| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Christine" |
| Date: |
18 Aug 2004 09:53:04 PM |
| Object: |
Has this been asked before?.... |
X-No-archive: yes
and is there an answer that doesn't result in a huge thesis?
New stage ...
I feel caused by the future, all predetermined like...
I used to be like ok this happened and I did that,
and action reaction, one reacts to other events...
went through a mystic stage where I guess I would
"read" events for guidance, and God would console with
mercy and that mercy would mostly be justice, in my mind...
....like an event would happen and I would do the right
thing
and it almost seemed like the event created the virtue in me
but nonetheless I always held it to be virtue...
( yet if say compassion and love are truth and virtuous truths
they do not come into existence because of the circumstance)
like you do the right thing and later there is a ratification
by creation that justice was served...
...an understanding on some level of God, but God reacting to
my actions
now it has been turned totally upside down, and its not God reacting
to me, but like me being totally written in full, but getting the scripts
daily, not really understanding the plot of that day, but at day's end
really understanding....
like if I was still a mystic, well one day all of creation telling you you
are wrong and the next day winking and smiling at you like angels
were protecting you the whole time
....and then reading that you were just fulfilling your part, that you
did not do the right thing but were taught and protected and consoled...
and finding mercy not to serve the end means of justice
( for deserved mercy is just justice) but
finding to your horror that you chose all the wrong moves
did all the wrong things and received mercy, great rich,
undeserved mercy...
but to find that the script had you play the part to learn that
and you needed to learn that ...
you still feel bad for making the wrong choices
and doing the wrong things
but incredibly happy! amazingly happy...
so from these eyes, and I reckon they aren't philosophers eyes
at all...but to me now this predetermation which seems quite
solid now, to me...kind of throws a wrench in free will...
however I am thinking that for me Free will still is evident
in the choice for or against God....
...somehow someway even tho everything seems like
it has already happened...
ok well, thanks for your time
In Christ
Christine
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| User: "Ben Humphrey" |
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| Title: Re: Has this been asked before?.... |
19 Aug 2004 09:24:40 PM |
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Christine wrote:
X-No-archive: yes
and is there an answer that doesn't result in a huge thesis?
New stage ...
I feel caused by the future, all predetermined like...
I used to be like ok this happened and I did that,
and action reaction, one reacts to other events...
went through a mystic stage where I guess I would
"read" events for guidance, and God would console with
mercy and that mercy would mostly be justice, in my mind...
...like an event would happen and I would do the right
thing
and it almost seemed like the event created the virtue in me
but nonetheless I always held it to be virtue...
( yet if say compassion and love are truth and virtuous truths
they do not come into existence because of the circumstance)
like you do the right thing and later there is a ratification
by creation that justice was served...
..an understanding on some level of God, but God reacting to
my actions
now it has been turned totally upside down, and its not God reacting
to me, but like me being totally written in full, but getting the scripts
daily, not really understanding the plot of that day, but at day's end
really understanding....
like if I was still a mystic, well one day all of creation telling you you
are wrong and the next day winking and smiling at you like angels
were protecting you the whole time
...and then reading that you were just fulfilling your part, that you
did not do the right thing but were taught and protected and consoled...
and finding mercy not to serve the end means of justice
( for deserved mercy is just justice) but
finding to your horror that you chose all the wrong moves
did all the wrong things and received mercy, great rich,
undeserved mercy...
but to find that the script had you play the part to learn that
and you needed to learn that ...
you still feel bad for making the wrong choices
and doing the wrong things
but incredibly happy! amazingly happy...
so from these eyes, and I reckon they aren't philosophers eyes
at all...but to me now this predetermation which seems quite
solid now, to me...kind of throws a wrench in free will...
however I am thinking that for me Free will still is evident
in the choice for or against God....
..somehow someway even tho everything seems like
it has already happened...
ok well, thanks for your time
In Christ
Christine
This is the question of Peter. and Judas... what thou doest do quickly.
What is to be done? And how can it be done better quickly than slowly?
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| User: "Christine" |
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| Title: Re: Has this been asked before?.... |
19 Aug 2004 11:45:06 PM |
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X-No-archive: yes
"Ben Humphrey" <benhumphrey@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:412560E4.70203@frontiernet.net...
This is the question of Peter. and Judas... what thou doest do quickly.
What is to be done? And how can it be done better quickly than slowly?
OK well that was a bit egnimatic...lets' break it down...
Peter was to be sifted by Satan and he denied Christ three times
it was foretold and it happened...
Judas betrayed Jesus, and he represents I guess the unforgiveable
sin...because even as he tried to repent he died in anguish and grief...
so was there in fact a question to it at all?
it is suggested from our POV that it was a given...as if these things
were all predetermined and unavoidable...
yet this is contrasted to Jesus and His agony at Gethsemane,
where first He asks :
"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me.
Yet not as I will, but as you will."
and then coming back into the Garden again says,
"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be
taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
so we see His struggle with free will and submitting Himself to
His destiny....this is the most striking account of Jesus' humanity
----yet He had choice and will and submitted it to the Father---
therefore it would seem that Peter and Judas could have avoided
their respective fates ( although Peter was restored) ---Free Will
Peter say, not denying Christ, three times, still it seemed to have caught
Peter quite by surprise...even as he could see the prophecy unfold
as it was happening...
things is, would there have been any other possible outcome for
Jesus given His destiny?
Like I said, it seems very confusing and Free will , from my perspective
seems to come down to not this or that, but God or notGod...
probably too long of a response, a
nd not where you wanted to take it...
In Christ
Christine
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| User: "Ben Humphrey" |
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| Title: Re: Has this been asked before?.... |
20 Aug 2004 02:04:45 PM |
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Christine wrote:
X-No-archive: yes
"Ben Humphrey" <benhumphrey@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:412560E4.70203@frontiernet.net...
This is the question of Peter. and Judas... what thou doest do quickly.
What is to be done? And how can it be done better quickly than slowly?
OK well that was a bit egnimatic...lets' break it down...
Peter was to be sifted by Satan and he denied Christ three times
it was foretold and it happened...
Judas betrayed Jesus, and he represents I guess the unforgiveable
sin...because even as he tried to repent he died in anguish and grief...
so was there in fact a question to it at all?
it is suggested from our POV that it was a given...as if these things
were all predetermined and unavoidable...
yet this is contrasted to Jesus and His agony at Gethsemane,
where first He asks :
"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me.
Yet not as I will, but as you will."
and then coming back into the Garden again says,
"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be
taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
so we see His struggle with free will and submitting Himself to
His destiny....this is the most striking account of Jesus' humanity
----yet He had choice and will and submitted it to the Father---
therefore it would seem that Peter and Judas could have avoided
their respective fates ( although Peter was restored) ---Free Will
Peter say, not denying Christ, three times, still it seemed to have caught
Peter quite by surprise...even as he could see the prophecy unfold
as it was happening...
things is, would there have been any other possible outcome for
Jesus given His destiny?
Like I said, it seems very confusing and Free will , from my perspective
seems to come down to not this or that, but God or notGod...
probably too long of a response, a
nd not where you wanted to take it...
In Christ
Christine
How do you oppose the will of God? Satan must ultimately be absorbed
into God because God is everything? How can there be notGod?
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I
the LORD do all these things.
That's where I stumble on the question. Without Judas, there would be no
Jesus. If there is a place for Judas and Satan in God's plan, they are
ultimately used for good. Punishment (hell, separation) cannot be
eternal but ultimately restorative?
apocatástasis
APOCATÁSTASIS: (del gr. Apokatástasis, de apokathistemi,
restablecer) Fil. Vuelta de todas las cosas o de una de ellas a su
original punto de partida. // Astr. Revolución periódica de un cuerpo
celeste, al cabo de la cual se halla en su punto de partida. // (Gr.,
apokatastasis; Lat. restitutio in pristinum statum)
A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches
that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of
salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls
apocatastasis: (Greek: apo, from; kata, down; histemi, stand): The
doctrine of the final salvation of all mankind; a restoration.
I think Origen originally taught it. I also heard an interesting comment
by some old monk or other regarding this doctrine: anyone who doesn't
believe it is a fool, anybody who teaches it is an *****.
Not a challenge, just an offering of thoughts.
.
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| User: "Christine" |
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| Title: Re: Has this been asked before?.... |
20 Aug 2004 04:55:29 PM |
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X-No-archive: yes
"Ben Humphrey" <benhumphrey@aol.com> wrote in message
news:hXrVc.3304$Fi2.1690@news02.roc.ny...
How do you oppose the will of God? Satan must ultimately be absorbed
into God because God is everything? How can there be notGod?
where there is separation...
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I
the LORD do all these things.
That's where I stumble on the question. Without Judas, there would be no
Jesus. If there is a place for Judas and Satan in God's plan, they are
ultimately used for good. Punishment (hell, separation) cannot be
eternal but ultimately restorative?
that would be Peter's experience, but it wasn't Judas' experience for
Judas, at least...
but generally yes God works all things to the good for those
that love Him---to those who do not know Him/separation/
things may just happen, and the person may try to blame
themselves or adapt
The interesting question I want to come to terms with
comes from that Gethsemane scene...in close sequence
to Judas betrayal and Peter's denial...
Jesus took time out to seek the Father, before events unfolded
and He knew events would unfold as they would...
what would have happened if he did not take that time out?
now with Judas and Peter it is Jesus who tells them events would
unfold as they would for them....
one believed Jesus and thought he could not do it any differently
what if he enquired of Jesus about the matter?
one did not believe Jesus ( Peter) and did it anyway, what if he believed
what Jesus told him?
Given what Jesus said about His own destiny and his rebuke of Peter
when Peter said he would not let His death happen, He said
"get behind thee satan"...if Peter inquired about the denial
what would have happened differently?
In both cases, destiny would be played out as it was played out for Jesus...
in the Gospels it is a hopeful and sensible message that Peter is restored
and it seems like it makes sense that Judas was left in his place...
the Gospels leave one with a profound emotional intensity and absorption
that is not easily given to understanding by a dry read...they have to be
lived and experienced....
in living them I have played the roles
of the various characters, even Judas, to my shame
---and as John says:
John 21
25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written
down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the
books that would be written.
it may not be written, but where the heart is repentant, with Jesus, even
Judas was forgiven and redeemed....
so from my walk, this is one of the important reasons to believe in Jesus
to have Him teach you about God...and about your own nature...
through His love, He will give one the courage to even face when He tells
you you will be a Judas, and faith enough in His love, which has been
written on the heart, not the mind....
....that He will forgive even this much...
and you will find, after all, without knowing much at all about how it works
that it has made you a better person after all...and that God is so loving
there is nothing so fearful that we can't go and ask about first...
apocatástasis
APOCATÁSTASIS: (del gr. Apokatástasis, de apokathistemi,
restablecer) Fil. Vuelta de todas las cosas o de una de ellas a su
original punto de partida. // Astr. Revolución periódica de un cuerpo
celeste, al cabo de la cual se halla en su punto de partida. // (Gr.,
apokatastasis; Lat. restitutio in pristinum statum)
A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches
that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of
salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls
apocatastasis: (Greek: apo, from; kata, down; histemi, stand): The
doctrine of the final salvation of all mankind; a restoration.
I think Origen originally taught it. I also heard an interesting comment
by some old monk or other regarding this doctrine: anyone who doesn't
believe it is a fool, anybody who teaches it is an *****.
Not a challenge, just an offering of thoughts.
Appreciated, you help have a lovely playful thinking exercise...
its a kind of freedom...knowing I won't be tested or evaluated at
the end, just some free space to romp around in
and I thank you for that
In Christ
Christine
.
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| User: "Christine" |
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| Title: Re: Has this been asked before?.... |
20 Aug 2004 05:39:09 PM |
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X-No-archive: yes
Ben Humphrey" <benhumphrey@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:412560E4.70203@frontiernet.net...
APOCATÁSTASIS:
"A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches
that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of
salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls"
(...)
PS -I have sat at the other end of His judgement seat, and He can tell..
you things that will utterly pierce your soul and almost seem to destroy
you...but because of Christ, you see the light and that light shines on the
good and the sanctification and purifcation intended...all is not lost at
all...not by a long shot..
..cordials for drooping spirits, golden ointments to remedy and effect cures
always seem to be ready at hand...and a surprisingly great wit....
above all great encouraging love...
no one could be this honest and this loving with you...no one ever will be..
in Jesus I know God is in relationship to me as a person, as a person
Himself but above all things where God is...
I do know that the bigger judgement seems to come for those who know
His grace and mercy and neglect it...
....and does not make it a gift to others..for others...
I really do know this, that
* that* sort of thing would seem to be all the more the devil.
In Christ
Christine
.
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| User: "Ben Humphrey" |
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| Title: Re: Has this been asked before?.... |
21 Aug 2004 01:17:57 AM |
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Christine wrote:
X-No-archive: yes
Ben Humphrey" <benhumphrey@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:412560E4.70203@frontiernet.net...
APOCATÁSTASIS:
"A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches
that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of
salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls"
(...)
PS -I have sat at the other end of His judgement seat, and He can tell..
you things that will utterly pierce your soul and almost seem to destroy
you...but because of Christ, you see the light and that light shines on the
good and the sanctification and purifcation intended...all is not lost at
all...not by a long shot..
.cordials for drooping spirits, golden ointments to remedy and effect cures
always seem to be ready at hand...and a surprisingly great wit....
above all great encouraging love...
no one could be this honest and this loving with you...no one ever will be..
in Jesus I know God is in relationship to me as a person, as a person
Himself but above all things where God is...
I do know that the bigger judgement seems to come for those who know
His grace and mercy and neglect it...
...and does not make it a gift to others..for others...
I really do know this, that
* that* sort of thing would seem to be all the more the devil.
In Christ
Christine
OK, one of the most important aspects of the gospels and the passion
story to me has always been, to what extent Christ lifted himself up to
the unattainable heights of saintly godhood, and what extent he emptied
himself of his divinity, and thereby exalted man. Is he the son of God
or 'the son of man'. Is he the master to be worshipped by pathetic
sinning man, or the path to be emulated by exalted man? Depending on
which it is the quality of one's response to the passion experience, and
especially gethsemane scene is one of "oh well he transcended the human
so he is worthy of my worship, but I could never attain to that example,
it is beyond my reach. I can only worship and repent of my unworthiness
in dust and ashes' or "he walked the humble path of human suffering, and
I can walk that path, I do walk it every day, so he ennobles my
otherwise fruitless suffering." In the latter case I am invited to
identify with Jesus and 'imitate' him. But 'worship' and 'imitate' seem
to me to be in conflict. If you worship you place him above the path you
are invited to walk in imitation of him. So I saw Mel gibson's movie,
and that's how I felt. I felt, I want to be noble, suffering man. I want
to cry out with Jesus let this cup pass, and why have you abandoned me
father. I even want to be up there on the cross, in a very sick sense.
(Simone Weil once said she couldn't think about the crucifixion without
committing the sin of envy). I feel he has taken my side in a wrestling
match with fiendish bully side to God, (whose representatives are the
exacting self-righteous Pharisees), and given me strength. But God's
cause is ultimately man's cause. I just don't see them at odds. That's
what the passion means to me: the convergence of the cause of man and
God. The servant has become the equal of his master. The master has
washed the servants feet to show his negelected eminence.
But then we are just pathetic mortals, aren't we, waiting for a few
crumbs from the master's table. In the Catholic faith, presumption of
God's mercy is the first of the six sins against the holy ghost. Despair
is the second. So to assume that we are entitled to the eminence Jesus's
example grants to man is a kind of sin. Rights do not come without
obligations. The only answer to this is to actually walk in the way of
suffering, to be despised, spit upon, beaten tortured, humiliated,
mocked, laughed at. And who wants to do that? So we all understand
Peter, and even Judas sometimes. What thou doest, do quickly.
So thats where I'm coming from, Christine. Sorry to blather on, or
selfishly vent, it might be pointless, screaming into the void, or not.
There is that fundamental ambiguity in the gospel narrative, but you're
not just talking about "the bible as literature" are you?
Thanks for sharing and especially listening,
.
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| User: "Christine" |
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| Title: Re: Has this been asked before?.... |
21 Aug 2004 03:03:22 AM |
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X-No-archive: yes
"Ben Humphrey" <benhumphrey@aol.com> wrote in message
news:pOBVc.1732$gk.792@news01.roc.ny...
Christine wrote:
X-No-archive: yes
Ben Humphrey" <benhumphrey@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:412560E4.70203@frontiernet.net...
APOCATÁSTASIS:
"A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches
that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of
salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls"
(...)
PS -I have sat at the other end of His judgement seat, and He can tell..
you things that will utterly pierce your soul and almost seem to destroy
you...but because of Christ, you see the light and that light shines on
the
good and the sanctification and purifcation intended...all is not lost
at
all...not by a long shot..
.cordials for drooping spirits, golden ointments to remedy and effect
cures
always seem to be ready at hand...and a surprisingly great wit....
above all great encouraging love...
no one could be this honest and this loving with you...no one ever will
be..
in Jesus I know God is in relationship to me as a person, as a person
Himself but above all things where God is...
I do know that the bigger judgement seems to come for those who know
His grace and mercy and neglect it...
...and does not make it a gift to others..for others...
I really do know this, that
* that* sort of thing would seem to be all the more the devil.
In Christ
Christine
OK, one of the most important aspects of the gospels and the passion
story to me has always been, to what extent Christ lifted himself up to
the unattainable heights of saintly godhood, and what extent he emptied
himself of his divinity, and thereby exalted man. Is he the son of God
or 'the son of man'. Is he the master to be worshipped by pathetic
sinning man, or the path to be emulated by exalted man? Depending on
which it is the quality of one's response to the passion experience, and
especially gethsemane scene is one of "oh well he transcended the human
so he is worthy of my worship, but I could never attain to that example,
it is beyond my reach. I can only worship and repent of my unworthiness
in dust and ashes' or "he walked the humble path of human suffering, and
I can walk that path, I do walk it every day, so he ennobles my
otherwise fruitless suffering." In the latter case I am invited to
identify with Jesus and 'imitate' him. But 'worship' and 'imitate' seem
to me to be in conflict. If you worship you place him above the path you
are invited to walk in imitation of him. So I saw Mel gibson's movie,
and that's how I felt. I felt, I want to be noble, suffering man. I want
to cry out with Jesus let this cup pass, and why have you abandoned me
father. I even want to be up there on the cross, in a very sick sense.
(Simone Weil once said she couldn't think about the crucifixion without
committing the sin of envy). I feel he has taken my side in a wrestling
match with fiendish bully side to God, (whose representatives are the
exacting self-righteous Pharisees), and given me strength. But God's
cause is ultimately man's cause. I just don't see them at odds. That's
what the passion means to me: the convergence of the cause of man and
God. The servant has become the equal of his master. The master has
washed the servants feet to show his negelected eminence.
But then we are just pathetic mortals, aren't we, waiting for a few
crumbs from the master's table. In the Catholic faith, presumption of
God's mercy is the first of the six sins against the holy ghost. Despair
is the second. So to assume that we are entitled to the eminence Jesus's
example grants to man is a kind of sin. Rights do not come without
obligations. The only answer to this is to actually walk in the way of
suffering, to be despised, spit upon, beaten tortured, humiliated,
mocked, laughed at. And who wants to do that? So we all understand
Peter, and even Judas sometimes. What thou doest, do quickly.
So thats where I'm coming from, Christine. Sorry to blather on, or
selfishly vent, it might be pointless, screaming into the void, or not.
There is that fundamental ambiguity in the gospel narrative, but you're
not just talking about "the bible as literature" are you?
Thanks for sharing and especially listening,
woof!
something to really think about, and that is what I want to do
I will return in say a week--I probably won't have answers, but
hopefully whatever I come back with I can will show you I have
thought about it too---I have a very good feeling that you have
thought about more than I have already many times over...
I like stuff like this Ben, makes me go to God...for wisdom I know I
just do not have
so thanks...
In Christ
Christine
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| User: "Ben Humphrey" |
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| Title: Re: Has this been asked before?.... |
19 Aug 2004 09:25:03 PM |
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Christine wrote:
X-No-archive: yes
and is there an answer that doesn't result in a huge thesis?
New stage ...
I feel caused by the future, all predetermined like...
I used to be like ok this happened and I did that,
and action reaction, one reacts to other events...
went through a mystic stage where I guess I would
"read" events for guidance, and God would console with
mercy and that mercy would mostly be justice, in my mind...
...like an event would happen and I would do the right
thing
and it almost seemed like the event created the virtue in me
but nonetheless I always held it to be virtue...
( yet if say compassion and love are truth and virtuous truths
they do not come into existence because of the circumstance)
like you do the right thing and later there is a ratification
by creation that justice was served...
..an understanding on some level of God, but God reacting to
my actions
now it has been turned totally upside down, and its not God reacting
to me, but like me being totally written in full, but getting the scripts
daily, not really understanding the plot of that day, but at day's end
really understanding....
like if I was still a mystic, well one day all of creation telling you you
are wrong and the next day winking and smiling at you like angels
were protecting you the whole time
...and then reading that you were just fulfilling your part, that you
did not do the right thing but were taught and protected and consoled...
and finding mercy not to serve the end means of justice
( for deserved mercy is just justice) but
finding to your horror that you chose all the wrong moves
did all the wrong things and received mercy, great rich,
undeserved mercy...
but to find that the script had you play the part to learn that
and you needed to learn that ...
you still feel bad for making the wrong choices
and doing the wrong things
but incredibly happy! amazingly happy...
so from these eyes, and I reckon they aren't philosophers eyes
at all...but to me now this predetermation which seems quite
solid now, to me...kind of throws a wrench in free will...
however I am thinking that for me Free will still is evident
in the choice for or against God....
..somehow someway even tho everything seems like
it has already happened...
ok well, thanks for your time
In Christ
Christine
This is the question of Peter. and Judas... what thou doest do quickly.
What is to be done? And how can it be done better quickly than slowly?
.
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