| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Pez" |
| Date: |
06 Dec 2005 09:04:52 PM |
| Object: |
Are more material things better |
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
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| User: "tooly" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
06 Dec 2005 11:58:40 PM |
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"Pez" <email@er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9724E29F9306Aemailercom@66.150.105.47...
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
Good line of thought for discussion I think. I've often thought about
wealth...and what exactly it does accomplish. Most people in western
societies have 'doodads' up the bunghole...enough to feel rotting from
inside. And yet, we want more it seems.
Or do we.
As I have studied myself and my own motivations, I've realized that it was
not 'things' I pursued in life, but the intangibles that 'things'
accompanied. Wealth essentially gave me 'choices' in life...FREEDOM. And I
suppose, security too if one wants to look in that direction.
FREEDOM and SECURITY...the two main pursuits of humankind. Having more
material things translates into more CHOICES for these.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
07 Dec 2005 02:04:09 AM |
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Of course it is what we think materialism will accomplish.
Another perspective on your views.
"Freedom's Just Another Word For Nothing Less To Lose"
So often the wealthy are prisoners of their own creation, and they feel
insecure because they have so much to lose.
A lot depends on how they aquired their wealth.
BOfL
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| User: "Edgar Svendsen" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
06 Dec 2005 09:52:14 PM |
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"Pez" <email@er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9724E29F9306Aemailercom@66.150.105.47...
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
It depends on more than what? If you have no material things, no food, no
shelter, then haveing more might well make you a better person, in isolation
or not. If you have one book, haveing more books might make you a better
person, if you read them.
Ed
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| User: "Tim" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 01:06:20 PM |
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"Pez" <email@er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9724E29F9306Aemailercom@66.150.105.47...
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
The things you own end up owning you. - Tyler Durden.
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| User: "Wordsmith" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 01:10:36 PM |
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"Those who own little," goes an old saying, "are little owned."
W : )
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
07 Dec 2005 07:11:02 PM |
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Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what you've
got that's important. Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
Scott
"Pez" <email@er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9724E29F9306Aemailercom@66.150.105.47...
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
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| User: "Seeker" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
07 Dec 2005 09:06:04 PM |
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"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what you've
got that's important.
Are you referring to "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one
you're with."?
Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
Scott
"Pez" <email@er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9724E29F9306Aemailercom@66.150.105.47...
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 03:18:29 PM |
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"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:11pf8ossiqg4r13@news.supernews.com...
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what
you've
got that's important.
Are you referring to "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one
you're with."?
Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
Why would I want something if their acquisition makes no difference to my
happiness? Just because its something to do, perhaps?
Scott
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 07:05:11 PM |
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"Befor enlightenment, carry water, chop wood"...you know the rest :-)
BOfL
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
09 Dec 2005 05:21:34 AM |
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All those old Chinese guys sure were smart alecks. They would never just
straight out tell you that carrying water and chopping wood was
enlightenment.
Scott
<brianf@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:1134090311.251519.138680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
"Befor enlightenment, carry water, chop wood"...you know the rest :-)
BOfL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
09 Dec 2005 08:37:46 PM |
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Thats because "it wasn't so"..
BOfL
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| User: "Seeker" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 07:25:06 PM |
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"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what
you've
got that's important.
Are you referring to "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one
you're with."?
Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
Why would I want something if their acquisition makes no difference to my
happiness? Just because its something to do, perhaps?
A desire for pleasure, comforts or conveniences, *without* having your
happiness contingent on them. The idea is that attempting to derive one's
happiness through pleasure, comforts and conveniences is a treadmill. Ever
notice how that new car only feels great for about a month, then you're
stuck with the payments for years?
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
09 Dec 2005 05:24:45 AM |
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"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:11phn7i3hpgnr26@news.supernews.com...
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what
you've
got that's important.
Are you referring to "If you can't be with the one you love, love the
one
you're with."?
Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to
want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
Why would I want something if their acquisition makes no difference to
my
happiness? Just because its something to do, perhaps?
A desire for pleasure, comforts or conveniences, *without* having your
happiness contingent on them. The idea is that attempting to derive one's
happiness through pleasure, comforts and conveniences is a treadmill. Ever
notice how that new car only feels great for about a month, then you're
stuck with the payments for years?
But you are stuck with payments when you first buy the car, too.
Happiness is a state of mind. Its a perception. If I desire creature
comforts I do not have, and that makes me happy, then I am happy because of
my desire. I am not sure I can think of a desire that is not motivated by a
need for gratification. The two concepts seem to be contingent.
Scott
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| User: "Seeker" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
09 Dec 2005 03:13:00 PM |
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"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote in message
news:NPdmf.4429$Eu3.266@fe07.lga...
"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:11phn7i3hpgnr26@news.supernews.com...
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what
you've
got that's important.
Are you referring to "If you can't be with the one you love, love the
one
you're with."?
Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to
want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
Why would I want something if their acquisition makes no difference to
my
happiness? Just because its something to do, perhaps?
A desire for pleasure, comforts or conveniences, *without* having your
happiness contingent on them. The idea is that attempting to derive one's
happiness through pleasure, comforts and conveniences is a treadmill.
Ever
notice how that new car only feels great for about a month, then you're
stuck with the payments for years?
But you are stuck with payments when you first buy the car, too.
Of course, but you don't notice it because you are still experiencing the
rush of pleasure from owning something new. You have invested your happiness
in the attainment of some new toy and you are still receiving the payoff.
With some shopaholics, the rush wears off as soon as the item is brought
home. In the case of gambling or drug addicts, needing the next fix is
always right around the corner.
Happiness is a state of mind. Its a perception. If I desire creature
comforts I do not have, and that makes me happy, then I am happy because
of
my desire.
Did you mean what you said? In the undesirable scenario wishing for things
that one does not have evokes a state of feeling dissatisfied with one's
present situation. That's not happiness.
I am not sure I can think of a desire that is not motivated by a
need for gratification. The two concepts seem to be contingent.
There's a critical distinction to be made between desire and need,
preference and addiction. I may desire a BMW without investing my happiness
in getting one. I may wish to be a scratch golfer and work hard to that end,
but I do not need to be "unhappy" because I'm not. I probably never will be,
therefore I derive enjoyment from the game, the process, the camaraderie.
I can want something while being happy with what I have. Happiness in that
case is something apart from gratification of desires, it's something you
bring to the table with your own wisdom and spirit.
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
10 Dec 2005 09:55:34 AM |
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"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:11pjsqs2joqmn03@news.supernews.com...
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote in message
news:NPdmf.4429$Eu3.266@fe07.lga...
"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:11phn7i3hpgnr26@news.supernews.com...
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting
what
you've
got that's important.
Are you referring to "If you can't be with the one you love, love
the
one
you're with."?
Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to
want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
Why would I want something if their acquisition makes no difference
to
my
happiness? Just because its something to do, perhaps?
A desire for pleasure, comforts or conveniences, *without* having your
happiness contingent on them. The idea is that attempting to derive
one's
happiness through pleasure, comforts and conveniences is a treadmill.
Ever
notice how that new car only feels great for about a month, then you're
stuck with the payments for years?
But you are stuck with payments when you first buy the car, too.
Of course, but you don't notice it because you are still experiencing the
rush of pleasure from owning something new. You have invested your
happiness
in the attainment of some new toy and you are still receiving the payoff.
With some shopaholics, the rush wears off as soon as the item is brought
home. In the case of gambling or drug addicts, needing the next fix is
always right around the corner.
Happiness is a state of mind. Its a perception. If I desire creature
comforts I do not have, and that makes me happy, then I am happy because
of
my desire.
Did you mean what you said? In the undesirable scenario wishing for things
that one does not have evokes a state of feeling dissatisfied with one's
present situation. That's not happiness.
I am not sure I can think of a desire that is not motivated by a
need for gratification. The two concepts seem to be contingent.
There's a critical distinction to be made between desire and need,
preference and addiction. I may desire a BMW without investing my
happiness
in getting one. I may wish to be a scratch golfer and work hard to that
end,
but I do not need to be "unhappy" because I'm not. I probably never will
be,
therefore I derive enjoyment from the game, the process, the camaraderie.
I can want something while being happy with what I have. Happiness in that
case is something apart from gratification of desires, it's something you
bring to the table with your own wisdom and spirit.
If I have a goal of being a scratch golfer, I may never attain it, as you
suggested, yet I still take pleasure in trying to do that, every time I golf
(assuming I am having a good day!). I have the desire to shoot par, nad
that desire is mine, present everytime I tee off. Because it is mine, it is
part of each of my games, and part of my "career" golf game, so to speak.
The desire is contingent on the activities that I pursue on relation to the
objext opf my desire. In this sense, the path is part of a goal that I
admit I may never reach, but he desire is part and parcel of the journey.
Scott
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| User: "Seeker" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
10 Dec 2005 03:01:44 PM |
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"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
I can want something while being happy with what I have. Happiness in
that
case is something apart from gratification of desires, it's something you
bring to the table with your own wisdom and spirit.
If I have a goal of being a scratch golfer, I may never attain it, as you
suggested, yet I still take pleasure in trying to do that, every time I
golf
(assuming I am having a good day!). I have the desire to shoot par, nad
that desire is mine, present everytime I tee off. Because it is mine, it
is
part of each of my games, and part of my "career" golf game, so to speak.
The desire is contingent on the activities that I pursue on relation to
the
objext opf my desire. In this sense, the path is part of a goal that I
admit I may never reach, but he desire is part and parcel of the journey.
Agreed, the principle is not eliminate the desire, it's to connect it
specifically to the attainment of that goal, not to one's happiness or inner
peace. In that context the pressure is off, reaching a goal gives it's own
satisfaction or pleasure. If I have a good round I am happy and at peace AND
pleased with my game while having a beer after the game. If I have a poor
game I am happy and at peace but not pleased with my game on the 19th. These
principles I don't think apply to basic desires like the desire for food and
shelter for one's family..
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
10 Dec 2005 03:36:27 PM |
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"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:11pmghmq32c4678@news.supernews.com...
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
I can want something while being happy with what I have. Happiness in
that
case is something apart from gratification of desires, it's something
you
bring to the table with your own wisdom and spirit.
If I have a goal of being a scratch golfer, I may never attain it, as
you
suggested, yet I still take pleasure in trying to do that, every time I
golf
(assuming I am having a good day!). I have the desire to shoot par, nad
that desire is mine, present everytime I tee off. Because it is mine,
it
is
part of each of my games, and part of my "career" golf game, so to
speak.
The desire is contingent on the activities that I pursue on relation to
the
objext opf my desire. In this sense, the path is part of a goal that I
admit I may never reach, but he desire is part and parcel of the
journey.
Agreed, the principle is not eliminate the desire, it's to connect it
specifically to the attainment of that goal, not to one's happiness or
inner
peace. In that context the pressure is off, reaching a goal gives it's own
satisfaction or pleasure. If I have a good round I am happy and at peace
AND
pleased with my game while having a beer after the game. If I have a poor
game I am happy and at peace but not pleased with my game on the 19th.
These
principles I don't think apply to basic desires like the desire for food
and
shelter for one's family..
See, we are getting into different flavours of desire now. What is a good
Zen Buddhist to do, except chop more wood?
BTW: Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else that ultimately,
philosophical discussions, if they go on long enough, come down to differing
definitions of the terms we use to communicate ideas to each other? I think
this may why many do not have much patience for epistemology. If I spend
all of my time arguing about the meaning of knowledge, how can I ever get to
a point where we can agree that we know anything?
Scott
Scott
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
09 Dec 2005 09:07:05 PM |
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One cannot get resolution looking at such scenarios "wholistically".
My legs get stimulated when I go for a run. My "anticipation" body ,
gets satisfaction at the expectation of the results of regular running.
My Porche nature gets a kick out of seeing a 928GTS (champaign color)
going by.
(I'm currently looking for one. I enjoy looking also).
I am, therefor I choose, recognise, anticipate and celebrate.
BOfL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
09 Dec 2005 05:30:16 AM |
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Seeker skrev:
A desire for pleasure, comforts or conveniences, *without* having your
happiness contingent on them. The idea is that attempting to derive one's
happiness through pleasure, comforts and conveniences is a treadmill. Ever
notice how that new car only feels great for about a month, then you're
stuck with the payments for years?
But perhaps you've displaced desires into this idea of a car or been
manipulated into thinking that the car is what you desire. The
treadmill as you call it between instances of wonderful lovemaking is
not a treadmill for me. I desire often to go out in nature and when I
do I generally derive satisfaction I do not have to pay for later, as
in your example. I think most people are rather poor at 1) discerning
their desires 2) allowing them to be satisfied (without guilt) 3)
learning from their experiences with their desires and desired
experiences and their aftermath.
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| User: "Seeker" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
09 Dec 2005 03:26:58 PM |
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<longjearns@yahoo.com> wrote
Seeker skrev:
A desire for pleasure, comforts or conveniences, *without* having your
happiness contingent on them. The idea is that attempting to derive one's
happiness through pleasure, comforts and conveniences is a treadmill.
Ever
notice how that new car only feels great for about a month, then you're
stuck with the payments for years?
But perhaps you've displaced desires into this idea of a car or been
manipulated into thinking that the car is what you desire.
If a car is what you are thinking about and wanting then by definition
that's what you desire. You may well have been manipulated, of course,
that's part of the problem. We are manipulated by outside influences to want
and therefore to consume ever more.
The
treadmill as you call it between instances of wonderful lovemaking is
not a treadmill for me.
I never said that desire itself was bad, I said that desire is
self-defeating if you allow your happiness to be contingent on the
gratification of those desires. I would submit that if you have a good sex
life that you enter into those sessions with a sense of mutual joy and a
desire to please another person. The pleasure derived from satisfaction of
desires is wonderful as long as you don't confuse it with happiness.
I desire often to go out in nature and when I
do I generally derive satisfaction I do not have to pay for later, as
in your example.
Then you you have not made the mistake of allowing your happiness to be
contingent on being out in nature, you carry it along with you everywhere
you go.
Your trips into nature and lovemaking become joyful experiences if you don't
load them down with the baggage of your own inner discontent.
I think most people are rather poor at 1) discerning
their desires 2) allowing them to be satisfied (without guilt) 3)
learning from their experiences with their desires and desired
experiences and their aftermath.
I can't argue with that. I think desires are a poorly understood part of our
being.
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 03:17:01 PM |
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"Seeker" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:11pf8ossiqg4r13@news.supernews.com...
"Miller" <chumley702@chartermi.net> wrote
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what
you've
got that's important.
Are you referring to "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one
you're with."?
Well, that's another one. But I was thinking of a popular Sheryl Crow song
from about a year back. The sense of either is that wanting is an endless
occupation if there is always something else that I want. It is also very
easy for me to want those things I do not have. On the other hand, there is
more of a trick to being satisfied with what you already have, to the point
where a desire for attatchemnt to more things is no longer an issue.
Scott
Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
Scott
"Pez" <email@er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9724E29F9306Aemailercom@66.150.105.47...
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 07:52:17 AM |
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Seeker wrote:
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
I guess that explains why I'm having so many problems.
All I want is happiness and am willing to give up all else
to atain it. Is the reification of a state of mind a thing?
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| User: "Dutch" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 01:53:24 PM |
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<forbisgaryg@msn.com> wrote
Seeker wrote:
I take the thrust of Eastern philosophy to be that it's all right to want
things as long your happiness doesn't depend on getting them.
I guess that explains why I'm having so many problems.
All I want is happiness and am willing to give up all else
to atain it. Is the reification of a state of mind a thing?
I wouldn't say so, neither is a state of mind an external "thing" in this
context. State of mind is generated from within oneself, so assuming one has
no serious chemical imbalances, or egregious physical circumstances, a state
of "happiness" is attainable without external help. I think the materialist
idea that the next better "thing", promotion, team win, bigger TV, car,
girlfriend, will make us happy is hard to shake. Have you ever been taken
aback by a quadriplegic who seemed to radiate joy? They have by necessity
lost the notion that will ever attain any physical success.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
07 Dec 2005 11:20:59 PM |
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Well said. Another way of describing mastership of materialism.
BOfL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
07 Dec 2005 08:45:17 PM |
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Desiring something actually produces a gap between the desirer and the
object of desire.
Quantum science actually confirms this, as it does with many so called
"eastern philosophies.
Yoda touched on that principle in Star Wars, were he informed Skywalker
"There is no try. Just do or dont do"
Clever little puppet :-)
BOfL
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 03:14:17 PM |
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<brianf@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:1134005792.147931.56320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Desiring something actually produces a gap between the desirer and the
object of desire.
Quantum science actually confirms this, as it does with many so called
"eastern philosophies.
Yoda touched on that principle in Star Wars, were he informed Skywalker
"There is no try. Just do or dont do"
Clever little puppet :-)
BOfL
I believe Frank Oz was drunk when he said that line though...
Scott
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
07 Dec 2005 08:42:47 PM |
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If you apply the principle of "quantum" understanding, it makes more
sense of the suggestion "desiring something creates a wider distance
between the person and the object of their desire.
A psychsomatic example would be non allergic asthma.
BOfL
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| User: "tg" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
07 Dec 2005 08:45:09 PM |
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Miller wrote:
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what you've
got that's important. Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
What about wanting to stop wanting?
:<>
-tg
Scott
"Pez" <email@er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9724E29F9306Aemailercom@66.150.105.47...
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
08 Dec 2005 03:12:28 PM |
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In general, I would say that to desire a thing object creates a pretty
tangeble connection to it. Unfortunately, this is exactly what leads to
more wanting. Desire is satisfied and I realize that I like the feeling. I
desire something else in the hope that I can have that feeling again. This
can be most clearly seen in an addict such as those who have trouble with
gambling.
Scott
"tg" <tgdenning@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1134005727.022572.96370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Miller wrote:
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what
you've
got that's important. Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
What about wanting to stop wanting?
:<>
-tg
Scott
"Pez" <email@er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9724E29F9306Aemailercom@66.150.105.47...
Is having more material things what makes a person better?
Isn't most of haveing more just a personal expression?
Would having more make a person better if they lived in isolation?
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| User: "S2" |
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| Title: Re: Are more material things better |
07 Dec 2005 09:19:30 PM |
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tg wrote:
Miller wrote:
Like the song says, its not getting what you want, but wanting what you've
got that's important. Wanting can only lead to more wanting. I guess I
agree with some Eastern philosphies on this.
What about wanting to stop wanting?
:<>
-tg
Actually, in Buddhism desire is not the problem. It is the attachment
to desire that is. What we need to do is stop wanting identification
with desire. Desire is quite natural. Attachment is a trick of the
ego.
Stu
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