| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"ta" |
| Date: |
28 Jul 2004 09:54:26 PM |
| Object: |
Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
What a crock of shite . . .
"Federal Reserve Bank Says 'Belief in Hell' Boosts Economic Growth"
Alister Bull, Reuters News Service
WASHINGTON - Economists searching for reasons why some nations are richer
than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell are less
corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the Federal Reserve
Bank of St. Louis.
Researchers at the regional Federal Reserve bank acknowledged the importance
of productivity and investment in the economic process but looked at some
recent unconventional efforts to explain differences in national prosperity.
The St Louis Fed drew on work by outside economists who studied 35
countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India and
Turkey and found that religion shed some useful light.
"In countries where where large percentages of the population believe in
hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living,"
the St. Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.
For instance, 71 percent of the U.S. population believe in hell and the
country boasts the world's highest per capita income, according to the 2003
United Nations Human Development Report and 1990-1993 World Values Survey.
Ireland, not far behind the United States in terms of income, likewise has a
healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population
acknowledging hell's existence.
"I'm not surprised," said the Rev. Eileen Lindner, deputy general secretary
of the U.S. National Council of Churches, when told of the results.
"The expectation that there is a cultural belief in hell or perpetual and
eternal punishment for wrongdoing will act as a disincentive to wrongdoing,"
she said.
The St Louis Fed's researchers took a two-step approach to linking religion
and the economy.
"A belief in hell tends to mean less corruption and less corruption tends to
mean a higher per capita income," they wrote. It correlated the belief in
hell findings of the World Value Series with a measure of corruption
produced by Transparency International.
It then looked at the relationship between corruption and per capita gross
domestic product and found "a strong tendency for countries with relatively
low levels of corruption to have relatively high levels of per capita GDP."
"Combining these two stories ... suggests that, all else being equal, the
more religious a country, the less corruption it will have and the higher
its per capita income will be."
The researchers also noted the long tradition among classical economists to
equate a society's honesty, and the strength of the rule of law, with
economic vitality.
"Adam Smith wrote that one of religion's most important contributions to the
economic development process is its value as a moral enforcement mechanism,"
they said.
Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan offered a contemporary echo of this view,
arguing in a speech earlier this year that modern business still relies on
the word of those with whom it deals as he slammed the recent run of
corporate governance scandals in the United States for eroding that trust.
None of which cut any ice with nonbelievers.
Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study the
latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up government
support.
"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they do so
they turn to other things," she said.
"I cannot imagine what the belief in mythological beings or things that
don't exist can do for business. What about the pornographic industry? That
is probably very good for growth."
The St Louis Fed's essay "Fear of Hell Might Fire Up The Economy" can be
found here.
http://tinyurl.com/6cgom
.
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| User: "R. Gregg Reed" |
|
| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
28 Jul 2004 10:20:45 PM |
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"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
"Federal Reserve Bank Says 'Belief in Hell' Boosts Economic Growth"
Alister Bull, Reuters News Service
WASHINGTON - Economists searching for reasons why some nations are
richer than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell
are less corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the
Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
Researchers at the regional Federal Reserve bank acknowledged the
importance of productivity and investment in the economic process but
looked at some recent unconventional efforts to explain differences in
national prosperity.
The St Louis Fed drew on work by outside economists who studied 35
countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India
and Turkey and found that religion shed some useful light.
"In countries where where large percentages of the population believe
in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of
living," the St. Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.
For instance, 71 percent of the U.S. population believe in hell and
the country boasts the world's highest per capita income, according to
the 2003 United Nations Human Development Report and 1990-1993 World
Values Survey.
Ireland, not far behind the United States in terms of income, likewise
has a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population
acknowledging hell's existence.
"I'm not surprised," said the Rev. Eileen Lindner, deputy general
secretary of the U.S. National Council of Churches, when told of the
results.
"The expectation that there is a cultural belief in hell or perpetual
and eternal punishment for wrongdoing will act as a disincentive to
wrongdoing," she said.
The St Louis Fed's researchers took a two-step approach to linking
religion and the economy.
"A belief in hell tends to mean less corruption and less corruption
tends to mean a higher per capita income," they wrote. It correlated
the belief in hell findings of the World Value Series with a measure
of corruption produced by Transparency International.
It then looked at the relationship between corruption and per capita
gross domestic product and found "a strong tendency for countries with
relatively low levels of corruption to have relatively high levels of
per capita GDP."
"Combining these two stories ... suggests that, all else being equal,
the more religious a country, the less corruption it will have and the
higher its per capita income will be."
The researchers also noted the long tradition among classical
economists to equate a society's honesty, and the strength of the rule
of law, with economic vitality.
"Adam Smith wrote that one of religion's most important contributions
to the economic development process is its value as a moral
enforcement mechanism," they said.
Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan offered a contemporary echo of this view,
arguing in a speech earlier this year that modern business still
relies on the word of those with whom it deals as he slammed the
recent run of corporate governance scandals in the United States for
eroding that trust.
None of which cut any ice with nonbelievers.
Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study
the latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up
government support.
"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they
do so they turn to other things," she said.
"I cannot imagine what the belief in mythological beings or things
that don't exist can do for business. What about the pornographic
industry? That is probably very good for growth."
The St Louis Fed's essay "Fear of Hell Might Fire Up The Economy" can
be found here.
http://tinyurl.com/6cgom
.
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| User: "ta" |
|
| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
29 Jul 2004 02:22:30 PM |
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"R. Gregg Reed" <rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote in message news:<h2_Nc.19619$m63.5519@animal.nntpserver.com>...
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because it's logically fallacious (post hoc) . . . the author has not
established a causal relationhip between fear of hell and economic
prosperity. Because one thing follows another does not necessarily
imply cause. There are obviously a whole host of more reasonable
explanations for the prosperity in the examples he cited.
Because the implication (based on faulty data to start with) is that
fear is the primary motivator for humans. While I don't doubt that
fear can motivate, the underlying message is that it is a desirable
thing to scare people into behaving "morally" (as if we can't point to
endless corruption in the catholic church for example). The underlying
assumptions of this kind of philosophy are very cynical - i.e., that
we are incapable of hearing the truth and acting accordingly. We don't
need more fear and lies; we need more honesty and understanding.
Sorry, I don't buy this "man is inherently evil" *****, although it
has suited the religious ideologues well over the centuries.
I'm reminded of the old cult film "reefer madness", where a whole host
of lies and half-truths are told about marijuana in order to scare
them into abstaining. It obviously doesn't work. The same sort of
nonsense is pushed by the religious right on sex education: scare them
into abstaining from sex, rather than provide them with honest
information.
"Federal Reserve Bank Says 'Belief in Hell' Boosts Economic Growth"
Alister Bull, Reuters News Service
WASHINGTON - Economists searching for reasons why some nations are
richer than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell
are less corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the
Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
Researchers at the regional Federal Reserve bank acknowledged the
importance of productivity and investment in the economic process but
looked at some recent unconventional efforts to explain differences in
national prosperity.
The St Louis Fed drew on work by outside economists who studied 35
countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India
and Turkey and found that religion shed some useful light.
"In countries where where large percentages of the population believe
in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of
living," the St. Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.
For instance, 71 percent of the U.S. population believe in hell and
the country boasts the world's highest per capita income, according to
the 2003 United Nations Human Development Report and 1990-1993 World
Values Survey.
Ireland, not far behind the United States in terms of income, likewise
has a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population
acknowledging hell's existence.
"I'm not surprised," said the Rev. Eileen Lindner, deputy general
secretary of the U.S. National Council of Churches, when told of the
results.
"The expectation that there is a cultural belief in hell or perpetual
and eternal punishment for wrongdoing will act as a disincentive to
wrongdoing," she said.
The St Louis Fed's researchers took a two-step approach to linking
religion and the economy.
"A belief in hell tends to mean less corruption and less corruption
tends to mean a higher per capita income," they wrote. It correlated
the belief in hell findings of the World Value Series with a measure
of corruption produced by Transparency International.
It then looked at the relationship between corruption and per capita
gross domestic product and found "a strong tendency for countries with
relatively low levels of corruption to have relatively high levels of
per capita GDP."
"Combining these two stories ... suggests that, all else being equal,
the more religious a country, the less corruption it will have and the
higher its per capita income will be."
The researchers also noted the long tradition among classical
economists to equate a society's honesty, and the strength of the rule
of law, with economic vitality.
"Adam Smith wrote that one of religion's most important contributions
to the economic development process is its value as a moral
enforcement mechanism," they said.
Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan offered a contemporary echo of this view,
arguing in a speech earlier this year that modern business still
relies on the word of those with whom it deals as he slammed the
recent run of corporate governance scandals in the United States for
eroding that trust.
None of which cut any ice with nonbelievers.
Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study
the latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up
government support.
"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they
do so they turn to other things," she said.
"I cannot imagine what the belief in mythological beings or things
that don't exist can do for business. What about the pornographic
industry? That is probably very good for growth."
The St Louis Fed's essay "Fear of Hell Might Fire Up The Economy" can
be found here.
http://tinyurl.com/6cgom
.
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| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
28 Jul 2004 11:06:12 PM |
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
28 Jul 2004 11:15:19 PM |
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"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
Maybe it only works with a "Protestant Hell" and not the Catholic or Muslim one.
.
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| User: "S.A.Joyce" |
|
| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
31 Aug 2004 07:04:44 AM |
|
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"Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tPadnU60Ooax55XcRVn-rw@comcast.com...
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
Maybe it only works with a "Protestant Hell" and not the Catholic or
Muslim one.
It's hard to guess where they might have chosen to dig up their data,
since generally available evidence would seem to indicate the contrary.
As already mentioned, while heavily Catholic Latin America has
noticeable pockets of prosperity, it is largely dominated by poverty.
Same for the heavily Muslim Middle East.
On the other side of the ledger, I'm not aware that Hell-belief is a
major component of Shinto or Buddhism, the primary religions of
prosperous Japan. In Europe, moderately to decreasingly religious
Sweden and Switzerland enjoy high standards of living, while at the
center of the Roman Catholic sphere Italy has been in economic turmoil
for as long as anyone can remember. And if we examine regions within
the U.S. itself, we find that the regions most receptive to
hellfire-and-brimstone religion (Deep South, Appalachia, and Middle
West) are also the most economically lethargic.
Not that I suppose religion is the only, or even a major, factor, but
the general pattern suggests that it could be one (perhaps of several).
Yet without in-depth study, it's risky to assume that the relationship
is causal rather than coincidental.
Furthermore, even if there is a cause-and-effect relationship, it might
work opposite to what has apparently been assumed, i.e., growth of
superstition is perhaps a result of economic stagnation rather than a
cause. Long-term despair of economic deprivation might cause many
people to lapse into self-defeating superstitious "explanations" for
their lack of good fortune. It doesn't help their finances any, but
they get the assurance that the evildoers--whoever they are--will
receive just punishment. Or maybe being out-of-work just prompts some
people to go into the preaching business? If you're good at selling
junk cars to your neighbors, you can probably sell them junk religion,
too.
From my own casual observation, it seems there might be a direct
correlation between economic hardship and extreme religiosity. However,
I suspect that in most cases some other factor(s), such as isolation or
inadequate education, is a cause of both.
--
=SAJ=
To reply, delete NOSPAM from address.
http://tangents.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "Tron Furu" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
01 Sep 2004 05:55:11 AM |
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"S.A.Joyce" <s.a.joyce@NOSPAM.att.net> skrev i melding
news:wPZYc.281075$OB3.278240@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tPadnU60Ooax55XcRVn-rw@comcast.com...
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
Maybe it only works with a "Protestant Hell" and not the Catholic or
Muslim one.
Protestants don't have absolution. Perhaps that's it.
T
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
01 Sep 2004 12:19:01 PM |
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"Tron Furu" <tronfuru@frisurf.no> wrote in message
news:nUhZc.4400$WW4.61693@news4.e.nsc.no...
"S.A.Joyce" <s.a.joyce@NOSPAM.att.net> skrev i melding
news:wPZYc.281075$OB3.278240@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tPadnU60Ooax55XcRVn-rw@comcast.com...
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
Maybe it only works with a "Protestant Hell" and not the Catholic or
Muslim one.
Protestants don't have absolution. Perhaps that's it.
You mean Catholocism is more universal as a religion since it incorporated all
religious practices into it during the Roman Empire to create less religious
unemployment when elL dutchie Christ took over from the rest a da gods?
The Two Babylons or The Papal Worship
Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife
By the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop / 1853 (entire book!)
http://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/default.htm
T
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
31 Aug 2004 06:58:34 PM |
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"S.A.Joyce" <s.a.joyce@NOSPAM.att.net> wrote in message
news:wPZYc.281075$OB3.278240@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tPadnU60Ooax55XcRVn-rw@comcast.com...
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
Maybe it only works with a "Protestant Hell" and not the Catholic or
Muslim one.
It's hard to guess where they might have chosen to dig up their data,
since generally available evidence would seem to indicate the contrary.
As already mentioned, while heavily Catholic Latin America has
noticeable pockets of prosperity, it is largely dominated by poverty.
Same for the heavily Muslim Middle East.
On the other side of the ledger, I'm not aware that Hell-belief is a
major component of Shinto or Buddhism, the primary religions of
prosperous Japan. In Europe, moderately to decreasingly religious
Sweden and Switzerland enjoy high standards of living, while at the
center of the Roman Catholic sphere Italy has been in economic turmoil
for as long as anyone can remember. And if we examine regions within
the U.S. itself, we find that the regions most receptive to
hellfire-and-brimstone religion (Deep South, Appalachia, and Middle
West) are also the most economically lethargic.
The idea that what is "inevitable" whether, it is hevean or hell or whatever,
sets the rational for inoculating tolerance for the downside of things;
"...when a situation arises that is both negative and inevitable. Here people
attempt to make the best of things by cog-nitively minimizing the unpleasantness
of the situation. In one experiment, Jack Brehm got children to volunteer to eat
a vegetable they had previously said they disliked a lot. After they had eaten
the vegetable, the experimenter led half of the children to believe they could
expect to eat much more of that vegetable in the future; the remaining children
were not so informed. The children who were led to believe it was inevitable that
they would be eating the vegetable in the futuresucceeded in convincing
themselves that the vegetable was not so bad."
"In short, the cognition "I dislike that vegetable" is dissonant with the
cognition "I will be eating that vegetable in the future." In order to reduce the
dissonance, the children came to believe the vegetable was really not as noxious
as they had previously thought. John Darley and Ellen Berscheid showed that the
same phenomenon works with people as well as vegetables. In their experiment,
college women volunteered to participate in a series of meetings in which each
student would be discussing her sexual behavior and sexual standards with another
woman whom she didn't know."
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=inevitability+group:alt.philosophy.*+author:reanimater_2000%40yahoo.com&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=EvydnTdvws6c65XcRVn-hQ%40comcast.com&rnum=2
Not that I suppose religion is the only, or even a major, factor, but
the general pattern suggests that it could be one (perhaps of several).
Yet without in-depth study, it's risky to assume that the relationship
is causal rather than coincidental.
Furthermore, even if there is a cause-and-effect relationship, it might
work opposite to what has apparently been assumed, i.e., growth of
superstition is perhaps a result of economic stagnation rather than a
cause. Long-term despair of economic deprivation might cause many
people to lapse into self-defeating superstitious "explanations" for
their lack of good fortune. It doesn't help their finances any, but
they get the assurance that the evildoers--whoever they are--will
receive just punishment. Or maybe being out-of-work just prompts some
people to go into the preaching business? If you're good at selling
junk cars to your neighbors, you can probably sell them junk religion,
too.
From my own casual observation, it seems there might be a direct
correlation between economic hardship and extreme religiosity. However,
I suspect that in most cases some other factor(s), such as isolation or
inadequate education, is a cause of both.
--
=SAJ=
To reply, delete NOSPAM from address.
http://tangents.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "R. Gregg Reed" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
28 Jul 2004 11:26:14 PM |
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raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
I'm sure there must be a significant amount of information that proves
their thesis, otherwise they wouldn't have published the report. You can't
just dismiss their findings because you don't want to think that religion
might have a positive effect. That would be closed minded.
.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
29 Jul 2004 04:00:54 PM |
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"R. Gregg Reed" <rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote in
news:G%_Nc.20745$m63.4096@animal.nntpserver.com:
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
I'm sure there must be a significant amount of information that proves
their thesis, otherwise they wouldn't have published the report. You
can't just dismiss their findings because you don't want to think that
religion might have a positive effect. That would be closed minded.
*BELCH.*
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
"It is interesting to note that the death
penalty for individuals is less controversial
than the mere suggestion that a few corporations
may have forfeited their right to exist. How many
people does a company have to harm before we question
if it ought to exist?"
-- Paul Hawken
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| User: "Michael Voytinsky" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
03 Aug 2004 08:39:38 PM |
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"R. Gregg Reed" <rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote in message news:<G%_Nc.20745$m63.4096@animal.nntpserver.com>...
I'm sure there must be a significant amount of information that proves
their thesis, otherwise they wouldn't have published the report.
According to the latest issue of Weekly World News, half of America's
prostitutes are space aliens. I'm sure there must be a significant
amount of information that proves their claim, otherwise they wouldn't
have published the tabloid.
You can't just dismiss their findings because you don't want to think that
religion might have a positive effect.
You can, however, dismiss this particular report because their
hypothesis (if it deserves that name) is crushed to dust under the
weight of counter-examples. For example, virtually everyone in
Pakistan believe in hell - which does not prevent it from being one of
the world's most corrupt nations.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
29 Jul 2004 12:11:12 PM |
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:26:14 +0000 in episode
<G%_Nc.20745$m63.4096@animal.nntpserver.com> we saw our hero "R. Gregg
Reed" <rgr@blazonsolutions.com>:
I'm sure there must be a significant amount of information that proves
their thesis, otherwise they wouldn't have published the report.
You're being funny on purpose right?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
29 Jul 2004 03:10:43 PM |
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:11:12 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:26:14 +0000 in episode
<G%_Nc.20745$m63.4096@animal.nntpserver.com> we saw our hero "R. Gregg
Reed" <rgr@blazonsolutions.com>:
I'm sure there must be a significant amount of information that proves
their thesis, otherwise they wouldn't have published the report.
You're being funny on purpose right?
Sadly, he's dead serious. Then people can't figure out why
I've indicated many times the general American populace is
undereducated and can't think.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
29 Jul 2004 06:32:27 PM |
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:26:14 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
I'm sure there must be a significant amount of information that proves
their thesis, otherwise they wouldn't have published the report. You can't
just dismiss their findings because you don't want to think that religion
might have a positive effect. That would be closed minded.
Please feel free to provide a link to whatever peer-reviewed journals
that you think have published articles which support your claims...
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
30 Jul 2004 10:17:17 AM |
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"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:e12jg0df1n78c7ecq0mktmm1bv3cn6kusu@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:26:14 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in
news:p6ugg053i89kij7fq5vncko152l0c34v84@4ax.com:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed"
<rgr@blazonsolutions.com> wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
Because virtually everyone in every shithole country in Central and
South America and the Middle East believes in Hell, and it doesn't
make a damn bit of difference economically?
I'm sure there must be a significant amount of information that proves
their thesis, otherwise they wouldn't have published the report. You can't
just dismiss their findings because you don't want to think that religion
might have a positive effect. That would be closed minded.
Please feel free to provide a link to whatever peer-reviewed journals
that you think have published articles which support your claims...
The original article;
http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/2004/c/pages/fear_of_hell.html
REFERENCES
http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/2004/c/pages/en_fear_of_hell.html#ref
Anderson, Gary M. "Mr. Smith and the Preachers: The Economics of Religion in the
Wealth of Nations," Journal of Political Economy, 1988, Vol. 96, No. 5, pp.
1066-88.
Barro, Robert J. and McCleary, Rachel M. "Religion and Economic Growth across
Countries," American Sociological Review, October 2003, Vol. 68, pp. 760-81.
Claessens, Stijn and Laeven, Luc. "Financial Development, Property Rights, and
Growth," The Journal of Finance, December 2003, Vol. 58, No. 6, pp. 2401-36.
Glaeser, Edward L. and Sacerdote, Bruce I. "Education and Religion," Manuscript,
Feb. 14, 2002. See
http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/glaeser/Ed_and_Rel.pdf.
Iannaccone, Laurence R. "Introduction to the Economics of Religion," Journal of
Economic Literature, September 1998, Vol. 36, pp. 1465-96.
Johnson, Paul. A History of the American People. New York: HarperCollins, 1997.
North, Douglass C. and Weingast, Barry R. "Constitutions and Commitment: The
Evolution of Institutions Governing Public Choice in Seventeenth-Century
England," Journal of Economic History, December 1989, Vol. 49, No. 4, pp.
804-32.
Rosenberg, Nathan and Birdzell Jr., L.E. How the West Grew Rich: The Economic
Transformation of the Industrial World. New York: Basic Books, 1986.
Tawney, Richard Henry. Religion and the Rise of Capitalism, with a new
introduction by Adam B. Seligman. New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers,
1998.
Weber, Max. The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, translated by
Talcott Parsons. Los Angeles: Roxbury Publishing Co., 1996.
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| User: "Levy Oates" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
30 Jul 2004 12:14:18 AM |
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed" <rgr@blazonsolutions.com>
wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
It's obvious: there is a far stronger correlation between the level of pink
marigold glove ownership and economic growth. The U.S., Western Europe and Japan
have the highest proportion of pink marigold gloves anywhere in the world and
have consistently enjoyed far higher economic growth rates. Africa, South
America and the Indian sub-continent by contrast have eschewed pink marigold
gloves and have paid the economic price for their narrow mindedness.
---------
Archdeacom Levy Oates
On behalf of the Prophet Eric Peabody (pbuh)
Basingstoke, England
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/bumblism/
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
30 Jul 2004 10:18:28 AM |
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"Levy Oates" <levy_oates@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1mjg0l3drqh455sm5f3u51toq5rsr6muq@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:20:45 GMT, "R. Gregg Reed" <rgr@blazonsolutions.com>
wrote:
"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
What a crock of shite . . .
Why do think it's a crock of shite?
It's obvious: there is a far stronger correlation between the level of pink
marigold glove ownership and economic growth. The U.S., Western Europe and
Japan
have the highest proportion of pink marigold gloves anywhere in the world and
have consistently enjoyed far higher economic growth rates. Africa, South
America and the Indian sub-continent by contrast have eschewed pink marigold
gloves and have paid the economic price for their narrow mindedness.
If everyone thought a god was gonna get you in the coming days vs a god was gonna
get you after you die, would that make a difference.
---------
Archdeacom Levy Oates
On behalf of the Prophet Eric Peabody (pbuh)
Basingstoke, England
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/bumblism/
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
28 Jul 2004 10:57:32 PM |
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"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
What a crock of shite . . .
"Federal Reserve Bank Says 'Belief in Hell' Boosts Economic Growth"
Alister Bull, Reuters News Service
WASHINGTON - Economists searching for reasons why some nations are richer
than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell are less
corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the Federal Reserve
Bank of St. Louis.
Could it be that once a person believes something is inevitable they change their
views about it and sometimes come to like it and "build their life around it?"
The Psychology of Inevitability
George Bernard Shaw was hard hit by his father's alcoholism, but he tried to make
light of it. He once wrote: "If you cannot get rid of the family skeleton, you
may as well make it dance." In a sense, dissonance theory describes the ways
people have of making their skeletons dance—of trying to live with unpleasant
outcomes. This is particularly true when a situation arises that is both negative
and inevitable. Here people attempt to make the best of things by cog-nitively
minimizing the unpleasantness of the situation. In one experiment, Jack Brehm got
children to volunteer to eat a vegetable they had previously said they disliked a
lot. After they had eaten the vegetable, the experimenter led half of the
children to believe they could expect to eat much more of that vegetable in the
future; the remaining children were not so informed. The children who were led to
believe it was inevitable that they would be eating the vegetable in the future
succeeded in convincing themselves that the vegetable was not so bad. In short,
the cognition "I dislike that vegetable" is dissonant with the cognition "I will
be eating that vegetable in the future." In order to reduce the dissonance, the
children came to believe the vegetable was really not as noxious as they had
previously thought. John Darley and Ellen Berscheid showed that the same
phenomenon works with people as well as vegetables. In their experiment, college
women volunteered to participate in a series of meetings in which each student
would be discussing her sexual behavior and sexual standards with another woman
whom she didn't know. Before beginning these discussion sessions, each
participant was given two folders. Each folder contained a personality
description of a young woman who had supposedly volunteered for the same
experience; the descriptions contained a mixture of pleasant and unpleasant
characteristics. Half of the participants were led to believe they were going to
interact with the young women described in folder A, and the remaining
participants were led to believe they were going to interact with the one
described in folder B. Before actually meeting these women, the participants were
asked to evaluate each of them on the basis of the personality descriptions they
had read. Those who felt it was inevitable that they were going to share their
intimate secrets with the young woman described in folder A found her much more
appealing than the one described in folder B, whereas those who believed they had
to interact with the young woman described in folder B found her much more
appealing. Just as with vegetables, inevitability makes the heart grow fonder.
The knowledge that one is inevitably going to be spending time with another
person enhances the positive aspects of that person—or at least deemphasizes his
or her negative aspects. In short, people tend to make the best of something they
know is bound to happen.
Deemphasizing the negative can be an adaptive strategy when what's in store is a
disliked vegetable or a discussion with someone whom we've never met. There are
situations, however, when such a strategy can prove disastrous. Consider the case
of students at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA). Geological
studies conducted in the mid-1980s indicated that there was a 90 percent
probability of at least one major earthquake in Los Angeles during the next 20
years.
In the face of such an impending disaster, rational people would no doubt
acknowledge the danger and work to prepare by learning all they can about it and
by taking safety precautions. In 1987, two social psychologists at UCLA, Darrin
Lehman and Shelley Taylor, conducted interviews with 120 undergraduates at their
university and determined that such is not the case. Their findings were
unsettling: Only 5 percent had taken any safety precautions (such as locating the
nearest fire extinguisher); only one-third knew that the best action to take
during a quake is to crawl under a heavy piece of furniture or to stand in a
doorway; and not one respondent had taken preparatory measures recommended by
experts. It seems that even among well-educated people, a typical response to an
inevitable catastrophe is to do very little to prepare for it.
It's noteworthy that coping styles varied as a function of the students' living
situation. Those students living in seismically unsafe residence halls were more
likely than those living in relatively safe residence halls to cope with the
impending disaster by refusing to think about it or by minimizing the expected
damage. That is, those who were most at risk in the event of a quake were the
very ones who refused to think about the imminent catastrophe or who
underestimated its severity. In short, if I'm pretty sure that there's going to
be an earthquake, how can I justify continuing to live in an unsafe residence
hall? Easy: I deny that there's going to be an earthquake and refuse to think
about it. Self-justifying responses to dangerous and inevitable events can be
comforting in the short run. But when they keep us from taking steps to enhance
our safety, such responses can, in the long run, prove deadly.
Needless to say, the geological predictions of the mid-1980s proved to be
correct. In the winter of 1994 there was a major earthquake in the Los Angeles
area, resulting in a great deal of property damage and the destruction of
freeways that disrupted transportation for several months. Fortunately, because
the quake took place at 4:30 A.M. during a holiday, there was relatively little
loss of life. While this was a major earthquake, most experts agree that "the big
one" is still pending. Do you think that the earthquake of 1994 will lead people
to be better prepared for the next one?
As you may have noticed, there is a curious difference between the responses of
children facing a disliked vegetable or college students facing an inevitable
interaction with another person, on the one hand, and the responses of UCLA
students to the threat of an impending earthquake, on the other hand. In the
former situations, the inevitable is accepted and attitudes stressing the
positive aspects of the unavoidable event are embraced. The latter situation,
however, involves confronting a highly probable event that is life-threatening
and largely uncontrollable. It would be stretching the limits of the human
imagination to redefine a major earthquake as desirable—or as anything less than
a catastrophe. And we can't prevent earthquakes; the best we can hope for is to
respond adaptively to one, with no guarantee that safety measures will really
save us. Thus, the nature of our response may very well depend on whether we
believe preventive steps will genuinely increase our sense of control over the
inevitable. If such steps seem largely futile, then the prospect of expending
energy on them will only serve to increase our feeling of dissonance even
further. Under such circumstances, we are likely to justify not taking safety
measures by denying the probability of the potential disaster or vastly
underestimating its magnitude.
The Social Animal - Elliot Aronson - 8th Edition 1999
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0716733129/
Example 1;
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22Stateways+Can+Change+Folkways%22+group:alt.philosophy.*+author:reanimater_2000%40yahoo.com&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=v64rlmpc5bqq45%40corp.supernews.com&rnum=1
Researchers at the regional Federal Reserve bank acknowledged the importance
of productivity and investment in the economic process but looked at some
recent unconventional efforts to explain differences in national prosperity.
The St Louis Fed drew on work by outside economists who studied 35
countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India and
Turkey and found that religion shed some useful light.
"In countries where where large percentages of the population believe in
hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living,"
the St. Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.
For instance, 71 percent of the U.S. population believe in hell and the
country boasts the world's highest per capita income, according to the 2003
United Nations Human Development Report and 1990-1993 World Values Survey.
Ireland, not far behind the United States in terms of income, likewise has a
healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population
acknowledging hell's existence.
"I'm not surprised," said the Rev. Eileen Lindner, deputy general secretary
of the U.S. National Council of Churches, when told of the results.
"The expectation that there is a cultural belief in hell or perpetual and
eternal punishment for wrongdoing will act as a disincentive to wrongdoing,"
she said.
The St Louis Fed's researchers took a two-step approach to linking religion
and the economy.
"A belief in hell tends to mean less corruption and less corruption tends to
mean a higher per capita income," they wrote. It correlated the belief in
hell findings of the World Value Series with a measure of corruption
produced by Transparency International.
It then looked at the relationship between corruption and per capita gross
domestic product and found "a strong tendency for countries with relatively
low levels of corruption to have relatively high levels of per capita GDP."
"Combining these two stories ... suggests that, all else being equal, the
more religious a country, the less corruption it will have and the higher
its per capita income will be."
The researchers also noted the long tradition among classical economists to
equate a society's honesty, and the strength of the rule of law, with
economic vitality.
"Adam Smith wrote that one of religion's most important contributions to the
economic development process is its value as a moral enforcement mechanism,"
they said.
Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan offered a contemporary echo of this view,
arguing in a speech earlier this year that modern business still relies on
the word of those with whom it deals as he slammed the recent run of
corporate governance scandals in the United States for eroding that trust.
None of which cut any ice with nonbelievers.
Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study the
latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up government
support.
"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they do so
they turn to other things," she said.
"I cannot imagine what the belief in mythological beings or things that
don't exist can do for business. What about the pornographic industry? That
is probably very good for growth."
The St Louis Fed's essay "Fear of Hell Might Fire Up The Economy" can be
found here.
http://tinyurl.com/6cgom
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| User: "Dale" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
29 Jul 2004 01:17:51 AM |
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"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
What a crock of shite . . .
"Federal Reserve Bank Says 'Belief in Hell' Boosts Economic Growth"
Alister Bull, Reuters News Service
WASHINGTON - Economists searching for reasons why some nations are richer
than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell are less
corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the Federal Reserve
Bank of St. Louis.
Researchers at the regional Federal Reserve bank acknowledged the
importance
of productivity and investment in the economic process but looked at some
recent unconventional efforts to explain differences in national
prosperity.
The St Louis Fed drew on work by outside economists who studied 35
countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India and
Turkey and found that religion shed some useful light.
"In countries where where large percentages of the population believe in
hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living,"
the St. Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.
Unbefreakinglievable. Their theory corresponds to the data only as long as
they ignore the data points that don't fit the theory.
Here are exceprts from the report, gleaned from
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-10-2002_pg7_21,
----
.... In countries where the belief in hell is strong, growth of gross
domestic product runs about 0.5 percent higher than average. This takes
account of other factors, such as education, that influence growth rates.
These countries include Turkey, Bangladesh, Malaysia, and Pakistan, where
the Muslim faith dominates. The Muslim belief in hell is often stronger than
in Christianity. "Punishment from hell is vivid and clear-cut and apparently
has more effect on behavior than the idea of heaven," says Barro.
.... Muslim countries have been experiencing growth that is about average for
developing nations.
----
To recap, countries which have a strong belief in hell have 0.5 % higher
growth than average, Muslim countries have a stronger hell belief than
Christian countries, yet Muslim countries have average growth.
Am I missing something here? I don't think so.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
29 Jul 2004 10:18:21 AM |
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On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:54:26 -0400 in episode
<_rZNc.365$_e3.126@bignews2.bellsouth.net> we saw our hero "ta"
<ta33@bellsouth.net>:
"The expectation that there is a cultural belief in hell or perpetual and
eternal punishment for wrongdoing will act as a disincentive to
wrongdoing," she said.
That must be why we've seen the biggest corporate scandals in all of human
history here in the US...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Yang, AthD h.c" |
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| Title: Re: Belief in Hell Boosts Economic Growth |
29 Jul 2004 02:35:42 AM |
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On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:54:26 -0400, "ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote:
"I'm not surprised," said the Rev. Eileen Lindner, deputy general secretary
of the U.S. National Council of Churches, when told of the results.
It should be noted that the original NBER paper that spurred the
current Fed paper came to the conclusion that church attendance
DECREASED economic development. So whatever economic benefits you get
from believing in heaven and hell is washed out if you spend Monday,
Wednesay, Friday, Saturday and Sunday singing in tongues with Reverend
Lovejoy.
http://www.nber.org/digest/nov03/w9682.html?tools=printit
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -911 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
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