The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states



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Topic: Sociology > Education
User: "dpr"
Date: 21 Sep 2003 05:36:42 PM
Object: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2583.html
Courts, Churches and the Constitution
by Bruce Walker
The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states in the
first place.
Americans have been trained well by Leftists. Relentless propaganda has
created myths about American government which conceal critical facts.
Seldom has this propaganda been more effective than in spinning the odd lie
that the United States Constitution requires that religion and government
must be separate.
The Leftist argument is based upon the First Amendment to the Constitution,
which says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." What did this term --
establishment of religion -- originally mean?
The history of the late Eighteenth Century, the period in which these words
were penned, and the voluminous and clear writings of our Founding Fathers
make the meaning clear: Congress, the intended repository of nearly all
federal power, was prohibited from establishing a specific national church.
Most European nations in 1791 had an established national church. The
United Kingdom of Great Britain included two distinct nations, England and
Scotland, and this polity had two established national churches --
Anglicanism in England and Presbyterianism in Scotland. Our Revolutionary
War allowed us to break from Britain in all the ways that vexed us.
Pointedly, this prohibition did not prevent -- and it was never intended to
prevent -- the governments of the sovereign and several states of the United
States from establishing particular religions within those states. In fact,
half of the original thirteen states not only had established state churches
but continued to have these established state churches after the
ratification of the Constitution and after the adoption of the Bill of
Rights.
The Founding Fathers viewed a national church, just as they viewed a
national government, as an inherent danger to liberty. The Bill of Rights
itself does not limit the powers of state governments at all. Ratification
of these first ten amendments was insisted upon by the Antifederalists
(which included a number of our Founding Fathers) as a protection against
the power of the new, national government.
The Tenth Amendment provides that powers not given the government of the
United States were reserved to the states or the people. The Ninth
Amendment -- the "forgotten Ninth" -- goes even farther, saying that the
enumeration of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage
others retained by the people.
This amendment is especially important because the United States does not
enumerate or create any rights for state governments, which were at the time
sovereign, and because the language "shall not be construed" was a check
upon the judicial branch of the federal government, whose fanciful powers
have come through the artifice of "construing" the Constitution.
There are no longer any established churches in state governments, but this
has nothing at all to do with the First Amendment. The states that had
established religions in 1791 gradually ended these established religions
over the next four decades (much like all those northern states that had
slavery in 1791, ended slavery by state, not federal, action in those same
succeeding decades).
Assume that the First Amendment never had a clause prohibiting the
establishment of a national church -- remembering that the Constitution did
not have this prohibition, and only the amendments to that document
prohibited Congress from establishing a national religion -- would this have
been a calamity?
While that was a reasonable assumption in 1791, it was not a reasonable
opinion at all by 1945. England, Sweden, Scotland, and Iceland -- nations
which had resisted the monstrous horrors of racial and religious genocide --
all had established national churches.
Indeed, those nations which acted most honorably during the Second World
War -- England, Sweden, Scotland, Iceland, Norway, Denmark and Finland --
were notable for continuing to have an established state religion long after
this had been fashionable in the salons of Paris or the populist beer halls
of Berlin. If experience is any guide, nations do not act monstrously until
God has been made an "unperson."
The First Amendment is directed only at Congress, not at the federal
government generally. "Congress shall make no law..." What if President
Bush issued an executive order declaring that the Judeo-Christian faith is
the national religion of American government? What would the Supreme Court
do? The First Amendment is clear: it limits only the power of Congress.
It does not restrict actions by the President or the Supreme Court. Could
the Supreme Court itself pronounce that the Christian faith or the
Judeo-Christian faith is the national religion of America. Absolutely! In
fact, in 1892, over one century after the Bill of Rights that created the
illusory "wall between church and state" was adopted, the Supreme Court in
its Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States stated, "Our laws and
institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The
Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise, and in
this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are
emphatically Christian"
If the First Amendment was never intended to restrict state government
power, then how was this amendment ever construed as limiting the power of
state governments -- particularly considering that state governments had the
power to establish state churches after the Constitution and the Bill of
Rights were adopted?
The judicial flim-flam for this fraud is called "incorporation." It refers
to the Supreme Court's determination that the Fourteenth Amendment to the
Constitution "incorporates" most of the Bill of Rights into state
governments. The Fourteenth Amendments prohibits state governments from
denying anyone their life, liberty or property without due process of law
and requires that state governments give each person within the state equal
protection of the laws.
Was this what Congress and state legislatures intended when they enacted the
Fourteenth Amendment? No -- not only did those men who passed this
amendment not intend that incorporation, but the Supreme Court itself has
specifically held that the purpose for the Fourteenth Amendment -- like the
Thirteenth Amendment and Fifteenth Amendment -- was to protect recently
emancipated slaves in the South.
And it long used this reasoning to refuse to extend the protections of Bill
of Rights to state government actions. In 1925, the Supreme Court rejected
the argument that the Fourteenth Amendment "incorporated" the protections of
freedom of speech in the Bill of Rights to state governments, but then
magically discovered that this federal protections were incorporated in a
1931 decision. In 1940 and then again in 1947 the Supreme Court determined
that the establishment provisions of the First Amendment did not apply to
the states, but then reversed itself in 1948.
Why? Was it because the citizens of the various states had no other rights
except those in the Bill of Rights? No. In fact, the various rights which
we rightly consider indispensable to a free nation were first granted to
Americans by state governments, not the federal government.
State constitutions did not include these rights as "amendments" because
these rights were spelled out in the original state constitutions
themselves. State governments have proven better, not worse, protectors of
individual liberties than the federal government.
Was it because the threat of established religion had proven so dangerous to
the modern world? In 1948, precisely the opposite argument could be made.
It is now obvious, from the example of those decent and tolerant nations
which have formally established a particular Christian denomination as the
state religion, that the horrors of holocausts, gulags and persecution were
not caused by established churches in nations.
Was it because state governments were threatening to create some sort of
theocracies? No. More than a century after state governments had
voluntarily -- without any pressure from any of the branches of the federal
government -- ended established state churches, there was virtually no
sentiment to make non-denominational New Hampshire into a Congregationalist
state.
The real cause is as simple as it is awful: Leftists loath the concept of a
Blessed Creator of the Universe. No one, no one at all, may be superior to
the ideology of man. This Deiphobia is the salient fact of all Leftists:
Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Mao, Mussolini and every other thug on the radical
Left recoils in horror at the image of a Lord of the Universe.
Ironically, the very purging of religion from state governments hurt, rather
than helped, those religious minorities whom it was ostensibly intended to
protect. When each state is allowed to approach religion in its own way,
then people faithful to one region can choose to live in a particular state
or region or city.
The Mormon migration to the Rocky Mountains insured that Utah was not
hateful toward Mormons. Jewish immigration to New York and other big cites
insured that these state governments were not anti-Semitic or hostile toward
Judaism. Catholics immigrants and voters -- Irish, Italian and Polish
voters, among others -- made anti-Catholic bigotry political poison.
The consequences of federalizing religion and government insures that the
spirit of toleration which naturally flowed from each state retaining
authority over these issues and each citizen having the power to move from
state to state will become testy, tense and, perhaps, totalitarian.
As bad as the federalization of this issue has been, the judicialization of
the issue is worse. The First Amendment addresses what Congress may do.
When the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted -- that very hook used by Leftists
to bring the unnecessary and redundant protections of the Bill of Rights
into state government -- does the Fourteenth Amendment give any inkling of
how the federal government is supposed to implement this amendment?
Yes, it does. Section Five says exactly how the Fourteenth Amendment is
supposed to be implemented, and it says: "Congress shall have the power, by
appropriate legislation, to enforce the provisions of this article."
Here is a novel concept: why not have Congress, and not the Supreme Court,
determine how to enforce the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment? When
the Constitution, when the Billl of Rights, when the Fourteenth Amendment
were adopted, the American people presumed that Congress -- who has the
exclusive authority under the Constitution to make laws -- might...make
laws!
What if Congress passed a law, pursuant to the power which the Fourteenth
Amendment places in Congress alone, that allows reasonable, clear, tolerant
and respected policies toward religion and government? To some people, that
would be a nightmare. To other people -- to all of us serfs -- it would be
liberation.
--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the state
at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.
.

User: "Yossarian"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 21 Sep 2003 10:24:03 PM
"dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com> wrote in message
news:vms9j9it8n3s29@corp.supernews.com...

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2583.html
Courts, Churches and the Constitution
by Bruce Walker

The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states in the
first place.

Americans have been trained well by Leftists. Relentless propaganda has
created myths about American government which conceal critical facts.
Seldom has this propaganda been more effective than in spinning the odd

lie

that the United States Constitution requires that religion and government
must be separate.

The Leftist argument is based upon the First Amendment to the

Constitution,

which says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." What did this

term --

establishment of religion -- originally mean?

Judicial precedent has established a "wall of seperation between church and
state". And I would feel very uncormfortable if we were to install a
judiciary that would allow tax payer funded churches at the state level.

The history of the late Eighteenth Century, the period in which these

words

were penned, and the voluminous and clear writings of our Founding Fathers
make the meaning clear: Congress, the intended repository of nearly all
federal power, was prohibited from establishing a specific national

church.


Most European nations in 1791 had an established national church. The
United Kingdom of Great Britain included two distinct nations, England and
Scotland, and this polity had two established national churches --
Anglicanism in England and Presbyterianism in Scotland. Our Revolutionary
War allowed us to break from Britain in all the ways that vexed us.

Pointedly, this prohibition did not prevent -- and it was never intended

to

prevent -- the governments of the sovereign and several states of the

United

States from establishing particular religions within those states. In

fact,

half of the original thirteen states not only had established state

churches

but continued to have these established state churches after the
ratification of the Constitution and after the adoption of the Bill of
Rights.

The Founding Fathers viewed a national church, just as they viewed a
national government, as an inherent danger to liberty. The Bill of Rights
itself does not limit the powers of state governments at all. Ratification
of these first ten amendments was insisted upon by the Antifederalists
(which included a number of our Founding Fathers) as a protection against
the power of the new, national government.

The Tenth Amendment provides that powers not given the government of the
United States were reserved to the states or the people. The Ninth
Amendment -- the "forgotten Ninth" -- goes even farther, saying that the
enumeration of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage
others retained by the people.

This amendment is especially important because the United States does not
enumerate or create any rights for state governments, which were at the

time

sovereign, and because the language "shall not be construed" was a check
upon the judicial branch of the federal government, whose fanciful powers
have come through the artifice of "construing" the Constitution.

You also did not have freedom of speech at the state level, but I do not
want judicial precedent to retrogress to that time period.
Yossarian

There are no longer any established churches in state governments, but

this

has nothing at all to do with the First Amendment. The states that had
established religions in 1791 gradually ended these established religions
over the next four decades (much like all those northern states that had
slavery in 1791, ended slavery by state, not federal, action in those same
succeeding decades).

Assume that the First Amendment never had a clause prohibiting the
establishment of a national church -- remembering that the Constitution

did

not have this prohibition, and only the amendments to that document
prohibited Congress from establishing a national religion -- would this

have

been a calamity?

While that was a reasonable assumption in 1791, it was not a reasonable
opinion at all by 1945. England, Sweden, Scotland, and Iceland --

nations

which had resisted the monstrous horrors of racial and religious

genocide --

all had established national churches.

Indeed, those nations which acted most honorably during the Second World
War -- England, Sweden, Scotland, Iceland, Norway, Denmark and Finland --
were notable for continuing to have an established state religion long

after

this had been fashionable in the salons of Paris or the populist beer

halls

of Berlin. If experience is any guide, nations do not act monstrously

until

God has been made an "unperson."

The First Amendment is directed only at Congress, not at the federal
government generally. "Congress shall make no law..." What if President
Bush issued an executive order declaring that the Judeo-Christian faith is
the national religion of American government? What would the Supreme

Court

do? The First Amendment is clear: it limits only the power of Congress.

It does not restrict actions by the President or the Supreme Court. Could
the Supreme Court itself pronounce that the Christian faith or the
Judeo-Christian faith is the national religion of America. Absolutely!

In

fact, in 1892, over one century after the Bill of Rights that created the
illusory "wall between church and state" was adopted, the Supreme Court in
its Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States stated, "Our laws and
institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of

The

Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise, and in
this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are
emphatically Christian"

If the First Amendment was never intended to restrict state government
power, then how was this amendment ever construed as limiting the power

of

state governments -- particularly considering that state governments had

the

power to establish state churches after the Constitution and the Bill of
Rights were adopted?

The judicial flim-flam for this fraud is called "incorporation." It

refers

to the Supreme Court's determination that the Fourteenth Amendment to the
Constitution "incorporates" most of the Bill of Rights into state
governments. The Fourteenth Amendments prohibits state governments from
denying anyone their life, liberty or property without due process of law
and requires that state governments give each person within the state

equal

protection of the laws.

Was this what Congress and state legislatures intended when they enacted

the

Fourteenth Amendment? No -- not only did those men who passed this
amendment not intend that incorporation, but the Supreme Court itself has
specifically held that the purpose for the Fourteenth Amendment -- like

the

Thirteenth Amendment and Fifteenth Amendment -- was to protect recently
emancipated slaves in the South.

And it long used this reasoning to refuse to extend the protections of

Bill

of Rights to state government actions. In 1925, the Supreme Court rejected
the argument that the Fourteenth Amendment "incorporated" the protections

of

freedom of speech in the Bill of Rights to state governments, but then
magically discovered that this federal protections were incorporated in a
1931 decision. In 1940 and then again in 1947 the Supreme Court

determined

that the establishment provisions of the First Amendment did not apply to
the states, but then reversed itself in 1948.

Why? Was it because the citizens of the various states had no other

rights

except those in the Bill of Rights? No. In fact, the various rights

which

we rightly consider indispensable to a free nation were first granted to
Americans by state governments, not the federal government.

State constitutions did not include these rights as "amendments" because
these rights were spelled out in the original state constitutions
themselves. State governments have proven better, not worse, protectors

of

individual liberties than the federal government.

Was it because the threat of established religion had proven so dangerous

to

the modern world? In 1948, precisely the opposite argument could be made.
It is now obvious, from the example of those decent and tolerant nations
which have formally established a particular Christian denomination as the
state religion, that the horrors of holocausts, gulags and persecution

were

not caused by established churches in nations.

Was it because state governments were threatening to create some sort of
theocracies? No. More than a century after state governments had
voluntarily -- without any pressure from any of the branches of the

federal

government -- ended established state churches, there was virtually no
sentiment to make non-denominational New Hampshire into a

Congregationalist

state.

The real cause is as simple as it is awful: Leftists loath the concept of

a

Blessed Creator of the Universe. No one, no one at all, may be superior

to

the ideology of man. This Deiphobia is the salient fact of all Leftists:
Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Mao, Mussolini and every other thug on the radical
Left recoils in horror at the image of a Lord of the Universe.

Ironically, the very purging of religion from state governments hurt,

rather

than helped, those religious minorities whom it was ostensibly intended to
protect. When each state is allowed to approach religion in its own way,
then people faithful to one region can choose to live in a particular

state

or region or city.

The Mormon migration to the Rocky Mountains insured that Utah was not
hateful toward Mormons. Jewish immigration to New York and other big cites
insured that these state governments were not anti-Semitic or hostile

toward

Judaism. Catholics immigrants and voters -- Irish, Italian and Polish
voters, among others -- made anti-Catholic bigotry political poison.

The consequences of federalizing religion and government insures that the
spirit of toleration which naturally flowed from each state retaining
authority over these issues and each citizen having the power to move from
state to state will become testy, tense and, perhaps, totalitarian.

As bad as the federalization of this issue has been, the judicialization

of

the issue is worse. The First Amendment addresses what Congress may do.
When the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted -- that very hook used by

Leftists

to bring the unnecessary and redundant protections of the Bill of Rights
into state government -- does the Fourteenth Amendment give any inkling of
how the federal government is supposed to implement this amendment?

Yes, it does. Section Five says exactly how the Fourteenth Amendment is
supposed to be implemented, and it says: "Congress shall have the power,

by

appropriate legislation, to enforce the provisions of this article."

Here is a novel concept: why not have Congress, and not the Supreme

Court,

determine how to enforce the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment? When
the Constitution, when the Billl of Rights, when the Fourteenth Amendment
were adopted, the American people presumed that Congress -- who has the
exclusive authority under the Constitution to make laws -- might...make
laws!

What if Congress passed a law, pursuant to the power which the Fourteenth
Amendment places in Congress alone, that allows reasonable, clear,

tolerant

and respected policies toward religion and government? To some people,

that

would be a nightmare. To other people -- to all of us serfs -- it would

be

liberation.




--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the

state

at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.


.

User: "Dave Thompson"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 22 Sep 2003 12:14:33 PM
"dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com> wrote in message
news:vms9j9it8n3s29@corp.supernews.com...

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2583.html
Courts, Churches and the Constitution
by Bruce Walker

The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states in the
first place.

Then I bet the author wouldn't have a problem with states endorsing atheism.
He better not, otherwise his strawman falls over without any effort.
Obviously the same goes for secularism or religious neutrality - which is
exactly what the states are doing now despite the efforts of the loony
religious right. What the author has done unwittingly is to defeat his own
argument because if he believes a state can advocate a belief in god then he
has to accept that this belief will be in non-existence or neutrality. To
complain that it must be advocacy of Christianity tips his hand.
.

User: ""

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 04:58:51 AM
"dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com> wrote:
One should know who they are dealing with.
The following is interesting
From: "Dana" <yourname@exampleDO-DO-DO.comDAH-DAH-DAH>
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Newdow loses again, pledge is constitutional.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:54:33 -0900
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Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: Tenth Amendment is completely ignored
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:18:47 -0500
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From: "dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com>
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Subject: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:36:42 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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.

User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 21 Sep 2003 07:17:34 PM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:36:42 -0500, dpr wrote
(in message <vms9j9it8n3s29@corp.supernews.com>):

The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states in the
first place.

And then the United States of America defeated the states in rebellion and -
to ensure that that silly nonsense wouldn't happen again, forced the 13th,
14th and 15th Amendments.
So what was is not now.
So goes history and the changes that happen.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
"Swinehood hath no remedy." - Sidney Lanier
.
User: "James Stutts"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 12:42:39 AM
"Gray Shockley" <gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB93A9CE001916DF15F0C670@news-south.giganews.com...

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:36:42 -0500, dpr wrote
(in message <vms9j9it8n3s29@corp.supernews.com>):

The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states in

the

first place.



And then the United States of America defeated the states in rebellion

and -
The Northern States defeated the Southern States and have paid for it ever
since, since
their power was lost as well.

to ensure that that silly nonsense wouldn't happen again, forced the 13th,
14th and 15th Amendments.

You have a problem with government by consent of the governed, don't you?
That and the letter of the law of the land.
Might makes right.
BTW, those Amendments do not say what you think they say and do not grant
powers you think they grant.


So what was is not now.

So goes history and the changes that happen.

Has the Constitution been repealed?
JCS
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 06:42:11 AM
"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:

"Gray Shockley" <gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB93A9CE001916DF15F0C670@news-south.giganews.com...

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:36:42 -0500, dpr wrote
(in message <vms9j9it8n3s29@corp.supernews.com>):

The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states in the
first place.


And then the United States of America defeated the states in rebellion and -


The Northern States defeated the Southern States and have paid for it ever
since, since their power was lost as well.

Yep.

to ensure that that silly nonsense wouldn't happen again, forced the 13th,
14th and 15th Amendments.


You have a problem with government by consent of the governed, don't you?

The governed generally consent. If you don't, you are welcome to
leave.

That and the letter of the law of the land.

The law of the land is what the courts say it is. So says the letter
of the law of the land.

Might makes right.

Glad you think so.

BTW, those Amendments do not say what you think they say and do not grant
powers you think they grant.

The courts think so, and the people who proposed and passed the
amendments thought so.

So what was is not now.

So goes history and the changes that happen.


Has the Constitution been repealed?

Just amended. With the post-Civil War amendments BY INTENT changing
the balance of power between the states and the Fed.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "James Stutts"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 08:21:10 PM
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:r5c0nvcofp9abbv2n7h896dkerjts5run8@4ax.com...

"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:

"Gray Shockley" <gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB93A9CE001916DF15F0C670@news-south.giganews.com...

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:36:42 -0500, dpr wrote
(in message <vms9j9it8n3s29@corp.supernews.com>):

The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states in

the

first place.


And then the United States of America defeated the states in rebellion

and -


The Northern States defeated the Southern States and have paid for it

ever

since, since their power was lost as well.


Yep.

Conquest may make a thing, but it doesn't make it right. The issue of
secession was never legally
settled and prior to Lincoln, it was considered a power left the States.


to ensure that that silly nonsense wouldn't happen again, forced the

13th,

14th and 15th Amendments.


You have a problem with government by consent of the governed, don't you?


The governed generally consent. If you don't, you are welcome to
leave.

Better yet: I vote. States have threatened to leave before. We know how
that worked out when a few
actually tried it.


That and the letter of the law of the land.


The law of the land is what the courts say it is. So says the letter
of the law of the land.

The law of the land is written in plain English for all to see. The letter
of the law of the land
does not say the above.


Might makes right.


Glad you think so.

No, I don't.


BTW, those Amendments do not say what you think they say and do not grant
powers you think they grant.


The courts think so, and the people who proposed and passed the
amendments thought so.

The courts - today - say so. Courts have thought many things in the past
that have since
changed.


So what was is not now.

So goes history and the changes that happen.


Has the Constitution been repealed?


Just amended. With the post-Civil War amendments BY INTENT changing
the balance of power between the states and the Fed.

Not to the extent that the 10th has changed. Frankly, Amendments voted at
gunpoint are suspect.
You extend the 14th in the same way Congress has extended the Commerce
Clause.
JCS
.
User: "dpr"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 08:51:39 PM
"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote in message
news:vn1s63blnjim07@corp.supernews.com...


"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:r5c0nvcofp9abbv2n7h896dkerjts5run8@4ax.com...

"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:

"Gray Shockley" <gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB93A9CE001916DF15F0C670@news-south.giganews.com...

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:36:42 -0500, dpr wrote
(in message <vms9j9it8n3s29@corp.supernews.com>):

The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states

in

the

first place.


And then the United States of America defeated the states in

rebellion

and -


The Northern States defeated the Southern States and have paid for it

ever

since, since their power was lost as well.


Yep.


Conquest may make a thing, but it doesn't make it right. The issue of
secession was never legally
settled and prior to Lincoln, it was considered a power left the States.

And it still is. Almost every state has a secession movement, some states
like Alaska and Hawaii have larger secession movements than others.



to ensure that that silly nonsense wouldn't happen again, forced the

13th,

14th and 15th Amendments.


You have a problem with government by consent of the governed, don't

you?


The governed generally consent. If you don't, you are welcome to
leave.


Better yet: I vote. States have threatened to leave before. We know how
that worked out when a few
actually tried it.


That and the letter of the law of the land.


The law of the land is what the courts say it is. So says the letter
of the law of the land.


The law of the land is written in plain English for all to see. The

letter

of the law of the land
does not say the above.

Correct the law of the land is the federal CONSTITUTION, which clearly
states that both the feds and the states have their own sphere of influence.
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 10:55:28 PM
"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:

The Northern States defeated the Southern States and have paid for it ever
since, since their power was lost as well.


Yep.


Conquest may make a thing, but it doesn't make it right.

"Right" is a question of morality. I don't argue morality, especially
with ideologues.

The issue of secession was never legally
settled and prior to Lincoln, it was considered a power left the States.

By those in the South it was. Obviously the North felt differently.

That and the letter of the law of the land.


The law of the land is what the courts say it is. So says the letter
of the law of the land.


The law of the land is written in plain English for all to see.

It is written in 18th century legal English.

Might makes right.


Glad you think so.


No, I don't.

Then why did you say it?

BTW, those Amendments do not say what you think they say and do not grant
powers you think they grant.


The courts think so, and the people who proposed and passed the
amendments thought so.


The courts - today - say so. Courts have thought many things in the past
that have since changed.

Not that many, actually.

So what was is not now.

So goes history and the changes that happen.


Has the Constitution been repealed?


Just amended. With the post-Civil War amendments BY INTENT changing
the balance of power between the states and the Fed.


Not to the extent that the 10th has changed. Frankly, Amendments voted at
gunpoint are suspect.

Suspect all you want. They are law.

You extend the 14th in the same way Congress has extended the Commerce
Clause.

I didn't do it. Congress and the courts did it. But then, the
amendment says that Congress could do so, and Congress specified that
the court would decide the limits in certain areas.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "James Stutts"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 11:10:29 PM
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:o352nv8cr92e9qs2iko4e1nifv6br0fvc5@4ax.com...

"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:

The Northern States defeated the Southern States and have paid for it

ever

since, since their power was lost as well.


Yep.


Conquest may make a thing, but it doesn't make it right.


"Right" is a question of morality. I don't argue morality, especially
with ideologues.

I'm arguing the letter of the Constitution.


The issue of secession was never legally
settled and prior to Lincoln, it was considered a power left the States.


By those in the South it was. Obviously the North felt differently.

Actually, many Northern states had considered it for one reason or another.


That and the letter of the law of the land.


The law of the land is what the courts say it is. So says the letter
of the law of the land.


The law of the land is written in plain English for all to see.


It is written in 18th century legal English.

Which, as a form of art, attempted to explain itself in as simple a manner
possible - unlike present day legal language.


Might makes right.


Glad you think so.


No, I don't.


Then why did you say it?

I was just attempting to clarify your stance.


BTW, those Amendments do not say what you think they say and do not

grant

powers you think they grant.


The courts think so, and the people who proposed and passed the
amendments thought so.


The courts - today - say so. Courts have thought many things in the past
that have since changed.


Not that many, actually.

Yes, actually.


So what was is not now.

So goes history and the changes that happen.


Has the Constitution been repealed?


Just amended. With the post-Civil War amendments BY INTENT changing
the balance of power between the states and the Fed.


Not to the extent that the 10th has changed. Frankly, Amendments voted

at

gunpoint are suspect.


Suspect all you want. They are law.

You really do have a problem with government by consent of the governed.


You extend the 14th in the same way Congress has extended the Commerce
Clause.


I didn't do it. Congress and the courts did it. But then, the
amendment says that Congress could do so, and Congress specified that
the court would decide the limits in certain areas.

By your arguments you do. Funny, as a conservative, I'm the one usually
accused (wrongly)
of being in lockstep with whatever the government does. That has not been
the case with conservatives in general.
Frankly, I find your lack of interest in the ideals this country was founded
on sad.
JCS
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 01:36:23 AM
"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:

"Right" is a question of morality. I don't argue morality, especially
with ideologues.


I'm arguing the letter of the Constitution.

The letter of the Constitution does not address Right, or for that
matter, Might.

The issue of secession was never legally
settled and prior to Lincoln, it was considered a power left the States.


By those in the South it was. Obviously the North felt differently.


Actually, many Northern states had considered it for one reason or another.

States do not consider. People consider. People in some Northern
states did consider secession in various forms. But those people were
generally of the minority party and sympathetic to the South, so of
course they would agree with the South's views.

The law of the land is written in plain English for all to see.


It is written in 18th century legal English.


Which, as a form of art, attempted to explain itself in as simple a manner
possible

[belly laugh]

Might makes right.


Glad you think so.


No, I don't.


Then why did you say it?


I was just attempting to clarify your stance.

Normally one does that with questions, not with statements.

Not to the extent that the 10th has changed. Frankly, Amendments voted at
gunpoint are suspect.


Suspect all you want. They are law.


You really do have a problem with government by consent of the governed.

I believe in government by law and not by men. The consent of the
governed is general; you don't get to withhold consent from individual
acts of government at your discretion.

Frankly, I find your lack of interest in the ideals this country was founded
on sad.

I have plenty of interest in those ideals. I am an avid student of
history, though I focus more on the Civil War since I discovered how
much the ideals of this country changed at that time. Understanding
the Founders requires more effort to distance ourselves from where we
are now, and also requires a thorough grounding in the philosophers of
the era, not to mention Blackstone's tome. It also requires an
understanding of British history from the Reformation to the time of
the Revolution, because that history shaped their opinions on matters
of government and religion.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "James Stutts"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 02:49:54 AM
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:51e2nv898v9lh6ktd285h6subknr5ahhc6@4ax.com...

"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:

"Right" is a question of morality. I don't argue morality, especially
with ideologues.


I'm arguing the letter of the Constitution.


The letter of the Constitution does not address Right, or for that
matter, Might.

It most certainly does address *right* and was designed to be a bullwark
against "might".


The issue of secession was never legally
settled and prior to Lincoln, it was considered a power left the

States.


By those in the South it was. Obviously the North felt differently.


Actually, many Northern states had considered it for one reason or

another.


States do not consider. People consider. People in some Northern

States most certainly consider things. You do know you have a state
government that makes decisions?

states did consider secession in various forms. But those people were

No, *states* - as in "state governments"- considered it.

generally of the minority party and sympathetic to the South, so of
course they would agree with the South's views.

The secession arguments and threats from the Northern states *long* precede
the Civil War and have nothing to do with it.


The law of the land is written in plain English for all to see.


It is written in 18th century legal English.


Which, as a form of art, attempted to explain itself in as simple a

manner

possible


[belly laugh]

If you don't understand constitutional law and the practice of it, I can
recommend a few good books on the subject.
Including a famous one written by a former Harvard professor of history.


Might makes right.


Glad you think so.


No, I don't.


Then why did you say it?


I was just attempting to clarify your stance.


Normally one does that with questions, not with statements.

Establishing what you believe, after I *have* asked the question, does not
imply
my support of the statement and doesn't require another question.


Not to the extent that the 10th has changed. Frankly, Amendments

voted at

gunpoint are suspect.


Suspect all you want. They are law.


You really do have a problem with government by consent of the governed.


I believe in government by law and not by men. The consent of the

You believe in a government by men, or you wouldn't support the idea that
the government
may do whatever it wants.

governed is general; you don't get to withhold consent from individual
acts of government at your discretion.

I am able to vote and voice my opinion to my representatives in government.
Do you do this?
Doesn't sound like it.


Frankly, I find your lack of interest in the ideals this country was

founded

on sad.


I have plenty of interest in those ideals. I am an avid student of
history, though I focus more on the Civil War since I discovered how
much the ideals of this country changed at that time. Understanding
the Founders requires more effort to distance ourselves from where we
are now, and also requires a thorough grounding in the philosophers of
the era, not to mention Blackstone's tome. It also requires an
understanding of British history from the Reformation to the time of
the Revolution, because that history shaped their opinions on matters
of government and religion.

I suggest Lock, Burke, Mill and The Federalist to start. The outstanding
"Democracy in America" as well.
JCS
.
User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 02:55:37 AM
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 2:49:54 -0500, James Stutts wrote
(in message <vn2iuvr1q21i7e@corp.supernews.com>):

I suggest Lock, Burke, Mill and The Federalist to start. The outstanding
"Democracy in America" as well.

JCS

If anyone wants to take PooBoy up on this, "Locke" is the author to which
Sweet Pants Stutts was trying to refer.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one
individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take
command. Very often, that individual is crazy. -Author Unk
.
User: "JoettaB"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 04:27:15 AM
"Gray Shockley" <gray@compcomm.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB96B8290013C9B4164B0470@text.giganews.com...

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 2:49:54 -0500, James Stutts wrote
(in message <vn2iuvr1q21i7e@corp.supernews.com>):

I suggest Lock, Burke, Mill and The Federalist to start.

The outstanding

"Democracy in America" as well.

JCS



If anyone wants to take PooBoy up on this, "Locke" is the

author to which

Sweet Pants Stutts was trying to refer.



Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always

one

individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take
command. Very often, that individual is crazy. -Author Unk

I could, but he's beginning to bore me. Sorry. You're on
your own.
.
User: "James Stutts"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 10:08:35 PM
"JoettaB" <joetta_bragg@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0ZWdnbNxw8vp_uyiU-KYgg@wideopenwest.com...


"Gray Shockley" <gray@compcomm.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB96B8290013C9B4164B0470@text.giganews.com...

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 2:49:54 -0500, James Stutts wrote
(in message <vn2iuvr1q21i7e@corp.supernews.com>):

I suggest Lock, Burke, Mill and The Federalist to start.

The outstanding

"Democracy in America" as well.

JCS



If anyone wants to take PooBoy up on this, "Locke" is the

author to which

Sweet Pants Stutts was trying to refer.



Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always

one

individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take
command. Very often, that individual is crazy. -Author Unk



I could, but he's beginning to bore me. Sorry. You're on
your own.

Oh, I'm already bored with you people. Good day, madam.
JCS



.


User: "James Stutts"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 10:08:14 PM
"Gray Shockley" <gray@compcomm.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB96B8290013C9B4164B0470@text.giganews.com...

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 2:49:54 -0500, James Stutts wrote
(in message <vn2iuvr1q21i7e@corp.supernews.com>):

I suggest Lock, Burke, Mill and The Federalist to start. The

outstanding

"Democracy in America" as well.

JCS



If anyone wants to take PooBoy up on this, "Locke" is the author to which
Sweet Pants Stutts was trying to refer.

It's called a *typo*, you bizarre nut. Calling someone "sweet pants" just
makes you appear
disturbed.
JCS
.








User: ""

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 04:59:19 AM
"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:
One should know who they are dealing with.
The following is interesting
From: "Dana" <yourname@exampleDO-DO-DO.comDAH-DAH-DAH>
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberalism,alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: Newdow loses again, pledge is constitutional.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:54:33 -0900
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Complaints-To:

*********************************************
From: "James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net>
Newsgroups:
alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberalism,alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: Re: Tenth Amendment is completely ignored
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:18:47 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Complaints-To:

**************************************************
From: "dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberalism,alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:36:42 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Complaints-To:

.
User: "James Stutts"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 08:17:36 PM
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fb60nv0um20je5jkrp36juaph26n9ehd6e@4ax.com...

"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:


One should know who they are dealing with.

Well, we've established that you are an idiot. One should know who one is
dealing with, after all.

The following is interesting

Not really.
JCS
.

User: "Rico"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 09:25:00 AM
In article <fb60nv0um20je5jkrp36juaph26n9ehd6e@4ax.com>,
wrote:

"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:


One should know who they are dealing with.
The following is interesting

From: "Dana" <yourname@exampleDO-DO-DO.comDAH-DAH-DAH>
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberalism,alt.politics
.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.soci
ety.liberalism
Subject: Newdow loses again, pledge is constitutional.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:54:33 -0900
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Complaints-To:


*********************************************
From: "James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net>
Newsgroups:
alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberalism,alt.politics.rep
ublicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.
liberalism
Subject: Re: Tenth Amendment is completely ignored
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:18:47 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Complaints-To:

**************************************************
From: "dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberalism,alt.politics.rep
ublicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.
liberalism
Subject: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:36:42 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Complaints-To:

What that Dana has one version of OE, while James and dpr seem to have a
later version. Did you know when you upgrade IE you also get an upgrade to
OE. Amazing isn't it how versioning works.
.
User: "JoettaB"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 23 Sep 2003 02:29:39 PM
"Rico" <rico_001@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vn0lsu3e5eii72@corp.supernews.com...

In article <fb60nv0um20je5jkrp36juaph26n9ehd6e@4ax.com>,

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:


One should know who they are dealing with.
The following is interesting

From: "Dana" <yourname@exampleDO-DO-DO.comDAH-DAH-DAH>
Newsgroups:


alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.lib

eralism,alt.politics


.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa

..republican,alt.soci

ety.liberalism
Subject: Newdow loses again, pledge is constitutional.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:54:33 -0900
Organization: Posted via Supernews,

http://www.supernews.com

X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Complaints-To:


*********************************************
From: "James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net>
Newsgroups:


alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberal

ism,alt.politics.rep


ublicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.rep

ublican,alt.society.

liberalism
Subject: Re: Tenth Amendment is completely ignored
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:18:47 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews,

http://www.supernews.com

X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Complaints-To:


**************************************************
From: "dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com>
Newsgroups:


alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberal

ism,alt.politics.rep


ublicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.rep

ublican,alt.society.

liberalism
Subject: The Establishment Clause was never intended to

apply to the states

Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:36:42 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews,

http://www.supernews.com

X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Complaints-To:



What that Dana has one version of OE, while James and dpr

seem to have a

later version. Did you know when you upgrade IE you also

get an upgrade to

OE. Amazing isn't it how versioning works.

Did you consider the date differences? Let's examine a more
recent Dana posting:
From: "Dana" <#####@example.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberali
sm,alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,al
t.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: CA recall is on again.
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:10:11 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID: <vmngsine5ile0d@corp.supernews.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Complaints-To:

.
User: "Rico"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 01:29:19 PM
In article <ZBCdnQPCBPe4Au2iXTWJhg@wideopenwest.com>, "JoettaB" <joetta_bragg@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:

"Rico" <rico_001@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vn0lsu3e5eii72@corp.supernews.com...

In article <fb60nv0um20je5jkrp36juaph26n9ehd6e@4ax.com>,

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

"James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net> wrote:


One should know who they are dealing with.
The following is interesting

From: "Dana" <yourname@exampleDO-DO-DO.comDAH-DAH-DAH>
Newsgroups:


alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.lib

eralism,alt.politics


.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa

..republican,alt.soci

ety.liberalism
Subject: Newdow loses again, pledge is constitutional.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:54:33 -0900
Organization: Posted via Supernews,

http://www.supernews.com

X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Complaints-To:


*********************************************
From: "James Stutts" <stuttjc@knology.net>
Newsgroups:


alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberal

ism,alt.politics.rep


ublicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.rep

ublican,alt.society.

liberalism
Subject: Re: Tenth Amendment is completely ignored
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:18:47 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews,

http://www.supernews.com

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**************************************************
From: "dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com>
Newsgroups:


alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberal

ism,alt.politics.rep


ublicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.rep

ublican,alt.society.

liberalism
Subject: The Establishment Clause was never intended to

apply to the states

Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:36:42 -0800
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What that Dana has one version of OE, while James and dpr

seem to have a

later version. Did you know when you upgrade IE you also

get an upgrade to

OE. Amazing isn't it how versioning works.


Did you consider the date differences? Let's examine a more
recent Dana posting:

From: "Dana" <#####@example.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.education,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.liberali
sm,alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,al
t.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: CA recall is on again.
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:10:11 -0800
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Hmm, consider this link:
http://www.atstarr.com/newsreaders/gstats/ngstat.php?group=microsoft.public.
powerpoint
I wonder are you saying dana or whoever is the only person with this
version of OE?
What version of IE do you use? If you use IE 6, you have the same version
of OE that dana has.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 03:15:50 PM
(Rico) wrote:

:|Hmm, consider this link:
:|http://www.atstarr.com/newsreaders/gstats/ngstat.php?group=microsoft.public.
:|powerpoint
:|
:|I wonder are you saying dana or whoever is the only person with this
:|version of OE?
:|
:|What version of IE do you use? If you use IE 6, you have the same version
:|of OE that dana has.

It becomes academic because time will expose he facts sooner or later.
There is little doubt that "dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com> and
"Dana" <#####@example.com> are one and the same.
A number of people have made the connection. He didn't try very hard to
disguise himself
Time will determine if the other fella is a separate entity or Dana as
well.
It is interesting based on topic, position and similar way of posting along
with software, etc how alike all three are.
.
User: "JoettaB"

Title: Re: The Establishment Clause was never intended to apply to the states 24 Sep 2003 05:48:49 PM
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:0hu3nvcarteh1lmdc09n8ak36a6nm27tai@4ax.com...

rico_001@hotmail.com (Rico) wrote:

:|Hmm, consider this link:


:|http://www.atstarr.com/newsreaders/gstats/ngstat.php?grou

p=microsoft.public.

:|powerpoint
:|
:|I wonder are you saying dana or whoever is the only

person with this

:|version of OE?
:|
:|What version of IE do you use? If you use IE 6, you

have the same version

:|of OE that dana has.


It becomes academic because time will expose he facts

sooner or later.


There is little doubt that "dpr" <%%%**&&@dems.com> and
"Dana" <#####@example.com> are one and the same.

A number of people have made the connection. He didn't try

very hard to

disguise himself

Time will determine if the other fella is a separate

entity or Dana as

well.

It is interesting based on topic, position and similar way

of posting along

with software, etc how alike all three are.

As well as how they continually support and compliment each
other... seems like a case of self-love to me. But, hey,
you're right, only time will tell if the other fella is a
separate entity.
.









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