| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"formerly known as cat arranger" |
| Date: |
31 Oct 2004 01:50:57 PM |
| Object: |
About the ego |
It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
which is described as the problem in many religions...
anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there is
limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
.
|
|
| User: "tooly" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 06:26:57 AM |
|
|
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
which is described as the problem in many religions...
anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there is
limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
angles on defining the ego"
I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever selfish part
in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures risk
before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
aggrandizement in such
appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might be one
depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self sacrifice for
higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to suffer of
course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause gives
rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not believe we
may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our selfishness
into the subconscious or something?
Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of consciousness
most of our waking hours among others.
But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different angles
of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need him? He
is quite informative you know.
.
|
|
|
| User: "formerly known as cat arranger" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 02:10:25 PM |
|
|
"tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:yXphd.4877$T_.351@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
:
: "formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote
: in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
: > It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
: > want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
: > which is described as the problem in many religions...
: >
: > anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
: > are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
: > in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
: >
: > I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there
is
: > limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
: > of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
: > someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
: > Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
: > wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
: > nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
: > be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
: >
: > That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
: > after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
: >
:
: I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
: angles on defining the ego"
:
: I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever selfish
part
: in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures risk
: before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
: 'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
: aggrandizement in such
: appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might be
one
: depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self sacrifice
for
: higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to suffer
of
: course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause
gives
: rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not believe we
: may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
: suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our selfishness
: into the subconscious or something?
:
: Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of consciousness
: most of our waking hours among others.
:
: But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different
angles
: of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need him?
He
: is quite informative you know.
:
:
It is strange that we treat the word 'ego' as if it were something to be
defined.
It's real things that need to be defined, isn't it. So we can attach the
sound 'ego'
to what we want.
I don't see Freud as using ego to represent that clever self-serving part.
That's
Id. The ego is what mediates between the selfish and the demands of society
for self-sacrifice for the benefit of society. It is interesting to me that
some
instincts are not regulated in the same way as others. The maternal instinct
which
benefits mankind is not treated like the instincts that aren't beneficial to
society.
It is even hard to define them because they are suppressed and repressed and
generally not talked about, which is one of the strongest ways of curbing a
behavior... stating by conversation; actually lack of conversation that
something
is too bad to talk about even.
If you were going to create a species it would be very difficult to do it
without
making the individuals self-protecting. How can anything live if it doesn't
have
an instinct for survival. The ultimately selfless person would only live for
other
people or the environment or to be a steward of the earth. Actually since
those
things are in the interest of man that is selfish too. We can't conceive of
loving
or protecting things that are not in the service of mankind. What would you
have people do that is not in service of mankind? ... either in protecting
her
environment or her fellow man or those things that please or create
happiness
in her or in those that she loves.
Some people get pleasure from helping other people, from being productive
too. Others get pleasure from killing and hurting animals and people. Both
are pursuing selfish pleasure. But shouldn't there be a difference in the
name
that you give their motives?
Sorry if this sounds preachy.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Keynes" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 01:47:21 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:26:57 -0500, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote:
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
which is described as the problem in many religions...
anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there is
limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
angles on defining the ego"
I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever selfish part
in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures risk
before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
aggrandizement in such
appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might be one
depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self sacrifice for
higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to suffer of
course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause gives
rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not believe we
may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our selfishness
into the subconscious or something?
Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of consciousness
most of our waking hours among others.
But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different angles
of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need him? He
is quite informative you know.
According to the bible, ego is original sin.
The changes in Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit
clearly show the birth of the ego due to the ability to see
personal advantage and disadvantage. It is the discriminating
ego that keeps one out of the garden of paradise even now.
.
|
|
|
| User: "formerly known as cat arranger" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 01:55:18 PM |
|
|
"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:ng4do0htcnhnn454i93mrfdg2i12h5glqm@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:26:57 -0500, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
: >
: >"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote
: >in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
: >> It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
: >> want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
: >> which is described as the problem in many religions...
: >>
: >> anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
: >> are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
: >> in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
: >>
: >> I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there
is
: >> limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
: >> of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
: >> someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
: >> Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
: >> wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
: >> nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
: >> be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
: >>
: >> That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
: >> after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
: >>
: >
: >I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
: >angles on defining the ego"
: >
: >I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever selfish
part
: >in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures risk
: >before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
: >'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
: >aggrandizement in such
: >appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might be
one
: >depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self sacrifice
for
: >higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to suffer
of
: >course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause
gives
: >rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not believe
we
: >may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
: >suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our selfishness
: >into the subconscious or something?
: >
: >Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of
consciousness
: >most of our waking hours among others.
: >
: >But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different
angles
: >of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need him?
He
: >is quite informative you know.
: >
:
: According to the bible, ego is original sin.
: The changes in Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit
: clearly show the birth of the ego due to the ability to see
: personal advantage and disadvantage. It is the discriminating
: ego that keeps one out of the garden of paradise even now.
That is an attempt to attach psychological theory, whether
correct or not, to a Biblical passage. The Bible is going to be
around for a long time and people will try to provide meanings
that fit in with their own world view.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Keynes" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 11:27:35 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:55:18 -0800, "formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
<goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:ng4do0htcnhnn454i93mrfdg2i12h5glqm@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:26:57 -0500, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
: >
: >"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote
: >in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
: >> It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
: >> want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
: >> which is described as the problem in many religions...
: >>
: >> anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
: >> are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
: >> in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
: >>
: >> I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there
is
: >> limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
: >> of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
: >> someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
: >> Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
: >> wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
: >> nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
: >> be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
: >>
: >> That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
: >> after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
: >>
: >
: >I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
: >angles on defining the ego"
: >
: >I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever selfish
part
: >in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures risk
: >before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
: >'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
: >aggrandizement in such
: >appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might be
one
: >depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self sacrifice
for
: >higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to suffer
of
: >course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause
gives
: >rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not believe
we
: >may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
: >suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our selfishness
: >into the subconscious or something?
: >
: >Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of
consciousness
: >most of our waking hours among others.
: >
: >But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different
angles
: >of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need him?
He
: >is quite informative you know.
: >
:
: According to the bible, ego is original sin.
: The changes in Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit
: clearly show the birth of the ego due to the ability to see
: personal advantage and disadvantage. It is the discriminating
: ego that keeps one out of the garden of paradise even now.
That is an attempt to attach psychological theory, whether
correct or not, to a Biblical passage. The Bible is going to be
around for a long time and people will try to provide meanings
that fit in with their own world view.
It takes a notion of self to know that you're naked and to be
ashamed about it, and to hide and to lie about your actions.
It takes a notion of self to 'eat your bread by the sweat of your brow',
and to 'give birth in pain and sorrow', and to 'surely die'.
I think the Eden parable says what it says.
.
|
|
|
| User: "formerly known as cat arranger" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
02 Nov 2004 01:50:01 AM |
|
|
"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:gf6eo0tq2o3qkob89km8eclulmee8fdveh@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:55:18 -0800, "formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
: <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
:
: >
: >"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
: >news:ng4do0htcnhnn454i93mrfdg2i12h5glqm@4ax.com...
: >: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:26:57 -0500, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote:
: >:
: >: >
: >: >"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
: >wrote
: >: >in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
: >: >> It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
: >: >> want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
: >: >> which is described as the problem in many religions...
: >: >>
: >: >> anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why
people
: >: >> are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What
causes
: >: >> in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
: >: >>
: >: >> I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where
there
: >is
: >: >> limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an
image
: >: >> of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to
throw
: >: >> someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
: >: >> Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
: >: >> wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
: >: >> nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
: >: >> be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
: >: >>
: >: >> That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be
true
: >: >> after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
: >: >>
: >: >
: >: >I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
: >: >angles on defining the ego"
: >: >
: >: >I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever
selfish
: >part
: >: >in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures
risk
: >: >before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
: >: >'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
: >: >aggrandizement in such
: >: >appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might
be
: >one
: >: >depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self
sacrifice
: >for
: >: >higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to
suffer
: >of
: >: >course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause
: >gives
: >: >rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not
believe
: >we
: >: >may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
: >: >suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our
selfishness
: >: >into the subconscious or something?
: >: >
: >: >Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of
: >consciousness
: >: >most of our waking hours among others.
: >: >
: >: >But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different
: >angles
: >: >of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need
him?
: >He
: >: >is quite informative you know.
: >: >
: >:
: >: According to the bible, ego is original sin.
: >: The changes in Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit
: >: clearly show the birth of the ego due to the ability to see
: >: personal advantage and disadvantage. It is the discriminating
: >: ego that keeps one out of the garden of paradise even now.
: >
: >That is an attempt to attach psychological theory, whether
: >correct or not, to a Biblical passage. The Bible is going to be
: >around for a long time and people will try to provide meanings
: >that fit in with their own world view.
:
: It takes a notion of self to know that you're naked and to be
: ashamed about it, and to hide and to lie about your actions.
: It takes a notion of self to 'eat your bread by the sweat of your brow',
: and to 'give birth in pain and sorrow', and to 'surely die'.
:
: I think the Eden parable says what it says.
I understand that the Rabbis have a tradition that God knew what
every interpretation of the stories in the Bible, ie Old Testament,
would be and they discuss many many of them.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Keynes" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
02 Nov 2004 03:15:15 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:50:01 -0800, "formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
<goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:gf6eo0tq2o3qkob89km8eclulmee8fdveh@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:55:18 -0800, "formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
: <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
:
: >
: >"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
: >news:ng4do0htcnhnn454i93mrfdg2i12h5glqm@4ax.com...
: >: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:26:57 -0500, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote:
: >:
: >: >
: >: >"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
: >wrote
: >: >in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
: >: >> It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
: >: >> want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
: >: >> which is described as the problem in many religions...
: >: >>
: >: >> anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why
people
: >: >> are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What
causes
: >: >> in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
: >: >>
: >: >> I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where
there
: >is
: >: >> limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an
image
: >: >> of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to
throw
: >: >> someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
: >: >> Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
: >: >> wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
: >: >> nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
: >: >> be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
: >: >>
: >: >> That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be
true
: >: >> after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
: >: >>
: >: >
: >: >I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
: >: >angles on defining the ego"
: >: >
: >: >I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever
selfish
: >part
: >: >in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures
risk
: >: >before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
: >: >'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
: >: >aggrandizement in such
: >: >appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might
be
: >one
: >: >depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self
sacrifice
: >for
: >: >higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to
suffer
: >of
: >: >course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause
: >gives
: >: >rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not
believe
: >we
: >: >may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
: >: >suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our
selfishness
: >: >into the subconscious or something?
: >: >
: >: >Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of
: >consciousness
: >: >most of our waking hours among others.
: >: >
: >: >But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different
: >angles
: >: >of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need
him?
: >He
: >: >is quite informative you know.
: >: >
: >:
: >: According to the bible, ego is original sin.
: >: The changes in Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit
: >: clearly show the birth of the ego due to the ability to see
: >: personal advantage and disadvantage. It is the discriminating
: >: ego that keeps one out of the garden of paradise even now.
: >
: >That is an attempt to attach psychological theory, whether
: >correct or not, to a Biblical passage. The Bible is going to be
: >around for a long time and people will try to provide meanings
: >that fit in with their own world view.
:
: It takes a notion of self to know that you're naked and to be
: ashamed about it, and to hide and to lie about your actions.
: It takes a notion of self to 'eat your bread by the sweat of your brow',
: and to 'give birth in pain and sorrow', and to 'surely die'.
:
: I think the Eden parable says what it says.
I understand that the Rabbis have a tradition that God knew what
every interpretation of the stories in the Bible, ie Old Testament,
would be and they discuss many many of them.
I tried long ago in chicago to get my hands on those texts.
I got the 'Manionides' and 'sayings of the fathers', but they
were fairly enigmatic. As a gentile, I don't read hebrew.
I don't even know the names of the oral tradition commentaries.
IIRC Mamionides said that two things should not be thought
about -- creation and Ezekiel's chariot? Mamionides tried
to reconcile orthodoxy with aristotlian logic, and so preserve
the tradition into the age of reason.
What strikes me is the 'not-self' parallels in the vedas, Bagavad Gita,
the upanishads, taoism, and buddhism, that tie in with the Eden story, the
sermon on the mount and the Lord's Prayer. It also made sense for me of
the ten commandments, which are such an insult to our arrogant selves.
This sameness seems to me to give the mark of truth to that insight.
So taking it seriously I went to see about it for myself.
.
|
|
|
| User: "formerly known as cat arranger" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
02 Nov 2004 06:32:55 PM |
|
|
"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:2tieo0hjricf4p8083jejfbt9vobrqbh4v@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:50:01 -0800, "formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
: <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
:
: >
: >"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
: >news:gf6eo0tq2o3qkob89km8eclulmee8fdveh@4ax.com...
: >: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:55:18 -0800, "formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
: >: <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
: >:
: >: >
: >: >"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
: >: >news:ng4do0htcnhnn454i93mrfdg2i12h5glqm@4ax.com...
: >: >: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:26:57 -0500, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
: >: >:
: >: >: >
: >: >: >"formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
<goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
: >: >wrote
: >: >: >in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
: >: >: >> It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything
you
: >: >: >> want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the
ego
: >: >: >> which is described as the problem in many religions...
: >: >: >>
: >: >: >> anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why
: >people
: >: >: >> are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What
: >causes
: >: >: >> in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
: >: >: >>
: >: >: >> I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where
: >there
: >: >is
: >: >: >> limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an
: >image
: >: >: >> of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to
: >throw
: >: >: >> someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is
likeable?
: >: >: >> Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
: >: >: >> wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat
with
: >: >: >> nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there
may
: >: >: >> be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
: >: >: >>
: >: >: >> That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be
: >true
: >: >: >> after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
: >: >: >>
: >: >: >
: >: >: >I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this
subject..."different
: >: >: >angles on defining the ego"
: >: >: >
: >: >: >I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever
: >selfish
: >: >part
: >: >: >in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It
measures
: >risk
: >: >: >before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may
appear
: >: >: >'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
: >: >: >aggrandizement in such
: >: >: >appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven
might
: >be
: >: >one
: >: >: >depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self
: >sacrifice
: >: >for
: >: >: >higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to
: >suffer
: >: >of
: >: >: >course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher
cause
: >: >gives
: >: >: >rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not
: >believe
: >: >we
: >: >: >may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts.
I
: >: >: >suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our
: >selfishness
: >: >: >into the subconscious or something?
: >: >: >
: >: >: >Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of
: >: >consciousness
: >: >: >most of our waking hours among others.
: >: >: >
: >: >: >But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting
different
: >: >angles
: >: >: >of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need
: >him?
: >: >He
: >: >: >is quite informative you know.
: >: >: >
: >: >:
: >: >: According to the bible, ego is original sin.
: >: >: The changes in Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit
: >: >: clearly show the birth of the ego due to the ability to see
: >: >: personal advantage and disadvantage. It is the discriminating
: >: >: ego that keeps one out of the garden of paradise even now.
: >: >
: >: >That is an attempt to attach psychological theory, whether
: >: >correct or not, to a Biblical passage. The Bible is going to be
: >: >around for a long time and people will try to provide meanings
: >: >that fit in with their own world view.
: >:
: >: It takes a notion of self to know that you're naked and to be
: >: ashamed about it, and to hide and to lie about your actions.
: >: It takes a notion of self to 'eat your bread by the sweat of your
brow',
: >: and to 'give birth in pain and sorrow', and to 'surely die'.
: >:
: >: I think the Eden parable says what it says.
: >
: >I understand that the Rabbis have a tradition that God knew what
: >every interpretation of the stories in the Bible, ie Old Testament,
: >would be and they discuss many many of them.
:
: I tried long ago in chicago to get my hands on those texts.
: I got the 'Manionides' and 'sayings of the fathers', but they
: were fairly enigmatic. As a gentile, I don't read hebrew.
: I don't even know the names of the oral tradition commentaries.
:
: IIRC Mamionides said that two things should not be thought
: about -- creation and Ezekiel's chariot? Mamionides tried
: to reconcile orthodoxy with aristotlian logic, and so preserve
: the tradition into the age of reason.
:
: What strikes me is the 'not-self' parallels in the vedas, Bagavad Gita,
: the upanishads, taoism, and buddhism, that tie in with the Eden story, the
: sermon on the mount and the Lord's Prayer. It also made sense for me of
: the ten commandments, which are such an insult to our arrogant selves.
:
: This sameness seems to me to give the mark of truth to that insight.
: So taking it seriously I went to see about it for myself.
There are some pretty accessible texts. One book that I liked was "A
Rabbinic
Anthology". But the entire oral tradition of Israel was written down in
something
called... it starts with an M. Just a second. Mishnah.
There aren't many questions about the Bible that the Jews, the Rabbis don't
have an answer for. The Jews don't proselytize, apparently, so there won't
be any revival meetings. I took a class in Judaism in College. There is even
a blessing where God leaves someone alone for their own good.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Xs Lover" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
02 Nov 2004 01:02:35 AM |
|
|
In article <gf6eo0tq2o3qkob89km8eclulmee8fdveh@4ax.com>,
Keynes <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote:
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:55:18 -0800, "formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
<goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:ng4do0htcnhnn454i93mrfdg2i12h5glqm@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:26:57 -0500, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
: >
: >"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote
: >in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
: >> It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
: >> want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
: >> which is described as the problem in many religions...
: >>
: >> anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
: >> are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
: >> in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
: >>
: >> I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there
is
: >> limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
: >> of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
: >> someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
: >> Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
: >> wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
: >> nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
: >> be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
: >>
: >> That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
: >> after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
: >>
: >
: >I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
: >angles on defining the ego"
: >
: >I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever selfish
part
: >in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures risk
: >before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
: >'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
: >aggrandizement in such
: >appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might be
one
: >depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self sacrifice
for
: >higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to suffer
of
: >course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause
gives
: >rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not believe
we
: >may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
: >suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our selfishness
: >into the subconscious or something?
: >
: >Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of
consciousness
: >most of our waking hours among others.
: >
: >But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different
angles
: >of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need him?
He
: >is quite informative you know.
: >
:
: According to the bible, ego is original sin.
: The changes in Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit
: clearly show the birth of the ego due to the ability to see
: personal advantage and disadvantage. It is the discriminating
: ego that keeps one out of the garden of paradise even now.
That is an attempt to attach psychological theory, whether
correct or not, to a Biblical passage. The Bible is going to be
around for a long time and people will try to provide meanings
that fit in with their own world view.
It takes a notion of self to know that you're naked and to be
ashamed about it, and to hide and to lie about your actions.
It takes a notion of self to 'eat your bread by the sweat of your brow',
and to 'give birth in pain and sorrow', and to 'surely die'.
I think the Eden parable says what it says.
I'd say that is the aware of others that creates this.
.
|
|
|
|
|
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| User: "tooly" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 07:08:47 PM |
|
|
"Keynes" <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:ng4do0htcnhnn454i93mrfdg2i12h5glqm@4ax.com...
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:26:57 -0500, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote:
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote
in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
which is described as the problem in many religions...
anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there
is
limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
angles on defining the ego"
I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever selfish
part
in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures risk
before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
aggrandizement in such
appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might be
one
depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self sacrifice
for
higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one likes to suffer
of
course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude to higher cause
gives
rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one however, do not believe we
may ever escape our selfish core...even in supposed selfless acts. I
suppose super ego might take place only when we suppress our selfishness
into the subconscious or something?
Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of consciousness
most of our waking hours among others.
But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different
angles
of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need him?
He
is quite informative you know.
According to the bible, ego is original sin.
The changes in Adam and Eve after eating the forbidden fruit
clearly show the birth of the ego due to the ability to see
personal advantage and disadvantage. It is the discriminating
ego that keeps one out of the garden of paradise even now.
You know, this makes sense to me in fact [that ego is original sin]. I'm
afraid my struggle to remain Christian while also having a mind processed
through our academic institutions, have necessitated some creative thinking
on my part. I know most pastors and priests would declare me as some sort
of heretic for this. I recognized something at the core of Christianity
that I simply was not willing to let go of; and I have not regretted it.
But where I tie this in to this thread about 'ego' was that I came to my own
'spiritual wall' where I could not find a way around 'selfishness'. I am
selfish. Nothing that I did or could say or act or BE...could 'prove' to
myself [much less to my notions of a Supreme Existence] that I could be
'selfless'. In fact, my logic brought me to the one and only 'act' that
'could' in some way 'prove' my selflessness...and that would be ironically,
to 'die'. However nutty this sounds, I do believe we cannot approach this
'perfect BEing' with 'ego'...which indeed is this 'selfishness' that is
innate in our conscious notion of self.
This all parallels nicely some key Christian concepts...that we are born
into sin; that Christ is the one and only 'bridge' by which we may cross
this chasm that seperates us from God [namely, self]. He died for us...but
not necessarily in the same understanding as I've heard in Church.
Ah, I get too much into what others will see as my own zany 'religious'
ideas here...but perhaps it might be useful, I dunno. But it does relate
very well with this idea that 'ego' is 'original' sin [as I have understood
things anyway]. To me, scripture is a 'means' to an 'end'. The end, no
matter how one may arrive at it, remains a matter of 'state'. But I've
decided that Christ was logically necessary and very real. Wouldn't most
intellectuals today be horribly shocked senseless if to realize that it may
'all be very true'. Of course, we'd still be strapped with the puzzle,
which church is the right one?
.
|
|
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| User: "Chickenlips" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 12:39:23 PM |
|
|
Where's Immortalist when you need him? He
is quite informative you know.
Make that Infirm. Ego Waffles are good with butter and
maple syrup.
"tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:yXphd.4877$T_.351@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote in message news:smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04...
It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
which is described as the problem in many religions...
anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there
is
limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
I'd like to see one of Immortalists posts on this subject..."different
angles on defining the ego"
I suppose I cater to the Freudian idea, where ego is the clever selfish
part in us. The egotistical is calculating from this angle. It measures
risk before it behaves. It is the political creature in us. It may appear
'moral' and even selfless, but only because it recognizes personal
aggrandizement in such
appearance. The rich man attempting to buy his way into heaven might be
one depiction. Anyone circumventing their own suffering and self
sacrifice for higher moral ground would be egotistical I think. No one
likes to suffer of course, but embracing suffering for sake of servitude
to higher cause gives rise to Freud's notion of super ego. I for one
however, do not believe we may ever escape our selfish core...even in
supposed selfless acts. I suppose super ego might take place only when we
suppress our selfishness into the subconscious or something?
Of course, we probably operate from our egotistical plain of consciousness
most of our waking hours among others.
But I imagine there are other defining elements, presenting different
angles of ego than the freudian angle. Where's Immortalist when you need
him? He is quite informative you know.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Ryan Tanaka" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
02 Nov 2004 10:51:28 PM |
|
|
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04>...
Preservation of the world view, maybe.
Ryan
It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
which is described as the problem in many religions...
anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there is
limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Xs Lover" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
31 Oct 2004 01:45:43 PM |
|
|
In article <smbhd.195721$a85.178444@fed1read04>,
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
It may be that the ego, which can be defined as about anything you
want from a 'strong ego', which is healthy in psychology to the ego
which is described as the problem in many religions...
anyway for this discussion ego means that which is part of why people
are overly completive, or rather can be overly competitive. What causes
in part, some people to feel alienated from others...
I find your analogy a little confusing. (Boats, ugh!)
Your analogy though requires that I believe in the Freudian concept of
an Id, Ego and Superego.
I think it might have to do with a scenario like a lifeboat where there is
limited food and water. People on the lifeboat try to project an image
of themselves as useful to the group in case their is a vote to throw
someone over or limit their rations. Who is funny? Who is likeable?
Who can build boats and huts? And who is scary enough that you
wouldn't take their ration. And maybe, who came into the boat with
nice clothes have an edge because they look successful and there may
be a myth that successful are in favor with a god/God.
That's something I've thought for a long time and it seems to be true
after years of positing, which doesn't happen often for me.
.
|
|
|
| User: "formerly known as cat arranger" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
31 Oct 2004 04:29:41 PM |
|
|
The idea of a lifeboat as in the movie by that name, Arthur Hitchkock.
It's just that it explains a lot of things about projecting an image and why
that might be advantageous or imagined to be advantageous.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Xs Lover" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
31 Oct 2004 03:51:27 PM |
|
|
In article <hHdhd.195755$a85.174422@fed1read04>,
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
The idea of a lifeboat as in the movie by that name, Arthur Hitchkock.
It's just that it explains a lot of things about projecting an image and why
that might be advantageous or imagined to be advantageous.
Reminds me of Gestalt exercises.
.
|
|
|
| User: "formerly known as cat arranger" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 03:04:54 AM |
|
|
"X's Lover" <together@hell.com> wrote in message
news:together-A5E4B9.17512731102004@news.isp.giganews.com...
: In article <hHdhd.195755$a85.174422@fed1read04>,
: "formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
: wrote:
:
: > The idea of a lifeboat as in the movie by that name, Arthur Hitchkock.
: > It's just that it explains a lot of things about projecting an image and
why
: > that might be advantageous or imagined to be advantageous.
:
: Reminds me of Gestalt exercises.
Why? I never saw anything like it in Gestalt. And I'm
a student of Gestalt. I should say I'm in no way a teacher
or anything like that. I have some tools but I haven't used
them well enough to get to a place of any certainty about
what other people should or can do or whatever...
.
|
|
|
| User: "Xs Lover" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 03:06:27 AM |
|
|
In article <Q_mhd.196024$a85.53480@fed1read04>,
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"X's Lover" <together@hell.com> wrote in message
news:together-A5E4B9.17512731102004@news.isp.giganews.com...
: In article <hHdhd.195755$a85.174422@fed1read04>,
: "formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
: wrote:
:
: > The idea of a lifeboat as in the movie by that name, Arthur Hitchkock.
: > It's just that it explains a lot of things about projecting an image and
why
: > that might be advantageous or imagined to be advantageous.
:
: Reminds me of Gestalt exercises.
Why? I never saw anything like it in Gestalt.
I do/did. It reminded me of dream work and polarity exercises that
utilize artwork. In fact, I recall a few hot seats that had utilized
projection in the same way.
And I'm
a student of Gestalt.
Me too.
I should say I'm in no way a teacher
or anything like that. I have some tools but I haven't used
them well enough to get to a place of any certainty about
what other people should or can do or whatever...
.
|
|
|
| User: "formerly known as cat arranger" |
|
| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 01:04:54 PM |
|
|
"X's Lover" <together@hell.com> wrote in message
news:together-A4D567.05062701112004@news.isp.giganews.com...
: In article <Q_mhd.196024$a85.53480@fed1read04>,
: "formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
: wrote:
:
: > "X's Lover" <together@hell.com> wrote in message
: > news:together-A5E4B9.17512731102004@news.isp.giganews.com...
: > : In article <hHdhd.195755$a85.174422@fed1read04>,
: > : "formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
: > : wrote:
: > :
: > : > The idea of a lifeboat as in the movie by that name, Arthur
Hitchkock.
: > : > It's just that it explains a lot of things about projecting an image
and
: > why
: > : > that might be advantageous or imagined to be advantageous.
: > :
: > : Reminds me of Gestalt exercises.
: >
: > Why? I never saw anything like it in Gestalt.
:
: I do/did. It reminded me of dream work and polarity exercises that
: utilize artwork. In fact, I recall a few hot seats that had utilized
: projection in the same way.
Ok but the scenario of people's existence being contingent on the
image that they project to other people was my point. I do understand
what you said. : -)
: > And I'm
: > a student of Gestalt.
:
: Me too.
:
: > I should say I'm in no way a teacher
: > or anything like that. I have some tools but I haven't used
: > them well enough to get to a place of any certainty about
: > what other people should or can do or whatever...
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| User: "Xs Lover" |
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| Title: Re: About the ego |
01 Nov 2004 07:36:35 PM |
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In article <fNvhd.196099$a85.137009@fed1read04>,
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Ok but the scenario of people's existence being contingent on the
image that they project to other people was my point. I do understand
what you said. : -)
This is why I have some complaints of traditional notions in psychology.
I would never have made the point in the same way. Theory would argue
very differently than I would on the mechanism of how that particular
image surfaced for you.
.
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