Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places

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Topic:	Sociology > Education
User:	"CB"
Date:	30 Dec 2003 10:43:10 PM
Object:	Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places

Today's Founder Quote:
"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their
doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the
provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free
exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the
powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe
any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline
has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the
States."
--Thomas Jefferson
When a governmental practice has been "deeply embedded in the history and
tradition of this country," such a practice will not violate the
Establishment Clause because the practice has become part of the "fabric of
our society." See Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 786 (1983). The Ten
Commandments played a significant role in the development of American law.
The incorporation of the Ten Commandments in law and policy pre?dates the
Constitution. This intermingling of the Ten Commandments into American law
and government was long before the appearance of legislative prayers. The
drafters of the First Amendment would never have dreamed they were
abolishing the Decalogue.
--The Ten Commandments in American Law and Government
By Mathew D. Staver www.lc.org
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is
liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17
--
CB
"The Grecians and Romans were strongly possessed of the spirit of liberty
but not the principle, for at the time they were determined not to be slaves
themselves, they employed their power to enslave the rest of mankind."
--Thomas Paine
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	31 Dec 2003 12:29:45 PM

In article <bstk50$1t5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com> "CB" <CB@prayforme.com> writes:
<Today's Founder Quote:
<
<"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
<Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their
<doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the
<provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free
<exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the
<powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe
<any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline
<has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the
<States."
< --Thomas Jefferson
<
And what exactly was ol' TJ's opinion on the effects of the
Fourteenth Amendment on the above arguments?
(helpful hint: his response was extremely brief)
--- cary
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	31 Dec 2003 03:43:44 PM

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

:|In article <bstk50$1t5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com> "CB" <CB@prayforme.com> writes:
:|<Today's Founder Quote:
:|<
:|<"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
:|<Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their
:|<doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the
:|<provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free
:|<exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the
:|<powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe
:|<any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline
:|<has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the
:|<States."
:|< --Thomas Jefferson
:|<
:|
:|And what exactly was ol' TJ's opinion on the effects of the
:|Fourteenth Amendment on the above arguments?
:|
:|
:|(helpful hint: his response was extremely brief)
:|

Well, actually it may have been long, but Like Madison Jefferson did not
have a good speaking voice and with six foot or more of dirt on top of his
box those gathered failed to hear a single utterance that he might have
made, provided he made any at all. (grin)
.

User: "M. Clark"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	31 Dec 2003 02:52:07 PM

Cary Kittrell <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote:

In article <bstk50$1t5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com> "CB" <CB@prayforme.com>
writes: <Today's Founder Quote:
<
<"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
<Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their
<doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the
<provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free
<exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the
<powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe
<any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline
<has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the
<States."
< --Thomas Jefferson
<

And what exactly was ol' TJ's opinion on the effects of the
Fourteenth Amendment on the above arguments?

You know that Jefferson was dead long before the 14th Amendment was
established so what is your goal here - to make sure the dust of
confusion concerning church/state separation issues doesn't settle?
Indeed, you also know that the Supreme Court still refers to Jefferson's
famous church/state separation writing with respect to deciding
church/state separation cases, the Everson opinion being a good,
relatively recent example of this. So Jefferson's death obviously
didn't stop the Court from making unconstitutional decisions as a
consequence of the Court's continued misunderstanding of Jefferson's
writings concerning church/state separation principles.
I cannot cast the first stone but keep in mind that your bitterness
against "christians" left over from your church days will only get you
to the end of a dead end street.
M. Clark

(helpful hint: his response was extremely brief)

--- cary

User: ""
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	01 Jan 2004 07:35:41 AM

(M. Clark) wrote:

:|Cary Kittrell <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote:
:|
:|> In article <bstk50$1t5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com> "CB" <CB@prayforme.com>
:|> writes: <Today's Founder Quote:
:|> <
:|> <"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
:|> <Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their
:|> <doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the
:|> <provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free
:|> <exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the
:|> <powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe
:|> <any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline
:|> <has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the
:|> <States."
:|> < --Thomas Jefferson
:|> <
:|>
:|> And what exactly was ol' TJ's opinion on the effects of the
:|> Fourteenth Amendment on the above arguments?
:|
:|You know that Jefferson was dead long before the 14th Amendment was
:|established so what is your goal here - to make sure the dust of
:|confusion concerning church/state separation issues doesn't settle?

The only one confused is you, and your co-horts, "CB" Buckaroo Bonzai,
Dana/dpr, (Info Junkie), kands00, etc to name just a few.
Informed people know that the 14th Amendment incorporated aspects of the
BORs and applied them to the states, thus making those two quotes of
Jefferson that you so like to post mute with regards to "states rights and
religion. What he said at the time he said it was valid, but ceased to be
valid by incorporation.
Judges know this, lawyers know this, even the vast majority of
conservatives know this. Only certain people like you and some of your
friends don't, thus you and they are the confused ones.

:|Indeed, you also know that the Supreme Court still refers to Jefferson's
:|famous church/state separation writing with respect to deciding
:|church/state separation cases, the Everson opinion being a good,
:|relatively recent example of this.

And has been shown you dozens, upon dozens upon dozens of times, his
unnamed by you, "famous church/state separation writing with respect to
deciding church/state separation cases" was only one of many items they
cited in Everson and following cases. Thus, while Thomas Jefferson's
Danbury Baptist Association letter gets cited, and he even gets partially
quoted, his letter was not the sole foundation of church state
jurisprudence in this country. Not even close to being the sole foundation.

:|So Jefferson's death obviously
:|didn't stop the Court from making unconstitutional decisions as a
:|consequence of the Court's continued misunderstanding of Jefferson's
:|writings concerning church/state separation principles.

Since the court determines constitutionality, they, at least in theory,
cannot make unconstitutional decisions,
The fact that you say their rulings are unconstitutional is totally
irrelevant, since you haven't a clue what you are talking about. You are
not a historian, not a lawyer, not a Constitutional Law scholar or
professor, not a judge or justice.
You are a poorly informed internet troll and nutcase. Somebody that
provides some comic relief to some who like to respond to you at times,
definitely not anyone to ever take seriously.
[snipped your mind reading attempts]

:|M. Clark, internet troll and nutcase

User: "Info Junkie"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	01 Jan 2004 08:09:22 AM

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:35:41 -0500,

wrote:
"snip"

The only one confused is you, and your co-horts, "CB" Buckaroo Bonzai,
Dana/dpr, (Info Junkie), kands00, etc to name just a few.

Provide evidence that I've made any previous comments on this matter or in these
thrreads Since you won't find anything, the following would apply to you:
"When you have nothing, I guess you have only two choices, disappear or focus on
the messenger." --Jailson (Buckeye)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=71i1au82l749pfd65dmuodo96gq8mvp1s4%404ax.com
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	01 Jan 2004 10:36:25 AM

(Info Junkie) wrote:

:|On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:35:41 -0500,

Doesn't have to be on this particular matter as given currently by "CB".
to qualify in my rogues gallery above.
There are similarities in positions and styles which is why you were
included.

:|Since you won't find anything, the following would apply to you:
:|"When you have nothing, I guess you have only two choices, disappear or focus on
:|the messenger." --Jailson (Buckeye)
:|
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=71i1au82l749pfd65dmuodo96gq8mvp1s4%404ax.com

Go back to your preaching in the other thread.
I see you have become a fan of Ambrose Searle AKA Richard Gardiner.
I wonder why that doesn't surprise me.
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote 1/1/04	01 Jan 2004 07:43:58 PM

From www.federalist.com again comes a quotation, inappropriately cited and
ripped from context:
Today's Founder Quote:
"We are, heart and soul, friends to the freedom of the press. It is
however, the prostituted companion of liberty, and somehow or other, we
know not how, its efficient auxiliary. It follows the substance like its
shade; but while a man walks erect, he may observe that his shadow is
almost always in the dirt. It corrupts, it deceives, it inflames. ... They
are in England, they are here, they are everywhere. It is a precious pest,
and a necessary mischief, and there would be no liberty without it."
--Fisher Ames
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We are, heart and soul, friends to the freedom of the press. It is
however, the prostituted companion of liberty, and somehow or other, we
know not how, its efficient auxiliary. It follows the substance like its
shade; but while a man walks erect, he may observe that his shadow is
almost always in the dirt. It corrupts, it deceives, it inflames. It
strips virtue of her honors, and lends to faction its wildfire and its
poisoned arms, and in the end is its own enemy and the usurper's ally, It
would be easy to enlarge on its evils. They are in England, they are here,
they are everywhere. It is a precious pest, and a necessary mischief, and
there would be no liberty without it.
-- Fisher Ames, Review of the Pamphlet on the State of the British
Constitution, 1807
For now, that is all I can find on this obscure bit.
.

User: "Info Junkie"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	02 Jan 2004 08:20:17 PM

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 11:36:25 -0500,

wrote:

bondrock@ifx.net (Info Junkie) wrote:

:|On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:35:41 -0500,

Doesn't have to be on this particular matter as given currently by "CB".
to qualify in my rogues gallery above.
There are similarities in positions and styles which is why you were
included.

IOW, you have no evidence to back your assertion that I'm am a "co-hort(s) of"
any of those you name, not "confused". Understood.

:|Since you won't find anything, the following would apply to you:

:|"When you have nothing, I guess you have only two choices, disappear or focus on
:|the messenger." --Jailson (Buckeye)
:|
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=71i1au82l749pfd65dmuodo96gq8mvp1s4%404ax.com

Go back to your preaching in the other thread.
I see you have become a fan of Ambrose Searle AKA Richard Gardiner.
I wonder why that doesn't surprise me.

Based on your comment above, your quote is apropos, and needs repeating:
"When you have nothing, I guess you have only two choices, disappear or focus on
|the messenger." --buckeye (jailson)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=71i1au82l749pfd65dmuodo96gq8mvp1s4%404ax.com
When it comes to "evidence", you're showing signs of having a duplicitous nature
buckeye (alias jailson), as you've failed to provide evidence I am a "fan" of
this person...a demand for "evidence" on assertions that you insist of those
whom disagree with you.
It appears you're obsessed about this individual, whereas, I've may have read
but a post or two in these NGs.. In the meantime, you've no evidence to the
assertions you've made towards me in these threads. Understood.
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	31 Dec 2003 04:11:17 PM

In article <1g6u25m.9gbkp41y86ypgN%

(M. Clark) writes:
<Cary Kittrell <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote:
<
<> In article <bstk50$1t5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com> "CB" <CB@prayforme.com>
<> writes: <Today's Founder Quote:
<> <
<> <"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
<> <Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their
<> <doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the
<> <provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free
<> <exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the
<> <powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe
<> <any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline
<> <has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the
<> <States."
<> < --Thomas Jefferson
<> <
<>
<> And what exactly was ol' TJ's opinion on the effects of the
<> Fourteenth Amendment on the above arguments?
<
<You know that Jefferson was dead long before the 14th Amendment was
<established so what is your goal here - to make sure the dust of
<confusion concerning church/state separation issues doesn't settle?
<Indeed, you also know that the Supreme Court still refers to Jefferson's
<famous church/state separation writing with respect to deciding
<church/state separation cases, the Everson opinion being a good,
<relatively recent example of this. So Jefferson's death obviously
<didn't stop the Court from making unconstitutional decisions as a
<consequence of the Court's continued misunderstanding of Jefferson's
<writings concerning church/state separation principles.
So in summary:
a) you think the Supremes do, and should,
regard TJ as relevant, only

b) they get him all wrong.

<I cannot cast the first stone but keep in mind that your bitterness
<against "christians" left over from your church days will only get you
<to the end of a dead end street.
Oh, I don't have a trace of bitterness against Christians. Many
people I love dearly are Christians. Several I admire precisely
because of what their Christianity has impelled them to make of
their lives.
I'm only disdainful (not even bitter) with regard to a small subset
who use their version of Christianity as a bludgeon, generally
to bash those whose political or general world views they differ
with. I have little use for sanctimony, nor smug self-righteousness,
and least of all -- seeing that this type seems to quote a LOT
of Old Testament and a smattering of Paul, to taste, but almost
never the actual teachings of Christ -- most of all, I'm disdainful
of hypocrites.
Note, please, that this screed was NOT aimed at you.
-- cary
.

User: "M. Clark"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	01 Jan 2004 10:27:45 AM

Cary Kittrell <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote:

In article <1g6u25m.9gbkp41y86ypgN%idontreply@toemail.com>
idontreply@toemail.com (M. Clark) writes: <Cary Kittrell
<cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote: < <> In article
<bstk50$1t5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com> "CB" <CB@prayforme.com> <> writes:
<Today's Founder Quote:
<> <
<> <"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
<> <Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their
<> <doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the
<> <provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or
<> <free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the
<> <States the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no
<> <power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in
<> <any religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government.
<> <It must then rest with the States."
<> < --Thomas Jefferson
<> <
<>
<> And what exactly was ol' TJ's opinion on the effects of the
<> Fourteenth Amendment on the above arguments?
<
<You know that Jefferson was dead long before the 14th Amendment was
<established so what is your goal here - to make sure the dust of
<confusion concerning church/state separation issues doesn't settle?
<Indeed, you also know that the Supreme Court still refers to Jefferson's
<famous church/state separation writing with respect to deciding
<church/state separation cases, the Everson opinion being a good,
<relatively recent example of this. So Jefferson's death obviously
<didn't stop the Court from making unconstitutional decisions as a
<consequence of the Court's continued misunderstanding of Jefferson's
<writings concerning church/state separation principles.

So in summary:

a) you think the Supremes do, and should,
regard TJ as relevant, only

The Supreme Court is right to research he perspectives of those who
played a role in designing our government. But not only do our basic
reading skills tell us that the scope of the establishment clause of the
1st Amendment applies only to Congress but Jefferson himself understood
the constitutional right of the States to address religious issues as
his writings indicate. So the Court blew it big time when they used
Jefferson's church/state separation writing to justify extending the
scope of the establishment clause to the States. It's as if they were
unaware of some key Jefferson writings on this issue. Note, in fact,
that the key church/state separation cases were decided before computer
searches existed.

b) they get him all wrong.

If you read Jefferson's writings you will understand that our government
was not intended to be a monolithic entity with respect to church/state
separation. The Court got Jefferson wrong. Again, this is probably
because they didn't have computer databases at the time to better
examine his writings.

<I cannot cast the first stone but keep in mind that your bitterness
<against "christians" left over from your church days will only get you
<to the end of a dead end street.

Oh, I don't have a trace of bitterness against Christians. Many
people I love dearly are Christians. Several I admire precisely
because of what their Christianity has impelled them to make of
their lives.

I'm only disdainful (not even bitter) with regard to a small subset
who use their version of Christianity as a bludgeon, generally
to bash those whose political or general world views they differ
with. I have little use for sanctimony, nor smug self-righteousness,
and least of all -- seeing that this type seems to quote a LOT
of Old Testament and a smattering of Paul, to taste, but almost
never the actual teachings of Christ -- most of all, I'm disdainful
of hypocrites.

Note, please, that this screed was NOT aimed at you.

You're right and you're wrong - so you're confused. The Holy Spirit
would be glad to show you how Jesus, Paul and the OT all relate to each
other but you've evidently hardened your spiritual heart to God's
Spirit.
M. Clark

-- cary

User: ""
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	01 Jan 2004 03:36:51 PM

(M. Clark) wrote:

:|The Supreme Court is right to research he perspectives of those who
:|played a role in designing our government. But not only do our basic
:|reading skills tell us that the scope of the establishment clause of the
:|1st Amendment applies only to Congress but Jefferson himself understood
:|the constitutional right of the States to address religious issues as
:|his writings indicate. So the Court blew it big time when they used
:|Jefferson's church/state separation writing to justify extending the
:|scope of the establishment clause to the States. It's as if they were
:|unaware of some key Jefferson writings on this issue. Note, in fact,
:|that the key church/state separation cases were decided before computer
:|searches existed.

nothing ever changes with you does it troll?
From:

(

)
Subject: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid
View: Complete Thread (150 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: misc.education.home-school.christian, alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.politics, alt.education, misc.education
Date: 2003-11-15 07:47:10 PST

(M. Clark) wrote:

How the Everson Court actually defined the Establishment Clause was as
follows:
The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at
least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church.
Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer
one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go
to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a
belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for
entertaining [p*16] or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for
church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small,
can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever
they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice
religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or
secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or
groups, and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against
establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of
separation between church and State." Reynolds v. United States, supra, at
164.
**************************************
It can be added the all 9 justices were in agreement on this definition.
It also cited, considered and provided in full the following in
Appendixes:
James Madison's MEMORIAL AND REMONSTRANCE
AGAINST RELIGIOUS ASSESSMENTS
AND The bill sponsored and supported by Patrick Henry A BILL
ESTABLISHING A PROVISION FOR TEACHERS OF THE
CHRISTIAN RELIGION which Madison got defeated in the Virginia General
Assembly and passed in it's place Jefferson's Bill for religious freedom.
Thus, the rationale they used didn't just rely on Jefferson's letter
containing the metaphor.
Everson v. Bd of Ed defined the Establishment Clause.
Here are the legal and historical footnotes that the court used to pen the
definition:
FOOTNOTES TO EVERSON v. BD OF ED.
http://snurl.com/2pro
**************************************************************

:|If you read Jefferson's writings you will understand that our government
:|was not intended to be a monolithic entity with respect to church/state
:|separation.

Here are the known writings of Jefferson religion, chuch state etc.
The courts were and are aware of every one of these.
THE RELIGIOUS CORRESPONDENCE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON
(Note that Jefferson referred to clergy of all denominations as priests.)
DATE
Adams, John June 11, 1812
Adams, John (from) June 10, 1812
Adams, John (from) June 14, 1812
Adams, John June 15, 1813
Adams, John (from) June 28, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 9, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 16, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 18, 1813
Adams, John August 22, 1813
Adams, John (from) September 14, 1813
Adams, John October 13, 1813
Adams, John (from) November 15, 1813
Adams, John (from) December 25, 1813
Adams, John January 24, 1814
Adams, John (from) February ?, 1814
Adams, John (from) July 16, 1814
Adams, John (from) June 22, 1815
Adams, John (from) August 24, 1815
Adams, John (from) February 2, 1816
Adams, John (from) March 2, 1816
Adams, John April 8, 1816
Adams, John (from) May 3, 1816
Adams, John (from) May 6, 1816
Adams, John August 1, 1816
Adams, John (from) August 9, 1816
Adams, John January 11, 1817
Adams, John May 5, 1817
Adams, John (from) May 18, 1817
Adams, John (from) May 26, 1817
Adams, John March 14, 1820
Adams, John January 22, 1821
Adams, John (from) September 24, 1821
Adams, John April 11, 1823
Adams, John (from) August 15, 1823
Adams, John (from) January 23, 1825
Baldwin, William January 19, 1810
Baltimore Baptist October 17, 1808
Bolling, Mrs. John July 23, 1787
Brown, Dr. Samuel July 14, 1813
Cambell, Joseph C. February 22, 1821
Canby, William (from) August 29, 1813
Canby, William September 18, 1813
Carey, Mathew November 11,1816
Carr, Peter August 10, 1787
Cartwright, Maj. John June 5, 1824
Carver, William December 4, 1823
Clay, Charles January 29, 1815
Cooper, James May 30, 1823
Cooper, Thomas July 9, 1807
Cooper, Thomas February 10, 1814
Cooper, Thomas August 14, 1820
Cooper, Thomas November 2, 1822
Cooper, Thomas December 11, 1823
Compt, Honore Gabriel August 20, 1786
Coxe, Trench May 1, 1794
Danbury Baptist January 1, 1802
Davis, John January 18, 1824
Dickinson, John March 6, 1801
Dowse, Edward April 19, 1803
Dupont, De Nemours April 15, 1811
Edwards, Pierpont July 21, 1801
Engelbrecht, Isaac February 25, 1824
Everett, Edward October 15, 1824
Fishback, James September 27, 1809
Fry, John December 2, 1823
Gallatin, Albert June 16, 1817
Gallatin, Albert February 15, 1818
Gerry, Elbridge January 26, 1799
Gerry, Elbridge March 29, 1801
Granger, Gideon May 3, 1801
Granger, Gideon May 20, 1803
Greenhow, Samuel January 31, 1814
Grotjan, Thomas Jefferson January 10, 1824
Hillard, Capt. Isaac October 9, 1810
Hopkinson, Francis March 13, 1789
Humboldt, Baron Von December 6, 1813
Jay, Gov. James April 7, 1809
Kemp, Francis A. Van der April 25, 1816
Kemp, Francis A. Van der March 16, 1817
Kemp, Francis A. Van der May 1, 1817
Kemp, Francis A. Van der January 11, 1824
Kercheval, Samuel January 19, 1810
Ketocton Baptist October 18, 1808
King, Miles September 26, 1814
Kosciusko, Gen. Thaddeus April 13, 1811
La Fayette, Marq. De May 14, 1817
Leiper, Thomas January 21, 1809
Lincoln, Levi August 26, 1801
Lincoln, Levi January 1, 1802
Logan, George November 12, 1816
Madison, James July 31, 1788
Madison, James June 18, 1789
Madison, James March 2, 1798
Madison, James March 29, 1798
Megear, Michael May 29, 1823
Methodist Episcopal Ch. December 9, 1808
Methodist Episcopal Ch. February 4, 1809
Miller, Rev. Samuel January 23, 1808
Monroe, James May 26, 1800
Moor, Jeremiah August 14, 1800
Nicholas, Wilson C. June 13, 1809
Noah, Rabbi Mordecai M. May 28, 1818
Ogilvie, James August 4, 1811
Onis, Chevalier Luis De April 28, 1814
Patterson, Robert December 27, 1812
Page, John July 15, 1763
Pickering, Timothy February 27, 1821
Price, Dr. January 8, 1789
Pristley, Joseph January 27, 1800
Pristley, Joseph March 21, 1801
Pristley, Joseph June 19, 1802
Pristley, Joseph April 9, 1803
Pristley, Joseph January 29, 1804
Ritchie, Thomas January 21, 1816
Robinson, Moses March 23, 1801
Rush, Benjamin September 23, 1800
Rush, Benjamin April 21, 1803
Rush, Benjamin April 23, 1803
Rutledge, William February 2, 1788
Seymour, Thomas February 11, 1807
Short, William October 31, 1819
Short, William April 13, 1820
Short, William August 4, 1820
Six Baptists Assocs. November 21, 1808
Smith, Mrs. M. Harrison August 6, 1816
Smith, James December 8, 1822
Smith, Thomas Jefferson February 21, 1825
Spafford, Horato Gates March 17, 1814
Spafford, Horato Gates January 10, 1816
Sparks, Rev. Jared November 4, 1820
Story, Rev. Issac December 5, 1801
Styles, Ezra June 25, 1819
Taylor, Gen. Robert May 16, 1820
Thomas, Capt. John November 18, 1807
Thompson, Charles December 17, 1786
Thompson, Charles January 29, 1817
Tickner, George May ?, 1817
Thacher, George January 26, 1824
Volney, C.F.C. De February 8, 1805
Waterhouse, Benjamin October 13, 1815
Waterhouse, Benjamin June 26, 1822
Waterhouse, Benjamin July 19, 1822
Waterhouse, Benjamin January 8, 1825
Weightman, Roger C. June 24, 1826
Wendover, P.H. March 13, 1815
Whittemore, Rev. Thomas June 5, 1822
Williamson, Dr. Hugh January 10, 1801
Woodward, Augustus B. March 24, 1824
Wyceh, John May 19, 1809
Wythe, George August 13, 1786
(Unknowen) June 13, 1814
Appendix
An Act for Establishing Elementary Schools
Anas, The
Autobiography of Thomas Jefferson, The
Notes of an Interview by Samuel Wuitcomb
Notes on Religion
Notes on Virginia, from Query XIV
Notes on Virginia, from Query XVII
Notes on Virginia, from Query XVIII
Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus
Thoughts on Lotteries
Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law?
A Note on Washington's Religion
Report of the Meeting -- University of Virginia
A Declaration by the Representatives of the United States
of America, in General Congress Assembled
**** ****

:|The Court got Jefferson wrong.

Ptove it, you sayignit isn't proof

:|Again, this is probably
:|because they didn't have computer databases at the time to better
:|examine his writings.

[snip]

:|M. Clark, internet troll and nutcase.

LOL, what a joke you are.
The third floor of the USSC building is a huger libaray. It's not open to
the public. However, I have been in that library before. The library is
extremely well stocked for the Justices and their law clerks to use.
In addition to that, they are only a hop skip and jump away from the
Library of Congress.
Unlike you, they didn't lack for information.

User: "M. Clark"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	03 Jan 2004 10:44:40 AM

<jalison@cox.net> wrote:

idontreply@toemail.com (M. Clark) wrote:

nothing ever changes with you does it troll?

From:

(

Nobody was twisting Jefferson's are when he made a simple inference
between the 1st and 10th Amendments that the States have the power to
address religious issues. He indicated this power of the States in two
separate writings AFTER he had written his better known letter
concerning church/state separation to the Danbury Baptist church. So
the bottom line is that the Court cannot use Jefferson's words
concerning church/state separation in the above context without casting
doubt on its understanding of Jefferson's complete understanding of
church/state separation principles.
It appears that the Court simply did not dig deep enough into
Jefferson's writings when it researched church/state separation issues.
Indeed, as I've mentioned elsewhere, consider that the Everson case was
decided before computers and computer databases even existed. So an
"information challenged" Supreme Court was quite possibly unaware that
it didn't even have all the pieces to the puzzle where interpretation of
the scope of the establishment clause is concerned. Also, given the
context of the establishment clause clearly shows that it's scope
applies only to Congress, I also wonder about the possibility of a
scandal.

It also cited, considered and provided in full the following in
Appendixes:
James Madison's MEMORIAL AND REMONSTRANCE
AGAINST RELIGIOUS ASSESSMENTS

AND The bill sponsored and supported by Patrick Henry A BILL
ESTABLISHING A PROVISION FOR TEACHERS OF THE
CHRISTIAN RELIGION which Madison got defeated in the Virginia General
Assembly and passed in it's place Jefferson's Bill for religious freedom.

Thus, the rationale they used didn't just rely on Jefferson's letter
containing the metaphor.

Everson v. Bd of Ed defined the Establishment Clause.
Here are the legal and historical footnotes that the court used to pen the
definition:
FOOTNOTES TO EVERSON v. BD OF ED.
http://snurl.com/2pro
**************************************************************

:|If you read Jefferson's writings you will understand that our government
:|was not intended to be a monolithic entity with respect to church/state
:|separation.

Why didn't you address my point about Jefferson's writings showing that
State and Federal governments were finally decided not to be a
monolithic entity with respect to the wall of church/state separation?
Again, researching Jefferson has led me to the conclusion that the
Supreme Court couldn't have picked a worse person to quote in justifying
interpreting the scope of the establishment clause to include the
States. The Court was wrong to base its main insight to church/state
separation on an isolated Jefferson writing.

Here are the known writings of Jefferson religion, chuch state etc.

The courts were and are aware of every one of these.

Now that you've asserted the courts were and are aware of every one of
the letters below, prove it. Indeed, this is the crux of the problem.
In fact, your list below seems to have a very troubling omission.
Consider the clearest (IMO) of the Jefferson extracts concerning the
constitutional power of the States to address religious issues:
"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is
placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general
government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the
religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution
found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church
authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies." --Thomas
Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805. ME 3:378
I can't find this inaugural address referenced below so please indicate
where I have overlooked it. In fact, I'm curious as to why the Supreme
Court would look through an inaugural address in researching
church/state separation issues in the first place. It's confusing,
paper-based "cataloging techniques" like this that the Court has had to
deal with that makes me inclined to accept the possibility that
important Jefferson writings were simply overlooked when pivotal
church/state separation cases were decided.
M. Clark

THE RELIGIOUS CORRESPONDENCE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON
(Note that Jefferson referred to clergy of all denominations as priests.)
DATE
Adams, John June 11, 1812
Adams, John (from) June 10, 1812
Adams, John (from) June 14, 1812
Adams, John June 15, 1813
Adams, John (from) June 28, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 9, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 16, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 18, 1813
Adams, John August 22, 1813
Adams, John (from) September 14, 1813
Adams, John October 13, 1813
Adams, John (from) November 15, 1813
Adams, John (from) December 25, 1813
Adams, John January 24, 1814
Adams, John (from) February ?, 1814
Adams, John (from) July 16, 1814
Adams, John (from) June 22, 1815
Adams, John (from) August 24, 1815
Adams, John (from) February 2, 1816
Adams, John (from) March 2, 1816
Adams, John April 8, 1816
Adams, John (from) May 3, 1816
Adams, John (from) May 6, 1816
Adams, John August 1, 1816
Adams, John (from) August 9, 1816
Adams, John January 11, 1817
Adams, John May 5, 1817
Adams, John (from) May 18, 1817
Adams, John (from) May 26, 1817
Adams, John March 14, 1820
Adams, John January 22, 1821
Adams, John (from) September 24, 1821
Adams, John April 11, 1823
Adams, John (from) August 15, 1823
Adams, John (from) January 23, 1825
Baldwin, William January 19, 1810
Baltimore Baptist October 17, 1808
Bolling, Mrs. John July 23, 1787
Brown, Dr. Samuel July 14, 1813
Cambell, Joseph C. February 22, 1821
Canby, William (from) August 29, 1813
Canby, William September 18, 1813
Carey, Mathew November 11,1816
Carr, Peter August 10, 1787
Cartwright, Maj. John June 5, 1824
Carver, William December 4, 1823
Clay, Charles January 29, 1815
Cooper, James May 30, 1823
Cooper, Thomas July 9, 1807
Cooper, Thomas February 10, 1814
Cooper, Thomas August 14, 1820
Cooper, Thomas November 2, 1822
Cooper, Thomas December 11, 1823
Compt, Honore Gabriel August 20, 1786
Coxe, Trench May 1, 1794
Danbury Baptist January 1, 1802
Davis, John January 18, 1824
Dickinson, John March 6, 1801
Dowse, Edward April 19, 1803
Dupont, De Nemours April 15, 1811
Edwards, Pierpont July 21, 1801
Engelbrecht, Isaac February 25, 1824
Everett, Edward October 15, 1824
Fishback, James September 27, 1809
Fry, John December 2, 1823
Gallatin, Albert June 16, 1817
Gallatin, Albert February 15, 1818
Gerry, Elbridge January 26, 1799
Gerry, Elbridge March 29, 1801
Granger, Gideon May 3, 1801
Granger, Gideon May 20, 1803
Greenhow, Samuel January 31, 1814
Grotjan, Thomas Jefferson January 10, 1824
Hillard, Capt. Isaac October 9, 1810
Hopkinson, Francis March 13, 1789
Humboldt, Baron Von December 6, 1813
Jay, Gov. James April 7, 1809
Kemp, Francis A. Van der April 25, 1816
Kemp, Francis A. Van der March 16, 1817
Kemp, Francis A. Van der May 1, 1817
Kemp, Francis A. Van der January 11, 1824
Kercheval, Samuel January 19, 1810
Ketocton Baptist October 18, 1808
King, Miles September 26, 1814
Kosciusko, Gen. Thaddeus April 13, 1811
La Fayette, Marq. De May 14, 1817
Leiper, Thomas January 21, 1809
Lincoln, Levi August 26, 1801
Lincoln, Levi January 1, 1802
Logan, George November 12, 1816
Madison, James July 31, 1788
Madison, James June 18, 1789
Madison, James March 2, 1798
Madison, James March 29, 1798
Megear, Michael May 29, 1823
Methodist Episcopal Ch. December 9, 1808
Methodist Episcopal Ch. February 4, 1809
Miller, Rev. Samuel January 23, 1808
Monroe, James May 26, 1800
Moor, Jeremiah August 14, 1800
Nicholas, Wilson C. June 13, 1809
Noah, Rabbi Mordecai M. May 28, 1818
Ogilvie, James August 4, 1811
Onis, Chevalier Luis De April 28, 1814
Patterson, Robert December 27, 1812
Page, John July 15, 1763
Pickering, Timothy February 27, 1821
Price, Dr. January 8, 1789
Pristley, Joseph January 27, 1800
Pristley, Joseph March 21, 1801
Pristley, Joseph June 19, 1802
Pristley, Joseph April 9, 1803
Pristley, Joseph January 29, 1804
Ritchie, Thomas January 21, 1816
Robinson, Moses March 23, 1801
Rush, Benjamin September 23, 1800
Rush, Benjamin April 21, 1803
Rush, Benjamin April 23, 1803
Rutledge, William February 2, 1788
Seymour, Thomas February 11, 1807
Short, William October 31, 1819
Short, William April 13, 1820
Short, William August 4, 1820
Six Baptists Assocs. November 21, 1808
Smith, Mrs. M. Harrison August 6, 1816
Smith, James December 8, 1822
Smith, Thomas Jefferson February 21, 1825
Spafford, Horato Gates March 17, 1814
Spafford, Horato Gates January 10, 1816
Sparks, Rev. Jared November 4, 1820
Story, Rev. Issac December 5, 1801
Styles, Ezra June 25, 1819
Taylor, Gen. Robert May 16, 1820
Thomas, Capt. John November 18, 1807
Thompson, Charles December 17, 1786
Thompson, Charles January 29, 1817
Tickner, George May ?, 1817
Thacher, George January 26, 1824
Volney, C.F.C. De February 8, 1805
Waterhouse, Benjamin October 13, 1815
Waterhouse, Benjamin June 26, 1822
Waterhouse, Benjamin July 19, 1822
Waterhouse, Benjamin January 8, 1825
Weightman, Roger C. June 24, 1826
Wendover, P.H. March 13, 1815
Whittemore, Rev. Thomas June 5, 1822
Williamson, Dr. Hugh January 10, 1801
Woodward, Augustus B. March 24, 1824
Wyceh, John May 19, 1809
Wythe, George August 13, 1786
(Unknowen) June 13, 1814
Appendix
An Act for Establishing Elementary Schools
Anas, The
Autobiography of Thomas Jefferson, The
Notes of an Interview by Samuel Wuitcomb
Notes on Religion
Notes on Virginia, from Query XIV
Notes on Virginia, from Query XVII
Notes on Virginia, from Query XVIII
Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus
Thoughts on Lotteries
Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law?
A Note on Washington's Religion
Report of the Meeting -- University of Virginia
A Declaration by the Representatives of the United States
of America, in General Congress Assembled
**** ****

:|The Court got Jefferson wrong.

Ptove it, you sayignit isn't proof

:|Again, this is probably
:|because they didn't have computer databases at the time to better
:|examine his writings.

[snip]

:|M. Clark, internet troll and nutcase.

LOL, what a joke you are.

The third floor of the USSC building is a huger libaray. It's not open to
the public. However, I have been in that library before. The library is
extremely well stocked for the Justices and their law clerks to use.

In addition to that, they are only a hop skip and jump away from the
Library of Congress.

Unlike you, they didn't lack for information.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	01 Jan 2004 10:00:01 PM

God love ya
<jalison@cox.net> wrote in message
news:r339vv4c8l1cv657srphr5hc40vckmhn3q@4ax.com...

idontreply@toemail.com (M. Clark) wrote:

the

:|1st Amendment applies only to Congress but Jefferson himself understood
:|the constitutional right of the States to address religious issues as
:|his writings indicate. So the Court blew it big time when they used
:|Jefferson's church/state separation writing to justify extending the
:|scope of the establishment clause to the States. It's as if they were
:|unaware of some key Jefferson writings on this issue. Note, in fact,
:|that the key church/state separation cases were decided before computer
:|searches existed.

nothing ever changes with you does it troll?

From:

(

)
Subject: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid
View: Complete Thread (150 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: misc.education.home-school.christian,

alt.politics.libertarian,

alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.politics, alt.education, misc.education
Date: 2003-11-15 07:47:10 PST

idontreply@toemail.com (M. Clark) wrote:

:|It is Jefferson's church/state separation words that are always quoted.
:|Jefferson is explicitly credited with these words in the SC's Everson

church.

Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer
one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go
to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess

belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for
entertaining [p*16] or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for
church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small,
can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions,

whatever

they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice
religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or
secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or
groups, and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against
establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of
separation between church and State." Reynolds v. United States, supra, at
164.
**************************************
It can be added the all 9 justices were in agreement on this definition.

It also cited, considered and provided in full the following in
Appendixes:
James Madison's MEMORIAL AND REMONSTRANCE
AGAINST RELIGIOUS ASSESSMENTS

AND The bill sponsored and supported by Patrick Henry A BILL
ESTABLISHING A PROVISION FOR TEACHERS OF THE
CHRISTIAN RELIGION which Madison got defeated in the Virginia General
Assembly and passed in it's place Jefferson's Bill for religious freedom.

Thus, the rationale they used didn't just rely on Jefferson's letter
containing the metaphor.

Everson v. Bd of Ed defined the Establishment Clause.
Here are the legal and historical footnotes that the court used to pen the
definition:
FOOTNOTES TO EVERSON v. BD OF ED.
http://snurl.com/2pro
**************************************************************

:|If you read Jefferson's writings you will understand that our

government

:|was not intended to be a monolithic entity with respect to church/state
:|separation.

Here are the known writings of Jefferson religion, chuch state etc.

The courts were and are aware of every one of these.

THE RELIGIOUS CORRESPONDENCE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON
(Note that Jefferson referred to clergy of all denominations as priests.)
DATE
Adams, John June 11, 1812
Adams, John (from) June 10, 1812
Adams, John (from) June 14, 1812
Adams, John June 15, 1813
Adams, John (from) June 28, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 9, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 16, 1813
Adams, John (from) July 18, 1813
Adams, John August 22, 1813
Adams, John (from) September 14, 1813
Adams, John October 13, 1813
Adams, John (from) November 15, 1813
Adams, John (from) December 25, 1813
Adams, John January 24, 1814
Adams, John (from) February ?, 1814
Adams, John (from) July 16, 1814
Adams, John (from) June 22, 1815
Adams, John (from) August 24, 1815
Adams, John (from) February 2, 1816
Adams, John (from) March 2, 1816
Adams, John April 8, 1816
Adams, John (from) May 3, 1816
Adams, John (from) May 6, 1816
Adams, John August 1, 1816
Adams, John (from) August 9, 1816
Adams, John January 11, 1817
Adams, John May 5, 1817
Adams, John (from) May 18, 1817
Adams, John (from) May 26, 1817
Adams, John March 14, 1820
Adams, John January 22, 1821
Adams, John (from) September 24, 1821
Adams, John April 11, 1823
Adams, John (from) August 15, 1823
Adams, John (from) January 23, 1825
Baldwin, William January 19, 1810
Baltimore Baptist October 17, 1808
Bolling, Mrs. John July 23, 1787
Brown, Dr. Samuel July 14, 1813
Cambell, Joseph C. February 22, 1821
Canby, William (from) August 29, 1813
Canby, William September 18, 1813
Carey, Mathew November 11,1816
Carr, Peter August 10, 1787
Cartwright, Maj. John June 5, 1824
Carver, William December 4, 1823
Clay, Charles January 29, 1815
Cooper, James May 30, 1823
Cooper, Thomas July 9, 1807
Cooper, Thomas February 10, 1814
Cooper, Thomas August 14, 1820
Cooper, Thomas November 2, 1822
Cooper, Thomas December 11, 1823
Compt, Honore Gabriel August 20, 1786
Coxe, Trench May 1, 1794
Danbury Baptist January 1, 1802
Davis, John January 18, 1824
Dickinson, John March 6, 1801
Dowse, Edward April 19, 1803
Dupont, De Nemours April 15, 1811
Edwards, Pierpont July 21, 1801
Engelbrecht, Isaac February 25, 1824
Everett, Edward October 15, 1824
Fishback, James September 27, 1809
Fry, John December 2, 1823
Gallatin, Albert June 16, 1817
Gallatin, Albert February 15, 1818
Gerry, Elbridge January 26, 1799
Gerry, Elbridge March 29, 1801
Granger, Gideon May 3, 1801
Granger, Gideon May 20, 1803
Greenhow, Samuel January 31, 1814
Grotjan, Thomas Jefferson January 10, 1824
Hillard, Capt. Isaac October 9, 1810
Hopkinson, Francis March 13, 1789
Humboldt, Baron Von December 6, 1813
Jay, Gov. James April 7, 1809
Kemp, Francis A. Van der April 25, 1816
Kemp, Francis A. Van der March 16, 1817
Kemp, Francis A. Van der May 1, 1817
Kemp, Francis A. Van der January 11, 1824
Kercheval, Samuel January 19, 1810
Ketocton Baptist October 18, 1808
King, Miles September 26, 1814
Kosciusko, Gen. Thaddeus April 13, 1811
La Fayette, Marq. De May 14, 1817
Leiper, Thomas January 21, 1809
Lincoln, Levi August 26, 1801
Lincoln, Levi January 1, 1802
Logan, George November 12, 1816
Madison, James July 31, 1788
Madison, James June 18, 1789
Madison, James March 2, 1798
Madison, James March 29, 1798
Megear, Michael May 29, 1823
Methodist Episcopal Ch. December 9, 1808
Methodist Episcopal Ch. February 4, 1809
Miller, Rev. Samuel January 23, 1808
Monroe, James May 26, 1800
Moor, Jeremiah August 14, 1800
Nicholas, Wilson C. June 13, 1809
Noah, Rabbi Mordecai M. May 28, 1818
Ogilvie, James August 4, 1811
Onis, Chevalier Luis De April 28, 1814
Patterson, Robert December 27, 1812
Page, John July 15, 1763
Pickering, Timothy February 27, 1821
Price, Dr. January 8, 1789
Pristley, Joseph January 27, 1800
Pristley, Joseph March 21, 1801
Pristley, Joseph June 19, 1802
Pristley, Joseph April 9, 1803
Pristley, Joseph January 29, 1804
Ritchie, Thomas January 21, 1816
Robinson, Moses March 23, 1801
Rush, Benjamin September 23, 1800
Rush, Benjamin April 21, 1803
Rush, Benjamin April 23, 1803
Rutledge, William February 2, 1788
Seymour, Thomas February 11, 1807
Short, William October 31, 1819
Short, William April 13, 1820
Short, William August 4, 1820
Six Baptists Assocs. November 21, 1808
Smith, Mrs. M. Harrison August 6, 1816
Smith, James December 8, 1822
Smith, Thomas Jefferson February 21, 1825
Spafford, Horato Gates March 17, 1814
Spafford, Horato Gates January 10, 1816
Sparks, Rev. Jared November 4, 1820
Story, Rev. Issac December 5, 1801
Styles, Ezra June 25, 1819
Taylor, Gen. Robert May 16, 1820
Thomas, Capt. John November 18, 1807
Thompson, Charles December 17, 1786
Thompson, Charles January 29, 1817
Tickner, George May ?, 1817
Thacher, George January 26, 1824
Volney, C.F.C. De February 8, 1805
Waterhouse, Benjamin October 13, 1815
Waterhouse, Benjamin June 26, 1822
Waterhouse, Benjamin July 19, 1822
Waterhouse, Benjamin January 8, 1825
Weightman, Roger C. June 24, 1826
Wendover, P.H. March 13, 1815
Whittemore, Rev. Thomas June 5, 1822
Williamson, Dr. Hugh January 10, 1801
Woodward, Augustus B. March 24, 1824
Wyceh, John May 19, 1809
Wythe, George August 13, 1786
(Unknowen) June 13, 1814
Appendix
An Act for Establishing Elementary Schools
Anas, The
Autobiography of Thomas Jefferson, The
Notes of an Interview by Samuel Wuitcomb
Notes on Religion
Notes on Virginia, from Query XIV
Notes on Virginia, from Query XVII
Notes on Virginia, from Query XVIII
Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus
Thoughts on Lotteries
Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law?
A Note on Washington's Religion
Report of the Meeting -- University of Virginia
A Declaration by the Representatives of the United States
of America, in General Congress Assembled
**** ****

:|The Court got Jefferson wrong.

Ptove it, you sayignit isn't proof

:|Again, this is probably
:|because they didn't have computer databases at the time to better
:|examine his writings.

[snip]

:|M. Clark, internet troll and nutcase.

LOL, what a joke you are.

The third floor of the USSC building is a huger libaray. It's not open to
the public. However, I have been in that library before. The library is
extremely well stocked for the Justices and their law clerks to use.

In addition to that, they are only a hop skip and jump away from the
Library of Congress.

Unlike you, they didn't lack for information.

:|>
:|>
:|> <I cannot cast the first stone but keep in mind that your bitterness
:|> <against "christians" left over from your church days will only get

you

User: ""
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	02 Jan 2004 07:38:56 AM

"CB" <CB@PrayForMe.com> wrote:

:|God love ya

That is what I thought.
A troll who is unable to move beyond your religious right crib sheet to
actually engage in discussion and defend your seriously flawed theories.
Your lack of ability to reply in any meaningful way doesn't alter the
validity of that which follows:
idontreply@toemail.com (M. Clark) wrote:

nothing ever changes with you does it troll?
From:

(

:|If you read Jefferson's writings you will understand that our government
:|was not intended to be a monolithic entity with respect to church/state
:|separation.

:|The Court got Jefferson wrong.

Ptove it, you sayignit isn't proof

:|Again, this is probably
:|because they didn't have computer databases at the time to better
:|examine his writings.

[snip]

:|M. Clark, internet troll and nutcase.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	02 Jan 2004 08:45:51 AM

<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:9rsavv4p4qa2d38b0gn25pp7j5jrmprnu8@4ax.com...

"CB" <CB@PrayForMe.com> wrote:

:|God love ya

That is what I thought.
A troll who is unable to move beyond your religious right crib sheet to
actually engage in discussion and defend your seriously flawed theories.

Ever argue with a child? It always results in involuntary constraint. Some
people simply cannot eccept the truth.

Your lack of ability to reply in any meaningful way doesn't alter the
validity of that which follows:

Goo Goo?
--
CB
"Neither philosophy, nor religion, nor morality, nor wisdom, nor
interest will ever govern nations or parties against their vanity,
their pride, their resentment or revenge, or their avarice or
ambition. Nothing but force and power and strength can restrain them."
--John Adams
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	02 Jan 2004 10:22:22 AM

"CB" <CB@PrayForMe.com> wrote:

it's getting hard to tell the two of you apart anymore "CB" & Idontreply.
Two peas in a pod but neither can defend and expand with valid evidence
your flawed positions.
Speaking of child, you both qualify.

:|> Your lack of ability to reply in any meaningful way doesn't alter the
:|> validity of that which follows:
:|
:|Goo Goo?

Wonderful default
.

User: "Roger"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	03 Jan 2004 12:48:36 AM

<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:ql6bvv46mvn74ul7n2b5kp1euca1ndjvvh@4ax.com...

"CB" <CB@PrayForMe.com> wrote:

:|> actually engage in discussion and defend your seriously flawed

theories.

:|
:|Ever argue with a child? It always results in involuntary constraint.

Some

:|people simply cannot eccept the truth.

Ha!

:|> Your lack of ability to reply in any meaningful way doesn't alter the
:|> validity of that which follows:
:|
:|Goo Goo?

Wonderful default

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	03 Jan 2004 01:44:25 PM

In article <bt4072$66p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com> "CB" <CB@PrayForMe.com> writes:
<com!not-for-mail
<
<
<<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message <news:9rsavv4p4qa2d38b0gn25pp7j5jrmprnu8@4ax.com...
<> "CB" <CB@PrayForMe.com> wrote:
<>
<> >:|God love ya
<>
<> That is what I thought.
<> A troll who is unable to move beyond your religious right crib sheet to
<> actually engage in discussion and defend your seriously flawed theories.
<
< Ever argue with a child? It always results in involuntary constraint.
We see that you've managed to work your typing hand loose. Good job.
< Some people simply cannot eccept the truth.
<>
<> Your lack of ability to reply in any meaningful way doesn't alter the
<> validity of that which follows:
<
<Goo Goo?
Buckeye: You can't reply to my arguments
CB: Goo goo.
What happened? You switching sides, or did the Dark CB take over for a
second there?
-- cary
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	01 Jan 2004 11:14:47 AM

(M. Clark) wrote:

So in summary:

a) you think the Supremes do, and should,
regard TJ as relevant, only

They use his writing to determine the meaning of the establishment
clause itself. They used the 14th amendment to extend the scope of
the establishment clause to the states.

It's as if they were
unaware of some key Jefferson writings on this issue.

Nothing Jefferson wrote is relevant to the application of the 14th
amendment. His writings are relevant to the understanding of the
those rights that the 14th extended.

b) they get him all wrong.

If you read Jefferson's writings you will understand that our government
was not intended to be a monolithic entity with respect to church/state
separation.

But the 14th amendment changed that.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.

User: "M. Clark"
Title: Re: Today's Founder Quote: States have every right to honor God within their public places	03 Jan 2004 10:44:37 AM

Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

idontreply@toemail.com (M. Clark) wrote:

So in summary:

a) you think the Supremes do, and should,
regard TJ as relevant, only

They use his writing to determine the meaning of the establishment
clause itself. They used the 14th amendment to extend the scope of
the establishment clause to the states.

You're sidestepping the issue again. You continue to stubbornly ignore
questionable Court opinions concerning church/state separation cases,
cases where the Court relied too heavily on TJ's famous church/state
separation writing in deciding them. Knowing how Jefferson actually
understood church/state separation principals, a review of such Court
opinions will reasonably lead one to question if the Court was unaware
of TJ's other relevant writings. A knowledge of these writings would
undoubtedly have been pivotal in deciding such cases.
But having misunderstood Jefferson, the Court ended up illegally turning
Federal and State governments into a monolithic entity with respect to
building a wall of separation between church and state. Again,
church/state separation at the State level goes completely against TJ's
understanding of the Constitution concerning this principal. So a
confused, information-starved Supreme Court consequently and
inadvertently began a tradition of making unconstitutional garbage-in,
garbage-out decisions where church/state separation issues are
concerned.

It's as if they were
unaware of some key Jefferson writings on this issue.

Nothing Jefferson wrote is relevant to the application of the 14th
amendment. His writings are relevant to the understanding of the
those rights that the 14th extended.

Jefferson's blessing of the constitutional power of the States to
address religious issues indicates that this power can be thought of as
an unenumerated right. (After all, the Court essentially made TJ's
church/state separation writing an unenumerated law of the land.)
Unenumerated rights are protected by the 9th Amendment. Yet, there is
no mention of the right of the States to address religious issues in any
relevant Court opinion. The Court's interpretation of the amendments in
handling church/state separation issues is consequently nothing more
than telltale evidence of the blind leading the blind.

b) they get him all wrong.

If you read Jefferson's writings you will understand that our government
was not intended to be a monolithic entity with respect to church/state
separation.

But the 14th amendment changed that.

It's the start of a new year so why don't you start it right by at least
trying to be honest with yourself about what the basic meaning of
relevant amendments? What's going on is that an atheistic minority has
evidently been trying to kill our 1st Ame