| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Ilya the Bat" |
| Date: |
25 Sep 2005 12:49:51 PM |
| Object: |
How to prevent abusive marriages |
There are many women who believe that they either deserve to be abused,
or that they must sacrifice themselves.
The current methods of treatment are based on enhancing their
self-esteem and helping them to realize that they deserve better.
I have a better idea, and one that is less costly and less
time-consuming. It is a piece of logotherapy, or cognitive therapy,
that would take five minutes rather than a year to do, and that is:
Ask the woman, "What kind of father would you like your children to
have?"
If the woman believes that she needs to sacrifice herself, then it can
be brought to bear that her belief in self-sacrifice does not extend to
the life she would bring into the world, and that while she has a right
to sacrifice herself she has no right to sacrifice her children. Thus,
it can be told that the woman, if she indeed believes in
self-sacrifice, must sacrifice her own ideas and her own feelings and
her own psychology for the benefit of her children, and that means
finding a man who would be good to her children. This means that he
would not be abusive to their children - and likewise not abusive to
her.
If the woman believes that she is a bad person and deserves to be
abused, then the same question bears asking. Whatever person she thinks
she is - and whatever she believes she deserves - does not extend to
her children, who are innocent and have done nothing to merit whatever
she thinks she deserves. It can be further expounded that it is our
actions rather than our supposed personalities that make what we are,
and that if she wants to redeem herself from being a bad person then
the first thing to do is to make sure that she offers a good
environment to the life she brings into the world, and the life over
which she has the most control. And it can likewise be stated that if
she brings in the life in a bad environment then she will in fact be a
bad person, and be a bad person furthermore irredeemably and in a way
that horribly impacts the life over which she has the most impact.
In both cases, instead of the tedious self-esteem building procedure, a
piece of thought - to think about her children first and herself second
- can defeat the entrapment and nastiness that afflict the lives of
millions of women.
This procedure is far less expensive, and, in appealing to the woman's
mind rather than her emotions, is ultimately more respectful of the
woman who hears it.
Ilya Shambat.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
25 Sep 2005 05:04:27 PM |
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"Ilya the Bat" <ibshambat2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127670591.893153.243900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There are many women who believe that they either deserve to be abused,
or that they must sacrifice themselves.
The current methods of treatment are based on enhancing their
self-esteem and helping them to realize that they deserve better.
SNIP
This procedure is far less expensive, and, in appealing to the woman's
mind rather than her emotions, is ultimately more respectful of the
woman who hears it.
Ilya Shambat.
Individuals are attracted to each other for many reasons. The overriding
reason however, is to connect with their "missing aspects".They seek in
their partner what they have yet to find within themselves.
An abused child, invariably connects with an abusing mate. Just one of a
whole range of "opposites attracting".The dance of synchronicity.
Until the individual recognises this reality, their path becomes
progressively more traumatic.
BOfL
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| User: "turtoni" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
25 Sep 2005 05:21:05 PM |
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"Brian Fletcher" <brianf8@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:L9FZe.14527$0E5.10779@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Ilya the Bat" <ibshambat2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127670591.893153.243900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There are many women who believe that they either deserve to be abused,
or that they must sacrifice themselves.
The current methods of treatment are based on enhancing their
self-esteem and helping them to realize that they deserve better.
SNIP
This procedure is far less expensive, and, in appealing to the woman's
mind rather than her emotions, is ultimately more respectful of the
woman who hears it.
Ilya Shambat.
Individuals are attracted to each other for many reasons. The overriding
reason however, is to connect with their "missing aspects".They seek in
their partner what they have yet to find within themselves.
An abused child, invariably connects with an abusing mate. Just one of a
whole range of "opposites attracting".The dance of synchronicity.
Until the individual recognises this reality, their path becomes
progressively more traumatic.
BOfL
better to find somebody that brings out the best in _you_
turtoni
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
25 Sep 2005 07:32:09 PM |
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"turtoni" <turtoni@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:p_Odncu-s6VNv6reRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
"Brian Fletcher" <brianf8@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:L9FZe.14527$0E5.10779@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Ilya the Bat" <ibshambat2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127670591.893153.243900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There are many women who believe that they either deserve to be abused,
or that they must sacrifice themselves.
The current methods of treatment are based on enhancing their
self-esteem and helping them to realize that they deserve better.
SNIP
This procedure is far less expensive, and, in appealing to the woman's
mind rather than her emotions, is ultimately more respectful of the
woman who hears it.
Ilya Shambat.
Individuals are attracted to each other for many reasons. The overriding
reason however, is to connect with their "missing aspects".They seek in
their partner what they have yet to find within themselves.
An abused child, invariably connects with an abusing mate. Just one of a
whole range of "opposites attracting".The dance of synchronicity.
Until the individual recognises this reality, their path becomes
progressively more traumatic.
BOfL
better to find somebody that brings out the best in _you_
turtoni
Great. That solves all the traumas in potential relationships.
Care to share how one goes about this?
BOfL
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| User: "Drew Hefner" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
26 Sep 2005 03:57:29 AM |
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There is just enough knowledge in this post to have the potential to
cause a great deal of damage, especially to those who nothing other
than they want to learn, and learn from someone who knows,
intuitively-yes, but also, instinctually, trust or not to trust the
person who appears to be helping.
As anyone who has attempted CBT will have to admit, at one time or
another, they find the old habits acting themselves out in new and
different behaviors but all manifest in the same childhood traumatic
injury or experiences. If it were this simple, I would be doing
backflips and handstands up Main Street in January.
And, even though they might be aware of their particular psychological
tendencies, they are powerless and blind in the face of any attempt to
stop the truckload of traumatic injuries that betrays most all of us
from our childhood.
We assume that just because something didn't happen "to us" but maybe
happened to our brother or sister, directly in the room, or the next
adjacent room, then there was no injury to child who physically was not
subjected to the "injury" or whatever it was that would be considered
the "injuring experience."
Believe me, when you are left to watch or hear, alone or with another
(family member), while a sibling is abused, it burns an indelible
memory of fear, guilt, shame and anger on your brain. Many studies
attempt to show that the "traumatic memory" is actually worse for that
person who lived thru the incident as a 'witness' but was not the
traditional 'victim' (as we identify victim).
(by 'abuse' my definition = "any experience under which you did not
participate of your own free act and will, and further, where your
feelings were never considered, cast aside, minimized, devalued,
invalidated, or otherwise considered inferior due the nature of
origin.")
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
26 Sep 2005 06:01:47 PM |
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"Drew Hefner" <drewt@att.net> wrote in message
news:1127725049.824212.132700@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There is just enough knowledge in this post to have the potential to
cause a great deal of damage, especially to those who nothing other
than they want to learn, and learn from someone who knows,
intuitively-yes, but also, instinctually, trust or not to trust the
person who appears to be helping.
SNIP
(by 'abuse' my definition = "any experience under which you did not
participate of your own free act and will, and further, where your
feelings were never considered, cast aside, minimized, devalued,
invalidated, or otherwise considered inferior due the nature of
origin.")
Your last paragraph indicates 100% have been abused. You have described
infancy through to adolescence.
Of course the majority adapt in a healthy manner.
BOfL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
26 Sep 2005 10:16:37 AM |
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Brian Fletcher wrote:
Individuals are attracted to each other for many reasons. The overriding
reason however, is to connect with their "missing aspects".They seek in
their partner what they have yet to find within themselves.
I don't know who came up with that idea, but I can think of many other
reasons people connect.
Some may just like the other person. Others like qualities that the
other person has, that have nothing to do with either qualities they
have or qualities they wish to have.
A feminine woman may want a masculine man, without herself having any
interest in developing masculine qualities (and without having
masculine qualities as anything she either is missing or wishes to find
in herself).
You appear to come from the perspective that everyone is everything in
themselves, and I find that perspective to be both fallacious and
solipsistic.
An abused child, invariably connects with an abusing mate.
Invariably? Hardly.
BrendaLee, who used to post on the Usenet, underwent horrible abuse in
her childhood, but in her adult life consistently connected with men
who treated her very well.
Another woman I know, whose childhood had been idyllic, kept connecting
with people who mistreated her.
I have two counterexamples to refute your absolutist statement.
Try again.
Just one of a
whole range of "opposites attracting".The dance of synchronicity.
Synchronicity? Do you know what synchronicity means?
Until the individual recognises this reality, their path becomes
progressively more traumatic.
You a Buddhist?
Each person is everything contained in themselves?
I simply don't buy into that ideology. It is solipsism.
I'm not Marilyn Monroe or Mike Tyson, and I'd rather have a Marilyn
Monroe in my life than try to be her.
Ilya Shambat.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
26 Sep 2005 06:31:29 PM |
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<ilya_shambat2004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127747797.891070.208210@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Individuals are attracted to each other for many reasons. The overriding
reason however, is to connect with their "missing aspects".They seek in
their partner what they have yet to find within themselves.
I don't know who came up with that idea, but I can think of many other
reasons people connect.
Like being of the same species! Of course there are many reasons. If you
absorbe what I wrote, missing aspects doesnt mean "all aspects".
Some may just like the other person. Others like qualities that the
other person has, that have nothing to do with either qualities they
have or qualities they wish to have.
More to do with friendships than partnerships.
A feminine woman may want a masculine man, without herself having any
interest in developing masculine qualities (and without having
masculine qualities as anything she either is missing or wishes to find
in herself).
She may not consciously "want", but consciousness expansion always takes us
each to areas we are not aware of at the time.
How many know the difference between male/masculine and femimine/female for
example?
You appear to come from the perspective that everyone is everything in
themselves, and I find that perspective to be both fallacious and
solipsistic.
More accurately "everyone is on the road of discovery of self".
The world is full of solipsists.
An abused child, invariably connects with an abusing mate.
Invariably? Hardly.
It may not appear so, because only extreme cases usually come to our
attention. Abuse takes on many levels.
BrendaLee, who used to post on the Usenet, underwent horrible abuse in
her childhood, but in her adult life consistently connected with men
who treated her very well.
Then she grew through the experience.
A close frind of mine had a very abused childhood (sexually and
emotionally), married a man who continued to "provide", she had two children
who, befor she "broke through", became drug addicts. She now "knows how it
works" and realises that wisdom comes only through hindsight. She is now
able to work meaningfully (positively) with her children, now 20 and 22.
Another woman I know, whose childhood had been idyllic, kept connecting
with people who mistreated her.
Confirms my view. She "sought experiences that were foreign to her".
I have two counterexamples to refute your absolutist statement.
Try again.
Re read.....
Just one of a
whole range of "opposites attracting".The dance of synchronicity.
Synchronicity? Do you know what synchronicity means?
Metaphysically or physically? You dont understand the former, based on the
nature of your argument.
Until the individual recognises this reality, their path becomes
progressively more traumatic.
You a Buddhist?
Your Buddist perception being stimulated?
Each person is everything contained in themselves?
I simply don't buy into that ideology. It is solipsism.
What idealogy?
I know of a "couple of couples" where each are "self realised". Being in
their company is awesome. There are some who are aquainted with them who
become very uneasy. Their "temporary comfort zone" is disrupted.
As I said, the world is full of solipsists.
I'm not Marilyn Monroe or Mike Tyson, and I'd rather have a Marilyn
Monroe in my life than try to be her.
Seriously, if you "had her" what within you would be fulfilled? And if not
"within" then where?
Tyson and Robin Givens are excellent examples of "the way it is".
BOfL
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| User: "DrEvilHypnosis" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
28 Sep 2005 01:43:28 AM |
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wrote:
< SNIP >
What I want to know is how can we prevent this smug, self-satisfied
example of poor high-school education in the U.S. from abusing the
Newgroups he spams?
Any ideas?
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
25 Sep 2005 01:10:02 PM |
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What is an abusive marriage?
What's the difference (is there, from your point of view, a difference)
between an abusive marriage and a relationship with a more dominant and
a more submissive partner?
Up to what point do you consider relationships like that being acceptable?
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| User: "William Blake Jr." |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
25 Sep 2005 02:58:12 PM |
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AE wrote:
What is an abusive marriage?
Where someone is trying to destroy the other person.
What's the difference (is there, from your point of view, a difference)
between an abusive marriage and a relationship with a more dominant and
a more submissive partner?
Yes. In an abusive marriage, someone is trying to destroy the other
person, physically or psychologically.
In dominant-submissive, the power is unbalanced, but there is basic
love and agreement as to the roles.
Up to what point do you consider relationships like that being acceptable?
See above.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
26 Sep 2005 01:03:03 PM |
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William Blake Jr. wrote:
AE wrote:
What is an abusive marriage?
Where someone is trying to destroy the other person.
OK
What's the difference (is there, from your point of view, a difference)
between an abusive marriage and a relationship with a more dominant and
a more submissive partner?
Yes. In an abusive marriage, someone is trying to destroy the other
person, physically or psychologically.
Could you define what is psychological destruction? I'd guess there are
many different definitions around ...
In dominant-submissive, the power is unbalanced, but there is basic
love and agreement as to the roles.
I'd guess most relationships are more or less unbalanced, it's just a
question of the degree.
...
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
27 Sep 2005 04:17:22 PM |
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AE wrote:
Yes. In an abusive marriage, someone is trying to destroy the other
person, physically or psychologically.
Could you define what is psychological destruction? I'd guess there are
many different definitions around ...
I guess the best definition is given by Tool,
"I will find a center in you,
I will chew it up and leave."
Basically, it means attacking what is important to the person, what
that person most values and holds most close, what the person is most
proud of, what motivates the person, and what is at the core of the
person's mind and heart.
It means attempting to break the person's spirit, but also to break
what makes the person's spirit. Usually with the purpose to make them
submit, but also frequently out of decision that the person is one's
enemy.
In dominant-submissive, the power is unbalanced, but there is basic
love and agreement as to the roles.
I'd guess most relationships are more or less unbalanced, it's just a
question of the degree.
To me, what balance of power exists in the relationship is a matter to
be determined by the two parties. All attempts to either claim that
equality or balance in power is what makes a relationship, or that
submission-domination is what makes a relationship, are guided not by
goodwill or wisdom but by ideology and as such are irrelevant to the
purpose of making possible relationships worth having.
For people to be caring, compassionate, giving and understanding to one
another, is a far more important goal, and one that in the cases of
successful relationships I have seen goes far longer toward making
possible good relationships, whatever the balance of power the
relationship may have.
Ilya SHambat.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
28 Sep 2005 12:59:32 PM |
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wrote:
AE wrote:
...
Could you define what is psychological destruction? I'd guess there are
many different definitions around ...
I guess the best definition is given by Tool,
"I will find a center in you,
I will chew it up and leave."
Basically, it means attacking what is important to the person, what
that person most values and holds most close, what the person is most
proud of, what motivates the person, and what is at the core of the
person's mind and heart.
That's part of a strategy for menticide, but for example it's not part
of the BITE model.
Do you consider mental control destructive?
...
I'd guess most relationships are more or less unbalanced, it's just a
question of the degree.
To me, what balance of power exists in the relationship is a matter to
be determined by the two parties.
Fully agreed.
...
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| User: "Wordsmith" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
25 Sep 2005 03:22:45 PM |
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The best way to prevent an abusive marriage is as follows: don't marry
an abusive person. Simple.
W : )
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| User: "caesarjbsquitti" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
25 Sep 2005 03:27:16 PM |
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First error is to polarize the issue female victims and male abusers; a
little more balance and fairness in your approach. Cult-feminists
strive to destroy the family, by labelling everything as abuse...even
sex !
Second error is defining 'abuse'...the term has lost its
meaning...since no one, no spouse is perfect, anything non-perfect can
be defined as 'abusive'...
There are alot of games being played out there and the 'abuse game'
appears to have been corrupted...
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
26 Sep 2005 10:18:33 AM |
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caesarjbsquitti wrote:
First error is to polarize the issue female victims and male abusers; a
little more balance and fairness in your approach. Cult-feminists
strive to destroy the family, by labelling everything as abuse...even
sex !
Second error is defining 'abuse'...the term has lost its
meaning...since no one, no spouse is perfect, anything non-perfect can
be defined as 'abusive'...
There are alot of games being played out there and the 'abuse game'
appears to have been corrupted...
Here is how I define abuse:
ATTEMPTING TO DESTROY OR GRAVELY INJURE THE OTHER PERSON, EITHER
PHYSICALLY OR PSYCHOLOGICALLY.
Quarreling and anger will take place in any relationship and do not
qualify as abuse.
Ilya Shambat.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
26 Sep 2005 01:03:40 PM |
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wrote:
...
ATTEMPTING TO DESTROY OR GRAVELY INJURE THE OTHER PERSON, EITHER
PHYSICALLY OR PSYCHOLOGICALLY.
...
What's psychological injury?
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| User: "Tracy" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
29 Sep 2005 03:34:19 AM |
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"AE" <hidden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dh9d5r$tlh$00$2@news.t-online.com...
ilya_shambat2004@yahoo.com wrote:
...
ATTEMPTING TO DESTROY OR GRAVELY INJURE THE OTHER PERSON, EITHER
PHYSICALLY OR PSYCHOLOGICALLY.
...
What's psychological injury?
Coercion and control of another through verbal and non-verbal manipulation.
Threatening or intimidating behaviour; criticism, insults, shouting at,
ignoring or publicly humiliating someone.
We get to the "self-fulfilling prophecy" if we are told or shown enough
times, that we are worthless in every way.
Psychological abuse is harder to recognise because there are no physical
scars produced. And in alot of cases it is harder to bear than physical
beatings.
Examples of psychological abuse:
Ignoring your wishes;
Making you feel guilty;
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
Ignoring personal boundaries;
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
Making you feel sad or afraid.
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| User: "andy-k" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
29 Sep 2005 06:46:12 AM |
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"Tracy" wrote
<snip>
Examples of psychological abuse:
Ignoring your wishes;
Insisting that somebody comply with my
wishes is the same as imposing demands.
Better to minimize my expectations than to impose demands.
Making you feel guilty;
Nobody can make me feel guilty without my cooperation,
and I choose not to cooperate.
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
Barring extraordinary circumstances like abduction,
I am the final arbiter of who I choose to spend time with.
Ignoring personal boundaries;
Too nebulous to comment on.
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
I don't consider my opinions so important
that others should take an interest in them.
Feel free to dismiss everything I'm saying here.
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
Cowering in the face of hostility is the intention,
and compliance is a very slippery slope.
I can cooperate and thereby reward and reinforce the unwanted behavior,
I can retaliate and thereby escalate and protract the conflict,
I can ignore the unwanted behavior and thereby withhold the reward,
or I can leave.
As far as I'm concerned the first two are out of the question.
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
Compliance in the face of hostility is a very slippery slope.
Making you feel sad or afraid.
Nobody can make me feel sad without my cooperation,
and I choose not to cooperate.
Compliance in the face of hostility is a very slippery slope.
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| User: "Tracy" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
29 Sep 2005 07:30:16 AM |
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"andy-k" <spam.free@last> wrote in message
news:8uQ_e.3031$9l4.2911@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
"Tracy" wrote
<snip>
Examples of psychological abuse:
Ignoring your wishes;
Insisting that somebody comply with my
wishes is the same as imposing demands.
Better to minimize my expectations than to impose demands.
Making you feel guilty;
Nobody can make me feel guilty without my cooperation,
and I choose not to cooperate.
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
Barring extraordinary circumstances like abduction,
I am the final arbiter of who I choose to spend time with.
Ignoring personal boundaries;
Too nebulous to comment on.
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
I don't consider my opinions so important
that others should take an interest in them.
Feel free to dismiss everything I'm saying here.
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
Cowering in the face of hostility is the intention,
and compliance is a very slippery slope.
I can cooperate and thereby reward and reinforce the unwanted behavior,
I can retaliate and thereby escalate and protract the conflict,
I can ignore the unwanted behavior and thereby withhold the reward,
or I can leave.
As far as I'm concerned the first two are out of the question.
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
Compliance in the face of hostility is a very slippery slope.
Making you feel sad or afraid.
Nobody can make me feel sad without my cooperation,
and I choose not to cooperate.
Compliance in the face of hostility is a very slippery slope.
Yes, the choice is there - that we can take responsbility for our choices -
I agree completely. But some people do not see/or are not aware of the
choices.
Also, does a child have the capacity to make these choices if the
controller/manipulator is a grown up?
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| User: "andy-k" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
29 Sep 2005 12:39:57 PM |
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"Tracy" wrote
<snip>
Also, does a child have the capacity to make these
choices if the controller/manipulator is a grown up?
That's why there are laws in place to protect children, notwithstanding the
fact that such laws can never be satisfactorily formulated nor upheld.
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| User: "Tracy" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
29 Sep 2005 12:57:24 PM |
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"andy-k" <spam.free@last> wrote in message
news:NFV_e.4096$hP.2543@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
"Tracy" wrote
<snip>
Also, does a child have the capacity to make these
choices if the controller/manipulator is a grown up?
That's why there are laws in place to protect children, notwithstanding
the fact that such laws can never be satisfactorily formulated nor upheld.
Then we pray that the child, on entering adulthood, realises they can make
choices and not repeat the behaviour of abuse done unto them.
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| User: "andy-k" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
29 Sep 2005 02:02:06 PM |
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"Tracy" wrote
"andy-k" wrote
"Tracy" wrote
<snip>
Also, does a child have the capacity to make these
choices if the controller/manipulator is a grown up?
That's why there are laws in place to protect children, notwithstanding
the fact that such laws can never be satisfactorily formulated nor
upheld.
Then we pray that the child, on entering adulthood, realises they can make
choices and not repeat the behaviour of abuse done unto them.
Praying won't change anything. The world isn't the way we wish it to be --
it never was and it never will be, no matter how hard we try to make it so.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
29 Sep 2005 03:23:48 PM |
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Tracy wrote:
...
But some people do not see/or are not aware of the choices.
Most people don't see what is actually possible.
Also, does a child have the capacity to make these choices if the
controller/manipulator is a grown up?
Does an adult have the capacity if the controller/menipulator actually
knows what he does?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
15 Oct 2005 06:13:18 PM |
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Ilya wrote:-
I guess the best definition is given by Tool,
"I will find a center in you,
I will chew it up and leave."
That sounds about right.
Basically, it means attacking what is important to the person, what
that person most values and holds most close, what the person is most
proud of, what motivates the person, and what is at the core of the
person's mind and heart.
Relationships are strange animals. Some people in relationships
encourage shows of possessiveness by aggravating the partner. Love
seems
to have laws unto itself within some relationships it seems.
Wordworth wrote:-
The best way to prevent an abusive marriage is as follows: don't marry
an abusive person. Simple.
Not so simple. I married someone who became threatening as soon as I
had our child. I had years of fear. The fights wern't so scary, you
know - the smashed dishes, doors off hinges, the threats of suicide
and isolation, it was the fear for the kids. We were both offered
the same job (hes now on 50k per year)but I stayed at home be mom &
freelance.No problem, but he soon resented me working at all. When I
ripped up a contract for =A3500...that was my wake up call. He wasn't
giving me any housekeeping.BOLLOCKS TO FEMINISM)At the womens refuge
one woman was murdered by her ex-husband, another woman was obviously
winding her man up...you know you just can't be sure about womens
motives for screaming abuse. I ever am. I'm ALWAYS wary of women who
preach feminism when they are essentially androgenous or childless.
One thing is for sure, the kids come first for some women.Needless to
say he abducted the kids to another country. But its been as bad.
The good news is that the relationship that came after is perfect,
perfect father to His child (that makes me happiest)and he comes
round with financial help and I'm happy to sew his buttons on and
feed him on Sundays, whatever, ya know? :)
caesarjbsquitti wrote:-
First error is to polarize the issue female victims and male abusers; a
little more balance and fairness in your approach. Cult-feminists
strive to destroy the family, by labelling everything as abuse...even
sex !
Well,I think there is a polarisation of the sexes. I think it can run
both ways (my mother has outlived 3 husbands), but, I do think men are
more aggressive. I think the problem is educating women not in
asserting
themselves in a so called'mans world'but in asserting themselves and
recognising their strengths in being female. One of the hardest things
for me to do was to adjust myself to motherhood after working as hard
'as a man' with male values. That was Hell. But it was heaven also.
Tracy Wrote:-
Ignoring your wishes;
Making you feel guilty;
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
Ignoring personal boundaries;
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
Making you feel sad or afraid.
Aknowledged, but everybody has to face this all their lives and no one
is going to pick you up like they once did when you were a baby and
make it all go away.
Finally. There is an illusiory sense of security and love in possessive
relationships. An example I see as abuse against men is the insistance
of some women that their men be sterilized. If that was a feminist
issue the world would stop.
N=2E
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| User: "Tracy" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
17 Oct 2005 02:25:58 AM |
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<mimo_545@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129417998.341976.8870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Ilya wrote:-
I guess the best definition is given by Tool,
"I will find a center in you,
I will chew it up and leave."
That sounds about right.
Basically, it means attacking what is important to the person, what
that person most values and holds most close, what the person is most
proud of, what motivates the person, and what is at the core of the
person's mind and heart.
Relationships are strange animals. Some people in relationships
encourage shows of possessiveness by aggravating the partner. Love
seems
to have laws unto itself within some relationships it seems.
Wordworth wrote:-
The best way to prevent an abusive marriage is as follows: don't marry
an abusive person. Simple.
Not so simple. I married someone who became threatening as soon as I
had our child. I had years of fear. The fights wern't so scary, you
know - the smashed dishes, doors off hinges, the threats of suicide
and isolation, it was the fear for the kids. We were both offered
the same job (hes now on 50k per year)but I stayed at home be mom &
freelance.No problem, but he soon resented me working at all. When I
ripped up a contract for £500...that was my wake up call. He wasn't
giving me any housekeeping.BOLLOCKS TO FEMINISM)At the womens refuge
one woman was murdered by her ex-husband, another woman was obviously
winding her man up...you know you just can't be sure about womens
motives for screaming abuse. I ever am. I'm ALWAYS wary of women who
preach feminism when they are essentially androgenous or childless.
One thing is for sure, the kids come first for some women.Needless to
say he abducted the kids to another country. But its been as bad.
The good news is that the relationship that came after is perfect,
perfect father to His child (that makes me happiest)and he comes
round with financial help and I'm happy to sew his buttons on and
feed him on Sundays, whatever, ya know? :)
caesarjbsquitti wrote:-
First error is to polarize the issue female victims and male abusers; a
little more balance and fairness in your approach. Cult-feminists
strive to destroy the family, by labelling everything as abuse...even
sex !
Well,I think there is a polarisation of the sexes. I think it can run
both ways (my mother has outlived 3 husbands), but, I do think men are
more aggressive. I think the problem is educating women not in
asserting
themselves in a so called'mans world'but in asserting themselves and
recognising their strengths in being female.
Totally agree :))
Tracy Wrote:-
Ignoring your wishes;
Making you feel guilty;
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
Ignoring personal boundaries;
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
Making you feel sad or afraid.
Aknowledged, but everybody has to face this all their lives and no one
is going to pick you up like they once did when you were a baby and
make it all go away.
Yes, and that list is one that is often found in your formative years.
Whereby you end up repeating the pattern of accepting the behaviour in all
walks of life.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
29 Sep 2005 03:18:59 PM |
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Tracy wrote:
AE wrote:
...
What's psychological injury?
Coercion and control of another through verbal and non-verbal manipulation.
Why? Manipulation takes place all the time. We are manipulated by the
media, just as an example, but I don't feel injured by them.
Threatening or intimidating behaviour;
I might accept this as something causing injury, since it causes
negative emotions that might be as strong as physical pain.
criticism,
Why criticism?
insults, shouting at, ignoring or publicly humiliating someone.
This I might accept, too - dependent of the circumstances.
We get to the "self-fulfilling prophecy" if we are told or shown enough
times, that we are worthless in every way.
Psychological abuse is harder to recognise because there are no physical
scars produced. And in alot of cases it is harder to bear than physical
beatings.
Accepted.
Examples of psychological abuse:
Ignoring your wishes;
Sounds like normal life :-/
Making you feel guilty;
except you are guilty
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
depends on the context, but ok
Ignoring personal boundaries;
I wouldn't ignore them, but I tend to remove them over time.
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
Which one do you prefer? Me ignoring them or openly dismiss them?
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
That's at least bad style.
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
That's anyway not a good idea, since it causes opposition.
Making you feel sad or afraid.
Depends on the context.
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| User: "Tracy" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
30 Sep 2005 03:00:47 AM |
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"AE" <hidden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dhhi7g$smb$02$1@news.t-online.com...
Tracy wrote:
AE wrote:
...
What's psychological injury?
Coercion and control of another through verbal and non-verbal
manipulation.
Why? Manipulation takes place all the time. We are manipulated by the
media, just as an example, but I don't feel injured by them.
Two examples of verbal manipulation:
1) This washing powder *will* make your clothes smell fresher - I am
assuming this doesnt injure somebody.
2) You have to be the ugliest person I know. If you leave me, NO-ONE else
will want you - tell that enough times to somebody with no knowledge of
choices.
Threatening or intimidating behaviour;
I might accept this as something causing injury, since it causes negative
emotions that might be as strong as physical pain.
criticism,
Why criticism?
Normally, its constant criticism in cases of negative manipulation. This
can wear a person down, if they arent aware of the choices.
insults, shouting at, ignoring or publicly humiliating someone.
This I might accept, too - dependent of the circumstances.
We get to the "self-fulfilling prophecy" if we are told or shown enough
times, that we are worthless in every way.
Psychological abuse is harder to recognise because there are no physical
scars produced. And in alot of cases it is harder to bear than physical
beatings.
Accepted.
Examples of psychological abuse:
Ignoring your wishes;
Sounds like normal life :-/
1) I wish you'd stop belittling me in front of other people.
2) Oh come on, its only a joke - I find it funny. You get so uptight about
the silliest of things!
Making you feel guilty;
except you are guilty
Yep! Guilt is destructive - it stops us from being aware of the choices we
can make. It is also the most used form of manipulation done by most
people - especially the ones who are in denial that they negatively
manipulate in the first place.
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
depends on the context, but ok
Just another form of control. The manipulator may be showing classic signs
of insecurity at this stage, but if it gets the desired results from the
manipulated, its a bonus.
Ignoring personal boundaries;
I wouldn't ignore them, but I tend to remove them over time.
??
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
Which one do you prefer? Me ignoring them or openly dismiss them?
None - they both give the same feeling of worthlessness to somebody
attempting communication and or attempting the right to tell somebody that
it hurts.
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
That's at least bad style.
Its intimidation.
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
That's anyway not a good idea, since it causes opposition.
The manipulated person is showing signs of strength, the manipulator must
get the control back.
Making you feel sad or afraid.
Depends on the context.
All the above can make a person sad and afraid - another result of a barrage
of negative manipulations.
Do you have a compassionate interest in this, btw?
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
30 Sep 2005 01:04:06 PM |
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Tracy wrote:
AE wrote:
Tracy wrote:
AE wrote:
...
What's psychological injury?
Coercion and control of another through verbal and non-verbal
manipulation.
Why? Manipulation takes place all the time. We are manipulated by the
media, just as an example, but I don't feel injured by them.
Two examples of verbal manipulation:
1) This washing powder *will* make your clothes smell fresher - I am
assuming this doesnt injure somebody.
2) You have to be the ugliest person I know. If you leave me, NO-ONE else
will want you - tell that enough times to somebody with no knowledge of
choices.
So it's not the manipulation as such, but the resulting emotions?
...
criticism,
Why criticism?
Normally, its constant criticism in cases of negative manipulation. This
can wear a person down, if they arent aware of the choices.
I don't think this is useful, if one doesn't offer choices.
...
Ignoring your wishes;
Sounds like normal life :-/
1) I wish you'd stop belittling me in front of other people.
2) Oh come on, its only a joke - I find it funny. You get so uptight about
the silliest of things!
That's not "ignoring your wishes" ...
Making you feel guilty;
except you are guilty
Yep! Guilt is destructive - it stops us from being aware of the choices we
can make. It is also the most used form of manipulation done by most
people - especially the ones who are in denial that they negatively
manipulate in the first place.
On the other hand, guilt is one of the mechanisms that make us follow rules.
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
depends on the context, but ok
Just another form of control. The manipulator may be showing classic signs
of insecurity at this stage, but if it gets the desired results from the
manipulated, its a bonus.
Possessiveness might be required to control the environment ...
Ignoring personal boundaries;
I wouldn't ignore them, but I tend to remove them over time.
??
I don't think, ignoring the personal boundaries is a way one should go,
because this causes negative emotions and resistance.
But it is possible to go as far as the boundaries of a person allow one
to go and carefully extend the limits this person accepts. Over time the
boundaries will fall.
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
Which one do you prefer? Me ignoring them or openly dismiss them?
None - they both give the same feeling of worthlessness to somebody
attempting communication and or attempting the right to tell somebody that
it hurts.
Sometimtes it's necessary to do the one or other ...
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
That's at least bad style.
Its intimidation.
In most cases it's counter-productive.
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
That's anyway not a good idea, since it causes opposition.
The manipulated person is showing signs of strength, the manipulator must
get the control back.
That way he doesn't get the control back - not long-term.
Making you feel sad or afraid.
Depends on the context.
All the above can make a person sad and afraid - another result of a barrage
of negative manipulations.
Once again something that is long-term not useful. A person might be sad
or afraid as a result of negative or counterproductive behaviour, but
generally we should seek positive emotions.
Do you have a compassionate interest in this, btw?
Compassionate? No.
I'm interested in the mechanisms of human interaction, and I've observed
the one or other quite strange form of relationship. I enjoy analyzing
and understanding what is going on.
.
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| User: "Tracy" |
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| Title: Re: How to prevent abusive marriages |
03 Oct 2005 04:24:06 AM |
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"AE" <hidden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dhjumg$khe$03$1@news.t-online.com...
Tracy wrote:
AE wrote:
Tracy wrote:
AE wrote:
...
What's psychological injury?
Coercion and control of another through verbal and non-verbal
manipulation.
Why? Manipulation takes place all the time. We are manipulated by the
media, just as an example, but I don't feel injured by them.
Two examples of verbal manipulation:
1) This washing powder *will* make your clothes smell fresher - I am
assuming this doesnt injure somebody.
2) You have to be the ugliest person I know. If you leave me, NO-ONE
else will want you - tell that enough times to somebody with no knowledge
of choices.
So it's not the manipulation as such, but the resulting emotions?
Yes, but you have to look at both sides - the manipulator *has* to control
through coercion - deliberately talk a person down, patronize, name-call,
humiliate to get "the resulting emotions". As the manipulated, you have to
make a choice - whether to be affected or not.
There are two sides: the manipulator (wishing to maintain a form of
control - a selfishness that deems it necessary to keep somebody in a form
of insecurity) and the manipulated who either doesnt see the manipulation
for what it is (through lack of life experience or misplaced loyalty/love)
or has a mindset that deems it necessary to cling to something that they
believe will change for the better or that they deserve the behaviour shown
to them.
Unless one understands what is reasonable and benevolent behaviour shown,
one could stay within a relationship that will *cement* psychological
injury - simply through the consistent barrage of abuse.
I not only talk from personal experience, I have seen many friends and
acquaintances over the years who have been in controlling situations where
their lack of insight or inner strength has kept them locked in that
situation. Believing, in their hearts of hearts, that there is no way out.
Fear is a big component in most cases. Fear that threats made to them
*will* come true. Fear that things they were told about themselves are true
("NO-ONE else will want you"..).
You have to truly seethe result of an abused person to fully understand the
extent of injury that can result from consistent negative manipulation.
I got out of my situation by deciding NOT to be scared anymore. It was
still scary..........changing a mindset that I had been used to since I was
a young child.
I dont think many people see they are being manipulated until the injury has
been sustained and then begins the rollercoaster of abuse that one feels
they cannot escape from.
Yep! Guilt is destructive - it stops us from being aware of the choices
we can make. It is also the most used form of manipulation done by most
people - especially the ones who are in denial that they negatively
manipulate in the first place.
On the other hand, guilt is one of the mechanisms that make us follow
rules.
Of course - why does the manipulator use guilt-trips as a way of
controlling? To make you follow *their* rules. They need to maintain
control.
You are stating the obvious in this context, btw!
Showing excessive jealousy or possessiveness;
depends on the context, but ok
Just another form of control. The manipulator may be showing classic
signs of insecurity at this stage, but if it gets the desired results
from the manipulated, its a bonus.
Possessiveness might be required to control the environment ...
You are again stating the obvious in this context.
Ignoring personal boundaries;
I wouldn't ignore them, but I tend to remove them over time.
??
I don't think, ignoring the personal boundaries is a way one should go,
because this causes negative emotions and resistance.
You must not keep stating the obvious in this context or I will simply be
repeating myself, over and over again! :P
But it is possible to go as far as the boundaries of a person allow one to
go and carefully extend the limits this person accepts. Over time the
boundaries will fall.
oh dear!!! You understand manipulation, then??
Ignoring or dismissing your opinions;
Which one do you prefer? Me ignoring them or openly dismiss them?
None - they both give the same feeling of worthlessness to somebody
attempting communication and or attempting the right to tell somebody
that it hurts.
Sometimtes it's necessary to do the one or other ...
NO WAY ignore or dismiss anybody - unless they are obnoxious to the extreme
or unfriendly in a consistent manner. But to deliberately ignore or dismiss
somebody because you insist on control is a heartless thing.
You would not like to be dismissed or ignored every day of your life, would
you?
Losing of temper quickly;
Breaking or hitting objects during arguments;
That's at least bad style.
Its intimidation.
In most cases it's counter-productive.
Becoming hostile when you say *no";
That's anyway not a good idea, since it causes opposition.
The manipulated person is showing signs of strength, the manipulator must
get the control back.
That way he doesn't get the control back - not long-term.
Possibly... some people stay in abusive/injurious relationships all their
lives (relationships not necessarily being intimate, it could be peers,
parents, siblings that are the manipulators).
Making you feel sad or afraid.
Depends on the context.
All the above can make a person sad and afraid - another result of a
barrage of negative manipulations.
Once again something that is long-term not useful. A person might be sad
or afraid as a result of negative or counterproductive behaviour, but
generally we should seek positive emotions.
Not everybody does. Some choose to stay locked into negative emotion
because they simply dont see any other way out.
Do you have a compassionate interest in this, btw?
Compassionate? No.
I'm interested in the mechanisms of human interaction, and I've observed
the one or other quite strange form of relationship. I enjoy analyzing and
understanding what is going on.
Have you analysed and understood *this* relationship? The usenet one with
you and I?? :)))
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