| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Philologizer" |
| Date: |
07 Jan 2004 08:24:23 PM |
| Object: |
Nietzsche's "Optimism" |
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering, not in
denying the existence of suffering. The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor of
another, better world beyond. This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you. And "pessimism" is
not simply seeing the negative side of the world but rather surrendering to the
negative side, turning away from the world as though to dissociate ourselves
from it.
Philologizer
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| User: "Tron Furu" |
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| Title: Re: Nietzsche's "Optimism" |
07 Jan 2004 09:32:06 PM |
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"Philologizer" <philologizer@aol.comNOSPAM> skrev i melding
news:20040107212423.14429.00002360@mb-m14.aol.com...
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the
notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism
was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering, not
in
denying the existence of suffering.
Well, sort of. As I read him, he says that "life is all there is", and there
is no point in dividing experiences into "good" or "bad". Nothing matters"
in the end (whatever would that mean?), and so, nothing matters in the
moment either. Of course you experience pain, and you wish it would stop,
etc. but you don't get this meta-level of extra unhappiness from reflecting
on how things could have been much better if only .... etc.
So his "amor fati" is sort of pre-good and evil.
The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor
of
another, better world beyond.
I thought he did that because it says so in the Bible; and he is ascetic to
mortify the flesh. That is a HEAP of suffering; to him, suffering is good,
as it proves that this world is indeed a vale of tears.
This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
Well ....
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but
rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you.
Well .... Optimism is posterity's term for Leibniz's concept that this is
the best ("optimum") of all possible worlds (not the best of all worlds, but
the worlds that are better, are not possible). Schopenhauer countered that
by saying that life is just that one single notch above the unberable that
suffices for the majority of mankind to not go off and kill itself. To him,
this was the worst ("pessimum") of all possible worlds. FWN tries to get
away from having to pose the problem in these terms.
And "pessimism" is
not simply seeing the negative side of the world but rather surrendering
to the
negative side, turning away from the world as though to dissociate
ourselves
from it.
Well ....
T
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| User: "Keynes" |
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| Title: Re: Nietzsche's "Optimism" |
08 Jan 2004 12:34:04 AM |
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On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:32:06 +0100, "Tron Furu" <tronfuru@frisurf.no> wrote:
"Philologizer" <philologizer@aol.comNOSPAM> skrev i melding
news:20040107212423.14429.00002360@mb-m14.aol.com...
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the
notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism
was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering, not
in
denying the existence of suffering.
Well, sort of. As I read him, he says that "life is all there is", and there
is no point in dividing experiences into "good" or "bad". Nothing matters"
in the end (whatever would that mean?), and so, nothing matters in the
moment either. Of course you experience pain, and you wish it would stop,
etc. but you don't get this meta-level of extra unhappiness from reflecting
on how things could have been much better if only .... etc.
So his "amor fati" is sort of pre-good and evil.
The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor
of
another, better world beyond.
I thought he did that because it says so in the Bible; and he is ascetic to
mortify the flesh. That is a HEAP of suffering; to him, suffering is good,
as it proves that this world is indeed a vale of tears.
This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
Well ....
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but
rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you.
Well .... Optimism is posterity's term for Leibniz's concept that this is
the best ("optimum") of all possible worlds (not the best of all worlds, but
the worlds that are better, are not possible). Schopenhauer countered that
by saying that life is just that one single notch above the unberable that
suffices for the majority of mankind to not go off and kill itself. To him,
this was the worst ("pessimum") of all possible worlds. FWN tries to get
away from having to pose the problem in these terms.
And "pessimism" is
not simply seeing the negative side of the world but rather surrendering
to the
negative side, turning away from the world as though to dissociate
ourselves
from it.
Well ....
T
IMO optimism or pessimism are personal attitudes.
(Used as a judgement by another as an insult.)
A useful exercise is to imagine improving the world to
the degree that it would be a perfectly satisfying paradise.
(Or to imagine yourself the designer of eternal heaven itself.)
I once offered a shiny nickel for the best design.
I still have the nickel.
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: Nietzsche's "Optimism" |
08 Jan 2004 01:34:10 AM |
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Keynes wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:32:06 +0100, "Tron Furu" <tronfuru@frisurf.no> wrote:
"Philologizer" <philologizer@aol.comNOSPAM> skrev i melding
news:20040107212423.14429.00002360@mb-m14.aol.com...
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the
notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism
was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering, not
in
denying the existence of suffering.
Well, sort of. As I read him, he says that "life is all there is", and there
is no point in dividing experiences into "good" or "bad". Nothing matters"
in the end (whatever would that mean?), and so, nothing matters in the
moment either. Of course you experience pain, and you wish it would stop,
etc. but you don't get this meta-level of extra unhappiness from reflecting
on how things could have been much better if only .... etc.
So his "amor fati" is sort of pre-good and evil.
The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor
of
another, better world beyond.
I thought he did that because it says so in the Bible; and he is ascetic to
mortify the flesh. That is a HEAP of suffering; to him, suffering is good,
as it proves that this world is indeed a vale of tears.
This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
Well ....
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but
rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you.
Well .... Optimism is posterity's term for Leibniz's concept that this is
the best ("optimum") of all possible worlds (not the best of all worlds, but
the worlds that are better, are not possible). Schopenhauer countered that
by saying that life is just that one single notch above the unberable that
suffices for the majority of mankind to not go off and kill itself. To him,
this was the worst ("pessimum") of all possible worlds. FWN tries to get
away from having to pose the problem in these terms.
And "pessimism" is
not simply seeing the negative side of the world but rather surrendering
to the
negative side, turning away from the world as though to dissociate
ourselves
from it.
Well ....
T
IMO optimism or pessimism are personal attitudes.
(Used as a judgement by another as an insult.)
A useful exercise is to imagine improving the world to
the degree that it would be a perfectly satisfying paradise.
(Or to imagine yourself the designer of eternal heaven itself.)
I once offered a shiny nickel for the best design.
I still have the nickel.
That's because you are an impossible agenda driven judge.
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill/
*************************
Phrase of the week :
" Everything in life is luck. " --Donald Trump
" I am a great believer in luck, and
I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. "
-- Thomas Jefferson
:-))))Snort!)
*************************
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| User: "Keynes" |
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| Title: Re: Nietzsche's "Optimism" |
08 Jan 2004 07:13:01 AM |
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On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:34:10 -0800, Sir Frederick <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote:
Keynes wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:32:06 +0100, "Tron Furu" <tronfuru@frisurf.no> wrote:
"Philologizer" <philologizer@aol.comNOSPAM> skrev i melding
news:20040107212423.14429.00002360@mb-m14.aol.com...
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the
notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism
was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering, not
in
denying the existence of suffering.
Well, sort of. As I read him, he says that "life is all there is", and there
is no point in dividing experiences into "good" or "bad". Nothing matters"
in the end (whatever would that mean?), and so, nothing matters in the
moment either. Of course you experience pain, and you wish it would stop,
etc. but you don't get this meta-level of extra unhappiness from reflecting
on how things could have been much better if only .... etc.
So his "amor fati" is sort of pre-good and evil.
The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor
of
another, better world beyond.
I thought he did that because it says so in the Bible; and he is ascetic to
mortify the flesh. That is a HEAP of suffering; to him, suffering is good,
as it proves that this world is indeed a vale of tears.
This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
Well ....
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but
rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you.
Well .... Optimism is posterity's term for Leibniz's concept that this is
the best ("optimum") of all possible worlds (not the best of all worlds, but
the worlds that are better, are not possible). Schopenhauer countered that
by saying that life is just that one single notch above the unberable that
suffices for the majority of mankind to not go off and kill itself. To him,
this was the worst ("pessimum") of all possible worlds. FWN tries to get
away from having to pose the problem in these terms.
And "pessimism" is
not simply seeing the negative side of the world but rather surrendering
to the
negative side, turning away from the world as though to dissociate
ourselves
from it.
Well ....
T
IMO optimism or pessimism are personal attitudes.
(Used as a judgement by another as an insult.)
A useful exercise is to imagine improving the world to
the degree that it would be a perfectly satisfying paradise.
(Or to imagine yourself the designer of eternal heaven itself.)
I once offered a shiny nickel for the best design.
I still have the nickel.
That's because you are an impossible agenda driven judge.
Thaat's just your story, Sir.
Any ideas?
.
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| User: "Nik the Greek" |
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| Title: Re: Nietzsche's "Optimism" |
08 Jan 2004 05:10:40 PM |
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Tron Furu wrote:
"Philologizer" <philologizer@aol.comNOSPAM> skrev i melding
news:20040107212423.14429.00002360@mb-m14.aol.com...
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the
notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism
was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering, not
in
denying the existence of suffering.
Well, sort of. As I read him, he says that "life is all there is", and there
is no point in dividing experiences into "good" or "bad". Nothing matters"
in the end (whatever would that mean?), and so, nothing matters in the
moment either. Of course you experience pain, and you wish it would stop,
etc. but you don't get this meta-level of extra unhappiness from reflecting
on how things could have been much better if only .... etc.
So his "amor fati" is sort of pre-good and evil.
The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor
of
another, better world beyond.
I thought he did that because it says so in the Bible; and he is ascetic to
mortify the flesh. That is a HEAP of suffering; to him, suffering is good,
as it proves that this world is indeed a vale of tears.
This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
Well ....
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but
rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you.
Well .... Optimism is posterity's term for Leibniz's concept that this is
the best ("optimum") of all possible worlds (not the best of all worlds, but
the worlds that are better, are not possible). Schopenhauer countered that
by saying that life is just that one single notch above the unberable that
suffices for the majority of mankind to not go off and kill itself. To him,
this was the worst ("pessimum") of all possible worlds.
Yup. I remember him writing about life being a constant oscillation
between pain and boredom (boredom being the pain of the intellecutal).
Very pessimistic indeed.
Nik the Greek
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| User: "NotSoQuick" |
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| Title: Re: Nietzsche's "Optimism" |
08 Jan 2004 09:49:42 PM |
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"Nik the Greek" <nikthegreek@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:btkngc$899rm$1@ID-130278.news.uni-berlin.de...
Tron Furu wrote:
"Philologizer" <philologizer@aol.comNOSPAM> skrev i melding
news:20040107212423.14429.00002360@mb-m14.aol.com...
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the
notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism
was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering,
not
in
denying the existence of suffering.
Well, sort of. As I read him, he says that "life is all there is", and
there
is no point in dividing experiences into "good" or "bad". Nothing
matters"
in the end (whatever would that mean?), and so, nothing matters in the
moment either. Of course you experience pain, and you wish it would
stop,
etc. but you don't get this meta-level of extra unhappiness from
reflecting
on how things could have been much better if only .... etc.
So his "amor fati" is sort of pre-good and evil.
The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor
of
another, better world beyond.
I thought he did that because it says so in the Bible; and he is ascetic
to
mortify the flesh. That is a HEAP of suffering; to him, suffering is
good,
as it proves that this world is indeed a vale of tears.
This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
Well ....
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but
rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you.
Well .... Optimism is posterity's term for Leibniz's concept that this
is
the best ("optimum") of all possible worlds (not the best of all worlds,
but
the worlds that are better, are not possible). Schopenhauer countered
that
by saying that life is just that one single notch above the unberable
that
suffices for the majority of mankind to not go off and kill itself. To
him,
this was the worst ("pessimum") of all possible worlds.
Yup. I remember him writing about life being a constant oscillation
between pain and boredom (boredom being the pain of the intellecutal).
Very pessimistic indeed.
Nik the Greek
Sometimes I think that we can have a level of pain that becomes familiar
and that if we don't have enough problems to acquire our habitual state,
then we create problems.
And why? Perhaps we subconsciously hold the belief that we were created
the way we are and don't have permission to mess with God's work, and
perhaps are afraid of "jumping out of the frying pan into the fire...".
Another reason for chronic self-induced pain may be that it is a reaction
to the problems that we encountered when we were 'manic' or our actions
were careless due to our exuberence. And that a good thing might be to
learn to be in control of our energy without building in a depressing
governor
on our life force becaue of things that we did or said when we were young
when or judgement was as good as it is now that we are adults.
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| User: "BretCahill" |
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| Title: Nietzsche's Dopey [Discussion] Interpretators |
11 Jan 2004 04:44:22 AM |
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Has anyone ever glanced through any of
those Nietzsche interpretation [discussion]
books?
I will read a couple paragraphs of the
introduction and then bust out laughing at
the writer because Nietzsche has
_already_ made a mockery of this type of
person who was "not authorized" to read
his work.
But the blast only lasts a second. I then
feel blue and put the book back on the
shelf.
Even his adoring [language] translators
reveal they miss a lot in their footnotes.
Translating languages must be a pretty
mechanical process if a prankster can slip
a joke right past a translator.
philologizer@aol.comNOSPAM (Philologizer) in
Message-id: <20040107212423.14429.00002360@mb-m14.aol.com> writes:
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the
notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering, not in
denying the existence of suffering. The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor of
another, better world beyond. This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you. And "pessimism" is
not simply seeing the negative side of the world but rather surrendering to
the
negative side, turning away from the world as though to dissociate ourselves
from it.
Certainly better than the stuff in the liberry.
Bret Cahill
All conservatism is based on censorship of
economic information.
-- Bret Cahill
.
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| User: "Tony Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Nietzsche's "Optimism" |
09 Jan 2004 05:41:32 AM |
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I think Nietzsche hated Christianity, rather than Christ, because it was the
religion of slaves. His deep seated feeling was for aristocracy and the
worth of the elite. This aristocratic stance boils down to class
consciousness and the role of the 'gentleman' in society. He loved all that
was good and noble, all that was great. Consequently he hated the abasement
inherent in Christianity and the smell of the crowd in the marketplace.
In some ways this is an immature attitude unmodified by the rough and tumble
of the world.
By and large he led a sheltered life, associating now and then with the good
and great eg Wagner, with whom he lived as a young man. But mostly he was
solitary, preferring his own company, perhaps an expression of his self
regard.
He welcomed suffering, of which he had more than a fair share, as
challenging and ennobling.
He was stoical and used his pain as a spur to achieve what he could.
Many of his ideas are childish and hysterical, that is to say womanish in
his terms. How he would have hated this slur, being wedded to the ideal of
stern manhood. Like many of his generation he was brought up on Spartan
principles. Little wonder then that he was a Spartan in daily life if not at
all in thought.
He was definitely optimistic, even about the fate of his unsuccessful
writings. However, I think his psychological perception precluded being at
all unrealistic. Viewed in the context of history and society he looks like
an idealist who couldn't bear idealism. Striving after the highest things in
life while condemning the hogwash of German idealism was a difficult
situation that cut him off from the flow of German philosophy. He succeeded
in being spontaneous rather than systematic, perhaps a kind of return to
Socratic individualism, although he situated his hero in ancient Persia, in
the form of Zarathustra. Perhaps he needed an imaginary father figure whose
religion was clean, pure and bright, like its eternal fires. So different
from the gloomy aspect of his real father who died so young, leaving his son
at the mercy of the womenfolf. "Die Mutter, Die Mutter" his other hero
Goethe had warned.
Tony Thomas
"Philologizer" <philologizer@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20040107212423.14429.00002360@mb-m14.aol.com...
Nietzsche rejected what he called "pessimism" but he did not reject the
notion
that existence is primarily composed of suffering. His idea of optimism
was
carrying on, saying "Yes" to existence in the face of this suffering, not
in
denying the existence of suffering. The Christian ascetic responds to the
predominance of suffering in existence by renouncing this world in favor
of
another, better world beyond. This is what Nietzsche calls "pessimism."
"Optimism" is not viewing the world through rose colored glasses but
rather
carrying on in the face of all the smut surrounding you. And "pessimism"
is
not simply seeing the negative side of the world but rather surrendering
to the
negative side, turning away from the world as though to dissociate
ourselves
from it.
Philologizer
.
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