VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries

Sociology > Education > VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 2

Topic:	Sociology > Education
User:	""
Date:	12 Jun 2006 05:12:51 AM
Object:	VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8269&news_iv_ctrl=0&abbr=pr
Veterans Affairs Department Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial
Markers At Government Cemeteries, Says Americans United
Thursday, June 8, 2006
Americans United Asks Veterans Affairs Department To Respect Religious
Diversity, Approve Pentacle For Wiccan Soldier Killed In Afghanistan
The Department of Veterans Affairs must recognize religious diversity by
allowing a Wiccan symbol on the memorial marker of a soldier who died in
Afghanistan, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
In a June 7 letter to R. James Nicholson, secretary of Veterans Affairs,
and
William F. Tuerk, under secretary for Memorial Affairs, AU requests that
the
widow of Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart be permitted to place a Wiccan pentacle on
his marker and that the department extend that same right to other Wiccan
families.
Stewart, a Wiccan, was killed in Afghanistan on Sept. 25, 2005. The Nevada
resident was a highly decorated Army soldier who was awarded the Bronze
Star, the Purple Heart and other honors. His widow, Roberta Stewart, has
repeatedly sought to have the Wiccan pentacle placed on his marker, but
Veterans Affairs officials have not responded.
The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, called the
situation outrageous.
"A brave man died in service to his country," Lynn said. "The federal
government has a duty to allow his widow to honor his chosen faith.
"Aside from the constitutional issues raised, this is a simple matter of
justice and common decency," Lynn continued. "I am hopeful the Veterans
Affairs Department will do the right thing and extend full recognition to
Wiccans and their families."
Wiccans have been trying for at least nine years to persuade the National
Cemetery Administration to add the pentacle to its list of approved emblems
for government headstones, markers, and plaques. Most recently, the Rev.
Selena Fox of Circle Sanctuary in Wisconsin filed an application in January
2006, but the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National Cemetery
Administration have failed to act on it. A department official refused to
even provide a time-frame for issuing a decision.
"The National Cemetery Administration's failure to recognize the Wiccan
Pentacle as a valid religious symbol constitutes unconstitutional
discrimination against the Wiccan faith and its adherents," wrote Aram A.
Schvey, AU litigation counsel, in the letter to Nicholson and Tuerk.
"Indeed, there is absolutely no legal support for the Administration's
practice of maintaining a list of officially-approved religious symbols
much
less its exclusion of any religious symbol from the officially provided
markers for military gravesites."
Schvey added, "Sergeant Stewart gave his life fulfilling his oath to
protect
and defend the Constitution, including the First Amendment protections that
have allowed him and his family the freedom to worship as they choose. It
is
a cruel irony that the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National
Cemetery Administration, rather than extending the thanks of a grateful
nation to the family of a fallen soldier, are undermining the
constitutional
guarantees of religious freedom for which Sgt. Stewart fought and died."
The letter requests that the Department of Veterans Affairs respond within
30 days to avoid litigation.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: "Jeff Strickland"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	13 Jun 2006 10:16:49 PM

<buckeye-elo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kgfq82poondk14ujbjakeooq3n6t70i03k@4ax.com...

Sadly, if we are going to recognize any of the "real" religions, we should
recognize wiccans and put their symbol on a grave marker if so requested.
It occurs to me that one should have completed a form that described the
preferred religious affiliation of the soldiers, or get a blank marker.
.

User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	12 Jun 2006 07:40:52 AM

Another example of the hypocrisy of the left. AU is opposed to
religious displays of Christians but sues for the right to display
Wiccan symbols. If one is true why is the other wrong. If Wiccans
must be allowed to display symbols on Gov land, all religions
can...right?
buckeye-elo@nospam.net wrote:

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=3DNewsArticle&id=3D8269&news_iv_ctrl=3D=

0&abbr=3Dpr

Veterans Affairs Department Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial
Markers At Government Cemeteries, Says Americans United
Thursday, June 8, 2006

Americans United Asks Veterans Affairs Department To Respect Religious
Diversity, Approve Pentacle For Wiccan Soldier Killed In Afghanistan

The Department of Veterans Affairs must recognize religious diversity by
allowing a Wiccan symbol on the memorial marker of a soldier who died in
Afghanistan, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

In a June 7 letter to R. James Nicholson, secretary of Veterans Affairs,
and
William F. Tuerk, under secretary for Memorial Affairs, AU requests that
the
widow of Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart be permitted to place a Wiccan pentacle =

his marker and that the department extend that same right to other Wiccan
families.

Stewart, a Wiccan, was killed in Afghanistan on Sept. 25, 2005. The Nevada
resident was a highly decorated Army soldier who was awarded the Bronze
Star, the Purple Heart and other honors. His widow, Roberta Stewart, has
repeatedly sought to have the Wiccan pentacle placed on his marker, but
Veterans Affairs officials have not responded.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, called the
situation outrageous.

"A brave man died in service to his country," Lynn said. "The federal
government has a duty to allow his widow to honor his chosen faith.

"Aside from the constitutional issues raised, this is a simple matter of
justice and common decency," Lynn continued. "I am hopeful the Veterans
Affairs Department will do the right thing and extend full recognition to
Wiccans and their families."

Wiccans have been trying for at least nine years to persuade the National
Cemetery Administration to add the pentacle to its list of approved emble=

for government headstones, markers, and plaques. Most recently, the Rev.
Selena Fox of Circle Sanctuary in Wisconsin filed an application in Janua=

2006, but the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National Cemetery
Administration have failed to act on it. A department official refused to
even provide a time-frame for issuing a decision.

"The National Cemetery Administration's failure to recognize the Wiccan
Pentacle as a valid religious symbol constitutes unconstitutional
discrimination against the Wiccan faith and its adherents," wrote Aram A.
Schvey, AU litigation counsel, in the letter to Nicholson and Tuerk.
"Indeed, there is absolutely no legal support for the Administration's
practice of maintaining a list of officially-approved religious symbols
much
less its exclusion of any religious symbol from the officially provided
markers for military gravesites."

Schvey added, "Sergeant Stewart gave his life fulfilling his oath to
protect
and defend the Constitution, including the First Amendment protections th=

have allowed him and his family the freedom to worship as they choose. It
is
a cruel irony that the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National
Cemetery Administration, rather than extending the thanks of a grateful
nation to the family of a fallen soldier, are undermining the
constitutional
guarantees of religious freedom for which Sgt. Stewart fought and died."

The letter requests that the Department of Veterans Affairs respond within
30 days to avoid litigation.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS =B7 Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why =

page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisne=

256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.

User: "Jeff Strickland"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	13 Jun 2006 10:22:43 PM

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150116052.929095.294600@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Another example of the hypocrisy of the left. AU is opposed to
religious displays of Christians but sues for the right to display
Wiccan symbols. If one is true why is the other wrong. If Wiccans
must be allowed to display symbols on Gov land, all religions
can...right?
The difference is, in one instance the government is making a preference for
religion, in the other the soldier is making the preference.
I'm pretty sure this display is restricted to gravestones, and does not
apply across the landscape. I could be wrong on that though. But in the
simplest terms, that is the bottom line as I understand it. Obviously,
nothing is ever that simple.
</top post>
buckeye-elo@nospam.net wrote:

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8269&news_iv_ctrl=0&abbr=pr

Veterans Affairs Department Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial
Markers At Government Cemeteries, Says Americans United
Thursday, June 8, 2006

Americans United Asks Veterans Affairs Department To Respect Religious
Diversity, Approve Pentacle For Wiccan Soldier Killed In Afghanistan

The Department of Veterans Affairs must recognize religious diversity by
allowing a Wiccan symbol on the memorial marker of a soldier who died in
Afghanistan, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

In a June 7 letter to R. James Nicholson, secretary of Veterans Affairs,
and
William F. Tuerk, under secretary for Memorial Affairs, AU requests that
the
widow of Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart be permitted to place a Wiccan pentacle
on
his marker and that the department extend that same right to other Wiccan
families.

Stewart, a Wiccan, was killed in Afghanistan on Sept. 25, 2005. The Nevada
resident was a highly decorated Army soldier who was awarded the Bronze
Star, the Purple Heart and other honors. His widow, Roberta Stewart, has
repeatedly sought to have the Wiccan pentacle placed on his marker, but
Veterans Affairs officials have not responded.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, called the
situation outrageous.

"A brave man died in service to his country," Lynn said. "The federal
government has a duty to allow his widow to honor his chosen faith.

"Aside from the constitutional issues raised, this is a simple matter of
justice and common decency," Lynn continued. "I am hopeful the Veterans
Affairs Department will do the right thing and extend full recognition to
Wiccans and their families."

Wiccans have been trying for at least nine years to persuade the National
Cemetery Administration to add the pentacle to its list of approved
emblems
for government headstones, markers, and plaques. Most recently, the Rev.
Selena Fox of Circle Sanctuary in Wisconsin filed an application in
January
2006, but the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National Cemetery
Administration have failed to act on it. A department official refused to
even provide a time-frame for issuing a decision.

"The National Cemetery Administration's failure to recognize the Wiccan
Pentacle as a valid religious symbol constitutes unconstitutional
discrimination against the Wiccan faith and its adherents," wrote Aram A.
Schvey, AU litigation counsel, in the letter to Nicholson and Tuerk.
"Indeed, there is absolutely no legal support for the Administration's
practice of maintaining a list of officially-approved religious symbols
much
less its exclusion of any religious symbol from the officially provided
markers for military gravesites."

Schvey added, "Sergeant Stewart gave his life fulfilling his oath to
protect
and defend the Constitution, including the First Amendment protections
that
have allowed him and his family the freedom to worship as they choose. It
is
a cruel irony that the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National
Cemetery Administration, rather than extending the thanks of a grateful
nation to the family of a fallen soldier, are undermining the
constitutional
guarantees of religious freedom for which Sgt. Stewart fought and died."

The letter requests that the Department of Veterans Affairs respond within
30 days to avoid litigation.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	16 Jun 2006 12:35:19 AM

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:22:43 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote
(in article <D7Sdnc1wGpedHBLZnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@ez2.net>):

Notice this sentence (that's two, Jeff):

The difference is, in one instance the government is making a preference
for religion, in the other the soldier is making the preference.

That's the best I've ever seen it stated.
Well said.
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
Pain is inevitable but suffering is optional.

I'm pretty sure this display is restricted to gravestones, and does not
apply across the landscape. I could be wrong on that though. But in the
simplest terms, that is the bottom line as I understand it. Obviously,
nothing is ever that simple.

</top post>

buckeye-elo@nospam.net wrote:

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8269&news_iv_ctrl=0&abbr=pr

Veterans Affairs Department Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial
Markers At Government Cemeteries, Says Americans United
Thursday, June 8, 2006

Americans United Asks Veterans Affairs Department To Respect Religious
Diversity, Approve Pentacle For Wiccan Soldier Killed In Afghanistan

The Department of Veterans Affairs must recognize religious diversity by
allowing a Wiccan symbol on the memorial marker of a soldier who died in
Afghanistan, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

In a June 7 letter to R. James Nicholson, secretary of Veterans Affairs,
and
William F. Tuerk, under secretary for Memorial Affairs, AU requests that
the
widow of Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart be permitted to place a Wiccan pentacle
on
his marker and that the department extend that same right to other Wiccan
families.

Stewart, a Wiccan, was killed in Afghanistan on Sept. 25, 2005. The Nevada
resident was a highly decorated Army soldier who was awarded the Bronze
Star, the Purple Heart and other honors. His widow, Roberta Stewart, has
repeatedly sought to have the Wiccan pentacle placed on his marker, but
Veterans Affairs officials have not responded.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, called the
situation outrageous.

"A brave man died in service to his country," Lynn said. "The federal
government has a duty to allow his widow to honor his chosen faith.

"Aside from the constitutional issues raised, this is a simple matter of
justice and common decency," Lynn continued. "I am hopeful the Veterans
Affairs Department will do the right thing and extend full recognition to
Wiccans and their families."

Wiccans have been trying for at least nine years to persuade the National
Cemetery Administration to add the pentacle to its list of approved
emblems
for government headstones, markers, and plaques. Most recently, the Rev.
Selena Fox of Circle Sanctuary in Wisconsin filed an application in
January
2006, but the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National Cemetery
Administration have failed to act on it. A department official refused to
even provide a time-frame for issuing a decision.

"The National Cemetery Administration's failure to recognize the Wiccan
Pentacle as a valid religious symbol constitutes unconstitutional
discrimination against the Wiccan faith and its adherents," wrote Aram A.
Schvey, AU litigation counsel, in the letter to Nicholson and Tuerk.
"Indeed, there is absolutely no legal support for the Administration's
practice of maintaining a list of officially-approved religious symbols
much
less its exclusion of any religious symbol from the officially provided
markers for military gravesites."

Schvey added, "Sergeant Stewart gave his life fulfilling his oath to
protect
and defend the Constitution, including the First Amendment protections
that
have allowed him and his family the freedom to worship as they choose. It
is
a cruel irony that the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National
Cemetery Administration, rather than extending the thanks of a grateful
nation to the family of a fallen soldier, are undermining the
constitutional
guarantees of religious freedom for which Sgt. Stewart fought and died."

The letter requests that the Department of Veterans Affairs respond within
30 days to avoid litigation.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS á Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken

User: "WallyCleaver"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At GovernmentCemeteries	16 Jun 2006 04:13:14 PM

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?
Just curious
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	16 Jun 2006 05:00:30 PM

In article <k6Fkg.89194$iB2.78888@bignews4.bellsouth.net> WallyCleaver <ohwallydont@bellsouth.net> writes:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

Why not? It's not up to the government to judge your religion.
-- cary
.

User: "Jeff Strickland"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	17 Jun 2006 01:29:25 PM

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:e6v9lu$53p$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <k6Fkg.89194$iB2.78888@bignews4.bellsouth.net> WallyCleaver
<ohwallydont@bellsouth.net> writes:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

Why not? It's not up to the government to judge your religion.

While I agree that government has no place judging one's religion, I think
the government can ignore requests for displays of non-bonafied religions or
sects. Having said that, how would such a standard be administered?
Death and burial are solemn occasions, and I think the government has a
right and duty to not allow one to demean the memory of others by including
every crackpot request for a symbol. Of course, I suppose such a view is
what got us to this particular lawsuit.
.

User: "Delta Tango Alpha"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	17 Jun 2006 02:59:51 PM

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LbCdnaUz99GY1wnZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ez2.net...

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:e6v9lu$53p$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <k6Fkg.89194$iB2.78888@bignews4.bellsouth.net> WallyCleaver
<ohwallydont@bellsouth.net> writes:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

Why not? It's not up to the government to judge your religion.

While I agree that government has no place judging one's religion, I think
the government can ignore requests for displays of non-bonafied religions
or sects. Having said that, how would such a standard be administered?

Death and burial are solemn occasions, and I think the government has a
right and duty to not allow one to demean the memory of others by
including every crackpot request for a symbol. Of course, I suppose such a
view is what got us to this particular lawsuit.

Those crackpot Pagans were around long before christians.
.

User: "Jeff Strickland"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	18 Jun 2006 12:20:29 PM

"Delta Tango Alpha" <dto@nospmamers.com> wrote in message
news:1298nptnglhvc12@corp.supernews.com...

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LbCdnaUz99GY1wnZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ez2.net...

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:e6v9lu$53p$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <k6Fkg.89194$iB2.78888@bignews4.bellsouth.net> WallyCleaver
<ohwallydont@bellsouth.net> writes:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

Why not? It's not up to the government to judge your religion.

While I agree that government has no place judging one's religion, I
think the government can ignore requests for displays of non-bonafied
religions or sects. Having said that, how would such a standard be
administered?

Death and burial are solemn occasions, and I think the government has a
right and duty to not allow one to demean the memory of others by
including every crackpot request for a symbol. Of course, I suppose such
a view is what got us to this particular lawsuit.

Those crackpot Pagans were around long before christians.

So? This is not a "Christian" issue, last time I checked.
.

User: "Delta Tango Alpha"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	18 Jun 2006 02:09:08 PM

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:js-dnR5_D9n_FgjZnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@ez2.net...

"Delta Tango Alpha" <dto@nospmamers.com> wrote in message
news:1298nptnglhvc12@corp.supernews.com...

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LbCdnaUz99GY1wnZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ez2.net...

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:e6v9lu$53p$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <k6Fkg.89194$iB2.78888@bignews4.bellsouth.net> WallyCleaver
<ohwallydont@bellsouth.net> writes:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

Why not? It's not up to the government to judge your religion.

While I agree that government has no place judging one's religion, I
think the government can ignore requests for displays of non-bonafied
religions or sects. Having said that, how would such a standard be
administered?

Death and burial are solemn occasions, and I think the government has a
right and duty to not allow one to demean the memory of others by
including every crackpot request for a symbol. Of course, I suppose such
a view is what got us to this particular lawsuit.

Those crackpot Pagans were around long before christians.

So? This is not a "Christian" issue, last time I checked.

It's a "crackpot" issue, if I need to 'splain it to you.
You see, you don't get to decide if a religion is crackpot.
Pagans and many other beliefs and non beliefs would consider christians
"crackpots". And no doubt it is christians that are holding up the pagan
symbol.
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	18 Jun 2006 01:30:02 AM

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:

Precisely the problem. Government has no business judging whether a
religion is "bona fide" or not.
lojbab
.

User: "The Watch Dog"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	18 Jun 2006 03:55:09 AM

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:

Precisely the problem. Government has no business judging whether a
religion is "bona fide" or not.

And yet, as things are currently constituted, they have to. A
"legitimate" church pays no taxes. There are religious exemptions to
laws, but the religion has to be a "real" one. (For example, during
Prohibition, Catholics were still permitted to use wine in their
rituals. But you couldn't just say to the judge, "Hey, MY religion
requires me to get drunk on tequila every night.")
It's actually a complicated and difficult legal problem. But as a rule,
a relgion's legitamacy won't be challenged if they're not trying to
bypass an "otherwise valid" law. In this case, since no one can
demonstrate any harm or intrinsic illegality to putting a Wiccan symbol
on a tombstone, I don't see why there would be a problem. Now, if your
religion's symbol was a PORNAGRAPHIC one... then you'd have two legal
principles in conflict, and the decision isn't clear.
The military already recognizes Wicca as a legitimate religion, so this
particular case seems like a tempest in a teapot.
.

User: "Jeff Strickland"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	18 Jun 2006 12:22:15 PM

"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1150620909.110702.9710@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:

Precisely the problem. Government has no business judging whether a
religion is "bona fide" or not.

And yet, as things are currently constituted, they have to. A
"legitimate" church pays no taxes. There are religious exemptions to
laws, but the religion has to be a "real" one. (For example, during
Prohibition, Catholics were still permitted to use wine in their
rituals. But you couldn't just say to the judge, "Hey, MY religion
requires me to get drunk on tequila every night.")

It's actually a complicated and difficult legal problem. But as a rule,
a relgion's legitamacy won't be challenged if they're not trying to
bypass an "otherwise valid" law. In this case, since no one can
demonstrate any harm or intrinsic illegality to putting a Wiccan symbol
on a tombstone, I don't see why there would be a problem. Now, if your
religion's symbol was a PORNAGRAPHIC one... then you'd have two legal
principles in conflict, and the decision isn't clear.

The military already recognizes Wicca as a legitimate religion, so this
particular case seems like a tempest in a teapot.

And, it should have been a slam-dunk.
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	18 Jun 2006 05:17:08 PM

"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote:

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:

Precisely the problem. Government has no business judging whether a
religion is "bona fide" or not.

And yet, as things are currently constituted, they have to. A
"legitimate" church pays no taxes.

A non-profit organization pays no taxes, whether it is a church or
not. Thus government is not judging whether it is a bona fide church,
but whether it is a bona fide non-profit organization. The rules that
determine the issue indeed have nothing to do with religion.
lojbab
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	17 Jun 2006 02:28:47 PM

In article <LbCdnaUz99GY1wnZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ez2.net> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> writes:

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:e6v9lu$53p$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <k6Fkg.89194$iB2.78888@bignews4.bellsouth.net> WallyCleaver
<ohwallydont@bellsouth.net> writes:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

Why not? It's not up to the government to judge your religion.

While I agree that government has no place judging one's religion, I think
the government can ignore requests for displays of non-bonafied religions or
sects.

So you think it's one of the government's duties to decide which sets
of spiritual beliefs are "bona fide"?
How shall we decide? I know Protestants who think that Catholics
are idol worshipers bound for hell. I sometimes spar with Catholics
who hold strong beliefs the other way around. Shall we let Congress
settle this ancient debate? Or how about Jehovah's Witnesses, is that a
"bona fide" religion? Christian Science? Shinto? Rael? Sufism?

Death and burial are solemn occasions, and I think the government has a
right and duty to not allow one to demean the memory of others by including
every crackpot request for a symbol.

So if a adherent of, say, Bahai'i dies in the service of our country,
you would deny him having a quote from the Bab on his grave marker,
lest it somehow diminish the tens of thousands of crosses all about
him?
-- cary
.

User: "Jeff Strickland"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	18 Jun 2006 12:19:23 PM

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:e71l5f$1k2$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <LbCdnaUz99GY1wnZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ez2.net> "Jeff Strickland"
<crwlr@yahoo.com> writes:

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:e6v9lu$53p$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <k6Fkg.89194$iB2.78888@bignews4.bellsouth.net> WallyCleaver
<ohwallydont@bellsouth.net> writes:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

Why not? It's not up to the government to judge your religion.

While I agree that government has no place judging one's religion, I
think
the government can ignore requests for displays of non-bonafied religions
or
sects.

So you think it's one of the government's duties to decide which sets
of spiritual beliefs are "bona fide"?

How shall we decide? I know Protestants who think that Catholics
are idol worshipers bound for hell. I sometimes spar with Catholics
who hold strong beliefs the other way around. Shall we let Congress
settle this ancient debate? Or how about Jehovah's Witnesses, is that a
"bona fide" religion? Christian Science? Shinto? Rael? Sufism?

I'm not sure, but I think I raised pretty much the same issues with my
question, "Having said that, how would such a standard be administered?"
which you conviently snipped.
I try very hard to confine each subject within a topic to a paragraph. You
constantly break the paragraph at a convient point that makes my statements
appear to be precisely what they are not.

Death and burial are solemn occasions, and I think the government has a
right and duty to not allow one to demean the memory of others by
including
every crackpot request for a symbol.

I'm not sure I said anything like that. I was addressing the "Royal Order of
Buffalo Nuts" and the "religious" symbol they might want. There are those
that would create a religion to be placed on a head stone for no other
reason than to embarrass everybody else.
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	20 Jun 2006 04:00:42 AM

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:29:25 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote
(in article <LbCdnaUz99GY1wnZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ez2.net>):

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:e6v9lu$53p$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <k6Fkg.89194$iB2.78888@bignews4.bellsouth.net> WallyCleaver
<ohwallydont@bellsouth.net> writes:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

Why not? It's not up to the government to judge your religion.

"Fill out this form and return it with a sketch of the symbol which you want
on your husband's/father's/mother's/lson's/daughter's tombstone. Symbols
which three of the five members on the review board consider to be "obscene"
or in questionable taste will not be allowed."
++ gray

Death and burial are solemn occasions, and I think the government has a
right and duty to not allow one to demean the memory of others by including
every crackpot request for a symbol. Of course, I suppose such a view is
what got us to this particular lawsuit.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	30 Jun 2006 02:23:59 AM

Wearing the falsie of WallyCleaver, an imbecile wrote:

If my religion is the Royal Order of Buffalo Testicles can
I put a cod sack on my tombstone?

Just curious

I seriously doubt that you have earned a
military tombstone in a military cemetery.
You appear to be pretty much of a
(hm,m,m - how shall I put it?) coward.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
Shockley's Exception to Godwin's
Law: When someone is quoting
hitler and his sycophants or
emulating hitler's actions,
Godwin's Law is irrelevant.
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	14 Jun 2006 01:43:07 PM

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:22:43 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote:

Bimbo! Er, uh, bingo!

I'm pretty sure this display is restricted to gravestones, and does not
apply across the landscape. I could be wrong on that though.

As far as I can tell, you're totally correct.

But in the simplest terms, that is the bottom line as
I understand it. Obviously, nothing is ever that simple.

This really appears to be. The VA /appears/ to have a list of acceptable
faiths and you can't be a dead person of another faith and have your religion
carved into your tombstone.
My guess is that VA just doesn't want to deal with dominionists and other
power freaks and has been awaiting either a threat of lawsuit or an actual
lawsuit to "force" them to "do the right thing". That way the
anti-Constitutioninists will be pacified because "that nasty ACLU and the
courts made us do it".
Anticipating, perhaps, Young Master Clifford's next gambit, should religion
be allowed on ID Tags.
/ Gray /

</top post>

buckeye-elo@nospam.net wrote:

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8269&news_iv_ctrl=0&abbr=pr

Veterans Affairs Department Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial
Markers At Government Cemeteries, Says Americans United
Thursday, June 8, 2006

Americans United Asks Veterans Affairs Department To Respect Religious
Diversity, Approve Pentacle For Wiccan Soldier Killed In Afghanistan

The Department of Veterans Affairs must recognize religious diversity by
allowing a Wiccan symbol on the memorial marker of a soldier who died in
Afghanistan, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

In a June 7 letter to R. James Nicholson, secretary of Veterans Affairs,
and
William F. Tuerk, under secretary for Memorial Affairs, AU requests that
the
widow of Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart be permitted to place a Wiccan pentacle
on
his marker and that the department extend that same right to other Wiccan
families.

Stewart, a Wiccan, was killed in Afghanistan on Sept. 25, 2005. The Nevada
resident was a highly decorated Army soldier who was awarded the Bronze
Star, the Purple Heart and other honors. His widow, Roberta Stewart, has
repeatedly sought to have the Wiccan pentacle placed on his marker, but
Veterans Affairs officials have not responded.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, called the
situation outrageous.

"A brave man died in service to his country," Lynn said. "The federal
government has a duty to allow his widow to honor his chosen faith.

"Aside from the constitutional issues raised, this is a simple matter of
justice and common decency," Lynn continued. "I am hopeful the Veterans
Affairs Department will do the right thing and extend full recognition to
Wiccans and their families."

Wiccans have been trying for at least nine years to persuade the National
Cemetery Administration to add the pentacle to its list of approved
emblems
for government headstones, markers, and plaques. Most recently, the Rev.
Selena Fox of Circle Sanctuary in Wisconsin filed an application in
January
2006, but the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National Cemetery
Administration have failed to act on it. A department official refused to
even provide a time-frame for issuing a decision.

"The National Cemetery Administration's failure to recognize the Wiccan
Pentacle as a valid religious symbol constitutes unconstitutional
discrimination against the Wiccan faith and its adherents," wrote Aram A.
Schvey, AU litigation counsel, in the letter to Nicholson and Tuerk.
"Indeed, there is absolutely no legal support for the Administration's
practice of maintaining a list of officially-approved religious symbols
much
less its exclusion of any religious symbol from the officially provided
markers for military gravesites."

Schvey added, "Sergeant Stewart gave his life fulfilling his oath to
protect
and defend the Constitution, including the First Amendment protections
that
have allowed him and his family the freedom to worship as they choose. It
is
a cruel irony that the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National
Cemetery Administration, rather than extending the thanks of a grateful
nation to the family of a fallen soldier, are undermining the
constitutional
guarantees of religious freedom for which Sgt. Stewart fought and died."

The letter requests that the Department of Veterans Affairs respond within
30 days to avoid litigation.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS á Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken

User: "Jeff Strickland"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	14 Jun 2006 09:44:15 PM

"Gray Shockley" <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C0B5C2EB0003225FF0284530@news.giganews.com...

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:22:43 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote:

Bimbo! Er, uh, bingo!

I'm pretty sure this display is restricted to gravestones, and does not
apply across the landscape. I could be wrong on that though.

As far as I can tell, you're totally correct.

But in the simplest terms, that is the bottom line as
I understand it. Obviously, nothing is ever that simple.

This really appears to be. The VA /appears/ to have a list of acceptable
faiths and you can't be a dead person of another faith and have your
religion
carved into your tombstone.

My guess is that VA just doesn't want to deal with dominionists and other
power freaks and has been awaiting either a threat of lawsuit or an actual
lawsuit to "force" them to "do the right thing". That way the
anti-Constitutioninists will be pacified because "that nasty ACLU and the
courts made us do it".

Anticipating, perhaps, Young Master Clifford's next gambit, should
religion
be allowed on ID Tags.

Gosh, I finally got something right. See, there IS a God. ;-)
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	16 Jun 2006 12:33:09 AM

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:44:15 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote
(in article <kKGdnVlod5zhVA3ZnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@ez2.net>):

"Gray Shockley" <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C0B5C2EB0003225FF0284530@news.giganews.com...

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:22:43 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote:

Bimbo! Er, uh, bingo!

I'm pretty sure this display is restricted to gravestones, and does not
apply across the landscape. I could be wrong on that though.

As far as I can tell, you're totally correct.

But in the simplest terms, that is the bottom line as
I understand it. Obviously, nothing is ever that simple.

This really appears to be. The VA /appears/ to have a list of acceptable
faiths and you can't be a dead person of another faith and have your
religion
carved into your tombstone.

My guess is that VA just doesn't want to deal with dominionists and other
power freaks and has been awaiting either a threat of lawsuit or an actual
lawsuit to "force" them to "do the right thing". That way the
anti-Constitutioninists will be pacified because "that nasty ACLU and the
courts made us do it".

Anticipating, perhaps, Young Master Clifford's next gambit, should
religion
be allowed on ID Tags.

Gosh, I finally got something right. See, there IS a God. ;-)

I'm quite well aware of Her.
In fact, She has the distinction of being complemented
when someone says, "She sucks".
Gray Shockley
------------------
... a government committed to a policy of
improving the nation by improving the condition
of some of the individuals will eventually run
into trouble in attempting to distinguish between
a national good and a chocolate sundae.
- E. B. White
.

User: "The Watch Dog"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	17 Jun 2006 02:55:06 AM

Gray Shockley wrote:

Anticipating, perhaps, Young Master Clifford's next gambit, should religion
be allowed on ID Tags.

Ken's next gambit will be to flee the conversation and go on to another
thread where he can compare apples and oranges, and never, ever, ever
admit to making a mistake or being unfair.
.

User: "The Watch Dog"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	12 Jun 2006 12:37:33 PM

Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:

Christian symbols have always been permitted on memorial markers at
government cemetaries. This was simply a case of letting Wiccans have
the same rights that Christians have always had. There was no hypocrisy
involved whatsoever.
.

User: "The Watch Dog"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	12 Jun 2006 07:55:17 PM

The Watch Dog wrote:

Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:

By the way, Ken, given this error on your part, don't you think "the
Left" deserves an apology?
.

User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	13 Jun 2006 06:37:48 AM

The Watch Dog wrote:

Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:

By the way, Ken, given this error on your part, don't you think "the
Left" deserves an apology?

Where was a wrong? The AU sues AGAINST Christian symbols in
government. The AU sues FOR witchcraft symbols in government. What
part of that is wrong?
Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	13 Jun 2006 11:39:14 AM

In article <1150198668.568270.45820@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:

The Watch Dog wrote:

Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:

By the way, Ken, given this error on your part, don't you think "the
Left" deserves an apology?

Where was a wrong? The AU sues AGAINST Christian symbols in
government. The AU sues FOR witchcraft symbols in government. What
part of that is wrong?

Has Americans United sued to have crosses and stars of David removed
from this same cemetary?
Their point is simply that if you are going to allow someone's religion,
you must allow everyone's religion.
And yes, to be utterly unreasonably senselessly disproportionately
self-consistent, they might sue to have all religious symbols
removed from all grave markers. But no one, from me to the
Reverend Lynn, thinks that the principle needs to be
extended to mucking about the graves of those who died
for this country. Probably because I, and he, remember
what Emerson said about small minds and hobgoblins.
-- cary
.

User: ""
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	13 Jun 2006 06:48:09 AM

No debate of any sort required on this topic.
When an American DIES FOR THIS COUNTRY
they can put anything they want on their own headstone
If any real American caught you messing with a dead veteran's
headstone, in any way, any sense, they would beat your fucking head in.
What kind of American are you?
like someone who dies for the country needs the PERMISSION of some sat
at home civilian jerkoff.
It amazes me someone WOULD DARE open their mouth
What a hideous shameful dishonor - seeking to rob a dead veteran on his
own grave
that takes some nerve
you can go to Europe, and those people to this very day honor the
graves of WW2 soldiers
and one of our own people seeks to sabotage one at home?
Bush causes this.
His followers are garbage - has to be a Bush follower
who else who seek to rob a dead soldier of his own religion
.

User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	13 Jun 2006 06:50:19 AM

wrote:

No debate of any sort required on this topic.

When an American DIES FOR THIS COUNTRY
they can put anything they want on their own headstone

If any real American caught you messing with a dead veteran's
headstone, in any way, any sense, they would beat your fucking head in.

What kind of American are you?
like someone who dies for the country needs the PERMISSION of some sat
at home civilian jerkoff.

It amazes me someone WOULD DARE open their mouth
What a hideous shameful dishonor - seeking to rob a dead veteran on his
own grave
that takes some nerve

you can go to Europe, and those people to this very day honor the
graves of WW2 soldiers

and one of our own people seeks to sabotage one at home?

Bush causes this.
His followers are garbage - has to be a Bush follower
who else who seek to rob a dead soldier of his own religion

So, you agree that having religion in Government is acceptable. Got
it. Further, you agree that the AU is contradictory. Got it.
Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.

User: "The Watch Dog"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	13 Jun 2006 01:50:22 PM

Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:

So, you agree that having religion in Government is acceptable.

Ken, you speak in such broad generalties that you miss what's actually
going on. "Having religion in government" is such a broad and vague
phrase that you would be hard put to find sensible people who either
completely agree or completely disagree with it.
It is NOT hypocritical to say that a soldier buried in a government
cemetary should be allowed to have the symbol of his religion on his
gravestone, while also saying that a judge in a courtroom should not
have the symbol of his religion behid him on the wall. You may see them
as being identical, because they're both "having religion in
government," but everybody else sees that they're two entirely
different cases.
In both cases the decisions are not "anti-Christian," because they
apply to ALL religious symbols - Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu, etc.
However, the current government policy on military cemetaries is very
specifically pro-Christian (Christian symbols are allowed; it's also
pro-Jewish and so on) and anti-Wiccan (Wiccan symbols are not allowed).
And that's why the ACLU is taking a position, because the government
shouldn't favor some religions over others.
Do you think it's right for the government to not allow a Wiccan symbol
on the gravestone of a Wiccan soldier who died for his country? Or do
you agree with the ACLU in this case?
.

User: "Seamus"
Title: Re: VA Must Accommodate Wiccan Symbol On Memorial Markers At Government Cemeteries	13 Jun 2006 11:47:29 AM

Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:

So, you agree that having religion in Government is acceptable. Got
it. Further, you agree that the AU is contradictory. Got it.

In the most ackbasswards, twisted, and biased way possible, sure, they
agreed with you.
But you had to do some SEEEEEEREEEOUS logic-twisting to get there.
This isn't about "The Left being hipocrytes". This is about honoring a
dead veterans' rights.
You have not only read too far into this, but you have made Mt. Everest
out of a pebble.
Get over yourself, and have a nice day.
.