WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE



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Topic: Sociology > Education
User: "Dana"
Date: 14 Aug 2004 08:27:53 PM
Object: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By
7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats and
Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative. It is
designed to create class division and envy and cause the working class to
question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However, this
focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar amounts
received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is progress of
the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a particular
rich person's salary might be.
Actually the Democrat obsession with "tax cuts for the rich" and the
supposedly growing gap between rich and poor is classic Marxist garbage. It
is an egalitarian sentiment that is wholly misplaced. I personally don't
care how rich the richest of us are as long as the average guy is getting
along and seeing his conditions improve as well. The fallacy of the Liberal
obsession with the inequality of earnings is that their solution to it-to
effectively limit earnings of the rich through heavily progressive
taxation-only really hurts the little guys in the end.
The reason for this is that rich people spending money makes the economy run
in America and really around the whole world. Rich folks buy big houses,
fill them with furniture and gadgets, they buy expensive cars, eat at
expensive restaurants, take expensive vacations, send their kids to private
schools and universities, and more. All of these activities requires
somebody, or typically lots of somebodies, on the back end building and
manufacturing the things rich folks buy and providing the services the rich
use. If we suddenly cut the disposable income of the "rich" in half
tomorrow, unemployment would become rampant and businesses providing these
products and services cut back and/or go out of business.
As Tom Nugent wrote in National Review in 2001, the Democrats received a
hard lesson in supply-side economics back in the late 1980s. Planning to
soak the greedy rich, Congress imposed a huge luxury tax on the purchase of
leisure yachts. Predictably (for those of us who understand how capitalism
works), the rich did not end up paying the tax. Instead, they simply didn't
buy the yachts. Demand for domestic yacht sales plummeted and, more
importantly, over 120,000 yacht industry workers lost their jobs.
Ironically, many of these workers were probably the very people the
Democrats intended to benefit from the social spending they thought the new
tax would allow. Let me ask you, do you think the "little guy" was better
off because the rich paid higher taxes in this case?
Disposeable income spending by the wealthy is only one aspect of the rich
driving the economy. Rich people start businesses. More accurately, people
that start successful businesses often become rich. If rich people spending
money is the lubricant that greases the sleds of our economy, the American
small business is the duct tape that ties all industries and sectors of the
economy together and provides the vast majority of employment growth.
Through tax cuts, small business owners have more income to re-invest in
their companies. No, they do not hoard their tax cuts in mattresses and
piggy banks, they put the money to use by growing their businesses. This is
the natural tendency of companies in the capitalist system, to expand and
grow. When companies grow they hire more people and can create better
paying jobs.
All of this increased economic activity feeds on itself. The growth creates
more income earners with more money to spend. Even more growth is fueled as
a result, and amazingly enough, because total economic activity increases,
tax revenue to the government can and does actually go up. This is the
essence of Reagan's much maligned "trickle-down economics." Through
spurring greater economic activity, tax cuts actually increase tax revenues
while improving economic activity for average people. Even John F. Kennedy,
everyone's favorite Democrat, believed in this methodology as he offered an
unprecedentedly large tax cut as President in 1962.
Now that we have justified tax cuts to the wealthy, lets look at a related
claim. No matter what the nature of the tax cut, Democrats always like to
say that the bulk of the cuts went to the rich. This is a matter of
statistical manipulation. We all know 10% of $100,000 is more than 10% of
$10,000. So you see how two people could get the same cut in terms of
percentage but the one who earned and paid in more to start with gets more
back in terms of total dollars. Yet some people insist that this is not
fair and claim that the rich should pay a higher percentage in order to pay
"their fair share." The Liberal justification for this is the inherent
unfairness of capitalism. To a Democrat, for anyone to get rich and be
successful in America, he has to have screwed some poor people to do it.
Therefore, it is only "right" that he pay a greater percentage of his income
to the government, because we all know the government can make better
decisions about how to spend that money than each of us can individually.
This reveals another great fallacy the left owns about government. Every
Liberal believes the greater good is achieved by giving money to the
government. Somehow they cannot allow or are unwilling to depend on
charitable contributions from individuals. How liberals who give no money
to charity but advocate higher taxes for all can be considered more moral
that Conservatives fighting for lower taxes AND giving tons to charity is
beyond me. And, much like the environmental hypocrites who drive SUVs and
then demand alternative energy sources, Liberals want higher taxes for you
and me, yet they still itemize their tax returns in a quest to pay the
minimum amount owed. Perhaps if the 20% of persons calling themselves
Liberal in this country would pay extra into the IRS, we wouldn't need to
raise taxes on the rest of us to pay for all the social spending the
Liberals want in the first place. It is no coincidence the U.S. is the
lowest taxed large economy in the world and also the most generous nation in
terms of personal charitable giving. Raise taxes and you remove money
available to individuals for contributions.
What's more efficient and equitable? Individuals making personal choices on
to whom and where to give charitable donations, money that is received
directly by those doing the good work, or giving money to the government,
which will suck away and waste most of it in bureaucratic overhead,
resulting in fewer net dollars available to the end user to provide social
services? We should have the right to choose for ourselves how, when and
how much of our money should go to compassionate causes. Further, we should
be the ones to decide which causes are compassionate based on our personal
definitions of the word.
Back on topic, lets talk about small businesses. Many small business owners
started small. Many self-finance to get the operation off the ground.
Higher taxes mean less money in the pockets of entrepreneurs. Without small
businesses we'd be in a world of hurt. Lets take a look at some statistics
from the Small Business Administration concerning small businesses in the
U.S.:
Small businesses in the United States.
· Represent more than 99.7 percent of all employers;
· Employ more than half of all private sector employees ;
· Pay 44.5 percent of total U.S. private payroll;
· Generate 60 to 80 percent of net new jobs annually;
· Create more than 50 percent of nonfarm private gross domestic
product (GDP);
· Produce 13 to 14 times more patents per employee than large
patenting firms. (This is a critical indicator of entrepreneurialism,
invention and innovation);
Employ 39 percent of high tech workers (such as scientists, engineers, and
computer workers );
Are 53 percent home-based and 3 percent franchises;
Made up 97 percent of all identified exporters and produced 29 percent of
the known export value in FY 2001.
Additionally, the SBA notes that in 2002 there were approximately 22.9
million small businesses in the United States. In terms of job creation, the
SBA notes that in 1999-2000
small businesses created three-quarters of U.S. net new jobs (2.5 million of
the 3.4 million total). Over the decade of the 1990s, small business net job
creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent of all new net jobs.
Moreover, according to a new Bureau of the Census working paper, start-ups
in the first two years of operation accounted for virtually all of the net
new jobs in the economy.
Let us be sure to define "net" new jobs. We hear job creation figures
kicked around a lot. Bush lost 2 million jobs, Bush created 1 million jobs,
etc. Lets forget for a moment that presidents do not create jobs at all. If
in the year 2000, we had 100 million jobs for example, and in 2001 we
created 1 million but lost 500,000, we have a net of 500,000 new jobs for
that year.
Of the total number of jobs in the United States, the SBA reports that the
small business share of total employment has remained steady at around 50
percent. Interestingly enough, SBA says that although small firms create
more than half of net new jobs, some small firms will become large firms as
new jobs are created. This is a significant point-that small firms sometimes
blossom into corporate powerhouses. After all, Microsoft and Dell were both
small businesses run out of the house at one point in their histories. SBA
notes that of 114.1 million nonfarm private sector workers in 2000, small
firms with fewer than 500 workers employed 57.1 million, large firms, 56.9
million. Smaller firms with fewer than 100 employees employed 40.9 million.
It is easy to see that small businesses are the lifeblood of the vibrant US
economy. We can also see that because our economy is so dependent on small
business job creation, that even modest increases in top end tax brackets
can have negative effects on the amount of money available in the economy
for small business entrepreneurialism, business growth and job creation.
What is the best way for government to promote small business? Get the hell
out of the way and let the American people pursue their dreams!
Capitalism is about risk taking. The market rewards those who have a good
idea and capital to invest in it when the idea is sound. Taxation at any
level has a depressive effect on such risk taking. Ideally, we would have
no taxation of any kind-unleashing the maximum amount of risk capital into
the economy. Obviously this is not realistic, we do have schools to run and
roads to build and armies to send to fight off terrorists. However, the
desires of Liberals to tax and tax to fund their ambitious and misguided
social programs serve to inflate taxation beyond what is reasonable. As a
result, money that would otherwise be circulating in the economy creating
jobs, is taking the form of a check for welfare recipients who would
otherwise have those jobs, and generally going to dozens of other social
programs that have sometimes noble goals but questionable results.
Heavy taxation discourages entrepreneurialism and acts as a disincentive to
succeed. Ultimately, all taxation does-at any level-is depress economic
activity. If you own a business and taxes go up, it just increased your
cost of doing business. You either have to cut expenses or increase revenue
to compensate, which almost always means passing the tax along to the
consumer. Which brings me to another point about taxation that I cannot take
credit for. Mr. Walter Williams once said businesses do not pay taxes. How
can this be, you say? Sure, they may write a check to the IRS and other
state and local entities, but they do not actually pay for the tax, you do.
Every cost of doing business is built into the price of the product or
service that business sells. Eventually every tax gets passed along to the
ultimate consumer, which is always the private citizen. We have no
customers of our own to pass our costs along to, other than our employers,
and as employees we rarely get the opportunity to arbitrarily raise our
prices (cost of labor, i.e. your salary) to compensate for increased
expenses.
The simplest way to explain the point is the sales tax. Most states impose
the sales tax on retail businesses. The legal burden to pay the tax is on
the company, not the consumer. However, the tax is simply passed along to us
as an additional price. Adding the tax at the cash register is merely a
marketing gimmick. Ever been to a furniture sale where it was advertised the
store would pay the tax on your purchases? In reality they are simply
giving you a discount on the final sales price equal to the sales tax rate.
They are already paying the tax on the sale regardless of whether you pay
them extra for the tax or not.
Imagine going into your boss's office and saying. "My property taxes just
went up 5%. As a result I'm going to have to raise my prices 2.3% for next
year to compensate. Just a cost of doing business, you know." I don't
imagine it would go over very well. But business do it all the time and
before modern conservatism brought us the wonderful concept of the tax
revolt, government did it all the time and to a degree still does somewhere
sometime every day in the United States. We can clearly see that raising
even corporate taxes ultimately increases your own personal cost of living,
since all those taxes aggregate from business to business and are ultimately
built into the products you and I buy.
Lets talk more about the "gap between rich and poor." What is never
reported in these discussions is that the vast majority of the poor do not
stay poor for their entire lives. A significant portion of "poor" families
are young, and from census to census they will gain work experience, receive
promotions and generally clime the economic ladder. There is a tremendous
amount of turnover within the poor classification. That is the great
strength to our system, people traverse economic strata every day. So it is
generally erroneous to suggest that the rich and poor groups are static and
unchanging, and therefore something is owed from the rich to the poor when
most of the rich were probably poor at one point in their past.
Sources:
http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/sbfaq.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_nugent/nugent092401.shtml
--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the state
at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.
.

User: "Roger"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 15 Aug 2004 12:47:22 AM
"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04

<snip>
Now you've completely lost it.
You put your trust in an email address.
Congratulations!
You are now eligible for Christianity!
Reject humans and put your trust in the talking snake in a tree story.
.

User: "Relaxification"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 17 Aug 2004 07:45:54 PM

Sources:
http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/sbfaq.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_nugent/nugent092401.shtml

Ahh. Trickle down economics. How quaint. I think I'll throw on a
cassette of Flock of Seagulls and play with a Cabbage Patch Kid or
two.
You, on the other hand, need to read an economics textbook or two.
Try it - it's actually fascinating, and not as difficult as it might
seem!
.
User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: WHY TAX HELP CUTS EVERYONE 17 Aug 2004 11:09:59 PM
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:45:54 -0500, Relaxification wrote
(in article <dae65ca5.0408171645.68717a0@posting.google.com>):

Sources:
http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/sbfaq.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_nugent/nugent092401.shtml


Ahh. Trickle down economics.

Or, as George Herbert Walker Bush referred to it: "voo-doo economics".
This must well be "Voo Doo Two".

How quaint. I think I'll throw on a
cassette of Flock of Seagulls and play with a Cabbage Patch Kid or
two.

You, on the other hand, need to read an economics textbook or two.
Try it - it's actually fascinating, and not as difficult as it might
seem!

++ Gray/ or Vu Du Too, if you live acrost the riva/
.


User: "Mark"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 14 Aug 2004 09:44:24 PM
Middle cut tax cuts help everyone.... Tax cuts for the wealthiest only
creates more burden on the middle class. Many people are cunfused about
job creation. We hear how tax cuts for the weathiest will help create jobs.
Jobs are created by the middle class buying products. So middle class tax
cuts help the rich, the middle class and the poor. Tax cuts for the
wealthiest help them, but no one else.
"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats and
Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative. It

is

designed to create class division and envy and cause the working class to
question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However, this
focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar amounts
received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is progress of
the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a

particular

rich person's salary might be.

Actually the Democrat obsession with "tax cuts for the rich" and the
supposedly growing gap between rich and poor is classic Marxist garbage.

It

is an egalitarian sentiment that is wholly misplaced. I personally don't
care how rich the richest of us are as long as the average guy is getting
along and seeing his conditions improve as well. The fallacy of the

Liberal

obsession with the inequality of earnings is that their solution to it-to
effectively limit earnings of the rich through heavily progressive
taxation-only really hurts the little guys in the end.

The reason for this is that rich people spending money makes the economy

run

in America and really around the whole world. Rich folks buy big houses,
fill them with furniture and gadgets, they buy expensive cars, eat at
expensive restaurants, take expensive vacations, send their kids to

private

schools and universities, and more. All of these activities requires
somebody, or typically lots of somebodies, on the back end building and
manufacturing the things rich folks buy and providing the services the

rich

use. If we suddenly cut the disposable income of the "rich" in half
tomorrow, unemployment would become rampant and businesses providing these
products and services cut back and/or go out of business.

As Tom Nugent wrote in National Review in 2001, the Democrats received a
hard lesson in supply-side economics back in the late 1980s. Planning to
soak the greedy rich, Congress imposed a huge luxury tax on the purchase

of

leisure yachts. Predictably (for those of us who understand how

capitalism

works), the rich did not end up paying the tax. Instead, they simply

didn't

buy the yachts. Demand for domestic yacht sales plummeted and, more
importantly, over 120,000 yacht industry workers lost their jobs.
Ironically, many of these workers were probably the very people the
Democrats intended to benefit from the social spending they thought the

new

tax would allow. Let me ask you, do you think the "little guy" was better
off because the rich paid higher taxes in this case?

Disposeable income spending by the wealthy is only one aspect of the rich
driving the economy. Rich people start businesses. More accurately,

people

that start successful businesses often become rich. If rich people

spending

money is the lubricant that greases the sleds of our economy, the American
small business is the duct tape that ties all industries and sectors of

the

economy together and provides the vast majority of employment growth.
Through tax cuts, small business owners have more income to re-invest in
their companies. No, they do not hoard their tax cuts in mattresses and
piggy banks, they put the money to use by growing their businesses. This

is

the natural tendency of companies in the capitalist system, to expand and
grow. When companies grow they hire more people and can create better
paying jobs.

All of this increased economic activity feeds on itself. The growth

creates

more income earners with more money to spend. Even more growth is fueled

as

a result, and amazingly enough, because total economic activity increases,
tax revenue to the government can and does actually go up. This is the
essence of Reagan's much maligned "trickle-down economics." Through
spurring greater economic activity, tax cuts actually increase tax

revenues

while improving economic activity for average people. Even John F.

Kennedy,

everyone's favorite Democrat, believed in this methodology as he offered

an

unprecedentedly large tax cut as President in 1962.

Now that we have justified tax cuts to the wealthy, lets look at a related
claim. No matter what the nature of the tax cut, Democrats always like to
say that the bulk of the cuts went to the rich. This is a matter of
statistical manipulation. We all know 10% of $100,000 is more than 10% of
$10,000. So you see how two people could get the same cut in terms of
percentage but the one who earned and paid in more to start with gets more
back in terms of total dollars. Yet some people insist that this is not
fair and claim that the rich should pay a higher percentage in order to

pay

"their fair share." The Liberal justification for this is the inherent
unfairness of capitalism. To a Democrat, for anyone to get rich and be
successful in America, he has to have screwed some poor people to do it.
Therefore, it is only "right" that he pay a greater percentage of his

income

to the government, because we all know the government can make better
decisions about how to spend that money than each of us can individually.

This reveals another great fallacy the left owns about government. Every
Liberal believes the greater good is achieved by giving money to the
government. Somehow they cannot allow or are unwilling to depend on
charitable contributions from individuals. How liberals who give no money
to charity but advocate higher taxes for all can be considered more moral
that Conservatives fighting for lower taxes AND giving tons to charity is
beyond me. And, much like the environmental hypocrites who drive SUVs and
then demand alternative energy sources, Liberals want higher taxes for you
and me, yet they still itemize their tax returns in a quest to pay the
minimum amount owed. Perhaps if the 20% of persons calling themselves
Liberal in this country would pay extra into the IRS, we wouldn't need to
raise taxes on the rest of us to pay for all the social spending the
Liberals want in the first place. It is no coincidence the U.S. is the
lowest taxed large economy in the world and also the most generous nation

in

terms of personal charitable giving. Raise taxes and you remove money
available to individuals for contributions.

What's more efficient and equitable? Individuals making personal choices

on

to whom and where to give charitable donations, money that is received
directly by those doing the good work, or giving money to the government,
which will suck away and waste most of it in bureaucratic overhead,
resulting in fewer net dollars available to the end user to provide social
services? We should have the right to choose for ourselves how, when and
how much of our money should go to compassionate causes. Further, we

should

be the ones to decide which causes are compassionate based on our personal
definitions of the word.

Back on topic, lets talk about small businesses. Many small business

owners

started small. Many self-finance to get the operation off the ground.
Higher taxes mean less money in the pockets of entrepreneurs. Without

small

businesses we'd be in a world of hurt. Lets take a look at some

statistics

from the Small Business Administration concerning small businesses in the
U.S.:

Small businesses in the United States.

· Represent more than 99.7 percent of all employers;
· Employ more than half of all private sector employees ;
· Pay 44.5 percent of total U.S. private payroll;
· Generate 60 to 80 percent of net new jobs annually;
· Create more than 50 percent of nonfarm private gross domestic
product (GDP);
· Produce 13 to 14 times more patents per employee than large
patenting firms. (This is a critical indicator of entrepreneurialism,
invention and innovation);
Employ 39 percent of high tech workers (such as scientists, engineers, and
computer workers );
Are 53 percent home-based and 3 percent franchises;
Made up 97 percent of all identified exporters and produced 29 percent of
the known export value in FY 2001.

Additionally, the SBA notes that in 2002 there were approximately 22.9
million small businesses in the United States. In terms of job creation,

the

SBA notes that in 1999-2000
small businesses created three-quarters of U.S. net new jobs (2.5 million

of

the 3.4 million total). Over the decade of the 1990s, small business net

job

creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent of all new net jobs.
Moreover, according to a new Bureau of the Census working paper, start-ups
in the first two years of operation accounted for virtually all of the net
new jobs in the economy.

Let us be sure to define "net" new jobs. We hear job creation figures
kicked around a lot. Bush lost 2 million jobs, Bush created 1 million

jobs,

etc. Lets forget for a moment that presidents do not create jobs at all.

If

in the year 2000, we had 100 million jobs for example, and in 2001 we
created 1 million but lost 500,000, we have a net of 500,000 new jobs for
that year.

Of the total number of jobs in the United States, the SBA reports that the
small business share of total employment has remained steady at around 50
percent. Interestingly enough, SBA says that although small firms create
more than half of net new jobs, some small firms will become large firms

as

new jobs are created. This is a significant point-that small firms

sometimes

blossom into corporate powerhouses. After all, Microsoft and Dell were

both

small businesses run out of the house at one point in their histories.

SBA

notes that of 114.1 million nonfarm private sector workers in 2000, small
firms with fewer than 500 workers employed 57.1 million, large firms, 56.9
million. Smaller firms with fewer than 100 employees employed 40.9

million.


It is easy to see that small businesses are the lifeblood of the vibrant

US

economy. We can also see that because our economy is so dependent on

small

business job creation, that even modest increases in top end tax brackets
can have negative effects on the amount of money available in the economy
for small business entrepreneurialism, business growth and job creation.
What is the best way for government to promote small business? Get the

hell

out of the way and let the American people pursue their dreams!

Capitalism is about risk taking. The market rewards those who have a good
idea and capital to invest in it when the idea is sound. Taxation at any
level has a depressive effect on such risk taking. Ideally, we would have
no taxation of any kind-unleashing the maximum amount of risk capital into
the economy. Obviously this is not realistic, we do have schools to run

and

roads to build and armies to send to fight off terrorists. However, the
desires of Liberals to tax and tax to fund their ambitious and misguided
social programs serve to inflate taxation beyond what is reasonable. As a
result, money that would otherwise be circulating in the economy creating
jobs, is taking the form of a check for welfare recipients who would
otherwise have those jobs, and generally going to dozens of other social
programs that have sometimes noble goals but questionable results.

Heavy taxation discourages entrepreneurialism and acts as a disincentive

to

succeed. Ultimately, all taxation does-at any level-is depress economic
activity. If you own a business and taxes go up, it just increased your
cost of doing business. You either have to cut expenses or increase

revenue

to compensate, which almost always means passing the tax along to the
consumer. Which brings me to another point about taxation that I cannot

take

credit for. Mr. Walter Williams once said businesses do not pay taxes.

How

can this be, you say? Sure, they may write a check to the IRS and other
state and local entities, but they do not actually pay for the tax, you

do.

Every cost of doing business is built into the price of the product or
service that business sells. Eventually every tax gets passed along to

the

ultimate consumer, which is always the private citizen. We have no
customers of our own to pass our costs along to, other than our employers,
and as employees we rarely get the opportunity to arbitrarily raise our
prices (cost of labor, i.e. your salary) to compensate for increased
expenses.

The simplest way to explain the point is the sales tax. Most states

impose

the sales tax on retail businesses. The legal burden to pay the tax is on
the company, not the consumer. However, the tax is simply passed along to

us

as an additional price. Adding the tax at the cash register is merely a
marketing gimmick. Ever been to a furniture sale where it was advertised

the

store would pay the tax on your purchases? In reality they are simply
giving you a discount on the final sales price equal to the sales tax

rate.

They are already paying the tax on the sale regardless of whether you pay
them extra for the tax or not.

Imagine going into your boss's office and saying. "My property taxes just
went up 5%. As a result I'm going to have to raise my prices 2.3% for next
year to compensate. Just a cost of doing business, you know." I don't
imagine it would go over very well. But business do it all the time and
before modern conservatism brought us the wonderful concept of the tax
revolt, government did it all the time and to a degree still does

somewhere

sometime every day in the United States. We can clearly see that raising
even corporate taxes ultimately increases your own personal cost of

living,

since all those taxes aggregate from business to business and are

ultimately

built into the products you and I buy.

Lets talk more about the "gap between rich and poor." What is never
reported in these discussions is that the vast majority of the poor do not
stay poor for their entire lives. A significant portion of "poor"

families

are young, and from census to census they will gain work experience,

receive

promotions and generally clime the economic ladder. There is a tremendous
amount of turnover within the poor classification. That is the great
strength to our system, people traverse economic strata every day. So it

is

generally erroneous to suggest that the rich and poor groups are static

and

unchanging, and therefore something is owed from the rich to the poor when
most of the rich were probably poor at one point in their past.

Sources:
http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/sbfaq.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_nugent/nugent092401.shtml

--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the

state

at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.


.
User: "William Lenz"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 15 Aug 2004 07:15:24 AM
"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message
news:10htjgj26cpj638@corp.supernews.com...

Middle cut tax cuts help everyone.... Tax cuts for the wealthiest only
creates more burden on the middle class.

If Joe Middle class is taxed at 23%.
If John Rich is taxed at 28%.
If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that direct
act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?

Many people are cunfused about
job creation. We hear how tax cuts for the weathiest will help create

jobs.
They do because many who pay that top margin tax (rich) may not be what one
would consider rich but an "S" busness owner who's income is directly tied
to the small busness they run. By cutting there tax rate they as a small
busness owner may reinvest that money in there busness either in the form of
capital equiptment in adding personel.

Jobs are created by the middle class buying products.

True and the reason why when tax cuts are given across the spectrum
(Rich-Poor) the economy improves. Any tax cut given to any group, as long as
its not accompanied by a major tax increase to another group will be
translated to the economy.

So middle class tax
cuts help the rich, the middle class and the poor. Tax cuts for the
wealthiest help them, but no one else.

Not true unless one offsets the tax cut of one, with an increase in tax on
another.
Aside from stuffing money in a mattress name me one activity or action in
handeling money that does not directly benifit economic growth for others?
It's weird how we can clearly see how the middle class tax cuts can and does
interpert into economic growth and job creation yet cannot seem to apply
that same principal to the rich. Additionally totaly ignoring the simple
fact that many of the so called rich are "s" busness owners who's actual
take home income may only translated to a middle class standing.
bill

"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats and
Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative.

It

is

designed to create class division and envy and cause the working class

to

question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However, this
focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar

amounts

received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is progress

of

the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a

particular

rich person's salary might be.

.
User: "zepp"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 15 Aug 2004 12:12:09 PM
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:15:24 GMT, "William Lenz"
<billlenz@earthlink.net> wrote:


"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message
news:10htjgj26cpj638@corp.supernews.com...

Middle cut tax cuts help everyone.... Tax cuts for the wealthiest only
creates more burden on the middle class.


If Joe Middle class is taxed at 23%.
If John Rich is taxed at 28%.
If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that direct
act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?

For starters, the numbers are artifical.
John Rich is seeing his cap gains reduced by 50%. That's most of his
taxable income.
Joe Middle pays 7.5% FICA. So does John Rich, but only on the first
20% of his income. That doesn't get cut.
Not only is Joe Middle seeing a bigger gouge into his living income
(he still pays the same for food as John Rich), but he's actually
paying a higher percentage in taxes.
In the meantime, John Rich takes the money he saved and uses it to
donate to the candidates he wants to run for offices, and sets up the
rules so Joe Middle can't run effectively and doesn't get any real
choice in who to vote for.


Many people are cunfused about
job creation. We hear how tax cuts for the weathiest will help create

jobs.

They do because many who pay that top margin tax (rich) may not be what one
would consider rich but an "S" busness owner who's income is directly tied
to the small busness they run. By cutting there tax rate they as a small
busness owner may reinvest that money in there busness either in the form of
capital equiptment in adding personel.

Jobs are created by the middle class buying products.


True and the reason why when tax cuts are given across the spectrum
(Rich-Poor) the economy improves. Any tax cut given to any group, as long as
its not accompanied by a major tax increase to another group will be
translated to the economy.

So middle class tax
cuts help the rich, the middle class and the poor. Tax cuts for the
wealthiest help them, but no one else.


Not true unless one offsets the tax cut of one, with an increase in tax on
another.
Aside from stuffing money in a mattress name me one activity or action in
handeling money that does not directly benifit economic growth for others?
It's weird how we can clearly see how the middle class tax cuts can and does
interpert into economic growth and job creation yet cannot seem to apply
that same principal to the rich. Additionally totaly ignoring the simple
fact that many of the so called rich are "s" busness owners who's actual
take home income may only translated to a middle class standing.

bill

"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats and
Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative.

It

is

designed to create class division and envy and cause the working class

to

question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However, this
focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar

amounts

received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is progress

of

the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a

particular

rich person's salary might be.



-
"And I deeply resent the destruction of federalism represented by Hillary Clinton’s willingness to go into a state she doesn’t even live in and pretend to represent people there. So I certainly wouldn’t imitate it.”
Alan Keyes (R-Hypocrite) on Fox News, "Special Report with Brit Hume," March 17, 2000
"Pre-emptive war was invented by Adolf Hitler. To be perfectly honest,
I wouldn't take anyone who came up with such a thing seriously".
Dwight Eisenhower (legitimately elected President), 1953

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
.
User: "Dana"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 15 Aug 2004 03:02:34 PM
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:v36vh09vj45dso64nbmmeodqbcklerl7lf@4ax.com...

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:15:24 GMT, "William Lenz"
<billlenz@earthlink.net> wrote:


"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message
news:10htjgj26cpj638@corp.supernews.com...

Middle cut tax cuts help everyone.... Tax cuts for the wealthiest only
creates more burden on the middle class.


If Joe Middle class is taxed at 23%.
If John Rich is taxed at 28%.
If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that

direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?


For starters, the numbers are artifical.

As usual fat zepp has no idea of what he is talking about.
Go eat another big mac zepp.


Many people are cunfused about
job creation. We hear how tax cuts for the weathiest will help create

jobs.

They do because many who pay that top margin tax (rich) may not be what

one

would consider rich but an "S" busness owner who's income is directly

tied

to the small busness they run. By cutting there tax rate they as a small
busness owner may reinvest that money in there busness either in the form

of

capital equiptment in adding personel.

Jobs are created by the middle class buying products.


True and the reason why when tax cuts are given across the spectrum
(Rich-Poor) the economy improves. Any tax cut given to any group, as long

as

its not accompanied by a major tax increase to another group will be
translated to the economy.

So middle class tax
cuts help the rich, the middle class and the poor. Tax cuts for the
wealthiest help them, but no one else.


Not true unless one offsets the tax cut of one, with an increase in tax

on

another.
Aside from stuffing money in a mattress name me one activity or action in
handeling money that does not directly benifit economic growth for

others?

It's weird how we can clearly see how the middle class tax cuts can and

does

interpert into economic growth and job creation yet cannot seem to apply
that same principal to the rich. Additionally totaly ignoring the simple
fact that many of the so called rich are "s" busness owners who's actual
take home income may only translated to a middle class standing.

bill

"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats

and

Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative.

It

is

designed to create class division and envy and cause the working

class

to

question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However,

this

focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar

amounts

received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is

progress

of

the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a

particular

rich person's salary might be.




-
"And I deeply resent the destruction of federalism represented by Hillary

Clinton's willingness to go into a state she doesn't even live in and
pretend to represent people there. So I certainly wouldn't imitate it."

Alan Keyes (R-Hypocrite) on Fox News, "Special Report with Brit Hume,"

March 17, 2000


"Pre-emptive war was invented by Adolf Hitler. To be perfectly honest,
I wouldn't take anyone who came up with such a thing seriously".

Dwight Eisenhower (legitimately elected President), 1953


Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays

.

User: "William Lenz"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 15 Aug 2004 04:57:53 PM
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:v36vh09vj45dso64nbmmeodqbcklerl7lf@4ax.com...

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:15:24 GMT, "William Lenz"
<billlenz@earthlink.net> wrote:


"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message
news:10htjgj26cpj638@corp.supernews.com...

Middle cut tax cuts help everyone.... Tax cuts for the wealthiest only
creates more burden on the middle class.


If Joe Middle class is taxed at 23%.
If John Rich is taxed at 28%.
If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that

direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?


For starters, the numbers are artifical.

No, your bringing up a differant issue in the tax code.

John Rich is seeing his cap gains reduced by 50%. That's most of his
taxable income.

So is Joe Middle the only differance is in the amounts those returns total
to.

Joe Middle pays 7.5% FICA. So does John Rich, but only on the first
20% of his income. That doesn't get cut.

Not only is Joe Middle seeing a bigger gouge into his living income
(he still pays the same for food as John Rich), but he's actually
paying a higher percentage in taxes.

And yet still the top 5% pay the largest slice of the tax pie.
Its under the headding if John Rich pays 80% of all taxes collected by the
treasury, and Joe Middle pay some 18%, then what relevance does the actual
percentage of payment make? (numbers are just close guesses) As long as Joe
Middle, and John Rich both are taxed at a acceptable rate.
Why would I want to increase taxes on anyone if with good fiscal
resoponsability I'm making enough to function. Oh and yes I'm aware of debt,
that's where the good fiscal responsability comes in at.

In the meantime, John Rich takes the money he saved and uses it to
donate to the candidates he wants to run for offices, and sets up the
rules so Joe Middle can't run effectively and doesn't get any real
choice in who to vote for.

Not really a relevant arguement, it is the way of things. In the end I'm not
Joe Middle, I'd say I'm Jody Poor, but I do have what I believe to be a real
choice in who to vote for, and its the same man who cut my taxes.
bill


Many people are cunfused about
job creation. We hear how tax cuts for the weathiest will help create

jobs.

They do because many who pay that top margin tax (rich) may not be what

one

would consider rich but an "S" busness owner who's income is directly

tied

to the small busness they run. By cutting there tax rate they as a small
busness owner may reinvest that money in there busness either in the form

of

capital equiptment in adding personel.

Jobs are created by the middle class buying products.


True and the reason why when tax cuts are given across the spectrum
(Rich-Poor) the economy improves. Any tax cut given to any group, as long

as

its not accompanied by a major tax increase to another group will be
translated to the economy.

So middle class tax
cuts help the rich, the middle class and the poor. Tax cuts for the
wealthiest help them, but no one else.


Not true unless one offsets the tax cut of one, with an increase in tax

on

another.
Aside from stuffing money in a mattress name me one activity or action in
handeling money that does not directly benifit economic growth for

others?

It's weird how we can clearly see how the middle class tax cuts can and

does

interpert into economic growth and job creation yet cannot seem to apply
that same principal to the rich. Additionally totaly ignoring the simple
fact that many of the so called rich are "s" busness owners who's actual
take home income may only translated to a middle class standing.

bill

"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats

and

Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative.

It

is

designed to create class division and envy and cause the working

class

to

question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However,

this

focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar

amounts

received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is

progress

of

the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a

particular

rich person's salary might be.

.

User: "Mark"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 15 Aug 2004 10:37:08 PM
If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?

Simple.. If taxes are cut and spending is not also cut (as the republicans
have done for the past few years) a certain amount of money is needed to
fund programs, security and govt expenses... So this leads to increase in
taxes other then income taxes to cover the bills. Since the middle class is
larger and spends the most money in total, they are burdened with more
taxes. We are not only talking about income taxes, but a cut in the tax
rates for the richest will elad to higher taxes for the middle class. If
taxes are cut for the middle class, they will spend the money saved and the
wealthiest will end up getting the money anyway. Then as the economy grows
because of the middle class spending the rich will get richer and the middle
class survives. The wealthy ened up with the money anyway.. why not allow
the middle class to grow the economy instead of HOPING the wealthy will
invest. I have noticed that many CEOs have received large salary increases
after the tax cuts.. How does this help the economy?
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:v36vh09vj45dso64nbmmeodqbcklerl7lf@4ax.com...

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:15:24 GMT, "William Lenz"
<billlenz@earthlink.net> wrote:


"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message
news:10htjgj26cpj638@corp.supernews.com...

Middle cut tax cuts help everyone.... Tax cuts for the wealthiest only
creates more burden on the middle class.


If Joe Middle class is taxed at 23%.
If John Rich is taxed at 28%.
If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that

direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?


For starters, the numbers are artifical.

John Rich is seeing his cap gains reduced by 50%. That's most of his
taxable income.

Joe Middle pays 7.5% FICA. So does John Rich, but only on the first
20% of his income. That doesn't get cut.

Not only is Joe Middle seeing a bigger gouge into his living income
(he still pays the same for food as John Rich), but he's actually
paying a higher percentage in taxes.

In the meantime, John Rich takes the money he saved and uses it to
donate to the candidates he wants to run for offices, and sets up the
rules so Joe Middle can't run effectively and doesn't get any real
choice in who to vote for.



Many people are cunfused about
job creation. We hear how tax cuts for the weathiest will help create

jobs.

They do because many who pay that top margin tax (rich) may not be what

one

would consider rich but an "S" busness owner who's income is directly

tied

to the small busness they run. By cutting there tax rate they as a small
busness owner may reinvest that money in there busness either in the form

of

capital equiptment in adding personel.

Jobs are created by the middle class buying products.


True and the reason why when tax cuts are given across the spectrum
(Rich-Poor) the economy improves. Any tax cut given to any group, as long

as

its not accompanied by a major tax increase to another group will be
translated to the economy.

So middle class tax
cuts help the rich, the middle class and the poor. Tax cuts for the
wealthiest help them, but no one else.


Not true unless one offsets the tax cut of one, with an increase in tax

on

another.
Aside from stuffing money in a mattress name me one activity or action in
handeling money that does not directly benifit economic growth for

others?

It's weird how we can clearly see how the middle class tax cuts can and

does

interpert into economic growth and job creation yet cannot seem to apply
that same principal to the rich. Additionally totaly ignoring the simple
fact that many of the so called rich are "s" busness owners who's actual
take home income may only translated to a middle class standing.

bill

"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats

and

Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative.

It

is

designed to create class division and envy and cause the working

class

to

question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However,

this

focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar

amounts

received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is

progress

of

the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a

particular

rich person's salary might be.




-
"And I deeply resent the destruction of federalism represented by Hillary

Clinton's willingness to go into a state she doesn't even live in and
pretend to represent people there. So I certainly wouldn't imitate it."

Alan Keyes (R-Hypocrite) on Fox News, "Special Report with Brit Hume,"

March 17, 2000


"Pre-emptive war was invented by Adolf Hitler. To be perfectly honest,
I wouldn't take anyone who came up with such a thing seriously".

Dwight Eisenhower (legitimately elected President), 1953


Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays

.
User: "bill lenz"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 16 Aug 2004 08:25:26 AM
"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message news:<10i0avd9n9svp8a@corp.supernews.com>...

If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?


Simple.. If taxes are cut and spending is not also cut (as the republicans
have done for the past few years) a certain amount of money is needed to
fund programs, security and govt expenses...

As it was shown in the Reagen years, and as we see occuring today an
increase in the money flowing into the treasury. So everything we were
spending money on we can continue to spend money on while alowing for
limited growth. The problem is when you increase spending or benifits
beyond your limits. The money going into the treasury may have
increased though the tax cuts but we are spending more as well.

So this leads to increase in
taxes other then income taxes to cover the bills.

As it turns out and as history seems to dictate to us the more money
the federal goverment seems to get the more they love to spend it.
Although I disagree tax cuts does not lead to increased taxes in other
areas, poor fiscal responsability leads to the need for the federal
goverment to find differant ways of taking our money.

Since the middle class is
larger and spends the most money in total, they are burdened with more
taxes.

Justification for tax cuts across all groups and not limited to one.

We are not only talking about income taxes, but a cut in the tax
rates for the richest will elad to higher taxes for the middle class.

Heres were I have a problem with this.
We cut taxes and the treasury funds increase, but even if they didn't
and the treasure directly reflected the tax cut amount. We then state
how Goverment does not cut or decrease spending to reflect this
change. Here is the point where we should stop for it is at this point
we see where the blame truly exists. Not on the sholders of the rich
but on the sholders of those who cannot seem to reel in there
spending.

If
taxes are cut for the middle class, they will spend the money saved and the
wealthiest will end up getting the money anyway. Then as the economy grows
because of the middle class spending the rich will get richer and the middle
class survives.

Good analysis for the improtance of middle class tax cuts. Do note I
have not argued that middle class tax cuts are not important in
spuring economic growth. My arguement is cutting taxes across the
board (rich-poor).

The wealthy ened up with the money anyway.. why not allow
the middle class to grow the economy instead of HOPING the wealthy will
invest.

Why not grow the economy have the republicans in congress take some
fiscal responsability (that being there platform), and the Democrats
in congress quit trying to demonize others for there own falings.

I have noticed that many CEOs have received large salary increases
after the tax cuts.. How does this help the economy?

Again I will ask aside from stuffing the money in a matress or getting
it stolen from you in taxes is there anything you can do with that
money that doesn't help the economy? Besides I'd rather have there
money getting paid directly to them than the stock option we saw, and
saw the results of.
bill


"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:v36vh09vj45dso64nbmmeodqbcklerl7lf@4ax.com...

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:15:24 GMT, "William Lenz"
<billlenz@earthlink.net> wrote:


"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message
news:10htjgj26cpj638@corp.supernews.com...

Middle cut tax cuts help everyone.... Tax cuts for the wealthiest only
creates more burden on the middle class.


If Joe Middle class is taxed at 23%.
If John Rich is taxed at 28%.
If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that

direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?


For starters, the numbers are artifical.

John Rich is seeing his cap gains reduced by 50%. That's most of his
taxable income.

Joe Middle pays 7.5% FICA. So does John Rich, but only on the first
20% of his income. That doesn't get cut.

Not only is Joe Middle seeing a bigger gouge into his living income
(he still pays the same for food as John Rich), but he's actually
paying a higher percentage in taxes.

In the meantime, John Rich takes the money he saved and uses it to
donate to the candidates he wants to run for offices, and sets up the
rules so Joe Middle can't run effectively and doesn't get any real
choice in who to vote for.



Many people are cunfused about
job creation. We hear how tax cuts for the weathiest will help create

jobs.

They do because many who pay that top margin tax (rich) may not be what

one

would consider rich but an "S" busness owner who's income is directly

tied

to the small busness they run. By cutting there tax rate they as a small
busness owner may reinvest that money in there busness either in the form

of

capital equiptment in adding personel.

Jobs are created by the middle class buying products.


True and the reason why when tax cuts are given across the spectrum
(Rich-Poor) the economy improves. Any tax cut given to any group, as long

as

its not accompanied by a major tax increase to another group will be
translated to the economy.

So middle class tax
cuts help the rich, the middle class and the poor. Tax cuts for the
wealthiest help them, but no one else.


Not true unless one offsets the tax cut of one, with an increase in tax

on

another.
Aside from stuffing money in a mattress name me one activity or action in
handeling money that does not directly benifit economic growth for

others?

It's weird how we can clearly see how the middle class tax cuts can and

does

interpert into economic growth and job creation yet cannot seem to apply
that same principal to the rich. Additionally totaly ignoring the simple
fact that many of the so called rich are "s" busness owners who's actual
take home income may only translated to a middle class standing.

bill

"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats

and

Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative.

It
is

designed to create class division and envy and cause the working

class
to

question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However,

this

focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar

amounts

received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is

progress
of

the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a

particular

rich person's salary might be.




-
"And I deeply resent the destruction of federalism represented by Hillary

Clinton's willingness to go into a state she doesn't even live in and
pretend to represent people there. So I certainly wouldn't imitate it."

Alan Keyes (R-Hypocrite) on Fox News, "Special Report with Brit Hume,"

March 17, 2000


"Pre-emptive war was invented by Adolf Hitler. To be perfectly honest,
I wouldn't take anyone who came up with such a thing seriously".

Dwight Eisenhower (legitimately elected President), 1953


Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays

.
User: "zepp"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 16 Aug 2004 09:09:02 AM
On 16 Aug 2004 06:25:26 -0700,
(bill lenz) wrote:

"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message news:<10i0avd9n9svp8a@corp.supernews.com>...

If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?


Simple.. If taxes are cut and spending is not also cut (as the republicans
have done for the past few years) a certain amount of money is needed to
fund programs, security and govt expenses...


As it was shown in the Reagen years, and as we see occuring today an
increase in the money flowing into the treasury.

Is that why we have record deficits and falling revenues?
So everything we were

spending money on we can continue to spend money on while alowing for
limited growth.

As long as we don't mind spending it on interest payments to finance
the debt.
The problem is when you increase spending or benifits

beyond your limits. The money going into the treasury may have
increased though the tax cuts but we are spending more as well.

So this leads to increase in
taxes other then income taxes to cover the bills.


As it turns out and as history seems to dictate to us the more money
the federal goverment seems to get the more they love to spend it.
Although I disagree tax cuts does not lead to increased taxes in other
areas, poor fiscal responsability leads to the need for the federal
goverment to find differant ways of taking our money.

Since the middle class is
larger and spends the most money in total, they are burdened with more
taxes.


Justification for tax cuts across all groups and not limited to one.

We are not only talking about income taxes, but a cut in the tax
rates for the richest will elad to higher taxes for the middle class.


Heres were I have a problem with this.
We cut taxes and the treasury funds increase, but even if they didn't
and the treasure directly reflected the tax cut amount. We then state
how Goverment does not cut or decrease spending to reflect this
change. Here is the point where we should stop for it is at this point
we see where the blame truly exists. Not on the sholders of the rich
but on the sholders of those who cannot seem to reel in there
spending.

If
taxes are cut for the middle class, they will spend the money saved and the
wealthiest will end up getting the money anyway. Then as the economy grows
because of the middle class spending the rich will get richer and the middle
class survives.


Good analysis for the improtance of middle class tax cuts. Do note I
have not argued that middle class tax cuts are not important in
spuring economic growth. My arguement is cutting taxes across the
board (rich-poor).

The wealthy ened up with the money anyway.. why not allow
the middle class to grow the economy instead of HOPING the wealthy will
invest.


Why not grow the economy have the republicans in congress take some
fiscal responsability (that being there platform), and the Democrats
in congress quit trying to demonize others for there own falings.

I have noticed that many CEOs have received large salary increases
after the tax cuts.. How does this help the economy?


Again I will ask aside from stuffing the money in a matress or getting
it stolen from you in taxes is there anything you can do with that
money that doesn't help the economy? Besides I'd rather have there
money getting paid directly to them than the stock option we saw, and
saw the results of.

bill



"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:v36vh09vj45dso64nbmmeodqbcklerl7lf@4ax.com...

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:15:24 GMT, "William Lenz"
<billlenz@earthlink.net> wrote:


"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message
news:10htjgj26cpj638@corp.supernews.com...

Middle cut tax cuts help everyone.... Tax cuts for the wealthiest only
creates more burden on the middle class.


If Joe Middle class is taxed at 23%.
If John Rich is taxed at 28%.
If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that

direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?


For starters, the numbers are artifical.

John Rich is seeing his cap gains reduced by 50%. That's most of his
taxable income.

Joe Middle pays 7.5% FICA. So does John Rich, but only on the first
20% of his income. That doesn't get cut.

Not only is Joe Middle seeing a bigger gouge into his living income
(he still pays the same for food as John Rich), but he's actually
paying a higher percentage in taxes.

In the meantime, John Rich takes the money he saved and uses it to
donate to the candidates he wants to run for offices, and sets up the
rules so Joe Middle can't run effectively and doesn't get any real
choice in who to vote for.



Many people are cunfused about
job creation. We hear how tax cuts for the weathiest will help create

jobs.

They do because many who pay that top margin tax (rich) may not be what

one

would consider rich but an "S" busness owner who's income is directly

tied

to the small busness they run. By cutting there tax rate they as a small
busness owner may reinvest that money in there busness either in the form

of

capital equiptment in adding personel.

Jobs are created by the middle class buying products.


True and the reason why when tax cuts are given across the spectrum
(Rich-Poor) the economy improves. Any tax cut given to any group, as long

as

its not accompanied by a major tax increase to another group will be
translated to the economy.

So middle class tax
cuts help the rich, the middle class and the poor. Tax cuts for the
wealthiest help them, but no one else.


Not true unless one offsets the tax cut of one, with an increase in tax

on

another.
Aside from stuffing money in a mattress name me one activity or action in
handeling money that does not directly benifit economic growth for

others?

It's weird how we can clearly see how the middle class tax cuts can and

does

interpert into economic growth and job creation yet cannot seem to apply
that same principal to the rich. Additionally totaly ignoring the simple
fact that many of the so called rich are "s" busness owners who's actual
take home income may only translated to a middle class standing.

bill

"Dana" <#$%@%$#.com> wrote in message
news:88cbd67ab94fed6abe1028a54b0c4652@news.meganetnews.com...

http://www.rejectliberalism.com/articles/taxcutschris7-27-04.htm
WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE
By

7-27-04
DISCUSS
"Tax cuts for the rich." That is the age-old cry of the Democrats

and

Liberals. The connotation of that phrase is supposed to be negative.

It
is

designed to create class division and envy and cause the working

class
to

question the intentions of Republicans who advocate cuts. However,

this

focus on the discrepancies between tax cut rates and actual dollar

amounts

received is a red herring, as the more important indicator is

progress
of

the lower economic classes, not making judgments on how obscene a

particular

rich person's salary might be.




-
"And I deeply resent the destruction of federalism represented by Hillary

Clinton's willingness to go into a state she doesn't even live in and
pretend to represent people there. So I certainly wouldn't imitate it."

Alan Keyes (R-Hypocrite) on Fox News, "Special Report with Brit Hume,"

March 17, 2000


"Pre-emptive war was invented by Adolf Hitler. To be perfectly honest,
I wouldn't take anyone who came up with such a thing seriously".

Dwight Eisenhower (legitimately elected President), 1953


Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
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-
"And I deeply resent the destruction of federalism represented by Hillary Clinton’s willingness to go into a state she doesn’t even live in and pretend to represent people there. So I certainly wouldn’t imitate it.”
Alan Keyes (R-Hypocrite) on Fox News, "Special Report with Brit Hume," March 17, 2000
"Pre-emptive war was invented by Adolf Hitler. To be perfectly honest,
I wouldn't take anyone who came up with such a thing seriously".
Dwight Eisenhower (legitimately elected President), 1953

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
.
User: "bill lenz"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 16 Aug 2004 02:09:00 PM
zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<8uf1i0lvhtb4hsd5gm6bg92tpveptg4jof@4ax.com>...

On 16 Aug 2004 06:25:26 -0700,

(bill lenz) wrote:

"Mark" <gege@versaillespc.com> wrote in message news:<10i0avd9n9svp8a@corp.supernews.com>...

If we cut both Joe middle and John Rich's taxes by 2% how does that direct

act translate as a greater burden on Joe Middle?


Simple.. If taxes are cut and spending is not also cut (as the republicans
have done for the past few years) a certain amount of money is needed to
fund programs, security and govt expenses...


As it was shown in the Reagen years, and as we see occuring today an
increase in the money flowing into the treasury.


Is that why we have record deficits and falling revenues?

So everything we were

spending money on we can continue to spend money on while alowing for
limited growth.


As long as we don't mind spending it on interest payments to finance
the debt.

First don't get confused between national public debt and the debt the
federal goverment is running on.
Additionally the fault should be placed in its proper place. Which is
not on the tax cuts but those who can't seem to live within a budget.
One could make reasonable "excuses" as to why congress overspent
itself but in the end congress holds the purse strings. The policy of
tax cuts works, the problem is the policy of spending within ones
means seems to be lost among those in congress.
Bill
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 16 Aug 2004 03:53:44 PM
(bill lenz) wrote:

Additionally the fault should be placed in its proper place. Which is
not on the tax cuts but those who can't seem to live within a budget.

The president submits a budget. He has not submitted a budget that
lives within its means.

One could make reasonable "excuses" as to why congress overspent
itself but in the end congress holds the purse strings. The policy of
tax cuts works,

Apparently not.

the problem is the policy of spending within ones
means seems to be lost among those in congress.

The Republican Congress.
Also the President who doesn't propose a budget which spends within
our means.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "bill lenz"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 17 Aug 2004 11:30:33 AM
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:<fj72i0lrh1emlbm7g42e1bj1qc2hhuu80f@4ax.com>...

billl@bliley.com (bill lenz) wrote:

Additionally the fault should be placed in its proper place. Which is
not on the tax cuts but those who can't seem to live within a budget.


The president submits a budget. He has not submitted a budget that
lives within its means.

Think of it like a starting point or wish list it doesn't have to be
on target.
Congress is suppose to review the spending perposed and come up with
numbers that should closely what is avalible to spend vs what they
will spend.

One could make reasonable "excuses" as to why congress overspent
itself but in the end congress holds the purse strings. The policy of
tax cuts works,


Apparently not.

Sure it does you posted some numbers in your other post, follow the
link you gave and look at the years 1980 to 1988 they show about a 50%
increase in treasury collection. These were some of the biggest tax
cuts to the rich years ever. You'll also note the Democrat run
congress out spent itself.

the problem is the policy of spending within ones
means seems to be lost among those in congress.


The Republican Congress.

Also the President who doesn't propose a budget which spends within
our means.

Can't really defend that which cannot be defended.
If I have a problem with this administration and congress its there
spending habbits. I wish Newt and his team was still running the
House, they were able to hold off all of Clintons spending and balance
the budget.
Bill


lojbab

.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 17 Aug 2004 02:17:04 PM
(bill lenz) wrote:

Bob LeChevalier <

> wrote in message news:<fj72i0lrh1emlbm7g42e1bj1qc2hhuu80f@4ax.com>...

(bill lenz) wrote:

Additionally the fault should be placed in its proper place. Which is
not on the tax cuts but those who can't seem to live within a budget.


The president submits a budget. He has not submitted a budget that
lives within its means.


Think of it like a starting point or wish list it doesn't have to be
on target.

I think that you will find that the budget laws require more than wild
guesses and wish lists from the President. Furthermore the President
has limited line item veto and impoundment authority
http://www.house.gov/rules/96-912.htm

Congress is suppose to review the spending perposed and come up with
numbers that should closely what is avalible to spend vs what they
will spend.

The trouble is that Congress has no more idea than the president (and
probably less) as to how much there will be to spend. After all, it
is the executive branch that collects the revenues.

One could make reasonable "excuses" as to why congress overspent
itself but in the end congress holds the purse strings. The policy of
tax cuts works,


Apparently not.


Sure it does you posted some numbers in your other post, follow the
link you gave and look at the years 1980 to 1988 they show about a 50%
increase in treasury collection.

I'm more interested in 2000 to 2004, since the issue is the current
president's tax cuts.
But it turns out that the inflation adjustment from 1980 to 1988 was
56.51%, so a 50% increase would have been a real decrease. Luckily
for you it was more than 50%
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy05/sheets/hist01z3.xls
However, there was no real increase in revenues from 1980 to 1984 (or
from 1981 to 1985). There then was a mild increase for Reagan's
second term (some 20% after inflation over 4 years), an amount much
less than the deficit each previous year. So it is at least equally
likely that the increase in revenues was due to the massive stimulus
of the deficit spending, as it was due to tax cuts a few years
previously. Indeed, IIRC, the Reagan tax cuts were partially rolled
back before revenues started to increase.

These were some of the biggest tax cuts to the rich years ever.

No. Bush beat Reagan by a mile in the tax cutting department. From
2000 to 2004, Federal revenues declined from 20.9% of GDP to 15.7% of
GDP. Reagan, by comparison, cut revenues from 19.6% to 17.3% from
1981 to 1984, less than half the amount that Bush cut.

You'll also note the Democrat run congress out spent itself.

Reagan signed the appropriations, and he submitted an unbalanced
budget to the Congress.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "bill lenz"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 18 Aug 2004 02:22:10 PM
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:<igk4i05be5u39n7kv0s176igtdruv4v3s5@4ax.com>...

billl@bliley.com (bill lenz) wrote:

Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:<fj72i0lrh1emlbm7g42e1bj1qc2hhuu80f@4ax.com>...

billl@bliley.com (bill lenz) wrote:

Additionally the fault should be placed in its proper place. Which is
not on the tax cuts but those who can't seem to live within a budget.


The president submits a budget. He has not submitted a budget that
lives within its means.


Think of it like a starting point or wish list it doesn't have to be
on target.


I think that you will find that the budget laws require more than wild
guesses and wish lists from the President. Furthermore the President
has limited line item veto and impoundment authority
http://www.house.gov/rules/96-912.htm

From those rules we get:
The President's budget is only a request to Congress; Congress is not
required to adopt his recommendations. Nevertheless, the power to
formulate and submit the budget is a vital tool in the President's
direction of the executive branch and of national policy. The
President's proposals often guide congressional revenue and spending
decisions, though the extent of the influence varies from year to year
and depends more on political and fiscal conditions than on the legal
status of the budget.
Additionally later we have:
An appropriations act is a law passed by Congress that provides
federal agencies legal authority to incur obligations and the Treasury
Department authority to make payments for designated purposes. The
power of appropriation derives from the Constitution which provides
that "No money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in consequence of
appropriations made by law." The power to appropriate is exclusively a
legislative power; it functions as a limitation on the executive
branch. An agency may not spend more than the amount appropriated to
it, and it may use available funds only for the purposes and according
to the conditions provided by Congress.

Congress is suppose to review the spending perposed and come up with
numbers that should closely what is avalible to spend vs what they
will spend.


The trouble is that Congress has no more idea than the president (and
probably less) as to how much there will be to spend. After all, it
is the executive branch that collects the revenues.

If they don't then there not doing there job.

Out of time
Bill
.


User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: WHY TAX CUTS HELP EVERYONE 17 Aug 2004 03:13:38 PM
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:30:33 -0500, bill lenz wrote
(in article <465d4c4f.0408170704.3acd4944@posting.google.com>):

Sure it does you posted some numbers in your other post, follow the
link you gave and look at the years 1980 to 1988 they show about a 50%
increase in treasury collection. These were some of the biggest tax
cuts to the rich years ever. You'll also note the Democrat run
congress out spent itself.

< http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm>
from:
--------------------------------------------------------
            George Bush Sr. meekly followed in Reagan¹s shadow, by
increasing the debt on average a mere 11.8% a year during his four
years as President.  His last year in office he worked with Democrats
to raise taxes to help reduce the massive yearly increases in debt, it
was too little too late and didn¹t make much difference in the overall
trend, but the Conservatives threw him out of office for it any way.
 
            President Clinton inherited the deficit spending problem
and did more than just talk about it, he fixed it.  In his first two
years and with a cooperative Congress he set the course for the best
economy this country has ever experienced.  Then he worked with what
could be characterized as the most hostel Congress in history for the
last six years of his administration, yet he still managed to get the
growth of the debt down to 0.32% (one third of one percent) his last
year in office.  Had his policies been followed for one more year the
debt would have been reduced for the first time since the first year of
the Kennedy administration. 
 
The current President Bush came into office and quickly turned all that
progress around.  He immediately gave yet another massive tax cut based
on a failed economic policy.  The last year Clinton was in office the
nation borrowed an additional 18 billion dollars, the first year Bush
Jr. was in office he had to borrow 270 billion.  The tax cut that
caused this borrowing was supposed to stimulate the economy, but two
years later Bush had to push through yet another tax cut.  The second
tax cut was needed because it was clear that the first one did not
work.  Economic history tells us the second one won¹t work either.  As
a result of all this tax cutting and no cutting in what he is spending
Bush will set a record in 2003 for the biggest single yearly increase
in debt in the nation¹s history, by his own estimations he will break
this record again in 2004.  The debt is now increasing at the rate of
500 billion dollars a year[2].  Even Reagan never increased the debt
that much in a single year; Reagan¹s biggest increase was only 282
billion, half of Bush¹s outrageous spending.  As a result of the fact
that the debt was already pretty high when Bush Jr. entered office his
annual rate of increase is only averaging 7% per year, so far.
--------------------------------------------------------
Lots of different kinds of arithmetic, wouldntyousay./gray/
.