22:03 AM
(LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A4700.EDE73C06@igs.net:

[Actually it is an aggressive defence of the telecoms'
outrageous profits and ballooning executive salaries as
well as their reluctance to enter the new millennium of
technology- LP]

So, what other industries and businesses should cities get involved
in?
Should your city offer tax-subsidized department stores? Grocery
stores?
What are the criteria you're using to select which industries get
tax-subsidized competition?
BTW: Do you ->really want your Internet traffic to pass through a
government-owned and operated facility?
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 02:19:50 PM
Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

modpol@igs.net (LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A4700.EDE73C06@igs.net:

[Actually it is an aggressive defence of the telecoms'
outrageous profits and ballooning executive salaries as
well as their reluctance to enter the new millennium of
technology- LP]


So, what other industries and businesses should cities get involved
in?

Whatever "we the people" through our elected representatives choose to
have them get involved in.

Should your city offer tax-subsidized department stores? Grocery
stores?

If "we the people" through our elected representatives so choose, then
yes. It isn't likely to happen.

What are the criteria you're using to select which industries get
tax-subsidized competition?

Whatever industries "we the people" through our elected
representatives choose to have cities get involved in, they should get
involved in them.

BTW: Do you ->really want your Internet traffic to pass through a
government-owned and operated facility?

For those that want internet service for free, that seems like a small
penalty. Those who value their privacy don't have to use the free
service.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 02:30:35 PM
(Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:c8sk71hqs6hqkbasi9npfjetclrcmnsfb6@4ax.com:

Bert Hyman <

> wrote:

modpol@igs.net (LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A4700.EDE73C06@igs.net:

[Actually it is an aggressive defence of the telecoms'
outrageous profits and ballooning executive salaries as
well as their reluctance to enter the new millennium of
technology- LP]


So, what other industries and businesses should cities get involved
in?


Whatever "we the people" through our elected representatives choose
to have them get involved in.

Really? You see no limits to the power of government beyond what "the
people" demand from moment to moment?
Constitution and individual liberty be damned, eh?
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 12:03:33 PM
Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

(Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:c8sk71hqs6hqkbasi9npfjetclrcmnsfb6@4ax.com:

Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

modpol@igs.net (LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A4700.EDE73C06@igs.net:

[Actually it is an aggressive defence of the telecoms'
outrageous profits and ballooning executive salaries as
well as their reluctance to enter the new millennium of
technology- LP]


So, what other industries and businesses should cities get involved
in?


Whatever "we the people" through our elected representatives choose
to have them get involved in.


Really? You see no limits to the power of government beyond what "the
people" demand from moment to moment?

The limits are those few that are stated in the constitution, and the
occasional unstated rights that the so-called "activist judges"
determine.
There are limits on the Federal government beyond those, because of
the doctrine of enumerated powers. But that doesn't apply to the
states, who have whatever power they wish that isn't forbidden by the
Federal constitution/ Bill of Rights.

Constitution and individual liberty be damned, eh?

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much you
limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private business.
To the individual, his liberty is constrained no matter what force
constrains it.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 01:03:56 PM
(Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much you
limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.

The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 02:42:24 PM
Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

(Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much you
limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.


The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.

Depends on the power of the government in that particular arena. If
there is a power vacuum, private business do indeed use armed men.
They may be security guards in most areas, but can we say "mafia"?
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 03:31:05 PM
(Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:72in71lelmbjnt2eb1a2dmaeqrlnmijgs7@4ax.com:

Bert Hyman <

> wrote:

(Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much
you limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.


The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.


Depends on the power of the government in that particular arena.
If there is a power vacuum, private business do indeed use armed
men. They may be security guards in most areas, but can we say
"mafia"?

Again, the last time I checked, "the mafia" were still considered
criminals, at least in the US.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 07 May 2005 02:55:38 PM
Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

(Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:72in71lelmbjnt2eb1a2dmaeqrlnmijgs7@4ax.com:

Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

(Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much
you limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.


The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.


Depends on the power of the government in that particular arena.
If there is a power vacuum, private business do indeed use armed
men. They may be security guards in most areas, but can we say
"mafia"?


Again, the last time I checked, "the mafia" were still considered
criminals, at least in the US.

So what? It is still "private business enforcing its wishes with
armed men". Just because it isn't legal, doesn't mean that business
won't do it. Just look at Enron (and a raft of other examples).
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 07 May 2005 03:15:44 PM
In news:l57q71dlm8b7eklp65bp0vcmv7ljrkqed8@4ax.com Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:72in71lelmbjnt2eb1a2dmaeqrlnmijgs7@4ax.com:

Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much
you limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.


The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.


Depends on the power of the government in that particular arena.
If there is a power vacuum, private business do indeed use armed
men. They may be security guards in most areas, but can we say
"mafia"?


Again, the last time I checked, "the mafia" were still considered
criminals, at least in the US.


So what? It is still "private business enforcing its wishes with
armed men". Just because it isn't legal, doesn't mean that business
won't do it. Just look at Enron (and a raft of other examples).

Well, OK, if you want to use organized crime as your model for government,
who am I to contradict you?
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 07 May 2005 06:37:20 PM
Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

In news:l57q71dlm8b7eklp65bp0vcmv7ljrkqed8@4ax.com Bob LeChevalier
<

> wrote:

So what? It is still "private business enforcing its wishes with
armed men". Just because it isn't legal, doesn't mean that business
won't do it. Just look at Enron (and a raft of other examples).


Well, OK, if you want to use organized crime as your model for government,
who am I to contradict you?

Organized crime is NOT my model for government. It is my model for
what private business becomes when not strongly regulated by
government.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.




User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 04:02:24 PM
In article <Xns964E9DF2269A2VeebleFetzerW.0.0.1> Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> writes:


lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:72in71lelmbjnt2eb1a2dmaeqrlnmijgs7@4ax.com:

Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much
you limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.


The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.


Depends on the power of the government in that particular arena.
If there is a power vacuum, private business do indeed use armed
men. They may be security guards in most areas, but can we say
"mafia"?


Again, the last time I checked, "the mafia" were still considered
criminals, at least in the US.

True. And it's also true that the Mafia is first and foremost
a business. Without hookers, drugs, and "discount items",
the Mafia would as little impact as men wearing fezes
and driving teensy tiny cars.
-- cary
.
User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 05:50:55 PM
In article <Xns964EB4543D97BVeebleFetzerŽ.250.184.7> Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> writes:

In news:d5gm10$fto$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu


(Cary Kittrell) wrote:


In article <Xns964E9DF2269A2VeebleFetzerW.0.0.1> Bert Hyman
<bert@iphouse.com> writes:


lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:72in71lelmbjnt2eb1a2dmaeqrlnmijgs7@4ax.com:

Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much
you limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.


The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.


Depends on the power of the government in that particular arena.
If there is a power vacuum, private business do indeed use armed
men. They may be security guards in most areas, but can we say
"mafia"?


Again, the last time I checked, "the mafia" were still considered
criminals, at least in the US.


True. And it's also true that the Mafia is first and foremost
a business.


No. It's first and foremost a criminal enterprise which has some of the
external trappings of a business.

"Enterprise" is the operative word here. They provide supply to
a demand, and they make a profit.


Without hookers, drugs, and "discount items", the Mafia would as little
impact as men wearing fezes and driving teensy tiny cars.


Oddly enough, it was "well meaning" government actions which gave
organized crime its first real foothold in the US and it's been continuing
government actions which have allowed it to thrive and will allow it to
thrive in the future.

First, alcohol prohibition.

Then, the War on (Some) Drugs.

Now, tobacco.

Soon, guns.

Hard to disagree with that. I'm not sure what the solution might be ...
personally, I suspect legalization, combined with intensive
efforts at education, is the least odious of all the possibilities.
Heavy taxation aside, that's what is happening with tobacco, and
it seems to be moderately successful
-- cary
.
User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 06:08:58 PM
In article <Xns964EB8269D28AVeebleFetzerŽ.250.184.7> Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> writes:

In news:d5gscf$sp7$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu


(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

Heavy taxation aside, that's what is happening with tobacco, and
it seems to be moderately successful


Then you must be unaware of the large-scale cigarette smuggling operations
that have been in operation for years to the high-tax states, and the
growing illegal trade in non-taxed imported cigarettes.

Nope, I was aware -- which is why I carefully wrote "heavy taxation aside",
and reserved my approval for the "legalize but invest in education" approach.
-- cary
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 06:13:24 PM
In news:d5gtea$1cl$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

In article <Xns964EB8269D28AVeebleFetzerŽ.250.184.7> Bert Hyman
<bert@iphouse.com> writes:

In news:d5gscf$sp7$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu


(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

Heavy taxation aside, that's what is happening with tobacco, and
it seems to be moderately successful


Then you must be unaware of the large-scale cigarette smuggling
operations that have been in operation for years to the high-tax
states, and the growing illegal trade in non-taxed imported cigarettes.


Nope, I was aware -- which is why I carefully wrote "heavy taxation
aside", and reserved my approval for the "legalize but invest in
education" approach.

Sorry; I read that as approving of the "heavy taxation" technique.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
.


User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 06:05:53 PM
In news:d5gscf$sp7$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

Heavy taxation aside, that's what is happening with tobacco, and
it seems to be moderately successful

Then you must be unaware of the large-scale cigarette smuggling operations
that have been in operation for years to the high-tax states, and the
growing illegal trade in non-taxed imported cigarettes.
Just another make-work project of Your Friendly Federal Government.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
.


User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 05:43:21 PM
In news:d5gm10$fto$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:


In article <Xns964E9DF2269A2VeebleFetzerW.0.0.1> Bert Hyman
<bert@iphouse.com> writes:


lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:72in71lelmbjnt2eb1a2dmaeqrlnmijgs7@4ax.com:

Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:

lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:

"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much
you limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.


The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.


Depends on the power of the government in that particular arena.
If there is a power vacuum, private business do indeed use armed
men. They may be security guards in most areas, but can we say
"mafia"?


Again, the last time I checked, "the mafia" were still considered
criminals, at least in the US.


True. And it's also true that the Mafia is first and foremost
a business.

No. It's first and foremost a criminal enterprise which has some of the
external trappings of a business.

Without hookers, drugs, and "discount items", the Mafia would as little
impact as men wearing fezes and driving teensy tiny cars.

Oddly enough, it was "well meaning" government actions which gave
organized crime its first real foothold in the US and it's been continuing
government actions which have allowed it to thrive and will allow it to
thrive in the future.
First, alcohol prohibition.
Then, the War on (Some) Drugs.
Now, tobacco.
Soon, guns.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
.



User: "Richard Burns"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 02:41:14 PM
Bert Hyman wrote:

lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:


"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much you
limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.



The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.

Sure they do. What do you think the war in Iraq is?
Sure, they're (mostly) U.S. soldiers, but they're doing the
bidding of the corporations' *****, Bush.
Richard.
.
User: "LeMod Pol"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 03:03:12 PM
Richard Burns wrote:


Bert Hyman wrote:

lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:


"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much you
limit the power of government. That's because any power that
government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.



The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.


Sure they do. What do you think the war in Iraq is?
Sure, they're (mostly) U.S. soldiers, but they're doing the
bidding of the corporations' *****, Bush.
Richard.

Another poor deluded fool
Poor poor Richard
--
LP
Those who show compassion to perpetrators of evil
will display indifference and cruelty to good people
deserving compassion.
* Talmud- kohlet midrabba 7:36
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 06 May 2005 03:37:22 PM
(LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427BCCE9.FAD30EE3@igs.net:

Richard Burns wrote:


Bert Hyman wrote:

lojbab@lojban.org (Bob LeChevalier) wrote in
news:bi8n71t5mn6slt4ctk0ctcorarkp97voir@4ax.com:


"Individual liberty" is by and large a myth, no matter how much
you limit the power of government. That's because any power
that government doesn't exercise is instead exercise by private
business.



The last time I checked, private businesses didn't enforce their
wishes with armed men.


Sure they do. What do you think the war in Iraq is?
Sure, they're (mostly) U.S. soldiers, but they're doing the
bidding of the corporations' *****, Bush.
Richard.


Another poor deluded fool
Poor poor Richard

Wait.
He's not entirely wrong, although he's so far not completely right.
As the government intrudes more and more into what used to be the
domain of the private citizen, the distinction between state action
and private action does become harder to see.
These days when the government acts, sometimes with armed force, it's
often doing so for the benefit of some industry or even some
individual.
Of course, those who advocate government regulation of industry, or
even outright government control of industry, probably didn't expect
this particular perverse outcome of their philosophy.
Or at least the naive ones didn't.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.







User: "LeMod Pol"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 12:38:48 PM
Bert Hyman wrote:


modpol@igs.net (LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A4700.EDE73C06@igs.net:

[Actually it is an aggressive defence of the telecoms'
outrageous profits and ballooning executive salaries as
well as their reluctance to enter the new millennium of
technology- LP]


So, what other industries and businesses should cities get involved
in?

Should your city offer tax-subsidized department stores? Grocery
stores?

Telecom is a "public utility" and my experience with
municipal owned public utilities over the past 70 years
has been very positive. Ontario Hydro, Toronto Hydro,
TVA, even the tiny Lincolnville (ME) telephone company.
By contrast I have also dealt with ATT, ITT, New
England Electric, Consolidated Edison, New England
Bell, NY Telephone, Bell Atlantic (The three now form
Verizon since my time.), Southwest Bell and 3 wireless
companies (including Cellular 1 which went to pot as
soon as it was bought by ATT)

What are the criteria you're using to select which industries get
tax-subsidized competition?

Bert - every public utility user in the country pays a
tax in their utility bills -- sure most of it is hidden
in the rates, but they are taxes nevertheless.
Unless the world reverts to the stone age, the telecom
industry will be totally morphed into a totally
wireless world before 2020

BTW: Do you ->really want your Internet traffic to pass through a
government-owned and operated facility?

What difference would it make - one set of thieves or another??
The net started as a DoD structure (ARPANET) and
morphed into the WorldWideWeb and Usenet, and you can
be sure that underneath it all you can be certain that
a DoD mechanism is monitoring traffic.
Certainly I would not trust any of the thieves running
telecom companies in the United states or Canada. Ivan
Seidenberg tried to steal from me, but I caught him.. I
told Ray Allen that he was cheating his (BellAtlantic)
shareholders by giving Ivan $40 a share for Nynex when
it was only worth $20. All he had to do was back off
from the deal for a few months and he would get it for
$25. But Ray was nervous, fearful that his past
failures would catch up to him before he could bail
out. And then there was MCI and Worldcom ... <G>
--
LP
"A little sunlight is the best disinfectant," Supreme
Court Justice Louis Brandeis commented. "Never
more so than when it exposes towering hypocrisy."
.
User: "George Grapman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 12:54:27 PM
Coming from someone in the business I can tell you that all the big
outfits have a double standard. They want unfettered competition when
they want to offer a new service yet they want the government to protect
them when others want to compete with their existing services.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
.
User: "LeMod Pol"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 01:48:45 PM
George Grapman wrote:


Coming from someone in the business I can tell you that all the big
outfits have a double standard. They want unfettered competition when
they want to offer a new service yet they want the government to protect
them when others want to compete with their existing services.

RIGHT ON !!!!!!
--
LP
"We are fighting today for security, for progress,
and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all
men, not only for one generation but for all
generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world
of ancient evils, ancient ills."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
State of the Union Address - 1942
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 01:51:41 PM
(LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A6A7B.D97F683B@igs.net:



George Grapman wrote:


Coming from someone in the business I can tell you that all
the big outfits have a double standard. They want unfettered
competition when they want to offer a new service yet they want
the government to protect them when others want to compete with
their existing services.

RIGHT ON !!!!!!

So, which do you want to get rid of?
Competition or government protection?
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.
User: "LeMod Pol"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 03:15:25 PM
Bert Hyman wrote:


modpol@igs.net (LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A6A7B.D97F683B@igs.net

George Grapman wrote:


Coming from someone in the business I can tell you that all
the big outfits have a double standard. They want unfettered
competition when they want to offer a new service yet they want
the government to protect them when others want to compete with
their existing services.

RIGHT ON !!!!!!


So, which do you want to get rid of?

Competition or government protection?

Bert -- it's time to stop trolling <G>
--
LP
Those who show compassion to perpetrators of evil
will display indifference and cruelty to good people
deserving compassion.
* Talmud- kohl midrib 7:36
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 03:25:12 PM
(LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A7EC5.3F836F1C@igs.net:

Bert Hyman wrote:


(LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A6A7B.D97F683B@igs.net

George Grapman wrote:


Coming from someone in the business I can tell you that all
the big outfits have a double standard. They want unfettered
competition when they want to offer a new service yet they want
the government to protect them when others want to compete with
their existing services.

RIGHT ON !!!!!!


So, which do you want to get rid of?

Competition or government protection?

Bert -- it's time to stop trolling <G>

Well, I suppose my post does sort of meet the definition of trolling:
making an inflammatory post designed to instigate a response.
But then we must all be trolling.
But seriously...
It's the fact that industries demand from the government either
protection for themselves or damage to their competitors, coupled
with the fact that politicians are more than willing to give them one
or both in return for payment, that's at the root of a lot of our
domestic economic troubles.
And you know that so long as politicians have such favors to give,
which actually means so long as the government "regulates" commerce,
corrupt business men will pour millions of dollars into the pockets
of corrupt politicians to obtain those favors.
The only way to stop it is to get the government out of the role of
regulating commerce, because if they have nothing to sell, nobody
will be trying to buy.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.


User: "George Grapman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 01:56:36 PM
Bert Hyman wrote:

modpol@igs.net (LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A6A7B.D97F683B@igs.net:



George Grapman wrote:

Coming from someone in the business I can tell you that all
the big outfits have a double standard. They want unfettered
competition when they want to offer a new service yet they want
the government to protect them when others want to compete with
their existing services.


RIGHT ON !!!!!!



So, which do you want to get rid of?

Competition or government protection?

The government role should be limited to technical standards and fraud.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
.




User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 12:41:29 PM
(LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A5A1B.F12DFDD3@igs.net:

Bert Hyman wrote:


(LeMod Pol) wrote in
news:427A4700.EDE73C06@igs.net:

[Actually it is an aggressive defence of the telecoms'
outrageous profits and ballooning executive salaries as
well as their reluctance to enter the new millennium of
technology- LP]


So, what other industries and businesses should cities get
involved in?

Should your city offer tax-subsidized department stores? Grocery
stores?


Telecom is a "public utility" and my experience with
municipal owned public utilities over the past 70 years
has been very positive. Ontario Hydro, Toronto Hydro,
TVA, even the tiny Lincolnville (ME) telephone company.

This isn't about "telecom" per se, but about government owned and
operated internet service providers, in direct competition with
existing private companies which are doing a more than adequate job.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.
User: "LeMod Pol"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 01:46:18 PM
Bert Hyman wrote:


modpol@igs.net (LeMod Pol) wrote in news:427A5A1B.F12DFDD3@igs.net:

Bert Hyman wrote:


modpol@igs.net (LeMod Pol) wrote in
news:427A4700.EDE73C06@igs.net:

[Actually it is an aggressive defence of the telecoms'
outrageous profits and ballooning executive salaries as
well as their reluctance to enter the new millennium of
technology- LP]


So, what other industries and businesses should cities get
involved in?

Should your city offer tax-subsidized department stores? Grocery
stores?


Telecom is a "public utility" and my experience with
municipal owned public utilities over the past 70 years
has been very positive. Ontario Hydro, Toronto Hydro,
TVA, even the tiny Lincolnville (ME) telephone company.


This isn't about "telecom" per se, but about government owned and
operated internet service providers, in direct competition with
existing private companies which are doing a more than adequate job.

Therein you are dead wrong on both counts

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |


--
LP
"We are fighting today for security, for progress,
and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all
men, not only for one generation but for all
generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world
of ancient evils, ancient ills."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
State of the Union Address - 1942
.



User: "Daniel J. Stern"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 12:15:10 PM
On Thu, 5 May 2005, Bert Hyman wrote:

So, what other industries and businesses should cities get involved
in?

Oh, y'know...stuff that everybody needs and everybody uses. Water,
electricity, gas, sewage treatment. There's a name for these sorts of
things. They're called "public utilities". And just as electricity started
out being provided on an ad hoc, unregulated, smoke-'em-if-ya-got-'em
basis, so started internet service. And just as electricity came to be
standardised and regulated as a public utility, so eventually should
internet service.

BTW: Do you ->really want your Internet traffic to pass through a
government-owned and operated facility?

*guffaw* You, uh, aren't aware that it already does?
(And how _do_ you cope with the mental anguish created by your water, your
electricity, your telephony, and your mail passing through numerous
governmentally-owned, -operated or -regulated facilities?)
.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 12:21:01 PM
dastern@127.0.0.1 (Daniel J. Stern) wrote in
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.0505051311130.21964@alumni.engin.umich.edu:

On Thu, 5 May 2005, Bert Hyman wrote:

So, what other industries and businesses should cities get
involved in?


Oh, y'know...stuff that everybody needs and everybody uses. Water,
electricity, gas, sewage treatment. There's a name for these sorts
of things. They're called "public utilities". And just as
electricity started out being provided on an ad hoc, unregulated,
smoke-'em-if-ya-got-'em basis, so started internet service. And
just as electricity came to be standardised and regulated as a
public utility, so eventually should internet service.

Well, we need food and clothing, so should the state supply them too?
By the way, I don't buy my electricity from the government.
You seem to have confused "regulation" with "ownership", although I
suppose a strict-constructionist capitalist would say that without
control, ownership is meaningless.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

.



User: "Roedy Green"

Title: Re: Telecom Industry Opposes Cities' Internet Service 05 May 2005 02:50:22 PM
On Thu, 05 May 2005 12:17:10 -0400, LeMod Pol <modpol@igs.net> wrote
or quoted :

TALLAHASSEE - High-speed Internet access for the
masses. That's a service some cities in Florida want to provide.

Here are some arguments for the cities offering high speed Internet
service:
1. it is an extension of the library. The Internet is an electronic
extension of the local library.
2. it is cheaper to provide service if it is "free". You don't have
all that accounting and access control to deal with.
3. it helps give the poor an equal chance. People without Internet
access are disabled in school and general knowledge.
4. It gives some accountability in service. With a monopoly private
company, what can you do when the company screws you. With the city
running things, you can vote out the entire executive.
5. It can be part of building code to install fibre optics that look
to the future.
6. It makes the city more attractive to business knowing they can get
high speed access anywhere in the city including from employees homes.
7. By nature fibre optic service is a monopoly or near monopoly. Free
enterprise breaks down without sufficient competition.
Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
Complicit Bush-friendly media keeps mum.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/mckinney_grills_rumsfeld.htm
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
.


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