| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
24 Aug 2005 07:30:31 AM |
| Object: |
Theocracy in action: Jefferson's "wall" was not a prison wall |
Jefferson's "wall" was not a prison wall
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/gaynor/050823
Michael Gaynor
August 23, 2005
Just as Cindy Sheehan has misused her son Casey's noble death to promote
her own extremist views, secular extremist spinners have used Jefferson's
"wall" to promote their own anti-religious purposes and to disassociate
America from its Judeo-Christian heritage.
In Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947), the United States
Supreme Court declared: "The First Amendment has erected a wall between
church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not
approve the slightest breach."
Because: "In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of
religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church
and State.'"
The words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the records of
the deliberations that resulted in the First Amendment. The secular
extremists extracted them out of context from Jefferson's 1802 letter to
the Danbury Anabaptists and then simplistically interpreted them to mandate
governmental neutrality between religion and irreligion (as though doing
what the atheists want is "neutral").
On New Year's Day 1802, then President Thomas Jefferson wrote his much
misunderstood letter to Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S.
Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of
Connecticut.
The body of the letter read:
"The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so
good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist
association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful
and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as
they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them
becomes more and more pleasing.
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man
& his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship,
that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not
opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole
American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of
the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the
progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural
rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social
duties.
"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the
common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your
religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem."
Jefferson repeatedly edited the now controversial second paragraph of the
letter.
Originally, Jefferson put the word "eternal" before "separation" in the
first sentence of the second paragraph.
Jefferson apparently did not view even the kind of separation that he
envisioned as necessarily eternal, or else he would not have deleted that
word.
Perhaps the Everson Court neglected to study the drafting of the letter
they used to bar government from supporting all religions.
[end excerpt]
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Theocracy in action: Jefferson's "wall" was not a prison wall |
24 Aug 2005 12:03:14 PM |
|
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|Another idiot who thinks that just because the words "Seperation of
:|church and state" don't appear in the Constitution, that the idea can't
:|be there.
Who is the "Idiot" you think you are referring to?
You didn't bother to quote any of the material you were addressing
[snip]
:|I think I know why you guys
Which "you guys"
:| crosspost to so many newsgroups. Most
:|usenet clients won't let you crosspost to more than 5 groups.
Actually I have found the number 7 used in some of the Netiquette sites.
My ISP allows for 8.
I usually post to 7 on rare occasions 8 but mostly 7 and a topic that is a
current topic in each of the ones I post to.
It allows more people to participate if they wish to
:|} So when
:|we want to answer you, we have to figure out which ones we want to
:|delete.
Well if you are addressing me, I read and post from
alt.politics.usa.constitution about 90% and read and post from
alt.education about 10% of the time
:|Most people will just say 'the hell with it' and not bother
:|responding. That way, you can say all the stupid, bigoted garbage you
:|want and not worry about any inconvienient, obvious, rebuttles that
:|completly destroy your argument. When I see that, it's an instant sign
:|of someone who is afraid of actually having to defend his views
Just in case I am the one you are replying to let me tell you a little
secret
(1) I might be the #1 strict separation of church supported in these
particular newsgroup that I post in. I am definitely among the top 10 or so
since that is basically the only topic I post about, talk about study,
research reply to, etc
(2) The Radical Religious Right/theocrats have been learning and learning
well how to use all aspects of the internet, including the UseNet
newsgroups to further their goals
I am returning the favor
My posts take two forms:
(1) Pro strict separation of church and state and consists of various
things from a variety of sources, including our own website
(2) Keeping people informed about the opposition by posting things the
theocratic radical religious right is doing, posting publishing etc
If you would have notice the title it said "Theocrats in action," thus
identifying who and what it is about, that is, it is something the
opposition is doing or saying. That article was written by another
person, not by me. It was found on what appears to be a very conservative
web site
BTW, there are theocrats, i. e. radical religious right groups and
individuals, thus using that term is not name calling. it is identifying.
The theocrats, the radical religious right do want to set up a theocratic
society. They do not deny it
That is a far cry from the usual labeling or name calling done when people
use terms such as liberals, conservatives, atheists, fundies, and so on and
so forth
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads area of Virginia you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Theocracy in action: Jefferson's "wall" was not a prison wall |
26 Aug 2005 04:05:39 PM |
|
|
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
:|> Another idiot who thinks that just because the words "Seperation of
:|> church and state" don't appear in the Constitution, that the idea can't
:|> be there. The establishment clause works both ways. It protects
:|> religion from the government AND it protects the government from
:|> religion.
:|
:|As I've said elsewhere,
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proof.
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propaganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate with
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are attempting
to clarify.
*****************************************************************
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Theocracy in action: Jefferson's "wall" was not a prison wall |
27 Aug 2005 12:40:40 AM |
|
|
wrote:
If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
Like your claim that the Constitutional framers took a vote on
abolishing the states that failed to pass by only one vote?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial.
Like the evidence lacking to support your bogus claim that the
Constitutional framers took a vote on abolishing the states that failed
to pass by only one vote?
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propaganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate with
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are attempting
to clarify.
Like you? Like your claim that the Constitutional framers took a vote
on abolishing the states that failed to pass by only one vote?
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Theocracy in action: Jefferson's "wall" was not a prison wall |
02 Sep 2005 11:10:40 AM |
|
|
Here dude
come on and speak up in the Hampton Roads Separation of Church and State
Yahoo Group. After all you are a member
From Lauren Floyd
Your Organizer, Lauren Floyd, sent the following message to the
members of The Norfolk/Va. B. Separation of Church and State
Meetup Group:
Hello,
We have a VIP at last. We need your HELP.
Ellery Schempp will visit our area on Friday, October 14th.
It'll be either a friendly chat or he'll serve as a formal
speaker. It all depends upon the audience we turn out.
Please confirm for the next Separation of Church and State
Meetup. Follow the link below. Join us to plan a great first
group event.
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/events/4747976/
Find out about Ellery Schemp here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellery_Schempp
We are going to need assistance communicating with members,
notifying other groups, placing ads, confirming a venue,
gathering brochures, etc.
Jim Allison, Robert Clapp, and I will be working on some of
these items before the September Meetup. If you can get in
touch before then, please do so. If you can't be with us next
Thursday (Sept. 8th) , please get in touch through the Meetup
site or by direct email.
Thank You,
Lauren Floyd
What: The Norfolk/Va. B. Separation of Church and State
September Meetup
When: Thursday, September 8 at 7:00PM
Where: Shoney's Family Restaurants
6667 E Virginia Beach Blvd
Norfolk VA 23502
(757) 461-4068
-----------------------------------------------------------------
To visit The Norfolk/Va. B. Separation of Church and State
Meetup Group, go here:
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
If you'd like to take part in a discussion, your Organizer also
posted this message to your Group's Message Boards:
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/boards/
**************************************************************************
From jim
Over the next few days I will be posting items, Talks given by, articles
by him or about him or URLs to those same by or about our guest VIP that
we will have on the evening of Friday October 14th so that members can
become better acquainted with Ellery Schempp.
BTW, Ellery is a member of and does post and join in on discussions at our
Yahoo Group Hampton Roads Separation of Church and State site:
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
Do log on here at the meetup group
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
to find out more about Ellery and log onto the Hampton Roads Yahoo site to
join in a discussion with him before he arrived here in October
It's not every day that there is an opportunity before hand to actually
have discussions with a speaker/guest before he arrives.
******************************************************************************
BTW a person don't have to be a member of either the Hampton Roads
Separation of Church and State Yahoo group or the Norfolk/Va. B.
Separation of Church and State Meetup group to Attend the October 14, 2005
event, but we would hope you might consider it joining either or both.
##########################################################
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Theocracy in action: Jefferson's "wall" was not a prison wall |
07 Sep 2005 11:51:47 AM |
|
|
Here dude
come on and speak up in the Hampton Roads Separation of Church and State
Yahoo Group. After all you are a member
From Lauren Floyd
Your Organizer, Lauren Floyd, sent the following message to the
members of The Norfolk/Va. B. Separation of Church and State
Meetup Group:
Hello,
We have a VIP at last. We need your HELP.
Ellery Schempp will visit our area on Friday, October 14th.
It'll be either a friendly chat or he'll serve as a formal
speaker. It all depends upon the audience we turn out.
Please confirm for the next Separation of Church and State
Meetup. Follow the link below. Join us to plan a great first
group event.
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/events/4747976/
Find out about Ellery Schemp here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellery_Schempp
We are going to need assistance communicating with members,
notifying other groups, placing ads, confirming a venue,
gathering brochures, etc.
Jim Allison, Robert Clapp, and I will be working on some of
these items before the September Meetup. If you can get in
touch before then, please do so. If you can't be with us next
Thursday (Sept. 8th) , please get in touch through the Meetup
site or by direct email.
Thank You,
Lauren Floyd
What: The Norfolk/Va. B. Separation of Church and State
September Meetup
When: Thursday, September 8 at 7:00PM
Where: Shoney's Family Restaurants
6667 E Virginia Beach Blvd
Norfolk VA 23502
(757) 461-4068
-----------------------------------------------------------------
To visit The Norfolk/Va. B. Separation of Church and State
Meetup Group, go here:
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
If you'd like to take part in a discussion, your Organizer also
posted this message to your Group's Message Boards:
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/boards/
**************************************************************************
From jim
Over the next few days I will be posting items, Talks given by, articles
by him or about him or URLs to those same by or about our guest VIP that
we will have on the evening of Friday October 14th so that members can
become better acquainted with Ellery Schempp.
BTW, Ellery is a member of and does post and join in on discussions at our
Yahoo Group Hampton Roads Separation of Church and State site:
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
Do log on here at the meetup group
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
to find out more about Ellery and log onto the Hampton Roads Yahoo site to
join in a discussion with him before he arrived here in October
It's not every day that there is an opportunity before hand to actually
have discussions with a speaker/guest before he arrives.
******************************************************************************
BTW a person don't have to be a member of either the Hampton Roads
Separation of Church and State Yahoo group or the Norfolk/Va. B.
Separation of Church and State Meetup group to Attend the October 14, 2005
event, but we would hope you might consider it joining either or both.
##########################################################
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