What’s the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial



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Topic: Sociology > Education
User: "T James"
Date: 06 Jun 2005 12:03:51 AM
Object: What’s the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial
BreakPoint Commentaries
http://www.pfm.org
What’s the Matter with Darwinists?
The Truth about the Scopes Trial
May 20, 2005
[Excerpt]
"...These myths were exposed a few years ago when a Pulitzer Prize-winning book
took on the vicious fictions perpetrated by this motion picture. The book is
called Summer for the Gods, and the author is Edward Larson, a history
professor at the University of Georgia and a Christian. Larson says that
Inherit the Wind has become a 'formative myth' that has all but replaced the
actual trial in the nation’s memory."
--
..
"The Purpose and Limits of Government,"
by Roger Pilon, 1999 (PDF, screen optimized, 256 kb)
http://www.cato.org/pubs/catosletters/cl-13.pdf
(Hardcopy $1.00, call 800-767-1241)
.

User: "Secret Squirrel"

Title: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_What=92s_the_Matter_with_Darwinists?_The_Truth_abou 06 Jun 2005 01:36:25 PM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
ec12_13@yahoo.com.INVALID (T James) wrote in
news:42a3cb27_2@newspeer2.tds.net:
NGs trimmed.

BreakPoint Commentaries
http://www.pfm.org

What’s the Matter with Darwinists?
The Truth about the Scopes Trial
May 20, 2005

[Excerpt]
"...These myths were exposed a few years ago when a
Pulitzer Prize-winning book took on the vicious fictions
perpetrated by this motion picture. The book is called
Summer for the Gods, and the author is Edward Larson, a
history professor at the University of Georgia and a
Christian. Larson says that Inherit the Wind has become a
'formative myth' that has all but replaced the actual trial
in the nation’s memory."

Does he also mention that the whole thing was a set-up by
the city fathers of Dayton, TN, as a publicity stunt?
Of course, none of this really matters, as evolutionary biology
doesn't depend on the accuracy of some book, or a Hollywood
movie, for its validity.
Secret Squirrel
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.
User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_What=92s_the_Matter_with_Darwinists?_The_Truth_abou 06 Jun 2005 02:41:38 PM
In article <DIJOL4AE38509.5669560185@anonymous.poster> Secret Squirrel <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> writes:


ec12_13@yahoo.com.INVALID (T James) wrote in
news:42a3cb27_2@newspeer2.tds.net:

NGs trimmed.

BreakPoint Commentaries
http://www.pfm.org

What’s the Matter with Darwinists?
The Truth about the Scopes Trial
May 20, 2005

[Excerpt]
"...These myths were exposed a few years ago when a
Pulitzer Prize-winning book took on the vicious fictions
perpetrated by this motion picture. The book is called
Summer for the Gods, and the author is Edward Larson, a
history professor at the University of Georgia and a
Christian. Larson says that Inherit the Wind has become a
'formative myth' that has all but replaced the actual trial
in the nation’s memory."


Does he also mention that the whole thing was a set-up by
the city fathers of Dayton, TN, as a publicity stunt?

Oh he do, he do indeed. He paints quite a vivid picture
of the town boosters sitting around the drug store/soda shop,
casting about for a way to bring a little revenue into
Dayton, which was dying. The ACLU had actually taken
ads out in local papers soliciting for a candidate
to test the law. The locals understood that the publicity
could be priceless, and asked Scopes, who had only been
a substitue biology teacher, if he had taught evolution.
Scopes couldn't remember (and later, neither could his students),
but as the drug store also sold school books, they went
and pulled down the standard biology text. Evolution was
indeed in the textbook, so Scopes reckoned that he must
have mentioned it. This established, more or less, they
asked Scopes if he would be willing to be arrested, and
he allowed as how he would, so the court bailiff (iirc),
arrested him on the spot, and then Scopes and the bailiff
wandered off to play some tennis.
Dayton thought they had things sewed up at this point,
but nearby Chattanooga began making noises about trying
to attract the trial to their town instead. The Dayton
boosters reacted with considerable hostility to Chattannooga's
attempt to horn in on their act, and eventually prevailed.
I am in fact related to Austin Peay, the governor who
put his signature the disputed law. He did so with
great reluctance, forseeing, correctly, that it could
cause Tennessee to become a laughingstock.


Of course, none of this really matters, as evolutionary biology
doesn't depend on the accuracy of some book, or a Hollywood
movie, for its validity.

Or play -- "Inherit the Wind" was originally a play for the
stage, and was intended as a protest to McCarthyism. I'm
not sure how faithful the movie might be to the original stage.
script.
-- cary
.


User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: What’s the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial 06 Jun 2005 11:17:30 AM
In article <42a3cb27_2@newspeer2.tds.net> ec12_13@yahoo.com.INVALID (T James) writes:

BreakPoint Commentaries
http://www.pfm.org

What’s the Matter with Darwinists?
The Truth about the Scopes Trial
May 20, 2005

[Excerpt]
"...These myths were exposed a few years ago when a Pulitzer Prize-winning book
took on the vicious fictions perpetrated by this motion picture. The book is
called Summer for the Gods, and the author is Edward Larson, a history
professor at the University of Georgia and a Christian. Larson says that
Inherit the Wind has become a 'formative myth' that has all but replaced the
actual trial in the nation’s memory."

Yes, this was an excellent book, and yes, most of what we collectively
"know" about the Scopes trial is false. And it's false because
most of what we "know" is based on "Inherit the Wind", which --
as Larson himself points out -- was in no way intended to be
a true history of the trial, but which re-shaped the Scopes trial
in order to make it a metaphor for the McCarthy anti-communist witch hunts
which were in full roar when "Inherit the Wind".
None of which has anything at all to do with "Darwinists".
-- cary
.

User: ""

Title: Re: What's the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial 06 Jun 2005 02:53:23 AM
In the real Scopes Trial of 1925, Clarence Darrow and the ACLU argued
that the law that forbade the teaching of any aspect of evolution, was
unconstitutional because it benefitted a particular religious group,
and so violates the First Amendment. Eight scholarly-looking people
came in to give evidence for evolution, but scientists today don't use
the evidence that those eight people used. The evidence used in the
trial was poor.
William Jennings Bryan, on the other hand, said the problem with
evolution is that it excuses crime. One can say it's just how they
were born and how their ancestors were, and so escape responsibility
for their crime.
Darrow and the ACLU said that the bible does not belong in science, and
said flat-out that miracles are unreasonable and untrue.
Bryan said that the word "day" in the Bible does not mean a 24-hour
period, but rather a period of time. In the movie, he was convinced of
this, but in real life, Bryan said this from the beginning, did not
need to be convinced of it.
Bryan won, and Scopes was fined.
The Tennessee Supreme Court overturned the verdict though because it
said the jury should have determined Scopes' fine, not the judge.
In 1968, the US Supreme Court ruled in Epperson v Arkansas that a ban
on teaching evolution does benefit a particular religious group, and so
violates the First Amendment.
..
.
User: "ZenIsWhen"

Title: Re: What's the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial 06 Jun 2005 11:48:28 AM
<nitin_paul_batra@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118044403.113348.24400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
To answer teh questin - nothing.
There is, however, a LOT wrong with fantical religous zealots who not only
know nothing about religion or science - but know little about REAL history!

In the real Scopes Trial of 1925, Clarence Darrow and the ACLU argued
that the law that forbade the teaching of any aspect of evolution, was
unconstitutional because it benefitted a particular religious group,
and so violates the First Amendment. Eight scholarly-looking people
came in to give evidence for evolution, but scientists today don't use
the evidence that those eight people used. The evidence used in the
trial was poor.

William Jennings Bryan, on the other hand, said the problem with
evolution is that it excuses crime. One can say it's just how they
were born and how their ancestors were, and so escape responsibility
for their crime.

Darrow and the ACLU said that the bible does not belong in science, and
said flat-out that miracles are unreasonable and untrue.

Bryan said that the word "day" in the Bible does not mean a 24-hour
period, but rather a period of time. In the movie, he was convinced of
this, but in real life, Bryan said this from the beginning, did not
need to be convinced of it.

Bryan won, and Scopes was fined.

The Tennessee Supreme Court overturned the verdict though because it
said the jury should have determined Scopes' fine, not the judge.

In 1968, the US Supreme Court ruled in Epperson v Arkansas that a ban
on teaching evolution does benefit a particular religious group, and so
violates the First Amendment.









.

.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: What's the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial 06 Jun 2005 03:26:41 PM
wrote:

In the real Scopes Trial of 1925, Clarence Darrow and the ACLU argued
that the law that forbade the teaching of any aspect of evolution, was
unconstitutional because it benefitted a particular religious group,
and so violates the First Amendment. Eight scholarly-looking people
came in to give evidence for evolution, but scientists today don't use
the evidence that those eight people used.

Of course. Science has advanced in 80 years, and has much better
evidence.

The evidence used in the trial was poor.

Your unsubstantiated and inexpert opinion is noted.

William Jennings Bryan, on the other hand, said the problem with
evolution is that it excuses crime. One can say it's just how they
were born and how their ancestors were, and so escape responsibility
for their crime.

Such an argument betrays a total lack of understanding of evolution,
since evolution doesn't excuse anything. That actually sounds like a
religious argument: man was born in sin because his ancestors sinned,
and thus he should escape punishment for sin. But evolution says
nothing about "responsibility" nor about idiosyncratic individual
behavior at all.

Darrow and the ACLU said that the bible does not belong in science,

It doesn't.

and said flat-out that miracles are unreasonable and untrue.

They aren't "reasonable". If they were "reasonable", then they would
not seem miraculous. In any event, they aren't science.

Bryan said that the word "day" in the Bible does not mean a 24-hour
period, but rather a period of time. In the movie, he was convinced of
this, but in real life, Bryan said this from the beginning, did not
need to be convinced of it.

Bryan's opinion was utterly irrelevant.

Bryan won,

He won the case, but lost the war, since he showed that his position
was foolish.

and Scopes was fined.

That was expected, and was needed in order to allow a challenge to the
law.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: ""

Title: Re: What's the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial 06 Jun 2005 07:17:43 PM
Bob LeChevalier wrote:

William Jennings Bryan, on the other hand, said the problem with
evolution is that it excuses crime. One can say it's just how they
were born and how their ancestors were, and so escape responsibility
for their crime.


Such an argument betrays a total lack of understanding of evolution,
since evolution doesn't excuse anything.

There WAS a time when evolution was used to justify
capitalism. There was also a period of using evolution
to justify eugenics and phrenology. ("Born criminals"
and all that.)
Of course, today, attempts to justify capitalism are
limited to sociobiology.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: What's the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial 09 Jun 2005 02:36:27 AM
The other attempt to justify capitalism is showing that working people
are more prosperous in the nato countries than any other countries,
proving that the economic policies of the nato countries are the most
successful.
.



User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: What's the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial 06 Jun 2005 11:23:27 AM
In article <1118044403.113348.24400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
writes:

In the real Scopes Trial of 1925, Clarence Darrow and the ACLU argued
that the law that forbade the teaching of any aspect of evolution, was
unconstitutional because it benefitted a particular religious group,
and so violates the First Amendment. Eight scholarly-looking people
came in to give evidence for evolution, but scientists today don't use
the evidence that those eight people used. The evidence used in the
trial was poor.

William Jennings Bryan, on the other hand, said the problem with
evolution is that it excuses crime. One can say it's just how they
were born and how their ancestors were, and so escape responsibility
for their crime.

Darrow and the ACLU said that the bible does not belong in science, and
said flat-out that miracles are unreasonable and untrue.

Bryan said that the word "day" in the Bible does not mean a 24-hour
period, but rather a period of time. In the movie, he was convinced of
this, but in real life, Bryan said this from the beginning, did not
need to be convinced of it.

Bryan won, and Scopes was fined.

The Tennessee Supreme Court overturned the verdict though because it
said the jury should have determined Scopes' fine, not the judge.

In 1968, the US Supreme Court ruled in Epperson v Arkansas that a ban
on teaching evolution does benefit a particular religious group, and so
violates the First Amendment.

I'd add only that Darrow and the ACLU were pulling in two different
directions. The ACLU at this time was not interested in church/state
issues, and looked on this situation as a labor (teacher's) rights
case. Darrow, militantly atheistic, rather elbowed his way
in when he heard that Bryan would be on the opposing side, and
a dazzled Scopes -- Darrow was quite the celebrity by this point--
a star-struck Scopes accepted Darrow's offer, much to the dismay
of the ACLU, who felt the whole case starting to spin out of
their control; the last thing they wanted was the debate on
religion that Darrow was aching to stage.
At least this is my impressions from having read the aforementioned
book some years ago; I'll happily entertain corrections.
-- cary
.


User: ""

Title: Re: What's the Matter with Darwinists? The Truth about the Scopes Trial 06 Jun 2005 12:17:27 PM
T James wrote:
<***** snipped>
The Scopes trial is a confusing matter:
Bryan's main problem with evolution was that it could
be misinterpreted to rationalize capitalism. Yes, you
heard me. He must be rolling over in his grave right
now, with the fundamentalists of today.
Darrow, OTOH, argued that the laws against teaching
evolution favored one particular religious group.
However, and this is an important difference,
Darrow's evidence in favor of evolution isn't the
same evidence used by scientists today.
.


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