| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"dpr why" |
| Date: |
31 Jan 2004 09:35:00 PM |
| Object: |
Why The Unions Will Die |
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
One friend we recently caught up with was upbeat when we spoke with him. He'
d been working his way through college to earn an IT degree for nine years
and had finally graduated. He'd started working at a unionized grocery store
after starting school. He was still working there after graduation. Why?
After a decade at his position, he made more as an assistant manager at the
store than he could make as a computer wiz in today's deflated market. We
have friends with technical and engineering degrees who are underemployed.
The thought that one could make more money doing what many of us did in high
school made me start thinking about the job market as a whole.
Programming can be done by anyone, anywhere, any time as long as the work is
done on time. India is doing just fine writing our software. Mexico is
taking Spanish language call center jobs. China has an infinite - or,
rather, billion-ite - edge when it comes to cheap manufacturing. Circuit
design and test is now moving there to take advantage of their exploding
college educated population.
It is the communications boom that is allowing the high skill, high level of
education jobs move as well. Hence, our friend makes more money as an
assistant manager than he could as an entry level IT guy; the supply of
those with the skills is greater than the demand. The "blue collar"
manufacturing work has left the building. The "white collar" jobs the union
hoped to unionize under a Democratic regime are leaving before the unions
can even get a foothold in those regions.
I was in the neighborhood Albertson's recently when I saw something strange.
They'd taking four of the twelve checkout lines. Four gleaming self-checkout
lanes now stood. One clerk who made sure no one walked out without ringing
up their purchases supervised them. And with a faster check out rate than
the clerks could manage a week before. Here was the marketplace and
Darwinism in action. Fewer clerks will be needed in the store. Lower demand
for clerks will mean lower wages the union can demand. After all, computers
can replace them now.
Technology allows jobs to move to cheaper regions. Technology allows us to
replace overpriced union labor with a cheaper mechanical option. The first
effect left our college-educated friend in an overpaid union job rather than
an underpaid technical job. The latter will eventually erode the wage rate
of his current position.
Without unions demanding exorbitant pay rates, more low skill jobs would
stay in this country. Without unions demanding excess regulation, businesses
would have more money to spend on building up business - and create jobs in
the process. Without unions driving up labor costs for teachers, our
property taxes would be lower, giving everyone - employers to employees -
would have more money to spend locally. Without civil service unions,
everyone - employers to employees - would have more money to spend locally
because they wouldn't have so much taken away in taxes. Without unions, the
employment options for everyone would be much brighter.
We can't abolish the unions. Even if there is a grand epiphany and not one
more person joined a union ever again, the unions would not vanish
overnight. And even if they did, it wouldn't get my recently downsized
husband a new job. Maybe the grocery store needs maintenance guys for the
new scanners. You can't export that work . yet.
--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the state
at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.
.
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| User: "Lisa R." |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 10:01:32 AM |
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"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it. Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Lisa
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| User: "ShrikeBack" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 03:52:51 PM |
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(Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402010801.5b30c9b1@posting.google.com>...
"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it.
Wouldn't that be a good thing, from the perspective of the Left.
"Americans consume too much!" they have been telling us.
Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Non-union workers maybe?
.
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| User: "Lisa R." |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 09:21:05 PM |
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(ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402011352.7dfea068@posting.google.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402010801.5b30c9b1@posting.google.com>...
"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it.
Wouldn't that be a good thing, from the perspective of the Left.
"Americans consume too much!" they have been telling us.
The Left may not mind, in the long run. But the Right will, after
free trade winds down, and deflation sets in.
Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Non-union workers maybe?
They'll consume about the same way that Mexicans do. Do you think
that kind of consumption can power the world economy?
Dope.
Lisa
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| User: "ShrikeBack" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
02 Feb 2004 01:53:08 AM |
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(Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402011921.10a5dde3@posting.google.com>...
hewpiedawg@hotmail.com (ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402011352.7dfea068@posting.google.com>...
(Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402010801.5b30c9b1@posting.google.com>...
"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it.
Wouldn't that be a good thing, from the perspective of the Left.
"Americans consume too much!" they have been telling us.
The Left may not mind, in the long run. But the Right will, after
free trade winds down, and deflation sets in.
Funny. Unions have already shrunk enough that this should have already
happened. It hasn't.
Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Non-union workers maybe?
They'll consume about the same way that Mexicans do.
You're going to have to 'splain why Nafta didn't cause that in the
nineties. Was it really the unions that saved us from this fate?
Do you think
that kind of consumption can power the world economy?
So, you're telling me that the ideal of the Left: an America that
consumes as much as any developing nation isn't good for the world?
Dope.
It's what's for dinner.
.
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| User: "Lisa R." |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
02 Feb 2004 09:06:44 AM |
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(ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402012353.33e85ef0@posting.google.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402011921.10a5dde3@posting.google.com>...
(ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402011352.7dfea068@posting.google.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402010801.5b30c9b1@posting.google.com>...
"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it.
Wouldn't that be a good thing, from the perspective of the Left.
"Americans consume too much!" they have been telling us.
The Left may not mind, in the long run. But the Right will, after
free trade winds down, and deflation sets in.
Funny. Unions have already shrunk enough that this should have already
happened. It hasn't.
We do have a good number of highly paid people. But a lot of their
jobs are going abroad, too.
Almost anything an American can do, others can do; and more cheaply
besides. Why hire an American radiologist when an Indian can do the
work for one-tenth the price?
Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Non-union workers maybe?
They'll consume about the same way that Mexicans do.
You're going to have to 'splain why Nafta didn't cause that in the
nineties. Was it really the unions that saved us from this fate?
No. You can thank credit cards. And of course, we still earn much
more on average than they do. But if our pockets are deep, they are
not bottomless.
Some day, the bottom will drop out. So who will take our place? The
Japanese? The Europeans? Neither believes in free trade and
consumption the way we do.
Someone has to buy the world's surplus goods. Otherwise, the world
economy plummets, with catastrophic results.
Do you think
that kind of consumption can power the world economy?
So, you're telling me that the ideal of the Left: an America that
consumes as much as any developing nation isn't good for the world?
It means a lot of idle factories, with much attendant civic unrest.
They can't all just go back to the farm. Some of those farms are long
gone.
Dope.
It's what's for dinner.
YOUR dinner, at any rate.
Lisa
.
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| User: "ShrikeBack" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
02 Feb 2004 10:31:22 PM |
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(Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402020706.76c47c1f@posting.google.com>...
hewpiedawg@hotmail.com (ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402012353.33e85ef0@posting.google.com>...
(Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402011921.10a5dde3@posting.google.com>...
hewpiedawg@hotmail.com (ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402011352.7dfea068@posting.google.com>...
(Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402010801.5b30c9b1@posting.google.com>...
"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it.
Wouldn't that be a good thing, from the perspective of the Left.
"Americans consume too much!" they have been telling us.
The Left may not mind, in the long run. But the Right will, after
free trade winds down, and deflation sets in.
Funny. Unions have already shrunk enough that this should have already
happened. It hasn't.
We do have a good number of highly paid people. But a lot of their
jobs are going abroad, too.
You write as though jobs are a zero sum game.
Almost anything an American can do, others can do; and more cheaply
besides. Why hire an American radiologist when an Indian can do the
work for one-tenth the price?
Somebody has to actually take the X-ray.
Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Non-union workers maybe?
They'll consume about the same way that Mexicans do.
You're going to have to 'splain why Nafta didn't cause that in the
nineties. Was it really the unions that saved us from this fate?
No. You can thank credit cards. And of course, we still earn much
more on average than they do. But if our pockets are deep, they are
not bottomless.
Actually, our per capita GDP has grown considerably over the last
twenty years.
Some day, the bottom will drop out. So who will take our place? The
Japanese? The Europeans? Neither believes in free trade and
consumption the way we do.
What you seem to be saying is that if we continue to support the world
economy by consuming foreign goods and services, we will no longer be
able to support the world economy by consuming foreign goods and services.
Someone has to buy the world's surplus goods. Otherwise, the world
economy plummets, with catastrophic results.
If somebody has to buy the world's surplus goods, why are you complaining
that the US is buying the world's surplus goods and labor?
Do you think
that kind of consumption can power the world economy?
So, you're telling me that the ideal of the Left: an America that
consumes as much as any developing nation isn't good for the world?
It means a lot of idle factories, with much attendant civic unrest.
They can't all just go back to the farm. Some of those farms are long
gone.
Of course we can't go back to the farm. We also don't really want
to go back to the loom and the typewriter factory.
Dope.
It's what's for dinner.
YOUR dinner, at any rate.
Whereas you are having a heaping helping of opiated hysteria.
.
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| User: "Lisa R." |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
03 Feb 2004 11:12:03 AM |
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(ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402022031.11a7258c@posting.google.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402020706.76c47c1f@posting.google.com>...
(ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402012353.33e85ef0@posting.google.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402011921.10a5dde3@posting.google.com>...
(ShrikeBack) wrote in message news:<59b8bc96.0402011352.7dfea068@posting.google.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402010801.5b30c9b1@posting.google.com>...
"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it.
Wouldn't that be a good thing, from the perspective of the Left.
"Americans consume too much!" they have been telling us.
The Left may not mind, in the long run. But the Right will, after
free trade winds down, and deflation sets in.
Funny. Unions have already shrunk enough that this should have already
happened. It hasn't.
We do have a good number of highly paid people. But a lot of their
jobs are going abroad, too.
You write as though jobs are a zero sum game.
Almost anything an American can do, others can do; and more cheaply
besides. Why hire an American radiologist when an Indian can do the
work for one-tenth the price?
Somebody has to actually take the X-ray.
I didn't say that ALL jobs would be outsourced. Nonetheless, the fact
remains; thanks to the Internet, all sorts of info can be easily
shipped abroad---and also the well-paying jobs that were connected to
it.
Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Non-union workers maybe?
They'll consume about the same way that Mexicans do.
You're going to have to 'splain why Nafta didn't cause that in the
nineties. Was it really the unions that saved us from this fate?
No. You can thank credit cards. And of course, we still earn much
more on average than they do. But if our pockets are deep, they are
not bottomless.
Actually, our per capita GDP has grown considerably over the last
twenty years.
Real income for most Americans hasn't grown much. But the debt sure
has.
Some day, the bottom will drop out. So who will take our place? The
Japanese? The Europeans? Neither believes in free trade and
consumption the way we do.
What you seem to be saying is that if we continue to support the world
economy by consuming foreign goods and services, we will no longer be
able to support the world economy by consuming foreign goods and services.
Do you think our pockets are bottomless?
Someone has to buy the world's surplus goods. Otherwise, the world
economy plummets, with catastrophic results.
If somebody has to buy the world's surplus goods, why are you complaining
that the US is buying the world's surplus goods and labor?
What happens when the US can no longer do so?
Do you think
that kind of consumption can power the world economy?
So, you're telling me that the ideal of the Left: an America that
consumes as much as any developing nation isn't good for the world?
It means a lot of idle factories, with much attendant civic unrest.
They can't all just go back to the farm. Some of those farms are long
gone.
Of course we can't go back to the farm. We also don't really want
to go back to the loom and the typewriter factory.
So what happens when those factories are running at one-third
capacity?
Lisa
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
03 Feb 2004 02:35:44 PM |
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(Lisa R.) wrote:
Almost anything an American can do, others can do; and more cheaply
besides. Why hire an American radiologist when an Indian can do the
work for one-tenth the price?
Somebody has to actually take the X-ray.
I didn't say that ALL jobs would be outsourced. Nonetheless, the fact
remains; thanks to the Internet, all sorts of info can be easily
shipped abroad---and also the well-paying jobs that were connected to
it.
But in fact this isn't being done. Some such jobs are being
outsourced, but the number of such jobs in this country still is
growing, and perhaps faster than this country can produced people
qualified to fill them (the recent recession notwithstanding)
What you seem to be saying is that if we continue to support the world
economy by consuming foreign goods and services, we will no longer be
able to support the world economy by consuming foreign goods and services.
Do you think our pockets are bottomless?
Someone has to buy the world's surplus goods. Otherwise, the world
economy plummets, with catastrophic results.
If somebody has to buy the world's surplus goods, why are you complaining
that the US is buying the world's surplus goods and labor?
What happens when the US can no longer do so?
Long before the US can no longer do so, real wages will drop in this
country, along with prices, which will again make us more competitive
internationally. Indeed, you've said that real wages have been flat
while the GDP has risen steadily, and that flatness is precisely a
matter of our staying internationally competitive.
If the US cab no longer buy surplus goods and labor, the demand will
have dropped with the supply constant, and thus the price will drop.
Then the US and perhaps other countries will be able to buy the lower
priced goods and labor.
The long term equilibrium of course is one of equal pay for equal
levels of skills and work in equivalent support environment worldwide.
The US would likely suffer considerably in standard of living to reach
this equilibrium point. While you and I wouldn't like it, I'm not
sure that this is necessarily a bad thing for the world.
Of course we can't go back to the farm. We also don't really want
to go back to the loom and the typewriter factory.
So what happens when those factories are running at one-third
capacity?
They'll close, switch to making something new, or cut their prices so
that they can again run at capacity.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
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| User: "Lisa R." |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
04 Feb 2004 10:25:21 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:<521020lqfri35o6022jdoeo6llt7i7ks0m@4ax.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote:
Almost anything an American can do, others can do; and more cheaply
besides. Why hire an American radiologist when an Indian can do the
work for one-tenth the price?
Somebody has to actually take the X-ray.
I didn't say that ALL jobs would be outsourced. Nonetheless, the fact
remains; thanks to the Internet, all sorts of info can be easily
shipped abroad---and also the well-paying jobs that were connected to
it.
But in fact this isn't being done. Some such jobs are being
outsourced, but the number of such jobs in this country still is
growing, and perhaps faster than this country can produced people
qualified to fill them (the recent recession notwithstanding)
Actually, the outsourcing is contributing to this recession, which
makes it something other than an ordinary business cycle.
What you seem to be saying is that if we continue to support the world
economy by consuming foreign goods and services, we will no longer be
able to support the world economy by consuming foreign goods and services.
Do you think our pockets are bottomless?
Someone has to buy the world's surplus goods. Otherwise, the world
economy plummets, with catastrophic results.
If somebody has to buy the world's surplus goods, why are you complaining
that the US is buying the world's surplus goods and labor?
What happens when the US can no longer do so?
Long before the US can no longer do so, real wages will drop in this
country, along with prices, which will again make us more competitive
internationally. Indeed, you've said that real wages have been flat
while the GDP has risen steadily, and that flatness is precisely a
matter of our staying internationally competitive.
We're "not" competitive, and never can be competitive with countries
whose minimum wage is measured in cents, not dollars. Even though
most workers' real wages haven't done so well in the last 20 years,
they still can't compete with Mexicans on cost of labor.
And Mexicans can't compete with the Chinese on cost of labor. That's
why the maquiladoras are leaving Mexico and going to China.
And when labor gets too expensive in China, they will leave China and
go to Bangladesh.
That's the way it works. Now tell me, how is an American supposed to
compete with a Bangladeshi making 20 rupees per day?
If the US cab no longer buy surplus goods and labor, the demand will
have dropped with the supply constant, and thus the price will drop.
Then the US and perhaps other countries will be able to buy the lower
priced goods and labor.
And a lot of factories will be idle.
The long term equilibrium of course is one of equal pay for equal
levels of skills and work in equivalent support environment worldwide.
The US would likely suffer considerably in standard of living to reach
this equilibrium point. While you and I wouldn't like it, I'm not
sure that this is necessarily a bad thing for the world.
So who is supposed to buy all those Ford Tauruses and Cadillacs if we
all make 50 cents an hour?
Of course we can't go back to the farm. We also don't really want
to go back to the loom and the typewriter factory.
So what happens when those factories are running at one-third
capacity?
They'll close, switch to making something new, or cut their prices so
that they can again run at capacity.
And they'll lay off lots of already impoverished people. Get ready
for a shitstorm (i.e. increase in religious fundamentalism. In fact,
it's already happening in places like Bangladesh).
Lisa
lojbab
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
04 Feb 2004 11:21:54 AM |
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(Lisa R.) wrote:
Bob LeChevalier < > wrote in message news:<521020lqfri35o6022jdoeo6llt7i7ks0m@4ax.com>...
(Lisa R.) wrote:
But in fact this isn't being done. Some such jobs are being
outsourced, but the number of such jobs in this country still is
growing, and perhaps faster than this country can produced people
qualified to fill them (the recent recession notwithstanding)
Actually, the outsourcing is contributing to this recession, which
makes it something other than an ordinary business cycle.
Nonsense. This is a perfectly ordinary business cycle, and indeed its
severity is in part because it took so long to come about. It used to
be that the business cycle lasted around 7 years. Now they can
stretch it out for a decade or more, and manipulate things around
elections, and the result is when they lose control, things get a bit
worse.
Someone has to buy the world's surplus goods. Otherwise, the world
economy plummets, with catastrophic results.
If somebody has to buy the world's surplus goods, why are you complaining
that the US is buying the world's surplus goods and labor?
What happens when the US can no longer do so?
Long before the US can no longer do so, real wages will drop in this
country, along with prices, which will again make us more competitive
internationally. Indeed, you've said that real wages have been flat
while the GDP has risen steadily, and that flatness is precisely a
matter of our staying internationally competitive.
We're "not" competitive, and never can be competitive with countries
whose minimum wage is measured in cents, not dollars.
Yes we can, when our minimum wage drops to cents, not dollars, or when
theirs rises to dollars, not cents. It is probably inevitable that
things will approach such an equilibrium.
Even though
most workers' real wages haven't done so well in the last 20 years,
they still can't compete with Mexicans on cost of labor.
We have a long way to fall, or Mexicans have a long way to rise. When
parity in living conditions obtains, so to will there be parity in the
job market for those jobs. And vice versa. Prices will also be about
the same in the two countries at that point, as well.
By what right should we expect to live any better than Mexicans doing
the same work that they do?
And Mexicans can't compete with the Chinese on cost of labor. That's
why the maquiladoras are leaving Mexico and going to China.
And when labor gets too expensive in China, they will leave China and
go to Bangladesh.
That's the way it works. Now tell me, how is an American supposed to
compete with a Bangladeshi making 20 rupees per day?
Live like a Bangladeshi, and it wouldn't be hard at all.
If the US cab no longer buy surplus goods and labor, the demand will
have dropped with the supply constant, and thus the price will drop.
Then the US and perhaps other countries will be able to buy the lower
priced goods and labor.
And a lot of factories will be idle.
Perhaps. Or maybe they'll switch to making things that are not
economically made overseas because of shipping costs.
The long term equilibrium of course is one of equal pay for equal
levels of skills and work in equivalent support environment worldwide.
The US would likely suffer considerably in standard of living to reach
this equilibrium point. While you and I wouldn't like it, I'm not
sure that this is necessarily a bad thing for the world.
So who is supposed to buy all those Ford Tauruses and Cadillacs if we
all make 50 cents an hour?
If we all make 50 cents and hour, the price of Fort Tauruses and
Cadillacs will be a couple of percent of the current price.
And they'll lay off lots of already impoverished people.
We have a long way to fall before one can call us "impoverished". The
average American has close to double the caloric intake of an
Ethiopian.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
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| User: "Lisa R." |
|
| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
04 Feb 2004 09:29:53 PM |
|
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Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:<jv9220tc37a3f6loj3r81fu4lcq1qf24g5@4ax.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote:
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:<521020lqfri35o6022jdoeo6llt7i7ks0m@4ax.com>...
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote:
But in fact this isn't being done. Some such jobs are being
outsourced, but the number of such jobs in this country still is
growing, and perhaps faster than this country can produced people
qualified to fill them (the recent recession notwithstanding)
Actually, the outsourcing is contributing to this recession, which
makes it something other than an ordinary business cycle.
Nonsense. This is a perfectly ordinary business cycle
That's not what I hear.
the world
economy plummets, with catastrophic results.
If somebody has to buy the world's surplus goods, why are you complaining
that the US is buying the world's surplus goods and labor?
What happens when the US can no longer do so?
Long before the US can no longer do so, real wages will drop in this
country, along with prices, which will again make us more competitive
internationally. Indeed, you've said that real wages have been flat
while the GDP has risen steadily, and that flatness is precisely a
matter of our staying internationally competitive.
We're "not" competitive, and never can be competitive with countries
whose minimum wage is measured in cents, not dollars.
Yes we can, when our minimum wage drops to cents, not dollars, or when
theirs rises to dollars, not cents. It is probably inevitable that
things will approach such an equilibrium.
Even though
most workers' real wages haven't done so well in the last 20 years,
they still can't compete with Mexicans on cost of labor.
We have a long way to fall, or Mexicans have a long way to rise. When
parity in living conditions obtains, so to will there be parity in the
job market for those jobs. And vice versa. Prices will also be about
the same in the two countries at that point, as well.
I doubt it. Mexicans aren't getting a lot of bargains. That's why
life in Mexico is hard---because their wages are low, but prices
aren't.
By what right should we expect to live any better than Mexicans doing
the same work that they do?
Possibly by no right. But by that point, there'll be a shooting war
anyways.
And Mexicans can't compete with the Chinese on cost of labor. That's
why the maquiladoras are leaving Mexico and going to China.
And when labor gets too expensive in China, they will leave China and
go to Bangladesh.
That's the way it works. Now tell me, how is an American supposed to
compete with a Bangladeshi making 20 rupees per day?
Live like a Bangladeshi, and it wouldn't be hard at all.
There'll be a shooting war long before that happens.
If the US cab no longer buy surplus goods and labor, the demand will
have dropped with the supply constant, and thus the price will drop.
Then the US and perhaps other countries will be able to buy the lower
priced goods and labor.
And a lot of factories will be idle.
Perhaps. Or maybe they'll switch to making things that are not
economically made overseas because of shipping costs.
The long term equilibrium of course is one of equal pay for equal
levels of skills and work in equivalent support environment worldwide.
The US would likely suffer considerably in standard of living to reach
this equilibrium point. While you and I wouldn't like it, I'm not
sure that this is necessarily a bad thing for the world.
So who is supposed to buy all those Ford Tauruses and Cadillacs if we
all make 50 cents an hour?
If we all make 50 cents and hour, the price of Fort Tauruses and
Cadillacs will be a couple of percent of the current price.
And by that point, money will be so valuable that it will be extremely
scarce, just as it was in pre-modern Europe.
Then we'll have a premodern economy. Maybe you'd like that. We can all
go back to the 10th century.
And they'll lay off lots of already impoverished people.
We have a long way to fall before one can call us "impoverished".
I wasn't talking about Americans.
lojbab
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 01:11:24 PM |
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(Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402010801.5b30c9b1@posting.google.com>...
"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it. Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Lisa
It will be a Great Day when all Comunistic Unions are Gone and Unions
are made Illegal.
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| User: "zepp" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 06:32:25 PM |
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On 1 Feb 2004 11:11:24 -0800, (Robert) wrote:
mandotar@aol.com (Lisa R.) wrote in message news:<7aa8d371.0402010801.5b30c9b1@posting.google.com>...
"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
And consumption will die with it. Who's going to be the consumer of
last resort when that happens?
Lisa
It will be a Great Day when all Comunistic Unions are Gone and Unions
are made Illegal.
Then you can go after the intellectuals, and then the Jews.
-
"The Seven Deadly Sins:
Wealth without work
Pleasure without conscience
Knowledge without character
Commerce without morality
Science without humanity
Worship without sacrifice
Politics without principle."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
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| User: "George Grapman" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 01:31:31 PM |
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Robert wrote:
Lisa
It will be a Great Day when all Comunistic Unions are Gone and Unions
are made Illegal.
You do know that Stalin banned unions? Guess that makes you a communist supporter.
Just because you work for minimum wage does not me the rest of us should.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete one c from paccbell
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| User: "Lisa R." |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 09:17:40 PM |
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George Grapman <sfgeorge@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<401D53F6.C170D8B@pacbell.net>...
Robert wrote:
Lisa
It will be a Great Day when all Comunistic Unions are Gone and Unions
are made Illegal.
You do know that Stalin banned unions?
So does the Chinese Communist Party.
Lisa
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| User: "Mr. Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 10:38:35 AM |
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"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
You ain't got a clue!
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| User: "George Grapman" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 11:00:38 AM |
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If the Bush rules go through only union members will get overtime pay.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete one c from paccbell
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| User: "Roger" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 02:11:58 AM |
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"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
From http://www.bushcountry.org/Bio_authors/tamara-wilhite_bio.htm
Tamara Wilhite graduated from the University of Texas at Arlington with a
B.S. in Industrial Engineering and was an officer in the Conservative
Students’ Association for three years. She currently works for a defense
contractor as a Process Engineer. She has been happily married for four
years and has one child.
One friend we recently caught up with was upbeat when we spoke with him.
He'
d been working his way through college to earn an IT degree for nine years
and had finally graduated. He'd started working at a unionized grocery
store
after starting school. He was still working there after graduation. Why?
After a decade at his position, he made more as an assistant manager at
the
store than he could make as a computer wiz in today's deflated market. We
have friends with technical and engineering degrees who are underemployed.
The thought that one could make more money doing what many of us did in
high
school made me start thinking about the job market as a whole.
Programming can be done by anyone, anywhere, any time as long as the work
is
done on time. India is doing just fine writing our software. Mexico is
taking Spanish language call center jobs. China has an infinite - or,
rather, billion-ite - edge when it comes to cheap manufacturing. Circuit
design and test is now moving there to take advantage of their exploding
college educated population.
It is the communications boom that is allowing the high skill, high level
of
education jobs move as well. Hence, our friend makes more money as an
assistant manager than he could as an entry level IT guy; the supply of
those with the skills is greater than the demand. The "blue collar"
manufacturing work has left the building. The "white collar" jobs the
union
hoped to unionize under a Democratic regime are leaving before the unions
can even get a foothold in those regions.
I was in the neighborhood Albertson's recently when I saw something
strange.
They'd taking four of the twelve checkout lines. Four gleaming
self-checkout
lanes now stood. One clerk who made sure no one walked out without ringing
up their purchases supervised them. And with a faster check out rate than
the clerks could manage a week before. Here was the marketplace and
Darwinism in action. Fewer clerks will be needed in the store. Lower
demand
for clerks will mean lower wages the union can demand. After all,
computers
can replace them now.
Technology allows jobs to move to cheaper regions. Technology allows us to
replace overpriced union labor with a cheaper mechanical option. The first
effect left our college-educated friend in an overpaid union job rather
than
an underpaid technical job. The latter will eventually erode the wage rate
of his current position.
Without unions demanding exorbitant pay rates, more low skill jobs would
stay in this country. Without unions demanding excess regulation,
businesses
would have more money to spend on building up business - and create jobs
in
the process. Without unions driving up labor costs for teachers, our
property taxes would be lower, giving everyone - employers to employees -
would have more money to spend locally. Without civil service unions,
everyone - employers to employees - would have more money to spend locally
because they wouldn't have so much taken away in taxes. Without unions,
the
employment options for everyone would be much brighter.
We can't abolish the unions. Even if there is a grand epiphany and not one
more person joined a union ever again, the unions would not vanish
overnight. And even if they did, it wouldn't get my recently downsized
husband a new job. Maybe the grocery store needs maintenance guys for the
new scanners. You can't export that work . yet.
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| User: "MHirtes" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
31 Jan 2004 10:47:14 PM |
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In article <101oscbsfff4l99@corp.supernews.com>, "dpr" <why> wrote:
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_uni
ons_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
Poor dpr, he's in for a shock this November.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die laughing at poor BUTTMASTER |
31 Jan 2004 10:52:30 PM |
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On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:35:00 -0900, "dpr" <why> wrote:
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
Writing about how "unions will die" in a fucking anti-union rag is simply hilarious
Especially when their hero is a liar, deserter, and brain-dead idiot.
---------------------------------------------------
ladies use my tongue for your pleasure
</groups?q=author:danaraffaniello%40worldnet.
att.net&start=210&hl=en&lr=&ie=UT>F-8&selm=
63j187%24nji%40bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net&rnum=226>
swm very oral will orally worship any female that wishes to be worshipped.
will kiss and lick your feet and butt .
might be wiling to be your toilet paper if you
are that aggressive
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| User: "SpikeSpiegel" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 03:00:50 AM |
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What kind of stupid closed-minded ***** are you?
Your are a teacher I gather that from some of your other post.(or your
dont have a opinion of your own and you post someone elses)
I feel for your students... that a bible-hammering (not thumping)
***** meets them each day to impose her values on them like a harpy.
People who don't believe what you do are evil.
Global warming is ***** to you.
Personal freedom is ***** to you.
Union's… safe and fair working conditions are ***** too.
You want war… not only war but it seems world war.
Freedom of religion is ***** too I see hmm you truly a person
people should listen to
You enjoy the spending practices of the government.
What a twisted piece of ***** you are.
Hitler gave more freedoms than you would impose on the world not just
the USA.
It seems to me you NEED someone to tell your stupid ***** what to do
every minute of everyday.
Here I got an idea for you .
Scrape together 300 dollars put a bag on your head hire a man to *****
you and release some of that... hate-for-life you have been holding
inside you all this time.
The self–hatred needs a shrink, I suggest a prolonged stay.
Liberalism
A political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential
goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and
standing for the protection of political and civil liberties
That's what I believe in the freedom of the individual.
If I'm not free why give a ***** about anybody else?
SS.
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| User: "dpr why" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
01 Feb 2004 04:58:21 AM |
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"SpikeSpiegel" <dustnsmoke@myway.com> wrote in message
news:bac7ddc9.0402010100.652416e@posting.google.com...
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/tamara-wilhite/c_012604_wilhite_unions_die.htm
Why The Unions Will Die
By Tamara Wilhite
One friend we recently caught up with was upbeat when we spoke with him. He'
d been working his way through college to earn an IT degree for nine years
and had finally graduated. He'd started working at a unionized grocery store
after starting school. He was still working there after graduation. Why?
After a decade at his position, he made more as an assistant manager at the
store than he could make as a computer wiz in today's deflated market. We
have friends with technical and engineering degrees who are underemployed.
The thought that one could make more money doing what many of us did in high
school made me start thinking about the job market as a whole.
Programming can be done by anyone, anywhere, any time as long as the work is
done on time. India is doing just fine writing our software. Mexico is
taking Spanish language call center jobs. China has an infinite - or,
rather, billion-ite - edge when it comes to cheap manufacturing. Circuit
design and test is now moving there to take advantage of their exploding
college educated population.
It is the communications boom that is allowing the high skill, high level of
education jobs move as well. Hence, our friend makes more money as an
assistant manager than he could as an entry level IT guy; the supply of
those with the skills is greater than the demand. The "blue collar"
manufacturing work has left the building. The "white collar" jobs the union
hoped to unionize under a Democratic regime are leaving before the unions
can even get a foothold in those regions.
I was in the neighborhood Albertson's recently when I saw something strange.
They'd taking four of the twelve checkout lines. Four gleaming self-checkout
lanes now stood. One clerk who made sure no one walked out without ringing
up their purchases supervised them. And with a faster check out rate than
the clerks could manage a week before. Here was the marketplace and
Darwinism in action. Fewer clerks will be needed in the store. Lower demand
for clerks will mean lower wages the union can demand. After all, computers
can replace them now.
Technology allows jobs to move to cheaper regions. Technology allows us to
replace overpriced union labor with a cheaper mechanical option. The first
effect left our college-educated friend in an overpaid union job rather than
an underpaid technical job. The latter will eventually erode the wage rate
of his current position.
Without unions demanding exorbitant pay rates, more low skill jobs would
stay in this country. Without unions demanding excess regulation, businesses
would have more money to spend on building up business - and create jobs in
the process. Without unions driving up labor costs for teachers, our
property taxes would be lower, giving everyone - employers to employees -
would have more money to spend locally. Without civil service unions,
everyone - employers to employees - would have more money to spend locally
because they wouldn't have so much taken away in taxes. Without unions, the
employment options for everyone would be much brighter.
We can't abolish the unions. Even if there is a grand epiphany and not one
more person joined a union ever again, the unions would not vanish
overnight. And even if they did, it wouldn't get my recently downsized
husband a new job. Maybe the grocery store needs maintenance guys for the
new scanners. You can't export that work . yet.
--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the state
at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.
.
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| User: "SpikeSpiegel" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Unions Will Die |
07 Feb 2004 02:44:44 PM |
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"dpr" <why> wrote in message news:<101pmb95e8ltocd@corp.supernews.com>...
"SpikeSpiegel" <dustnsmoke@myway.com> wrote in message
news:bac7ddc9.0402010100.652416e@posting.google.com...
<snip>
cut due to lack of an opinion
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