"Bob LeChevalier" <

In 2003, in Wisconsin, 257 scored between 750 and 800 on the Verbal,
and 263 scored between 750 and 800 on Math, each around 6% of the
total 4500 taking the test. In Wisconsin, it appears that a
relatively low percent of students take the test.

Nationally, there were 25114 verbal and 30440 math scores between 750
and 800, each around 2% of the 1.4 million tests that were taken.

Nationally, of those scores over 750, there were only 897 perfect 1600
scores in the nation, 3% of the math scores between 750 and 800:
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/08/26/sprj.sch.sat.scores.ap/
If Wisconsin was proportionate, then there would have only been 7 or 8
perfect 1600s in the entire state of Wisconsin last year.

Bob, you are obviously unaware that the states near WI are not in SAT
country. MI and WI are ACT states. However, many students take both.

In article <u7rui0lsdtv796q33g78apnnsm134rplbl@4ax.com>,
Bob LeChevalier <

The SAT writing test won't be "creative writing" at all, or "fiction".
The student will have an hour to write an essay on an issue,
presenting a point of view, and showing critical thinking skills and
ideally evidence and examples.

The first part of good critical thinking is LOGIC, and
I see little understanding of that. The part of logic
which is best understood is extremely precise and formal;

Similar essays are found on the GRE,

the NY Regents test, the NAEP, and the Mass teacher competency test.
The essay is score on a 0 to 6 scale as indicated in the following:
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/newsat/writing/essay_scoring.html

I have seen lots of student essays; if you know how to
recognize baloney (or bologna if you are particular),
you catch them quickly. But what are students going
to be able to write if you ask them about their career
hopes in mathematics or science if they do not know
much about the subject matter?

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/newsat/writing/essay.html
has a samples essay question. Based on a famous Edison quote it asks
the student:

Assignment: What is your view on the idea that it takes failure to
achieve success? Plan and write an essay in which you develop your
point of view on this issue. Support your position with reasoning and
examples taken from your reading, studies, experience, or
observations.

I see no benefit for a fiction-writer in answering that question.

I see no way to answer it which is not fiction writing.

I consider this quote to be ridiculous, and so how could
I give examples? Similarly with another quote of his,

"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration."

If you look at the _Sherlock Holmes_ stories, you will
find little perspiration, just "seeing the obvious".

I am considered to be a genius. Seeing the obvious is
not always easy, and one MAY "perspire" a lot in looking
for it, but the hard part is writing it up.

hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message news:<cgo6ek$1dau@odds.stat.purdue.edu>...

In article <8c88725.0408270612.14cb1cef@posting.google.com>,
rwwff <rwwff@yahoo.com> wrote:

hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message news:<cglbvl$11h0@odds.stat.purdue.edu>...

You are arguing about student choices now, and that is a completely
different matter than arguing about what is available or whether the
SATs are adequate. Yes, there will always be lazy kids with parents
who aren't paying attention that will avoid the honors classes in
order to score the easy 'A'. My point is that with an honors A being
scored as a 7, and a regular courses A being scored as a 6; there will
be no sub 6.1 valedictorians, there will be very few kids who score
5.8 - 6.0 while taking no honors courses, and the upper 5% to 2% range
will be cluttered with kids who take honors courses and make B's and
C's.

That has always been the case. Courses change over time. The
preparatory classes tought in 1900 were different than the ones tought
in 1935, just as the ones tought today are different than the ones
tought in 1950.

introduction of electronic aides (computers and calculators); but the
tools is so ubiquitous now, it may just be my particular ludite
instincts working their way to the surface.

I do know that I will *not* be relying upon the schools to teach my
daughter math and science, thats my job. If she gets a little extra
out of school, then so much the better; but it remains primarily my
responsibility as a parent to insure that she can do calculus and
design and execute a analytically meaningful experiment to test a
hypothesis.

Its always been this way. With luck, you'll meet one or two smart
ones while in high school, but the rest are just coasting, trying to
avoid trouble, and collect a paycheck. I've seen the courses they
take to get certified, how they are graded. Not so secret to getting
your teacher's certification, show up at the classes, say as little as
possible, turn in your projects, and forget the class as quickly as
possible.

Are we talking GPA or SAT here, GPA is normally expressed in a range
using a regular "A" as 6 or 4. Do you mean a 6.00 GPA, which would be
decent, if a little lower than what I'd expect. A valedictorian with
a SAT score of 600, that would suck, but I wouldn't say impossible. I
could see someone very smart, with English as a rusty second or third
language being able to do well on project and essay graded classes,
but being unable to complete the SAT in the alloted time. These
special cases are going to be rare, I'd bet well below 1 in 10,000
high school graduates.
As to the harder courses and lower grades issue, yes, thats the way it
works; and if you are stupid enough to let your kid get away with it,
well then, you deserve the result. My parents always pushed me, but
they never would have tolerated me taking easier math and science
classes (not that I didn't ask.) Just ask yourself, which is more
important to a future science/engineering student, class rank, or a
high math SAT and one or more 800's on science/math achievement tests.
My 800 on the chem achievement test was the only thing that really
got a serious reaction from my interviewers for the various colleges.
I don't think I had one comment about class rank either positive or
negative.

I don't disagree with the concept of measuring teaching performance by
overall group performance; though it should be normalized against past
performance of the same group.
On a side note, I should point out that while I went to public school,
I have no intention of sending my daughter to public school. If
people think its expensive or whatever, I ask, which is more important
to you, a new car, or your kids education? They cost about the same.
Which lasts longer? So I do without having two cars in the driveway
and ride my bicycle to the grocery store. I end up with a school and
teachers who have a financial interest in seeing that I am pleased
with the quality of my child's education.

I would be only concerned if the 600 SAT was the best score in the
school; which I doubt. Just because the valedictorian makes a 600,
doesn't mean everyone else in the class made lower.

Then write more, its a skill. And with computers and wordprocessors,
its easy as pie to write lots of stuff on lots of topics. Besides,
the essays are not creative writing as someone else pointed out. They
are "here's a topic, pick a side, provide your reasoning.". In point
of fact, that is exactly the kind of essay I was asked to write in
college when they were determining what amount of English each
freshman would need to take. Its a very easy type of composition to
do.

Thats not the point, the graders don't need to understand the concept
in question in order to tell whether you've presented what you think
you know in a clear and rational manner. These compositions aren't
about getting a "right" answer. They are about testing the persons
ability to communicate in writing.

On 27 Aug 2004 15:44:04 -0500,

What about that class valedictorian I cited with a
total GPA of 600?

You mean SAT score here?

What about the student who takes
hard courses and gets lower grades, but learns more?

What about him or her? Since, in general, gpas are
weighted for honors and AP courses, it is likely that
s/he will get into a good college and get the education
s/he wants and needs.