| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"PPEACE" |
| Date: |
24 Nov 2006 12:45:35 AM |
| Object: |
ALMIGHTY GOD EXITS --, 10 ARGUMENTS |
PEACE BE UPON YOU, YOUR ALL LOVED ONES AND ON ALL HUMANITY.
ALMIGHTY GOD EXISTS---TEN ARGUMENTS
In this era, denial of God is the ultimate attack upon theology by
materialistic minds.
Atheist demands: show the God.
Human uses five senses to identify various things.
Color can only be seen, not touched; sound cannot be seen, just heard;
smell of rose cannot be tasted, only smelled, so on and so forth.
There are things which cannot be sensed by five senses; eg, wisdom,
conscience, power, etc. These things can be only be recognized through
their effects.
More subtle the thing is, more less-directly sensible it is.
God is not seen with physical eyes; but can be recognized by His
omnipotent effects of His holy attributes. These attributes color the
canvas of the universe.
< Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is
Incomprehensible (Subtle), the All-Wise>. (Quran ch-6 v-104)
So, it is now clear that insisting upon seeing God with eyes is an
unrealistic demand.
ARGUMENT-1
In every nation and country of far past in history, when no modern ways
of communication were present and people did not know other places.
There always existed an idea of a supreme being(s) at each place
simaltaneously. Thousands of nations cannot have the idea of God(s)
unless they had been informed by certain way . And they were informed
by God himself.
ARGUMENT-2
People of high morals and characters are trustworthy in every nation
and time. Those people who never spoke a little lie in material
matters, when they testify about the existence of God then their this
testimony must be accepted too.
Truthfuls of India Ramchander and Krishan, truthful of iran Zoroaster,
truthful of Egypt Moses, truthful of Nazerah Messiah, truthful of
Panjab Nanak, truthful of all truthfuls from Arab
Muhammad---[(blessings on all of them) people in whom he was brought
up called him Sadiq ( the truthful) since his childhood]--- and all
the truthful of world in different era unanimously testified about
the existence of a God.
More than that, they testified to have honor to get His talk.
Because of what they testified, these truthful men were persecuted,
forced to leave homelands, boycotted, attempts were made on their
lives, they were not interested in worldly gains, they were proven
selfless.
Please compare prophets' lofty active-for-all-goodness-characters
with those of actionless-philosophers who taught people of truthfulness
but did not abstain from lies.
Surely prophets have had all credentials to be believed when they
claimed and testified about existence of a Unique God.
Law of testimony describes: if two persons of equal truthfulness
testify about a single matter. One testify about seeing a particular
thing ---- and the other person say, he has not seen that thing then
first person's testimony shall be accepted ( as it is possible that
second person did not look at the thing at all, but it is NOTpossible
the first person did not see and claim to have seen it ).
ARGUMENT- 3
Human nature (including that of great atheists), abhors certain acts.
Tongues may never admit but there, surely, exists an awe of a Super
Power in human minds which keep them away from certain acts.
Secondly, If there was no God, no power of distinguishing between good
and evil could have existed in human nature.
But sense of distinguishing between goodness and evil is seeded in
human hearts. Self condemns upon wrong doing (no room for original sin
philosophy too!).
These compass like passions are planted by God , who exists.
ARGUMENT- 4
Every act requires a doer-plus--As much as we track back the steps in
birth of human race, it seems weeker and weeker and contemptible.
Man is not creator of himself now when he is fully evolved, then how
could he be his own creator when he was not worth mentioning at initial
stage of his evilution..
Hence a creator made human.
Creation leads to a Creator.
ARGUMENT - 5
Things which are made by mere chance are never organized.
Throwing colors on a paper do not make a well drawn picture. Systematic
universe could not be made by it self.
More organized a product is, greater is the Fashioner.
All demands are met; complementary components of the universe are
present according to the demand.
Human has intrinsic powers to progress. To let materialize their ideas,
complimentary wisdom and physical bodies are bestowed to them.
If lion is made to eat meaty prey, it is given the sharp nailed paws
which help in hunting.
Horse need grass on ground to graze. It is equipped with suitable neck.
It is not chance which gave the human his wisdom and a special body; no
chance has provided lion sharp nailed paws and no chance has provided a
horse a particular type of neck.
Even IF evolution is credited for all complimentary developments, it is
brighter than sunshine that evolution was NOT blind too. (athiest might
be!)
Other examples of complimentary makings:
For mortal things, phenomenon of new births is associated. And for
undieables, no such system is attached.
We should be humble and thankful to have knowledge in our heads which
we can write down with fingers. Tiger has no such knowledge in its head
and very apprpriately it is given paws!!
Take a pause please---------------
Organized and complimentary making is done by God-the Organizer.
Creation and Evolution are directional . THERE IS ALL-WISE WILLFUL
DIRECTOR and ORGANIZER.
ARGUMENT- 6
Deniers of God are always abased losers.
God give dominance to believers upon non-believers.
When holy Moses called Pharoah to God, he replied arrogantly : <
Saying, I am your Lord, the most high. So Allah seized him for
punishment of the Hereafter and the present world > . (Quraan ch-79
v-25,26).
Atheistic Kingdoms and Walls do not stay!
ARGUMENT -7
Believers of God ( with good deeds ) always get success despite all
opposition.
Callers to God are born in each nation, no opposition could win against
them.
Ramchander succeeded and Rawan doomed forever, Krishan' s denial by
Koro earned him nothing but defeat in Krochethar-land. Pharoah used
israelities as labour and stood against weak and humble Moses, Paroah
was washed out and Kingdom fell to Moses. People stood against empty
handed Jesus, he suffered temporarily and migrated to India through
Afghanistan to Kashmir peacefully ( historical, medical and other
proofs : JESUS IN INDIA : ww.alislam.org ) Followers of Jesus became
kings; enemies' way was crossed by thrownful fate.
Universal messenger and topmost caller to God, Muhammad (blessing on
him and all prophets) was opposed by seven nations in his life. (till
now he is being worldwidely oppressed-this all time resistance proves
his all time universal spiritual light ).
After his claim of Unity of God, his friends turned into foes. He
braved such hardships which are beyond a pretender and imposter to
suffer through. He started his life as a powerless, helpless,
unlettered, and unaided coinless orphan. He brought the message of
Unity of God and succeeded against great nations of world who had
plentitude of financial, military, and intellectual means. He brought
forth resplendent education with conclusive arguments, irrefutable
proofs which dumb-founded every opponent.
Excelling the whole world in wisdom, knowledge and strength, can this
be accomplished without the help of God?
EVERGREEN MESSAGE :
< And those who take Allah and His Messenger and the believers for
friends (should rest assured) that it is the group of Allah that must
triumph>. Quraan ch-5 v-57
* n.b; group of Allah is not currrent geo-politic-religious extremists
and destroyers of humanity and land on the name of Allah(God)
ARGUMENT- 8
<And when my servants ask thee about Me, (say): I am near. I answer the
prayer of the supplicant when he prays to Me. So they should hearken to
Me and believe in Me, that they may follow the right way >. Quraan ch-2
v-187
Acceptance of prayer is direct poof of presence of God.
But one may object and say: by chance some matters are resolved while
others not .
In this era, Promised in all religions Revivor and Reformer ( 1889 @
ww.alislam.org ) accepted this challenge humbly and trustly upon God.
He suggested :
Two groups of very sick patients could be brought ; one group could
get medical treatment and for other he would pray.
This was a very open challenge.
He called and re-taught the world about this forgotten mercy of
God----acceptance of prayers.
In fact prayers till today are being answered as God is ever present.
ARGUMENT-9
Revelation is the great conclusive argument.
<Allah strengthens the believers with the word that is firmly
established, in the present life and in the Hereafter>. (Quraan ch-14
v-28)
In all era, God has spoken to many people.
He has been speaking, not only, with the prophets but with His pious
humble friends (holy people). Seeds of true dreams are present in
humanity as argument; Revelation is the most refined form of true
dreams.
Through relvelation and dreams, God foretells events of near and far
future.
For example, in Torah and Quraan , prophecies about the christainity
related material progresses are mentioned, in short and in details,
which has become true.
Quraan prophesied nearly 1500 years ago about a particular era:
<And when the she-cammels, ten month pregnant, are abandoned. >
Quraan ch-81 v-5
Ours are times, when because of railway service and other modern
transportations camels are not in travel service as they used to be in
past.
Quraan does contain a revelation; < And when books are spread abroad>
Quraan ch-81 v-11
Our times is the time of fast spread of books worldwide.
Also Quraan foretold; < On the day when quaking shall quake and a
second (quaking) shall follow it. > Quraan ch-79.v-7,8
These words forecasted unusually high frequency of earth quakes and
calamities in this era:
STATISTICS:
=in previous 1100 years = 11 big earthquakes (50000 plus deaths each)
=BUT in last 100 years = 13 major quakes!
= wars from year 1900 to 2000 = 95 million deaths
= year 2001 to 2005 = 5 major destructions in world
REASON. (spiritual angle), these sudden high numbers in miseries is
promised Divine reminder.
1) Now people have forgotten God and 2) they commit bad deeds upto
the last limits and 3) at the same time there is a call from Promised
Divine Reformer ( ww.alislam.org ); he is denied; these factors
attracts the shaking warnings from earth and sky.
= for peace, let us hear and act upon what God says and purify hearts,
give right to God; right to people, clean up bad emotions; daily
tearful prayers; noble usage of natural laws.
COMING BACK TO OUR ARGUMENT:
In islam, during each century, true followers has been blessed with
divine revelations. Through them are shown the live signs of Omnipotent
Willful God.
The Promised Appointed Servant of God for peace appeared humbly in an
obscure town of subcontinent India in 1880s, unknown to the world and
God revelead to him as forecast:
<From each route people shall come to thee, and their coming in large
numbers shall deepen the paths. Those people shall help you whose
hearts, We(God) shall inspire. Then not you be unmindful to visitors
and not you get tired of meeting them>.( translation-sense: Braheen e
Ahmadiyya 1881 p-241).
In his life time, visitor reached to him from all over the world, to
get his blessings.
Now his message of peace with God and peace with humanity has spread
in 185 countries with 200 plus million followings, by the grace of God
( ww.alislam.org ww.mta.tv ww.ahmadiyya.org.uk ww.ahmadiyya.us
ww.ahmadiyya.ca ww.ahmadiyya.org.au ww.ahmadiyya.de
ww.islamahmadiyya.net (arby) plus.........)
Revelation descended upon him, and he continued to excel. Now his 5th
successor in office continues his work with the help of Allah-the
Almighty.
ARGUMENT -10
This argument is derived from :
<And those who strive in Our paths---we will surely guide them in Our
ways...> Quraan ch-29 v-70
People always are benefited from the message of this verse.
Anyone who denies God must think: if there is God, then to find truth
about Him will definitely require lot of struggle.
If such person has hearty desire to know the truth, he or she should
pray with zeal:
< O Lord, if You exists, and if you are--The One with Unlimited Powers,
as Your believers describe, have mercy upon me and show me the path
towards You, and fill my heart with surety and believe so that I do not
remain a loser >.
If someone will pray like this with true heart for at least 40 days
then no matter in which religion he or she was born and no matter which
country they belong to, Lord and Sustainer of all universes will surely
bless them with righteousness and will prove to them His presence in a
way that dirt of all doubts shall be washed.
This is the doubtless way to get decision on this matter.
Is it difficult to act upon for truth seekers??
May these words reach to all.
~~ O ~~
A MAJOR ATTRIBUTES OF GOD - The RAB
1- On this world, Allah's blessing is of four major types.
2- First one is a general one, and it is upon all creation; with or
without souls, for all living and non-living things, in heavens or in
earth.
3-Things become---- from nothing to Being, then turn to Perfection
because of the blessing of this attribute-The Rab.
4- RAB= Creator; Manager of Evolution to Completion; Owner; Whom
everything obeys; Nourisher; Corrector; Mistakeless; Producer of right
results; Blesser of bounties; Completioner ( promised peace reformer
ww.mta.tv)
5- Praise of God is linked with Rab.
6- Complete spiritual way = which calls whole humanity to God-the
Rab.
7- Human must have unbreakable ties with Rab.
8- example = Early Christian were strongly bonded with One God-the
Rab, hence they spreaded.
9-Then they distracted & now most of them are practically atheists.
10-Welcome To comeback n reach to the Last Comprehensive Promised-Step
of Religious Evolution - ISLAM = LOVE FOR ALL HATRED FOR NONE
ww.alislam.org ww.mta.tv ( Multilanguage)
ww.alislam.org/archives/2006/mp3/FS102706EN.mp3 = Friday Sermons
IF THERE IS NO GOD, THERE IS NO PEACE. THAT IS THE ULTIMATE WISDOM.
THANK YOU.
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| User: "ZerkonX" |
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| Title: Re: ALMIGHTY GOD EXITS --, 10 ARGUMENTS |
27 Nov 2006 01:08:16 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 22:45:35 -0800, PPEACE wrote:
In this era, denial of God is the ultimate attack upon theology by
materialistic minds.
Denial is deemed an attack only by materialists. Denial is a matter of
will, belief, opinion or knowledge which, if you believe what you say, can
only be given to each of us by God for His purpose known only to Him. You
have no moral foundation to judge that which comes to each of us directly
from God.
For all of you guys who are trying to 'prove' the existence of whatever
god you think you're 'protecting'(!!!), I would strongly suggest reading
at least this guy who made a life out of such a thing and who is by far
better at it then any one reading this post.
At least you will have an interesting argument!! Just zipper in your own
special friend..
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1044.htm#2
Dominus vobiscum
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: ALMIGHTY GOD EXITS --, 10 ARGUMENTS |
27 Nov 2006 10:40:31 AM |
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PPEACE wrote:
PEACE BE UPON YOU, YOUR ALL LOVED ONES AND ON ALL HUMANITY.
ALMIGHTY GOD EXISTS---TEN ARGUMENTS
[continued]
ARGUMENT- 6
Deniers of God are always abased losers.
God give dominance to believers upon non-believers.
When holy Moses called Pharoah to God, he replied arrogantly : <
Saying, I am your Lord, the most high. So Allah seized him for
punishment of the Hereafter and the present world > . (Quraan ch-79
v-25,26).
Atheistic Kingdoms and Walls do not stay!
This argument is pure ad hominem, but it's worth noting that Religiuos
Kingdoms and Walls fall down the same as atheist ones, and Religious
folk die just like atheists; if one set is losers, then so is the
other. (It's worth pointing out that Pharoah was not an atheist - he
in fact believed in 'Gods' - yet that did not protect him from being a
'loser.)
ARGUMENT -7
Believers of God ( with good deeds ) always get success despite all
opposition.
But that contradicts what you said in (IIRC) Argument 2, about the
prophets suffering persecution, being driven into exile, and even being
killed. You seem to be evaluating the evidence with a preconceived
bias.
Callers to God are born in each nation, no opposition could win against
them.
Ramchander succeeded and Rawan doomed forever, Krishan' s denial by
Koro earned him nothing but defeat in Krochethar-land. Pharoah used
israelities as labour and stood against weak and humble Moses, Paroah
was washed out and Kingdom fell to Moses. People stood against empty
handed Jesus, he suffered temporarily and migrated to India through
Afghanistan to Kashmir peacefully ( historical, medical and other
proofs : JESUS IN INDIA : ww.alislam.org ) Followers of Jesus became
kings; enemies' way was crossed by thrownful fate.
Based on the historical record (and not the accounts of what happened
to Jesus after his historical death), his mission was a miserable
failure; he ended up with nothing but a small, fanatical cult. It was
only after Paul joined and *changed the mission - into a mission to the
Gentiles instead - that it began to be anything more. So the
historical Jesus is in fact a counter-example to your premise that
'Believers in God 9with good deeds) will always get success." But
there's no need to dwell on him alone.
Universal messenger and topmost caller to God, Muhammad (blessing on
him and all prophets) [BOHAAP] was opposed by seven nations in his life. (till
now he is being worldwidely oppressed-this all time resistance proves
his all time universal spiritual light ).
After his claim of Unity of God, his friends turned into foes. He
braved such hardships which are beyond a pretender and imposter to
suffer through. He started his life as a powerless, helpless,
unlettered, and unaided coinless orphan. He brought the message of
Unity of God and succeeded against great nations of world who had
plentitude of financial, military, and intellectual means. He brought
forth resplendent education with conclusive arguments, irrefutable
proofs which dumb-founded every opponent.
Excelling the whole world in wisdom, knowledge and strength, can this
be accomplished without the help of God?
Not to diminish Muhammad (BOHAAP) and his accomplishments, but
according to the records you're relying on Moses did much the same
thing. Yet Moses witnessed to a different 'God', a 'God' that was
solely concerned with the Jewish people. It's not absurd to think that
there were two different 'Gods', one of Moses and one of Muhammad
(BOHAAP).
However, each also testified that his 'God' was the only God - and for
there to be two different 'Gods', each of which wa the only 'God',
would be absurd. Therefore one of either
Moses or Muhammad (BOHAAP) was proclaiming a false 'God'.
Which evidences that such a thing can be accomplished without the help
of 'God,' since even if there were a true 'God' (ie, one that existed
in fact), that true 'God' would have reason to not want to propagate
belief in a false one.
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: ALMIGHTY GOD EXITS --, 10 ARGUMENTS |
27 Nov 2006 10:19:58 AM |
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PPEACE wrote:
PEACE BE UPON YOU, YOUR ALL LOVED ONES AND ON ALL HUMANITY.
ALMIGHTY GOD EXISTS---TEN ARGUMENTS
snip
ARGUMENT-2
People of high morals and characters are trustworthy in every nation
and time. Those people who never spoke a little lie in material
matters, when they testify about the existence of God then their this
testimony must be accepted too.
I've already pointed out that that argument rests some hidden premises
which imply "whatever a trustworthy person says, is true". That's a
dubious premise:
Truthfuls of India Ramchander and Krishan, truthful of iran Zoroaster,
truthful of Egypt Moses, truthful of Nazerah Messiah, truthful of
Panjab Nanak, truthful of all truthfuls from Arab
Muhammad---[(blessings on all of them) people in whom he was brought
up called him Sadiq ( the truthful) since his childhood]--- and all
the truthful of world in different era unanimously testified about
the existence of a God.
Yes, they did. And we can certainly grant the premise that they were
all trustworthy men. But that's no evidence that any of them were
saying what was true.
They all testified about the existence of a God. But they all
testified to the existence of a different God; and in addition they
testified to the existence of a unique God. If everything they said
was true, then there would be a number of Gods, each of which would be
the one and only God - which is contradictory and therefore absurd.
Therefore, it cannot be the case that every one of what these
trustworthy men were saying was true; it must be that some of them,
sometimes, said things about 'God' that were not true.
More than that, they testified to have honor to get His talk.
Because of what they testified, these truthful men were persecuted,
forced to leave homelands, boycotted, attempts were made on their
lives, they were not interested in worldly gains, they were proven
selfless.
They were strong in their beliefs. But that IMO should count as
evidence against these trustworthy men's truthfulness (whether what
they're saying is true or not). If someone is willing to endure
struggle and persecution for the sake of one of his beliefs, I'd trust
him in certain ways; but I would not trust him to dispassionately
criticize that belief, or even to imagine that it could be false.
Please compare prophets' lofty active-for-all-goodness-characters
with those of actionless-philosophers who taught people of truthfulness
but did not abstain from lies.
Ad hominem, plus what sounds like begging the question.
Surely prophets have had all credentials to be believed when they
claimed and testified about existence of a Unique God.
Law of testimony describes: if two persons of equal truthfulness
testify about a single matter. One testify about seeing a particular
thing ---- and the other person say, he has not seen that thing then
first person's testimony shall be accepted ( as it is possible that
second person did not look at the thing at all, but it is NOTpossible
the first person did not see and claim to have seen it ).
But all you've given is evidence of strong belief and (possibly)
trustworthiness; which as we've seen does not add up to 'truthfulness'.
Just the fact that the prophet was already a True Believer is
indication that his observations, and therefore his testimony, were
biased.
ARGUMENT- 3
Human nature (including that of great atheists), abhors certain acts.
Tongues may never admit but there, surely, exists an awe of a Super
Power in human minds which keep them away from certain acts.
From the fact that we 'abhor' certain acts, we conclude that we
shouldn't do them. But that's only a conclusion about our feelings,
not about what we should or should not do in fact. And a person's
feelings are not a sure guide to morality - beause there are people who
find some of those 'abhorrent' acts good things to do, and so do them.
The fact that we have feelings about morality is not a fact of -
doesn't give us any information about - morality.
Secondly, If there was no God, no power of distinguishing between good
and evil could have existed in human nature.
That's not true. The *prudential ideas of good - "what I should do,
considering whom I am and what I want" - and evil need nothing more
than an agent with beliefs about what he is, and preferences about what
he wants". For instance, because I want to do things, it's good for me
to stay alive; therefore it's good for me to eat food, and evil for me
to eat poison. Therefore it's good for someone else to supply me with
food to eat, and evil for them to supply me with poison to eat.
Notice that last are not prudential good and evil - since supplying me
with poison doesn't kill him, he has no prudential reason to consider
it evil. Rather, it's the idea of *moral good - "what any person
should do, irrespective of who he is or what he wants".
Thus we can distinguish between both prudential and moral good and evil
without relying on the postulate of a 'God' in any way.
But sense of distinguishing between goodness and evil is seeded in
human hearts. Self condemns upon wrong doing (no room for original sin
philosophy too!).
These compass like passions are planted by God , who exists.
Not at all. First, passionate beliefs are not the same thing as
morality, as morality would be only the set of true moral beliefs - and
since these passionate believers disagree on some beliefs, they can't
all be true (as that would be an absurdity) Second, even in cases
where a moral belief is true - where we in fact have moral knowledge -
we can explain having that knowledge without having to postulate a
'God.'
ARGUMENT- 4
Every act requires a doer-plus--As much as we track back the steps in
birth of human race, it seems weeker and weeker and contemptible.
Man is not creator of himself now when he is fully evolved, then how
could he be his own creator when he was not worth mentioning at initial
stage of his evilution..
Hence a creator made human.
It would be absurd to call man his own creator, except as poetry. But
that's not the alternative; the alternative is between some creators -
some agents intelligent and able enough to create the human species -
and no creator.
Creation leads to a Creator.
Creation logically requires a Creator; just as every act requires an
agent - but that only shows that words like 'Creator' and 'act' beg the
question completely.
However, this leads to your stronger argument below:
ARGUMENT - 5
Things which are made by mere chance are never organized.
Throwing colors on a paper do not make a well drawn picture. Systematic
universe could not be made by it self.
More organized a product is, greater is the Fashioner.
All demands are met; complementary components of the universe are
present according to the demand.
Here you're assuming that Order requires an Organizer ('Fashioner').
But we have ample evidence of spontaneous orders - orders that emerge
without organizers, and designs without designers. Languages are one
example; trade patterns are another. Nor is this only a matter of the
human world: stable ecosystems depend on a 'balance of nature' that
can be highly organized and complex; yet (while it could be, for the
sake of the arguments, that a 'God' created all the originals of the
lifeforms in the ecosystem) there's no evidence of a 'God', or any
other agent, organizing any particular ecosystem's details.
Human has intrinsic powers to progress. To let materialize their ideas,
complimentary wisdom and physical bodies are bestowed to them.
If lion is made to eat meaty prey, it is given the sharp nailed paws
which help in hunting.
Yes, but that's also fully explained without recourse to a designer, by
evolution. Lions have sharp claws, because lions without sharp claws
couldn't survive and reproduce. Humans can think about possibilities,
because humans who couldn't could not adapt to differing conditions or
adapt their conditions to them (and so similarly failed to reproduce).
Evolution explains the power to 'materialize ideas' (to imagine
possibilities and create them) as humanity's best survival trait.
Horse need grass on ground to graze. It is equipped with suitable neck.
It is not chance which gave the human his wisdom and a special body; no
chance has provided lion sharp nailed paws and no chance has provided a
horse a particular type of neck.
Evolution says nothing about chance. It gives a reason for lions with
claws, horses with necks, and men with minds - having those means
those life forms can survive and reproduce, and that they've done so
explains why there are such things around today.
Even IF evolution is credited for all complimentary developments, it is
brighter than sunshine that evolution was NOT blind too. (athiest might
be!)
[continued]
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: ALMIGHTY GOD EXITS --, 10 ARGUMENTS |
27 Nov 2006 09:15:37 AM |
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PPEACE wrote:
PEACE BE UPON YOU, YOUR ALL LOVED ONES AND ON ALL HUMANITY.
ALMIGHTY GOD EXISTS---TEN ARGUMENTS
In this era, denial of God is the ultimate attack upon theology by
materialistic minds.
Atheist demands: show the God.
Human uses five senses to identify various things.
Color can only be seen, not touched; sound cannot be seen, just heard;
smell of rose cannot be tasted, only smelled, so on and so forth.
There are things which cannot be sensed by five senses; eg, wisdom,
conscience, power, etc. These things can be only be recognized through
their effects.
Sure; gravity's another good example. Gravity can only be 'indirectly'
sensed - one can sense solid objects and what happens to them (they
fall down toward earth when they're not supported), which leads one to
postulate some force that makes them fall down, and call it 'gravity.'
More subtle the thing is, more less-directly sensible it is.
True; and the more easily one can go wrong. One learns about gravity,
for instance, by other sensory observations, such as: solid objects
don't always fall down - in spacecraft, they float in the air - which
is explained by the theory that that gravity is a force exerted by
solid objects, like the world, on small ones. However, to claim that
as truth would be leaping to a conclusion, since other theories explain
the same sensory evidence.
God is not seen with physical eyes; but can be recognized by His
omnipotent effects of His holy attributes. These attributes color the
canvas of the universe.
< Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is
Incomprehensible (Subtle), the All-Wise>. (Quran ch-6 v-104)
So, it is now clear that insisting upon seeing God with eyes is an
unrealistic demand.
The demand for evidence can be satisfied with either direct sensory
evidence, or valid reasoning based indirectly on sensory evidence.
ARGUMENT-1
In every nation and country of far past in history, when no modern ways
of communication were present and people did not know other places.
There always existed an idea of a supreme being(s) at each place
simaltaneously. Thousands of nations cannot have the idea of God(s)
unless they had been informed by certain way .
No, an alternative explanation for the evidence (which is good
evidence, BTW - we're talking about societies isolated on different
continents) is Plato's theory of the 'Noble Lie' - some people wish to
others to accept conclusions when they know they won't accept their
premises, so they tell those others a different set of premises, from
which the conclusions also follow.
And they were informed
by God himself.
That's not necessarily so. For instance, the same cultures that
evolved the idea of universal god(s) also evolved the idea of a supreme
earthly ruler, the 'Emperor'. But of course that's no evidence that
they were informed of that idea by the Emperor. 'God' may have
informed them of Emperors, of course, but it could just as easily be
that people simply made that idea up - in which case, they could as
easily have made 'God' up, as well.
ARGUMENT-2
People of high morals and characters are trustworthy in every nation
and time. Those people who never spoke a little lie in material
matters, when they testify about the existence of God then their this
testimony must be accepted too.
This argument has a hidden premise - "trustworthy people never tell
lies" - which looks counterfactual. In my own experience, identifying
people as 'trustworthy' means identifying what an individual can be
trusted on, and how far. For instance, I trust my lottery vendor to
never shortchange me; but I wouldn't trust him to, say, memorize your
arguments and repeat them back; if he insisted he could, I'd say he had
a false belief.
But even if that premise is allowed to go through, your argument still
fails, because it depends on a further premise - "whatever people who
never tell lies say, is true" which looks false by definition. Lying
is stating as true what one believes to be false; one can lie and still
say something that's true, and one can be honest and still say
something that's false.
(Good arguments, BTW - I'll try to get around to the rest of them.)
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: ALMIGHTY GOD EXITS --, 10 ARGUMENTS |
27 Nov 2006 09:16:13 AM |
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PPEACE wrote:
PEACE BE UPON YOU, YOUR ALL LOVED ONES AND ON ALL HUMANITY.
ALMIGHTY GOD EXISTS---TEN ARGUMENTS
In this era, denial of God is the ultimate attack upon theology by
materialistic minds.
Atheist demands: show the God.
Human uses five senses to identify various things.
Color can only be seen, not touched; sound cannot be seen, just heard;
smell of rose cannot be tasted, only smelled, so on and so forth.
There are things which cannot be sensed by five senses; eg, wisdom,
conscience, power, etc. These things can be only be recognized through
their effects.
Sure; gravity's another good example. Gravity can only be 'indirectly'
sensed - one can sense solid objects and what happens to them (they
fall down toward earth when they're not supported), which leads one to
postulate some force that makes them fall down, and call it 'gravity.'
More subtle the thing is, more less-directly sensible it is.
True; and the more easily one can go wrong. One learns about gravity,
for instance, by other sensory observations, such as: solid objects
don't always fall down - in spacecraft, they float in the air - which
is explained by the theory that that gravity is a force exerted by
solid objects, like the world, on small ones. However, to claim that
as truth would be leaping to a conclusion, since other theories explain
the same sensory evidence.
God is not seen with physical eyes; but can be recognized by His
omnipotent effects of His holy attributes. These attributes color the
canvas of the universe.
< Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is
Incomprehensible (Subtle), the All-Wise>. (Quran ch-6 v-104)
So, it is now clear that insisting upon seeing God with eyes is an
unrealistic demand.
The demand for evidence can be satisfied with either direct sensory
evidence, or valid reasoning based indirectly on sensory evidence.
ARGUMENT-1
In every nation and country of far past in history, when no modern ways
of communication were present and people did not know other places.
There always existed an idea of a supreme being(s) at each place
simaltaneously. Thousands of nations cannot have the idea of God(s)
unless they had been informed by certain way .
No, an alternative explanation for the evidence (which is good
evidence, BTW - we're talking about societies isolated on different
continents) is Plato's theory of the 'Noble Lie' - some people wish to
others to accept conclusions when they know they won't accept their
premises, so they tell those others a different set of premises, from
which the conclusions also follow.
And they were informed
by God himself.
That's not necessarily so. For instance, the same cultures that
evolved the idea of universal god(s) also evolved the idea of a supreme
earthly ruler, the 'Emperor'. But of course that's no evidence that
they were informed of that idea by the Emperor. 'God' may have
informed them of Emperors, of course, but it could just as easily be
that people simply made that idea up - in which case, they could as
easily have made 'God' up, as well.
ARGUMENT-2
People of high morals and characters are trustworthy in every nation
and time. Those people who never spoke a little lie in material
matters, when they testify about the existence of God then their this
testimony must be accepted too.
This argument has a hidden premise - "trustworthy people never tell
lies" - which looks counterfactual. In my own experience, identifying
people as 'trustworthy' means identifying what an individual can be
trusted on, and how far. For instance, I trust my lottery vendor to
never shortchange me; but I wouldn't trust him to, say, memorize your
arguments and repeat them back; if he insisted he could, I'd say he had
a false belief.
But even if that premise is allowed to go through, your argument still
fails, because it depends on a further premise - "whatever people who
never tell lies say, is true" which looks false by definition. Lying
is stating as true what one believes to be false; one can lie and still
say something that's true, and one can be honest and still say
something that's false.
(Good arguments, BTW - I'll try to get around to the rest of them.)
.
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: ALMIGHTY GOD EXITS --, 10 ARGUMENTS |
27 Nov 2006 11:08:37 AM |
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PPEACE wrote:
PEACE BE UPON YOU, YOUR ALL LOVED ONES AND ON ALL HUMANITY.
ALMIGHTY GOD EXISTS---TEN ARGUMENTS
snip
ARGUMENT- 8
<And when my servants ask thee about Me, (say): I am near. I answer the
prayer of the supplicant when he prays to Me. So they should hearken to
Me and believe in Me, that they may follow the right way >. Quraan ch-2
v-187
Acceptance of prayer is direct poof of presence of God.
But one may object and say: by chance some matters are resolved while
others not .
Yes, that plus the fact that believers (in anything), when they see
only evidence that supports their belief, may be having their
observations skewed by pre-existing evidence.
In this era, Promised in all religions Revivor and Reformer ( 1889 @
ww.alislam.org ) accepted this challenge humbly and trustly upon God.
He suggested :
Two groups of very sick patients could be brought ; one group could
get medical treatment and for other he would pray.
This was a very open challenge.
He called and re-taught the world about this forgotten mercy of
God----acceptance of prayers.
In fact prayers till today are being answered as God is ever present.
But we've seen examples of that very situation - children of Jehovah's
Witnesses and Christian Scientists who die because their parents prefer
prayer to medical treatment. Perhaps their prayers are inefficacious
because they're praying to a false 'God' - however, that's only
evidence that some concepts of 'God' are false, and not that any are
true.
ARGUMENT-9
Revelation is the great conclusive argument.
<Allah strengthens the believers with the word that is firmly
established, in the present life and in the Hereafter>. (Quraan ch-14
v-28)
In all era, God has spoken to many people.
He has been speaking, not only, with the prophets but with His pious
humble friends (holy people). Seeds of true dreams are present in
humanity as argument; Revelation is the most refined form of true
dreams.
One can reasonably say nothing about revelation - as 'revelation' is
postulated as a means of acquiring knowledge without reason, and
independently of reason - except:
It's not reasonable that any claims based on 'revelation' are true,
unless (1) one has had the same revelation himself (which I and, I
suspect, most of us alive today have not), or (2) the claims are also
reasonable - they can be independently supported by reason - in which
case the 'revelation' is entirely superfluous.
Through relvelation and dreams, God foretells events of near and far
future.
For example, in Torah and Quraan , prophecies about the christainity
related material progresses are mentioned, in short and in details,
which has become true.
That's often a matter of 'interpretation,' which is at least as prone
to bias as sensory observation.
Quraan prophesied nearly 1500 years ago about a particular era:
<And when the she-cammels, ten month pregnant, are abandoned. >
Quraan ch-81 v-5
Ours are times, when because of railway service and other modern
transportations camels are not in travel service as they used to be in
past.
But, you see, that phrase could mean anything; it's solely a matter of
'interpretation' to think that it's saying that camels will ceased to
be used for transportation.
Quraan does contain a revelation; < And when books are spread abroad>
Quraan ch-81 v-11
Our times is the time of fast spread of books worldwide.
Also Quraan foretold; < On the day when quaking shall quake and a
second (quaking) shall follow it. > Quraan ch-79.v-7,8
These words forecasted unusually high frequency of earth quakes and
calamities in this era:
STATISTICS:
=in previous 1100 years = 11 big earthquakes (50000 plus deaths each)
=BUT in last 100 years = 13 major quakes!
It's unfair to count 'big' or 'major' quakes in terms of deaths; given
the fantastic growth of population in the last 100 years, one would
expect more deaths even if the rate and severity of quakes stayed the
same. This looks like a case of unconsious bias at the methodological
level.
= wars from year 1900 to 2000 = 95 million deaths
= year 2001 to 2005 = 5 major destructions in world
Again, the larger death tolls can be accounted for by the larger number
of people living at the time. The 30 Years' War killed a higher
percentage of Germans than WWII, for instance - though in WWII a much
greater number of Germans died. .
REASON. (spiritual angle), these sudden high numbers in miseries is
promised Divine reminder.
1) Now people have forgotten God and 2) they commit bad deeds upto
the last limits and 3) at the same time there is a call from Promised
Divine Reformer ( ww.alislam.org ); he is denied; these factors
attracts the shaking warnings from earth and sky.
= for peace, let us hear and act upon what God says and purify hearts,
give right to God; right to people, clean up bad emotions; daily
tearful prayers; noble usage of natural laws.
COMING BACK TO OUR ARGUMENT:
In islam, during each century, true followers has been blessed with
divine revelations. Through them are shown the live signs of Omnipotent
Willful God.
But, as we've seen so have 'false followers' - those who believed in
different 'Gods' from each other, some of which (by the earlier
reduction ad absurdum) must be false beliefs.
The Promised Appointed Servant of God for peace appeared humbly in an
obscure town of subcontinent India in 1880s, unknown to the world and
God revelead to him as forecast:
<From each route people shall come to thee, and their coming in large
numbers shall deepen the paths. Those people shall help you whose
hearts, We(God) shall inspire. Then not you be unmindful to visitors
and not you get tired of meeting them>.( translation-sense: Braheen e
Ahmadiyya 1881 p-241).
In his life time, visitor reached to him from all over the world, to
get his blessings.
Now his message of peace with God and peace with humanity has spread
in 185 countries with 200 plus million followings, by the grace of God
( ww.alislam.org ww.mta.tv ww.ahmadiyya.org.uk ww.ahmadiyya.us
ww.ahmadiyya.ca ww.ahmadiyya.org.au ww.ahmadiyya.de
ww.islamahmadiyya.net (arby) plus.........)
Revelation descended upon him, and he continued to excel. Now his 5th
successor in office continues his work with the help of Allah-the
Almighty.
ARGUMENT -10
This argument is derived from :
<And those who strive in Our paths---we will surely guide them in Our
ways...> Quraan ch-29 v-70
People always are benefited from the message of this verse.
Anyone who denies God must think: if there is God, then to find truth
about Him will definitely require lot of struggle.
If such person has hearty desire to know the truth, he or she should
pray with zeal:
< O Lord, if You exists, and if you are--The One with Unlimited Powers,
as Your believers describe, have mercy upon me and show me the path
towards You, and fill my heart with surety and believe so that I do not
remain a loser >.
If someone will pray like this with true heart for at least 40 days
then no matter in which religion he or she was born and no matter which
country they belong to, Lord and Sustainer of all universes will surely
bless them with righteousness and will prove to them His presence in a
way that dirt of all doubts shall be washed.
This is the doubtless way to get decision on this matter.
Is it difficult to act upon for truth seekers??
since you're proposing an experiment, and not stating an argument, I'll
have to refrain from comment on that idea for at least 40 days.
However, I'll note that you're saying only that the experiment must run
at least 40 days, but not how much longer than that that it has to run.
There's no indication, to the person who receives nothing in 40 days,
or nothing in 365 days, or nothing in 20 years, that he can stop the
experiment and reach a conclusion. In short, there's no way for the
hypothesis (that there is such a 'God') to be shown false by the
experiment as you've described it.
May these words reach to all.
~~ O ~~
snip
IF THERE IS NO GOD, THERE IS NO PEACE. THAT IS THE ULTIMATE WISDOM.
THANK YOU.
Thank you for your willingness to reasonably discuss the topic.
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