| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Bret Cahill" |
| Date: |
18 Dec 2005 10:23:20 PM |
| Object: |
OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
You guys forced the issue so I decided to come clean:
I have no identity.
In fact I don't really exist. Like this thread I'm just a figment of
your imagination.
Bret Cahill
"He's a real nowhere man . . ."
-- Beatles
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| User: "JusUK" |
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| Title: Re: OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
19 Dec 2005 01:38:53 AM |
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"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1134966200.898954.264280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You guys forced the issue so I decided to come clean:
I have no identity.
In fact I don't really exist. Like this thread I'm just a figment of
your imagination.
This is correct, as at the time of writing the OP there was no thread
presumably.
PS Have you been reading Hume?
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| User: "YadaYada" |
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| Title: Re: OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
19 Dec 2005 08:10:03 PM |
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Bret Cahill a =E9crit :
I don't really exist. Like this thread I'm just a figment of
your imagination.
You might or might not exist. But the alleged poster of your post is
real to me and to anyone else who reads your post. I know that I am
both real to myself and to anyone who encounters either me, the object
of my existence, or the results of my activities, like this post. I
know that I exist, based on persistent objective evidence, although you
have no way to know that.
While your existence is objective, your reality is relative to the
observer.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
19 Dec 2005 11:52:30 AM |
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Bret Cahill wrote:
You guys forced the issue so I decided to come clean:
I have no identity.
Then you think your just a series of different clones who at the time
of passing believe they are one self?
In fact I don't really exist. Like this thread I'm just a figment of
your imagination.
It is good to claim something such may be possible but if you claim it
must be true, welcome to the meat grinder.
from A Treatise of Human Nature Book I, Part 4, Section 6
SECTION VI: OF PERSONAL IDENTITY
There are some philosophers who imagine we are every moment intimately
conscious of what we call our self; that we feel its existence and its
continuance in existence; and are certain, beyond the evidence of a
demonstration, both of its perfect identity and simplicity. The
strongest sensation, the most violent passion, say they, instead of
distracting us from this view, only fix it the more intensely, and make
us consider their influence on self either by their pain or pleasure.
To attempt a further proof of this were to weaken its evidence; since
no proof can be derived from any fact of which we are so intimately
conscious; nor is there any thing of which we can be certain if we
doubt of this.
Unluckily all these positive assertions are contrary to that very
experience which is pleaded for them; nor have we any idea of self,
after the manner it is here explained. For, from what impression could
this idea be derived? This question it is impossible to answer without
a manifest contradiction and absurdity; and yet it is a question which
must necessarily be answered, if we would have the idea of self pass
for clear and intelligible. It must be some one impression that gives
rise to every real idea. But self or person is not any one impression,
but that to which our several impressions and ideas are supposed to
have a reference. If any impression gives rise to the idea of self,
that impression must continue invariably the same, through the whole
course of our lives; since self is supposed to exist after that manner.
But there is no impression constant and invariable. Pain and pleasure,
grief and joy, passions and sensations succeed each other, and never
all exist at the same time. It cannot therefore be from any of these
impressions, or from any other, that the idea of self is derived; and
consequently there is no such idea.
From----
http://www.wutsamada.com/alma/modern/humepid.htm
Bret Cahill
"He's a real nowhere man . . ."
-- Beatles
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
19 Dec 2005 08:25:54 PM |
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"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135014750.231874.188470@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bret Cahill wrote:
You guys forced the issue so I decided to come clean:
I have no identity.
Then you think your just a series of different clones who at the time
of passing believe they are one self?
In fact I don't really exist. Like this thread I'm just a figment of
your imagination.
It is good to claim something such may be possible but if you claim it
must be true, welcome to the meat grinder.
from A Treatise of Human Nature Book I, Part 4, Section 6
SECTION VI: OF PERSONAL IDENTITY
There are some philosophers who imagine we are every moment intimately
conscious of what we call our self; that we feel its existence and its
continuance in existence; and are certain, beyond the evidence of a
demonstration, both of its perfect identity and simplicity.
**A sudden subtle shift from "imagine" to know there.
There is philosophy of hope, belief and imagination based on my own
interpretation that philosophy = "search" for meaning.
Philosophy of enlightenment appears to be an oxymoron.
The
strongest sensation, the most violent passion, say they, instead of
distracting us from this view, only fix it the more intensely, and make
us consider their influence on self either by their pain or pleasure.
'Influence' being the operative word.Reminds me of the rites of passage of
old indiginous cultures, where a boy becomes a man after crossing the pain
threshhold.
Our modern day equivalent perhaps.
All such stages are 'of self', on the journey of realisation.
To attempt a further proof of this were to weaken its evidence; since
no proof can be derived from any fact of which we are so intimately
conscious; nor is there any thing of which we can be certain if we
doubt of this.
Doubt is autonomous with partial consciousness.Inferring of course, there is
'total consciousness'
Unluckily all these positive assertions are contrary to that very
experience which is pleaded for them; nor have we any idea of self,
after the manner it is here explained.
Of course "we" can't have any idea of 'self'.
Correction. 'We' can *only* have 'idea' of self. "I" cant.
For, from what impression could
this idea be derived? This question it is impossible to answer without
a manifest contradiction and absurdity; and yet it is a question which
must necessarily be answered, if we would have the idea of self pass
for clear and intelligible.
An impossibility. Self and we are from different dimensions.
It must be some one impression that gives
rise to every real idea. But self or person is not any one impression,
but that to which our several impressions and ideas are supposed to
have a reference.
Self is not 'any' impression whatsoever.No collective noun fits inspite of
the relentless attempts with "we's" and "they's" :-)
If any impression gives rise to the idea of self,
that impression must continue invariably the same, through the whole
course of our lives; since self is supposed to exist after that manner.
Good attempt. Wrong premise. Self is the observer (at that stage at
least)...
But there is no impression constant and invariable.
CORRECT...Only 'SELF'.
An excellent example of the (dare I say) futility of non self trying to
identify 'self'.
Pain and pleasure,
grief and joy, passions and sensations succeed each other, and never
all exist at the same time. It cannot therefore be from any of these
impressions, or from any other, that the idea of self is derived; and
consequently there is no such idea.
An idea has been described, and then denied.
"Get above" or get caught in the whirlpool.
"The BOfL On The Hill"
From----
http://www.wutsamada.com/alma/modern/humepid.htm
Bret Cahill
"He's a real nowhere man . . ."
-- Beatles
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
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| Title: Re: OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
19 Dec 2005 01:17:47 PM |
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Maybe I'm open minded about myself?
? ? ?
(Notice I'm not too sure about that either.)
Bret Cahill
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
20 Dec 2005 12:16:25 AM |
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OK, I'll admit it. I'm not to keen on reading all these various works
of great philosophers
but would rather exchange ideas with whomever present themselves. This
may be
because of the way I approach thse things and the ease with which I am
distracted.
It is strange to think that I exist as an uninterrupted stream of self
same consciousness
which defines my identity. I think of my self as a nexus of
experiences to which I
have (or should have had) access along with similarly fuzzily defined
sturcture of
matter associated with them.
There is a mental disorder where one will not own portions of one's own
body.
It is as if that hand over there is doing things and I don't like it
but I can't get
away from it.
About a year before the third Indiana Jones movie came out I dreamed
the scene
where Indiana Jones is caught on a tank's cannon. This kind of thing
used to
happen to me quite a bit but talking about it makes people
uncomforatable so
I've done my best to suppress it. Well, last night it happened again.
I woke
with a start at exactly midnight (I looked at my watch) and realized I
had been
dreaming a movie scene. Unfortunately I didn't write it down so all I
can remember
is what is a very non-discript interior scene in a big house with a two
story entry
where what I believe is a father and son, the father in the center of
the entry and
the son, in his early twenties, rushing down the stairs, center to
right then across
the floor right to left, say "You just don't understand." as he crosses
center stage
but more conversation before and after which I cannot remember.
I've been thinking all day, "Why now?"
... and so where is that nexus of experiences? Do I include distance
viewing, if
that is what this is? Have I disassociated parts of me?
We've been having "Secret Santa" exchanges at work the last couple of
weeks.
This morning one of the women, a black woman, asked me if I had gotten
anything
yet. "No," I said, "not yet. I don't think I'll get anything bit I
don't care." "Well,"
she replied, "I got a bar of 'Fine Negro Chocolate' and don't know what
to think."
We discussed the issue for awhile. I said that many of us programmers
have
no social grace and we became programmers because little or none was
required.
It would be hard to tell but many of us wouldn't think about such
issues though
I wouldn't put it past someone with analytic skills and esoteric
knowledge to
go out of his way if so inclined.
For some reason I though, "When is a cigar just a cigar? ... and when
is a dream
just a dream?"
Someone could have thought "Spanish Chocolate? That's interesting."
and
just bought it, not thinking about the implications to the gift getter.
So I live in the moment. I'm still attached to this nexus of
experiences.
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
18 Dec 2005 11:54:27 PM |
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On 18 Dec 2005 20:23:20 -0800, "Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:
You guys forced the issue so I decided to come clean:
I have no identity.
In fact I don't really exist. Like this thread I'm just a figment of
your imagination.
Bret Cahill
You don't get off that easy. Your figment of selfhood goes much
deeper than imagination. Your putative volition has nothing to do with
it. It is built in same as your other qualia. Your self/identity has the same
existence as the color red, really.
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill
*************************
Phrase of the week :
There can hardly be a stranger commodity in the
world than books. Printed by people who don't
understand them; sold by people who don't understand
them; bound, criticized and read by people who don't
understand them, and now even written by people who
don't understand them.
-- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg (1742-1799)
:-))))Snort!)
**************************************
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: OK, I Admit I Have No Identity, No Self Perception |
19 Dec 2005 02:05:36 AM |
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"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:idicq1pins6a9tvucv2tq5k7saro3n3ji2@4ax.com...
On 18 Dec 2005 20:23:20 -0800, "Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:
You guys forced the issue so I decided to come clean:
I have no identity.
In fact I don't really exist. Like this thread I'm just a figment of
your imagination.
Bret Cahill
You don't get off that easy. Your figment of selfhood goes much
deeper than imagination. Your putative volition has nothing to do with
it. It is built in same as your other qualia. Your self/identity has the
same
existence as the color red, really.
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
OhhhhNo, It couldnt be.....Communist???
At least that it better than no identity at all.
Hey Bret, better to "take your own" than have one created for you.
BOfL
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