| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
28 Dec 2007 01:05:49 PM |
| Object: |
Mind, heart, and wisdom |
A Russian writer stated, "In Russia, there are two kinds of people:
Smart and mean, and stupid and kind." In America, the mind and heart
can be seen arranged in two significant misdirections, and with other
more positive possibilities.
One common American misdirection is the Midwestern-style anti-
intellectual "hey-mr-smartie-pants-who-do-you-think-you-are" crowd.
These compensate for their intellectual inferiority by claiming that
someone who has a mind can't also have a heart. The other is the
emotionally repressive rationalists, reductionists, logical
positivists, behaviorists, "skeptics," eliminativists, and others who
want to deny the validity of anything intuitive or heart-involving.
These compensate for their emotional inferiority by claiming that
those who have a heart can't also have a mind. Both are in grave
error.
In effect, there are good hearts and bad hearts at every level of
intellect. There are brilliant jerks like Freud, Hitler or J. Edgar
Hoover and brilliant great men like Jefferson, Franklin, Gandhi or
Martin Luther King. There are good-hearted dumb Forrest Gump types and
there are stupid creeps who rape 9-year-old black girls and think that
they are doing their country a favor. The dogma on both sides of this
is not in tune with reality, and to be able to see things for what
they are it becomes necessary to be free of that dogma.
The heart can in fact produce insight and wisdom; and there are people
of all intellectual levels who found, from going to significant
lengths to develop the heart, that they came in possession of insight
and understanding that they had not possessed previously. It is aso
possible through development of the mind to come to the place of the
heart - to the place of appreciation and wonder before the universe as
its mysteries are deeper and deeper fathomed - to the place of respect
for what has such intricacy, complexity and beauty; to the place of
seeing the
next person enough to empathize with them; to the place of fathoming
the magnificence of the world enough to love it. Where both mind and
heart merge into insight, compassion, understanding and love, is the
place of wisdom. Which, like light that is both energy and matter
(both wave and particle), becomes the point of intersection of mind
and heart, where they exist together as one at the place of embodied
infinity.
Many genuine scientists and mathematicians (as opposed to "skeptics"
and "rationalists" and others of similar persuasion) develop kind
hearts, as that is the appropriate logical reaction to genuinely
beholding magnificence of the Universe. Many people who work with the
matters of heart develop very sharp minds, as that is what it takes to
adequately fathom, nurture and resolve matters of human experience for
existent and long-term benefit.
The mind can therefore be a valid path to the heart, and the heart to
the mind.
It therefore follows that an effective path to take is the integrative
one of mind and heart feeding into each other and growing each other
as well as themselves into both mentally fathomed and emotionally
experienced universe-attuned wisdom.
Ilya Shambat
http://www.myspace.com/ibshambat
.
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| User: "Miller" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
28 Dec 2007 02:27:36 PM |
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<ibshambat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1e5c0335-3352-4139-aa2e-06466e1d2b66@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
A Russian writer stated, "In Russia, there are two kinds of people:
Smart and mean, and stupid and kind." In America, the mind and heart
can be seen arranged in two significant misdirections, and with other
more positive possibilities.
One common American misdirection is the Midwestern-style anti-
intellectual "hey-mr-smartie-pants-who-do-you-think-you-are" crowd.
These compensate for their intellectual inferiority by claiming that
someone who has a mind can't also have a heart. The other is the
emotionally repressive rationalists, reductionists, logical
positivists, behaviorists, "skeptics," eliminativists, and others who
want to deny the validity of anything intuitive or heart-involving.
These compensate for their emotional inferiority by claiming that
those who have a heart can't also have a mind. Both are in grave
error.
In effect, there are good hearts and bad hearts at every level of
intellect. There are brilliant jerks like Freud, Hitler or J. Edgar
Hoover and brilliant great men like Jefferson, Franklin, Gandhi or
Martin Luther King. There are good-hearted dumb Forrest Gump types and
there are stupid creeps who rape 9-year-old black girls and think that
they are doing their country a favor. The dogma on both sides of this
is not in tune with reality, and to be able to see things for what
they are it becomes necessary to be free of that dogma.
The heart can in fact produce insight and wisdom; and there are people
of all intellectual levels who found, from going to significant
lengths to develop the heart, that they came in possession of insight
and understanding that they had not possessed previously. It is aso
possible through development of the mind to come to the place of the
heart - to the place of appreciation and wonder before the universe as
its mysteries are deeper and deeper fathomed - to the place of respect
for what has such intricacy, complexity and beauty; to the place of
seeing the
next person enough to empathize with them; to the place of fathoming
the magnificence of the world enough to love it. Where both mind and
heart merge into insight, compassion, understanding and love, is the
place of wisdom. Which, like light that is both energy and matter
(both wave and particle), becomes the point of intersection of mind
and heart, where they exist together as one at the place of embodied
infinity.
Many genuine scientists and mathematicians (as opposed to "skeptics"
and "rationalists" and others of similar persuasion) develop kind
hearts, as that is the appropriate logical reaction to genuinely
beholding magnificence of the Universe. Many people who work with the
matters of heart develop very sharp minds, as that is what it takes to
adequately fathom, nurture and resolve matters of human experience for
existent and long-term benefit.
The mind can therefore be a valid path to the heart, and the heart to
the mind.
It therefore follows that an effective path to take is the integrative
one of mind and heart feeding into each other and growing each other
as well as themselves into both mentally fathomed and emotionally
experienced universe-attuned wisdom.
Ilya Shambat
http://www.myspace.com/ibshambat
I would agree. There are many paths--some are easy, some are hard--but it
is not always easy to tell which is better than the other. I think it can
be said, in general, that those of us who live comfortably, are more likely
to sit on our assets, as it were, be those assets more of the spiritual or
materialistic type.
The only thing that I think we can all use a little more of is tolerance. I
do not think a system based on labeling people as smart/mean,
intellectual/emotional and whatnot is really very helpful.
Scott
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
28 Dec 2007 05:26:56 PM |
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<ibshambat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1e5c0335-3352-4139-aa2e-06466e1d2b66@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
A Russian writer stated, "In Russia, there are two kinds of people:
Smart and mean, and stupid and kind." In America, the mind and heart
can be seen arranged in two significant misdirections, and with other
more positive possibilities.
One common American misdirection is the Midwestern-style anti-
intellectual "hey-mr-smartie-pants-who-do-you-think-you-are" crowd.
These compensate for their intellectual inferiority by claiming that
someone who has a mind can't also have a heart. The other is the
emotionally repressive rationalists, reductionists, logical
positivists, behaviorists, "skeptics," eliminativists, and others who
want to deny the validity of anything intuitive or heart-involving.
These compensate for their emotional inferiority by claiming that
those who have a heart can't also have a mind. Both are in grave
error.
In effect, there are good hearts and bad hearts at every level of
intellect. There are brilliant jerks like Freud, Hitler or J. Edgar
Hoover and brilliant great men like Jefferson, Franklin, Gandhi or
Martin Luther King. There are good-hearted dumb Forrest Gump types and
there are stupid creeps who rape 9-year-old black girls and think that
they are doing their country a favor. The dogma on both sides of this
is not in tune with reality, and to be able to see things for what
they are it becomes necessary to be free of that dogma.
The heart can in fact produce insight and wisdom; and there are people
of all intellectual levels who found, from going to significant
lengths to develop the heart, that they came in possession of insight
and understanding that they had not possessed previously. It is aso
possible through development of the mind to come to the place of the
heart - to the place of appreciation and wonder before the universe as
its mysteries are deeper and deeper fathomed - to the place of respect
for what has such intricacy, complexity and beauty; to the place of
seeing the
next person enough to empathize with them; to the place of fathoming
the magnificence of the world enough to love it. Where both mind and
heart merge into insight, compassion, understanding and love, is the
place of wisdom. Which, like light that is both energy and matter
(both wave and particle), becomes the point of intersection of mind
and heart, where they exist together as one at the place of embodied
infinity.
Many genuine scientists and mathematicians (as opposed to "skeptics"
and "rationalists" and others of similar persuasion) develop kind
hearts, as that is the appropriate logical reaction to genuinely
beholding magnificence of the Universe. Many people who work with the
matters of heart develop very sharp minds, as that is what it takes to
adequately fathom, nurture and resolve matters of human experience for
existent and long-term benefit.
The mind can therefore be a valid path to the heart, and the heart to
the mind.
It therefore follows that an effective path to take is the integrative
one of mind and heart feeding into each other and growing each other
as well as themselves into both mentally fathomed and emotionally
experienced universe-attuned wisdom.
Ilya Shambat
http://www.myspace.com/ibshambat
Nice piece. I would make just one comment. People are born with kind hearts.
Not genetically observable of course, but nor is love.
BOfL
.
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| User: "Michael Gordge" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
28 Dec 2007 05:36:30 PM |
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On Dec 29, 8:26=A0am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Nice piece. I would make just one comment. People > are born with kind hea=
rts.
No they aren't, people have to reason all of their actions and ideas
and emotions, they're all a part of knowledge and problem solving.
e.g. Why cant you reason the love you have or vice verse for your
spouse children mother father? DONT ANSWER, not with specifics anyway,
its only meant as a question to trigger thought.
It'd help relationships a lot if people at least tried to reason their
feelings, shucks they may even learn why and how to become kinder, or
meaner in the case of evil.
Michael Gordge
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
29 Dec 2007 09:04:43 AM |
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"Michael Gordge" <mikegordge@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:eb22a408-71f3-4f5c-b9e5-6421fbda9797@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 29, 8:26 am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Nice piece. I would make just one comment. People > are born with kind
hearts.
No they aren't, people have to reason all of their actions and ideas
and emotions, they're all a part of knowledge and problem solving.
***That has no bearing on what Im saying. You may as well respond "all
people breath".It is the difference the way people are able to do this that
***demonstrate what Im saying.
e.g. Why cant you reason the love you have or vice verse for your
spouse children mother father? DONT ANSWER, not with specifics anyway,
its only meant as a question to trigger thought.
***DONT RERAD MY ANSWER...the only time you refer to love here is with
regards to family.
It'd help relationships a lot if people at least tried to reason their
feelings, shucks they may even learn why and how to become kinder, or
meaner in the case of evil.
*** Your association of "kind" and love, area good illustration of your
narrow perspective.Dont forget A=A
***Kind heart, musical ability (bet you cant sing !!!), and many other
talents are developed, not initiated each life.
BOfL
Michael Gordge
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
29 Dec 2007 06:37:00 AM |
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On Dec 29, 10:36=A0am, Michael Gordge <mikegor...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:26=A0am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Nice piece. I would make just one comment. People > are born with kind h=
earts.
Are you sure about that one?
No they aren't, people have to reason all of their actions and ideas
and emotions, they're all a part of knowledge and problem solving.
You're getting better, but you are missing an important point.
Actions, ideas, emotions and mind feed into each other. There are many
things that take place for which you don't have context in reference
to how you've been taught to reason, but develop one later when you
find out other ways to think and see things.
As an example, since you are a Randian, in Anthem, the guy in the
communist group who invented electricity first thought he was evil,
but then discovered that he was right after he left the group & its
beliefs. His ideas, actions, emotions, were first seen with guilt from
how he was taught to think. He found better later.
e.g. Why cant you reason the love you have or vice verse for your
spouse children mother father?
I can, but it took a lot of study of different things.
It'd help relationships a lot if people at least tried to reason their
feelings, shucks they may even learn why and how to become kinder, or
meaner in the case of evil.
That can be useful, but what would be more useful is to know many ways
to think.
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
29 Dec 2007 09:09:07 AM |
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<ibshambat2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6a0048ed-bbf4-46b5-b339-d85498ce17e2@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 29, 10:36 am, Michael Gordge <mikegor...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:26 am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Nice piece. I would make just one comment. People > are born with kind
hearts.
Are you sure about that one?
***Absolutely. Some people rise above lifes circumstances and some try to
get even.
No they aren't, people have to reason all of their actions and ideas
and emotions, they're all a part of knowledge and problem solving.
Thats was Mike , not me. Im already better :-)
You're getting better, but you are missing an important point.
Actions, ideas, emotions and mind feed into each other. There are many
things that take place for which you don't have context in reference
to how you've been taught to reason, but develop one later when you
find out other ways to think and see things.
As an example, since you are a Randian, in Anthem, the guy in the
communist group who invented electricity first thought he was evil,
but then discovered that he was right after he left the group & its
beliefs. His ideas, actions, emotions, were first seen with guilt from
how he was taught to think. He found better later.
e.g. Why cant you reason the love you have or vice verse for your
spouse children mother father?
I can, but it took a lot of study of different things.
It'd help relationships a lot if people at least tried to reason their
feelings, shucks they may even learn why and how to become kinder, or
meaner in the case of evil.
That can be useful, but what would be more useful is to know many ways
to think.
***Much better to learn how to know. Thinking alone builds greater divides.
***
.
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| User: "ZerkonX" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
29 Dec 2007 09:24:02 AM |
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On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:05:49 -0800, ibshambat wrote:
In effect, there are good hearts and bad hearts at every level of
intellect.
In effect, in order to greatly simplify things only for the sake of a
discussion, 'hearts' are divided up into two opposing metaphorical
differences. While having no basis in truth and wallowing in the same
stereotypes it fains to refute, it enables the participant/reader to feel
above the common fray of the mistaken and ignorant masses.
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
29 Dec 2007 05:54:55 PM |
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"ZerkonX" <Z@erconX.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.12.29.15.24.00.271948@erconX.org...
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:05:49 -0800, ibshambat wrote:
In effect, there are good hearts and bad hearts at every level of
intellect.
In effect, in order to greatly simplify things only for the sake of a
discussion, 'hearts' are divided up into two opposing metaphorical
differences. While having no basis in truth and wallowing in the same
stereotypes it fains to refute, it enables the participant/reader to feel
above the common fray of the mistaken and ignorant masses.
Ther has been some significant studies on heart replacement recipients,
whereby some of the doners characteristics are passed on.
The double blind is "in built" as the subjects were unaware of the identity
of the doner..
Problems with such studies, it provides remarkaable information with no
chance of "traditional" explanation, and is often not pursued for that
reason.
BOfL
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
01 Jan 2008 06:17:39 AM |
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On Dec 30 2007, 10:54=A0am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
"ZerkonX" <Z...@erconX.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.12.29.15.24.00.271948@erconX.org...> On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:=
05:49 -0800, ibshambat wrote:
In effect, there are good hearts and bad hearts at every level of
intellect.
In effect, in order to greatly simplify things only for the sake of a
discussion, 'hearts' are divided up into two opposing metaphorical
differences. While having no basis in truth and wallowing in the same
stereotypes it fains to refute, it enables the participant/reader to fee=
l
above the common fray of the mistaken and ignorant masses.
Ther has been some significant studies on heart replacement recipients,
whereby some of the doners characteristics are passed on.
The double blind is "in built" as the subjects were unaware of the identit=
y
of the doner..
This is excellent. I am wondering, does this happen also with
transplants of organs other than the heart?
Problems with such studies, it provides remarkaable information with no
chance of "traditional" explanation, and is often not pursued for that
reason.
Another proof of the bigotry of the materialist fundamentalists.
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
01 Jan 2008 09:18:33 AM |
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<ibshambat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8101f64d-ddf3-4a27-8c29-b8729d7ba59f@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 30 2007, 10:54 am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
"ZerkonX" <Z...@erconX.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.12.29.15.24.00.271948@erconX.org...> On Fri, 28 Dec 2007
11:05:49 -0800, ibshambat wrote:
In effect, there are good hearts and bad hearts at every level of
intellect.
In effect, in order to greatly simplify things only for the sake of a
discussion, 'hearts' are divided up into two opposing metaphorical
differences. While having no basis in truth and wallowing in the same
stereotypes it fains to refute, it enables the participant/reader to
feel
above the common fray of the mistaken and ignorant masses.
Ther has been some significant studies on heart replacement recipients,
whereby some of the doners characteristics are passed on.
The double blind is "in built" as the subjects were unaware of the
identity
of the doner..
This is excellent. I am wondering, does this happen also with
transplants of organs other than the heart?
Problems with such studies, it provides remarkaable information with no
chance of "traditional" explanation, and is often not pursued for that
reason.
Another proof of the bigotry of the materialist fundamentalists.
There is some evidence regarding other organ transplants.
One beautiful example, is a building labourer received a heart transplant,
and after recovery, developed a passion for opera. This dumbfounded his
family....Guess what the doners passion was ????
Bigotry chooses people, not the converse.
People are where they need to be, to experience what they need for growth.
BOfL
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
02 Jan 2008 07:59:38 PM |
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On Jan 2, 2:18=A0am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Bigotry chooses people, not the converse.
It's possible for person to remove bigotry, or be helped out of it.
People are where they need to be, =A0to experience what they need for grow=
th.
Where people are, is a function of multiple factors, some internal,
some external, some an interaction. To claim that they are all needed
for growth, is to not see those factors for what they are or how they
can be arranged in order to actually produce growth.
Did the people in Stalins' gulags need to be there, to experience what
they needed for growth? Then why wouldn't people with similar
propensities now?
Being spiritual does not have to equate believing things that are
untrue, or not taking action when it needs to be taken.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mind, heart, and wisdom |
01 Jan 2008 05:55:07 AM |
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On Dec 30 2007, 2:24=A0am, ZerkonX <Z...@erconX.org> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:05:49 -0800, ibshambat wrote:
In effect, there are good hearts and bad hearts at every level of
intellect.
In effect, in order to greatly simplify things only for the sake of a
discussion, 'hearts' are divided up into two opposing metaphorical
differences. While having no basis in truth and wallowing in the same
stereotypes it fains to refute, it enables the participant/reader to feel
above the common fray of the mistaken and ignorant masses.
In fact, it is people like you that seek to keep "masses" ignorant by
denying to them the heart knowledge that comes through poetry, graphic
arts, revelation, and other channels for expressed intuitive thought.
At this time, the people you keep ignorant the most are other
rationalist snobs like you. But the authoritarianism of your mentality
can be of danger to many others, including especially the ones under
your control.
.
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