| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"darwinist" |
| Date: |
06 Nov 2006 06:50:53 PM |
| Object: |
Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose? It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
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| User: "Milan" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
06 Nov 2006 07:52:29 PM |
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"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
regards
Milan
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| User: "chazwin" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 10:24:53 AM |
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Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
Either function or personal purpose - there can be no overreaching
teleology.
regards
Milan
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 04:45:48 AM |
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"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916693.005347.176870@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
Either function or personal purpose - there can be no overreaching
teleology.
There is always another step to take on the road to self realization.
BOfL
regards
Milan
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| User: "chazwin" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 10:11:32 AM |
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Brian Fletcher wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916693.005347.176870@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
Either function or personal purpose - there can be no overreaching
teleology.
There is always another step to take on the road to self realization.
Patronising git! There is always another road to abandonment of common
sense and rationality too: it is called the road to madness and
stupidity, paved with faith.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 06:23:07 PM |
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"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163002292.413380.220320@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Brian Fletcher wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916693.005347.176870@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the
creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have
found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any
other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
Either function or personal purpose - there can be no overreaching
teleology.
There is always another step to take on the road to self realization.
Patronising git! There is always another road to abandonment of common
sense and rationality too: it is called the road to madness and
stupidity, paved with faith.
I agree with you regarding your teleologic ref, and you get "patronising
git".
Speaks volumes.
BOfL
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| User: "chazwin" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 06:16:27 PM |
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Brian Fletcher wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163002292.413380.220320@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Brian Fletcher wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916693.005347.176870@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the
creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have
found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any
other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
Either function or personal purpose - there can be no overreaching
teleology.
There is always another step to take on the road to self realization.
Patronising git! There is always another road to abandonment of common
sense and rationality too: it is called the road to madness and
stupidity, paved with faith.
I agree with you regarding your teleologic ref, and you get "patronising
git".
Speaks volumes.
Your "speaks volumes" speaks volumes - you definately are a patronising
git.
BOfL
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| User: "darwinist" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
06 Nov 2006 10:51:16 PM |
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Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
regards
Milan
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| User: "-Phil Clemence" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
06 Nov 2006 11:38:17 PM |
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"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162875076.653853.262000@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
regards
Milan
How about "evolutionary-useful-function" ?
;)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 08:16:22 AM |
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-Phil Clemence wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162875076.653853.262000@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
regards
Milan
How about "evolutionary-useful-function" ?
;)
heh or how about evolutionary-useful-purpose?
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 04:36:46 AM |
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"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162875076.653853.262000@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
Given that scientists are looking for function, my suggestion would be
suggestive to them :-)
Simple really. Creativty.
BOfL
regards
Milan
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| User: "Santimvah" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 12:47:25 AM |
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"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162875076.653853.262000@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
creativity
regards
Milan
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 04:38:23 AM |
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"Santimvah" <innerpeace@heart.net> wrote in message
news:45502bfd@news.eftel.com...
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162875076.653853.262000@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any
other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
creativity
agghhhhhh..... I created it first ...hehehehehe..
BOfL
regards
Milan
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 07:38:56 AM |
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Santimvah wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162875076.653853.262000@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
creativity
Creativity cuts both ways. My cure can be creative. A weapon of
destruction can be creative. Creativity is both good and bad then.
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| User: "-Phil Clemence" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 01:13:19 AM |
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"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162906736.230334.244890@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Santimvah wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162875076.653853.262000@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the
creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have
found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any
other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
creativity
Creativity cuts both ways. My cure can be creative. A weapon of
destruction can be creative. Creativity is both good and bad then.
Yes , but I don't like to single things out.
Everything is both good and bad in varying degrees.
Everyone should know that, but it is good to remind ourselves while we make
judgments ;)
Hmmm
Maybe anything but 'function' really conveys almost too much already...
Maybe each function must have its own description and prefixed by
'evolutionary-useful' if appropriate?
-Phil Clemence
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 04:40:21 AM |
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"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162906736.230334.244890@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Santimvah wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162875076.653853.262000@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the
creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have
found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any
other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
creativity
Creativity cuts both ways. My cure can be creative. A weapon of
destruction can be creative. Creativity is both good and bad then.
Being in tune with 'nature'. The Hindu view of "create, maintain and
destroy" fits well.
BOfL
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| User: "JEM" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 12:48:11 PM |
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On 6 Nov 2006 20:51:16 -0800, "darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote:
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
a few suggestions, might not be what you are looking for...
advantage...
benefit...
skills to acquire...
abilities beyond instinct...
regards
Milan
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 12:50:42 AM |
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darwinist wrote:
Milan wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
Replace "purpose" by "function" here and we will agree.
It's a tough question, because "function" alone doesn't convey the idea
of an "evolutionarily-useful-and-selected-for function", as there are
many useless or dangerous side-effects of useful functions; but
"purpose" is too loaded with design-related baggage, which I'm guessing
is your objection here.
Can someone suggest term for evolutionarily-useful-function, that
conveys more than "function", but isn't as suggestive as "purpose"?
I like "adaptation".
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| User: "Noose" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 04:03:08 AM |
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"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162860652.860355.139180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose? It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
How do you know there is no change in genetics as a result of their new
behaviour? It might be that the genes are changed by the human and not the
human by the genes - likely a bit of both. Some studies suggest that genes
are affected by the circumstances in which the people live - see
www.bbc.co.uk Horizon programme from a few months ago. My guess is that
there is something more to this life than mere existence and cold genes -
and I do not mean god - that genes are vehicle for us. Life's purpose seems
to be to entertain the mind. I hope it enjoys the laugh. Death itself does
not matter but how one dies does.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 07:29:14 AM |
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http://s6.metaldamage.pl/c.php?uid=116048
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 11:28:39 AM |
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On 6 Nov 2006 16:50:53 -0800, "darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote:
Does the human consciousness have any other purpose?
It has no "purpose" at all. Evolution is undirected.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world
insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
- Letter to S. Flesch, April 16, 1954; Einstein Archive 30-1154
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
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| User: "socratus" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
16 Nov 2006 07:29:42 AM |
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The man acts:
1) usually under logic program,
2) sometimes on intuition (unconsciousnessly).
===================================
Brain of a man approximately consists of sixteen milliards neurons.
All of them form the system that manages human body.
That is why, it is of no wonder, that with the work of all the
sixteen milliards neutrons of brain, a man cannot catch a single
impulse of
Electron, Quantum of light, his God:
(mass of electron is equal 10^-31 kg., charge of electron is equal
10^-19 k.)
Quantum of light, Spiritual particle, which had created us, turned out
to be under control
of the material existence. However, the spiritual particle aspires to
establish its supremacy
over material nature. And the possibilities to reign over material
nature are limited.
The expansion of the possibilities of the development of spiritual
particle is connected
with the creation of specific (vacuum) conditions. These conditions
are reached
as a result of constant religious practice.
To perceive the universe, to perceive the spiritual essence, it is
necessary
for the man to take possession of religious practice.
PRACTICE. THE GENERAL PRINCIPLES.
We pray the GOD and we do not realize that HE is inside us.
Each of us carries in him the SPIRITUAL PARTICLE
(QUANTUM OF LIGHT - AN ELECTRON).
But we do not realize that HE is inside us.
Behind the habitual forces of nature there is one force hidden - a
spiritual one (h - e).
But ITS action is almost completely disguised with the other forces
(mechanical, electromagnetic, nuclear, chemical and others),
therefore it remains unnoticed in an ordinary processes.
But God never operates outside of natural principles.
There are the processes in which He reveals himself.
Therefore, His disclosing is a technical question.
How can we learn it?
For this purpose it is necessary to create the following effects in our
computer-brain:
A). Nonlinear effect
B). Superconducting effect
C). Holographic effect
D). Vacuum effect.
Nobody, except us, can make this technical work.
Only we (by the constant, thin, internal practice) can create
conditions for these effects.
This practice has called "a Religious practice".
In this lies an essence of Religion - to establish the communication of
a Human being with his Divine origin.
* * *
Our computer-brain works on a dualistic basis.
In a usual daily life all we do is done logically, under an influence
of our feelings.
On the other hand, in a religious practice we learn to perceive and to
operate:
1) Without the participation of the sense organs.
2) Without the participation of the logic mental processes.
When these conditions will be created, then the opportunity to operate
will be given
to a QUANTUM OF LIGHT (AN ELECTRON), to OUR DIVINE ESSENCE.
We will acquire new forces, new abilities.
Once again.
An electron's mass is 10^-28gr . The size is 10^-13sm. A charge is
10^-19k .
With these characteristics it is hard for IT to appear.
Therefore it is clear, why we don't know IT in our ordinary life.
ITS cognition is achieved by a very hard, thin and laborious work.
This work demands of a person to be devoted to it.
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| User: "chazwin" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 10:23:51 AM |
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darwinist wrote:
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics.
But they are not evolved changes as they do not exist in genes, only in
"culture".
Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
The only purpose we have is that we decide upon in our individual
lives, this leads to the survival of what have been called Cultural
Viruses which seem to be affected by the same mechanisms that genes do
in nature.
It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
One might also consider that the machinations of technology and the
concurrent massive increase in human population have arrested genetic
evolution in that many humans survive, who would not have otherwise, to
procreate.
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| User: "-Phil Clemence" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
08 Nov 2006 01:24:30 AM |
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"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916631.300753.30250@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
darwinist wrote:
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics.
But they are not evolved changes as they do not exist in genes, only in
"culture".
Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
The only purpose we have is that we decide upon in our individual
lives, this leads to the survival of what have been called Cultural
Viruses which seem to be affected by the same mechanisms that genes do
in nature.
It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
One might also consider that the machinations of technology and the
concurrent massive increase in human population have arrested genetic
evolution in that many humans survive, who would not have otherwise, to
procreate.
But we don't know this yet, do we?
Can genetic evolution still occur when the behavior does not prevent
procreation?
I really don't know genetic stuff.
-Phil Clemence
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| User: "chazwin" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
11 Nov 2006 06:36:29 PM |
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-Phil Clemence wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916631.300753.30250@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
darwinist wrote:
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics.
But they are not evolved changes as they do not exist in genes, only in
"culture".
Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
The only purpose we have is that we decide upon in our individual
lives, this leads to the survival of what have been called Cultural
Viruses which seem to be affected by the same mechanisms that genes do
in nature.
It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
One might also consider that the machinations of technology and the
concurrent massive increase in human population have arrested genetic
evolution in that many humans survive, who would not have otherwise, to
procreate.
But we don't know this yet, do we?
Can genetic evolution still occur when the behavior does not prevent
procreation?
I really don't know genetic stuff.
-Phil Clemence
We do know this. Evolution can only proceed if individuals die.
Evolution does not act to improve species: it does not act at all.
evolution is not the cause of change - things change and therefore can
evolve. But the over-riding factor is more to do with things dying than
with things living. A living individual can pass on traits that are
selectively neutral and even things that are selectively negative. An
individual that dies, however, before it procreates passes on no genes
at all, if it died due to selectively negative genes this is where
evolution really hits home.
So, no evolution can occur where behaviour does not prevent procreation.
.
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
11 Nov 2006 07:53:31 PM |
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chazwin wrote:
-Phil Clemence wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916631.300753.30250@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
darwinist wrote:
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics.
But they are not evolved changes as they do not exist in genes, only in
"culture".
Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose?
The only purpose we have is that we decide upon in our individual
lives, this leads to the survival of what have been called Cultural
Viruses which seem to be affected by the same mechanisms that genes do
in nature.
It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
One might also consider that the machinations of technology and the
concurrent massive increase in human population have arrested genetic
evolution in that many humans survive, who would not have otherwise, to
procreate.
But we don't know this yet, do we?
Can genetic evolution still occur when the behavior does not prevent
procreation?
I really don't know genetic stuff.
-Phil Clemence
We do know this. Evolution can only proceed if individuals die.
Evolution does not act to improve species: it does not act at all.
evolution is not the cause of change - things change and therefore can
evolve. But the over-riding factor is more to do with things dying than
with things living. A living individual can pass on traits that are
selectively neutral and even things that are selectively negative. An
individual that dies, however, before it procreates passes on no genes
at all, if it died due to selectively negative genes this is where
evolution really hits home.
So, no evolution can occur where behaviour does not prevent procreation.
Prolonging the life of any individual is the counter-productive, an
interruption or interference with the 'process'. By extending life, the
genetic process of evolution is artifically slowed down.
.
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| User: "-Phil Clemence" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
13 Nov 2006 12:04:34 AM |
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"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163296411.664425.142360@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
chazwin wrote:
-Phil Clemence wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916631.300753.30250@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
darwinist wrote:
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the
creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics.
But they are not evolved changes as they do not exist in genes, only
in
"culture".
Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any
other
purpose?
The only purpose we have is that we decide upon in our individual
lives, this leads to the survival of what have been called Cultural
Viruses which seem to be affected by the same mechanisms that genes
do
in nature.
It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to
justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
One might also consider that the machinations of technology and the
concurrent massive increase in human population have arrested genetic
evolution in that many humans survive, who would not have otherwise,
to
procreate.
But we don't know this yet, do we?
Can genetic evolution still occur when the behavior does not prevent
procreation?
I really don't know genetic stuff.
-Phil Clemence
We do know this. Evolution can only proceed if individuals die.
Evolution does not act to improve species: it does not act at all.
evolution is not the cause of change - things change and therefore can
evolve. But the over-riding factor is more to do with things dying than
with things living. A living individual can pass on traits that are
selectively neutral and even things that are selectively negative. An
individual that dies, however, before it procreates passes on no genes
at all, if it died due to selectively negative genes this is where
evolution really hits home.
So, no evolution can occur where behaviour does not prevent procreation.
ah ah ah .. yes i did hear that somewhere - thanks
I think I need to read more about it -
I am sure there are many things I heard that I don't know now ;)
Prolonging the life of any individual is the counter-productive, an
interruption or interference with the 'process'. By extending life, the
genetic process of evolution is artifically slowed down.
Ha! - just too many of the "prolonged" genes getting into the mix
If I had known more aspects when I first heard it, it might have stuck.
You know ... maybe you guys are just prolonging my life in this group ;)
-Phil Clemence
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
20 Nov 2006 10:23:41 PM |
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-Phil Clemence wrote:
"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163296411.664425.142360@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
chazwin wrote:
-Phil Clemence wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162916631.300753.30250@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
darwinist wrote:
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the
creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics.
But they are not evolved changes as they do not exist in genes, only
in
"culture".
Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any
other
purpose?
The only purpose we have is that we decide upon in our individual
lives, this leads to the survival of what have been called Cultural
Viruses which seem to be affected by the same mechanisms that genes
do
in nature.
It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to
justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
One might also consider that the machinations of technology and the
concurrent massive increase in human population have arrested genetic
evolution in that many humans survive, who would not have otherwise,
to
procreate.
But we don't know this yet, do we?
Can genetic evolution still occur when the behavior does not prevent
procreation?
I really don't know genetic stuff.
-Phil Clemence
We do know this. Evolution can only proceed if individuals die.
Evolution does not act to improve species: it does not act at all.
evolution is not the cause of change - things change and therefore can
evolve. But the over-riding factor is more to do with things dying than
with things living. A living individual can pass on traits that are
selectively neutral and even things that are selectively negative. An
individual that dies, however, before it procreates passes on no genes
at all, if it died due to selectively negative genes this is where
evolution really hits home.
So, no evolution can occur where behaviour does not prevent procreation.
ah ah ah .. yes i did hear that somewhere - thanks
I think I need to read more about it -
I am sure there are many things I heard that I don't know now ;)
Prolonging the life of any individual is the counter-productive, an
interruption or interference with the 'process'. By extending life, the
genetic process of evolution is artifically slowed down.
Ha! - just too many of the "prolonged" genes getting into the mix
If I had known more aspects when I first heard it, it might have stuck.
You know ... maybe you guys are just prolonging my life in this group ;)
-Phil Clemence
Yikes. Thanks for the heads up. I don't want that responsibility. Live
if you want. Die if you want. Some people choosing death might serve a
society well. Living can be selfish. Choosing to battle death regularly
can be a strain for the remaining society.
.
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| User: "Sphere" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
06 Nov 2006 09:13:14 PM |
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darwinist wrote:
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose? It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
I'll agree with the others about 'purpose'.
Consciousness is the ability to form some sort of prediction
about the future. It is a natural developement of the
evolutionary trend towards being metastable in the face of
uncertanty. In a limited sense, our consciousness is just
an attempt to survive.
As far as having a purpose... I don't believe in having a
purpose. A purpose is something you choose. Even if one
were to assume a creator that doesn't give this supposed
creator any right to assign a purpose.
So... To be is to persist for awhile. To survive. Is is good
enough for short term goals. To the extent one needs long
term goals one has to choose them, not be assigned them.
I choose to defeat entropy -- that will keep me occupied
through an eon of kalpas of imagined lives.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection.
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| User: "-Phil Clemence" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 01:08:49 AM |
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"Sphere" <sphere1952@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162869194.666072.30810@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
darwinist wrote:
Human consciousness can put plans together, which enables the creation
of new behaviours without any change in genetics. Our genes have found
a way for the behaviour of their vessels to evolve much faster than
they can evolve themselves. Does the human consciousness have any other
purpose? It seems that taking account of the world and making new ways
of dealing with it, is a full time job in itself, and enough to justify
the energy used by an abstract mind.
I'll agree with the others about 'purpose'.
Consciousness is the ability to form some sort of prediction
about the future. It is a natural developement of the
evolutionary trend towards being metastable in the face of
uncertanty. In a limited sense, our consciousness is just
an attempt to survive.
Yeah -- it is feaky how complex it worked out .. like it reached a critical
mass because we lived so long without much of it ... some think language and
the resulting ability to symbolize abstract things and share them did it...
or was language the result of drives to communicate the abstract ..? Well,
I think it is a good guess - so far the best guess either way it works out.
As far as having a purpose... I don't believe in having a
purpose. A purpose is something you choose. Even if one
were to assume a creator that doesn't give this supposed
creator any right to assign a purpose.
Oh .. If there was a creator, and such a thing as 'purpose' who would deny
him the right to assign it?
Who would 'give' him the right? Oh, it is such hypothesis ...
When I imagine the possibility of there being a creator I can't even give
'him' much human attributes anymore.
I could try to hypothesize better by putting aside what I know, but I have
done that a lot and not got much from it.
I put down the brick of reality to wait for something ... just a light
feather touch of something else ... I got tired of waiting.
But .. when I pick up the brick again, it seems to have more weight ... I
can feel the texture and the balance and the mass when I heft it ... I think
that is the benefit of clearing the mind of reality .. not to see what is
NOT real, but to understand more about what is real by perceiving it fresh.
Not so much to find something new in it ... but to see more clearly what I
already knew. If we were only computers with detectors it would always be
the same .. no new information .. but we do NOT understand very well what we
already know. What IS understanding? Well, a lot of smart people are
working on that and what they are discovering is too complex to even
summarize in a few basic and general pages ... not that I have the ability
to do that or the links handy for those who have ... It may be a long time
even if a new concept is developed to shortcut the processes.. We have been
using 'consciousness' and 'understanding' so long and it is still a matter
of learning all that those terms imply. Funny how we did develop practical
terms and enrich them so fast after we developed 'consciousness' and
'understanding' for practical use. Maybe they are both simply open-ended
terms and a new concept for either may never come and alt.philosophy will
just balloon exponentially in the next few years. It might just overwhelm
the spam.
So... To be is to persist for awhile. To survive. Is is good
enough for short term goals. To the extent one needs long
term goals one has to choose them, not be assigned them.
I choose to defeat entropy -- that will keep me occupied
through an eon of kalpas of imagined lives.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection.
I like that... "no essence"
If there was an essence it would define limitation.
I don't think we are without limits, but those mostly must be defined by
reaching them, not setting them.
Maybe after a couple of billion years we can make some predictions ;)
I think I read someone wrote that consciousness makes us unhappy..
or something like that
I am sure it was in this group if not this thread ...
It is one of the basic ideas in Buddhism that living brings pain (for the
conscious being) and that meditation can relieve much of it by stepping into
a slightly different state of consciousness and also by promoting the
ability to retain some aspects of that consciousness when you are in daily
life and not just sitting still and chanting. Partly habit, of course, but
that is the point - to do it intentionally - to use it as a tool. Of course
we are in different states of consciousness throughout of days and lives,
but often we don't control them and end up in habitual and unhappy states
(watch a lot of TV, have tough living conditions, be sick, bad dreams,
frustration over politics, philosophizing too much ...).
We are pretty happy when distracted by pleasures, but they don't last long
or have side-effects, and while we plan to do things, it is not quite the
same as planning to control our mood. Being aware / conscious of controlling
our consciousness is something that can really help. So many people say so -
it is hard to argue with a POW who found peace while being tortured and
abused for years. I might say he was just crazy - he found escape in some
wacky state of consciousness - escapism, etc...
Well, while I might do that by watching a movie, playing soccer, sex,
getting high, I am not really thinking about what I am doing (well, I am a
little more aware nowadays). He was quite aware - and wrote a book about
it(so I heard - never read it
I forget who it was and just heard a little about him (some great
philosopher) but some here might know, and he is an extreme example.. but
only one of many.
He had all the time he needed to practice it, and monks have a lot of time,
too, and it can seem like a selfish thing if that is all you do with it
(might as well be tripping all day). I used to think monks were like that
and I bet some of them are (just escaping *reality*).
Consciousness may be complex and mysterious, but we know some tricks.
You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can fool yourself
all the time - for better or worse.
If you realize it you have a better chance to avoid the "worse"
We often think of freedom as not being controlled by anything, but ideas of
freedom and attempts to have it .. what is controlling you then? Oh, freedom
is great, but to be free of everything is only death.
Real freedom seems to be the ability to choose what controls you ... self
control is the most freedom we can get, maybe!
ahh .. What a rant. I wonder what was controlling me ?
Well, it is a way for me to evaluate what I think (to write) and to have
others evaluate it.
I try to re-read anything I write or post but I am lazy and want you to do
my work for me ;)
-Phil Clemence
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| User: "turtoni" |
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| Title: Re: Genes, Behaviour and Consciousness |
07 Nov 2006 01:22:59 AM |
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- Phil Clemence wrote:
- I think I read someone wrote that consciousness makes us unhappy..
- or something like that
"Order and disorder co-exist in lifelong quests for a dynamic balance
that is never quite achieved."
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