| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Sir Frederick" |
| Date: |
15 Oct 2007 10:21:59 PM |
| Object: |
On Deception |
"We" humans seem to need deception and self-deception,
as our models of what it is and means to be human depend
on those deceptions, "taking" or working (in a pragmatic sense).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception
Some of these deceptions occur at very deep
levels of our human condition, and if they are
threatened, may threaten our humanness.
Some sciences may incur threats to these
central deceptive models. Thus some sciences may
literally make us ill at ease in fundamental ways.
"We" must resolve these contentions before moving on.
Previous paradigm shifts caused by science have
allowed us to remain naive about ourselves. Today
we must start being honest about our deceptions
and choose to support them rather than merely
be naive.
--
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill
**************************************
Hirsi Ali: Well, it hasn’t been tamed like Christianity. See, the Christian powers have accepted the separation of the worldly and the divine. We don’t interfere with their religion, and they don’t interfere with the state. That hasn’t happened in Islam.
But I don’t even think that the trouble is Islam. The trouble is the West, because in the West there’s this notion that we are invincible and that everyone will modernize anyway, and that what we are seeing now in Muslim countries is a craving for respect. Or it’s poverty, or it’s caused by colonization.
The Western mind-set—that if we respect them, they’re going to respect us, that if we indulge and appease and condone and so on, the problem will go away—is delusional. The problem is not going to go away. Confront it, or it’s only going to get bigger.
**************************************
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| User: "tooly" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
16 Oct 2007 11:36:01 PM |
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"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:eia8h35s9pj4nk621h80ge3kfpr57ana40@4ax.com...
"We" humans seem to need deception and self-deception,
as our models of what it is and means to be human depend
on those deceptions, "taking" or working (in a pragmatic sense).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception
Some of these deceptions occur at very deep
levels of our human condition, and if they are
threatened, may threaten our humanness.
Some sciences may incur threats to these
central deceptive models. Thus some sciences may
literally make us ill at ease in fundamental ways.
"We" must resolve these contentions before moving on.
Previous paradigm shifts caused by science have
allowed us to remain naive about ourselves. Today
we must start being honest about our deceptions
and choose to support them rather than merely
be naive.
--
I have never bought into your ideas on deception. Or if I do, I must go all
the way and realize it is ALL a deception...life, consciousness, and all the
trappings we 'invent' to create the world we live within. You decieve
yourself that you could be so enlightened.
But I do make this corrorlary...that we begin on an open desert that is akin
to a blank canvas. We have a 360 degree freedom. Which way do we go?
If one guy is telling it all just a deception, while another is telling us
of horizons of hope and virtue...who do you think is followed? We can't
just lay down and go nowhere you see, or else we shrivel up and die.
There are many visionaries in the world. It remains that to exercise our
human will, we must stand with what we 'believe'. Simply saying one
'believes in nothing', or that 'believing' is some sort of delusionary
exercise of the brain, results in that one option we cannot take, to just
stand still and go nowhere.
So, I scan all the choices as I come upon them in my imaginary travels...and
at some point, I CHOOSE. That's all. I choose to stand with the thing I
can believe in the most, that offers me promise, hope, virtue, and some
vision of my own that we are 'going somewhere' as we proceed to that horizon
such believe points toward.
Instead of 'deception' I think it is our nature to believe in something. It
a power of mind and will together. To understand that it is not as illusive
as we might think, one has only to see how far we come to understand world's
are created upon the visions of yesterday. Are they perfect worlds?
Probably not, and much arguement can be wrested from this about delusion and
deception. But as the arrow points toward moons, the reality lands only at
the best we can muster, on the crust of this planet; no longer a barren
desert, but quite abundant.
Anyway, my 2cents on 'deceptions'. Anyone arguing this, I wonder how they
are themselves decieving themselves?
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
18 Oct 2007 11:32:54 AM |
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On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:36:01 -0400, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote:
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:eia8h35s9pj4nk621h80ge3kfpr57ana40@4ax.com...
"We" humans seem to need deception and self-deception,
as our models of what it is and means to be human depend
on those deceptions, "taking" or working (in a pragmatic sense).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception
Some of these deceptions occur at very deep
levels of our human condition, and if they are
threatened, may threaten our humanness.
Some sciences may incur threats to these
central deceptive models. Thus some sciences may
literally make us ill at ease in fundamental ways.
"We" must resolve these contentions before moving on.
Previous paradigm shifts caused by science have
allowed us to remain naive about ourselves. Today
we must start being honest about our deceptions
and choose to support them rather than merely
be naive.
--
I have never bought into your ideas on deception. Or if I do, I must go all
the way and realize it is ALL a deception...life, consciousness, and all the
trappings we 'invent' to create the world we live within. You decieve
yourself that you could be so enlightened.
But I do make this corrorlary...that we begin on an open desert that is akin
to a blank canvas. We have a 360 degree freedom. Which way do we go?
If one guy is telling it all just a deception, while another is telling us
of horizons of hope and virtue...who do you think is followed? We can't
just lay down and go nowhere you see, or else we shrivel up and die.
There are many visionaries in the world. It remains that to exercise our
human will, we must stand with what we 'believe'. Simply saying one
'believes in nothing', or that 'believing' is some sort of delusionary
exercise of the brain, results in that one option we cannot take, to just
stand still and go nowhere.
So, I scan all the choices as I come upon them in my imaginary travels...and
at some point, I CHOOSE. That's all. I choose to stand with the thing I
can believe in the most, that offers me promise, hope, virtue, and some
vision of my own that we are 'going somewhere' as we proceed to that horizon
such believe points toward.
Instead of 'deception' I think it is our nature to believe in something. It
a power of mind and will together. To understand that it is not as illusive
as we might think, one has only to see how far we come to understand world's
are created upon the visions of yesterday. Are they perfect worlds?
Probably not, and much arguement can be wrested from this about delusion and
deception. But as the arrow points toward moons, the reality lands only at
the best we can muster, on the crust of this planet; no longer a barren
desert, but quite abundant.
Anyway, my 2cents on 'deceptions'. Anyone arguing this, I wonder how they
are themselves decieving themselves?
I come upon my observations through applying professional
engineering experience to understanding myself and others.
"Deception" often occurs in software programming and use.
For instance "pointers" and "indirection".
"Deception" can be quite useful, if it "works".
Evolution seems to have found this so.
My point is that we must work our way out of our deceptions about our
deceptions. Our first level deceptions remain most useful.
Your "ALL" or nothing argument is not necessary.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
17 Oct 2007 09:05:47 AM |
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On 16 Okt, 05:21, Sir Frederick <mmcne...@fuzzysys.com> wrote:
Hirsi Ali: Well, it hasn't been tamed like Christianity. See, the Christian powers have accepted the separation of the worldly and the divine. We don't interfere with their religion, and they don't interfere with the state. That hasn't happened in Islam.
But I don't even think that the trouble is Islam. The trouble is the West, because in the West there's this notion that we are invincible and that everyone will modernize anyway, and that what we are seeing now in Muslim countries is a craving for respect. Or it's poverty, or it's caused by colonization.
The Western mind-set-that if we respect them, they're going to respect us, that if we indulge and appease and condone and so on, the problem will go away-is delusional. The problem is not going to go away. Confront it, or it's only going to get bigger.
didn't we just spend a trillion dollars on activities that stretch the
words 'indulge' 'appease' and 'condone' rather beyond any definition I
can think of?
Is it paying for scalps like we once did for NAs that he is looking
for?
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| User: "ZerkonX" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
17 Oct 2007 08:47:12 AM |
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On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 20:21:59 -0700, Sir Frederick wrote:
"We" humans seem to need deception..
Are ideals or goals deceptions?
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| User: "ta" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
16 Oct 2007 10:31:15 AM |
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On Oct 15, 11:21 pm, Sir Frederick <mmcne...@fuzzysys.com> wrote:
"We" humans seem to need deception and self-deception,
as our models of what it is and means to be human depend
on those deceptions, "taking" or working (in a pragmatic sense).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceptionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception
Some of these deceptions occur at very deep
levels of our human condition, and if they are
threatened, may threaten our humanness.
Some sciences may incur threats to these
central deceptive models. Thus some sciences may
literally make us ill at ease in fundamental ways.
"We" must resolve these contentions before moving on.
Previous paradigm shifts caused by science have
allowed us to remain naive about ourselves. Today
we must start being honest about our deceptions
and choose to support them rather than merely
be naive.
--
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcne...@fuzzysys.comhttp://www.fuzzysys.comhttp://members.cox.net/fmmcneill
**************************************
Hirsi Ali: Well, it hasn't been tamed like Christianity. See, the Christian powers have accepted the separation of the worldly and the divine. We don't interfere with their religion, and they don't interfere with the state. That hasn't happened in Islam.
But I don't even think that the trouble is Islam. The trouble is the West, because in the West there's this notion that we are invincible and that everyone will modernize anyway, and that what we are seeing now in Muslim countries is a craving for respect. Or it's poverty, or it's caused by colonization.
The Western mind-set-that if we respect them, they're going to respect us, that if we indulge and appease and condone and so on, the problem will go away-is delusional. The problem is not going to go away. Confront it, or it's only going to get bigger.
**************************************
Self-deception kicks in when there is some greater emotional need than
discovering the "truth". The emotional need trumps reality, so to
speak.
For example, the religious fundamentalist's need to feel secure is
greater than her need for self-awareness, so she is unable to perceive
her hypocrisy and self-deception. Taken to the extreme, they become
bona fide personality disorders.
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| User: "Day Brown" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
17 Oct 2007 03:55:16 PM |
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On Oct 16, 11:31 am, ta <padl...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
For example, the religious fundamentalist's need to feel secure is
greater than her need for self-awareness, so she is unable to perceive
her hypocrisy and self-deception. Taken to the extreme, they become
bona fide personality disorders.
Wallace, in his anthro classic, "Culture & Personality" noted that
when a culture is on the skids, and people's coping skills dont work
so well any more, they engage in "magical thinking". A term he coined.
Thus, the Fundies speak of "The Rapture", and we see astrology, Tarot,
I Ching, and what passes for "wicca". We also see the book sales from
the Christian & New Age sections of Barnes & Noble or Waldon do really
well, with insane rants by, as Nietzsche put it, "fake idealists".
I've posted at 'wiccan' and 'new age' lists about the French
expeditions to central Asia 100 years ago, where they shipped back
truckloads of documents preserved in the ghost towns of the Kara Kum
and Taklamakhan deserts. This was all ignored, to sit in museum
basements after the chaos of WWI and then the rise of Communism.
But, with the opening of China, expeditions are again taking a look.
The French went down into the cellars to see what they already had,
and translated into French- "magic spells" and "herbal recipes" left
by *genuine* witches going well back into the early 1st Millennia.
This is the real McCoy, not the drivel produced by Gardner, Mdm
Blatavsky, Ravenwolf, Crowley, or whoever.
The silence has been just deafening.
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| User: "Wordsmith" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
16 Oct 2007 12:25:04 AM |
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On Oct 15, 9:21 pm, Sir Frederick <mmcne...@fuzzysys.com> wrote:
"We" humans seem to need deception and self-deception,
as our models of what it is and means to be human depend
on those deceptions, "taking" or working (in a pragmatic sense).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceptionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception
Some of these deceptions occur at very deep
levels of our human condition, and if they are
threatened, may threaten our humanness.
Some sciences may incur threats to these
central deceptive models. Thus some sciences may
literally make us ill at ease in fundamental ways.
"We" must resolve these contentions before moving on.
Previous paradigm shifts caused by science have
allowed us to remain naive about ourselves. Today
we must start being honest about our deceptions
and choose to support them rather than merely
be naive.
--
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcne...@fuzzysys.comhttp://www.fuzzysys.comhttp://members.cox.net/fmmcneill
**************************************
Hirsi Ali: Well, it hasn't been tamed like Christianity. See, the Christian powers have accepted the separation of the worldly and the divine. We don't interfere with their religion, and they don't interfere with the state. That hasn't happened in Islam.
But I don't even think that the trouble is Islam. The trouble is the West, because in the West there's this notion that we are invincible and that everyone will modernize anyway, and that what we are seeing now in Muslim countries is a craving for respect. Or it's poverty, or it's caused by colonization.
The Western mind-set-that if we respect them, they're going to respect us, that if we indulge and appease and condone and so on, the problem will go away-is delusional. The problem is not going to go away. Confront it, or it's only going to get bigger.
**************************************
Be cured of self-deception...stare into a mirror for an hour.
W : )
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| User: "Sean" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
16 Oct 2007 01:01:31 AM |
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self-deception is a wonderful thing. It helps one survive!!!
apart from that, self-awareness is also wonderful ... so while looking in
the mirror .... ask yourself "what do I really really know?"
as opposed to have just been told, or believed to be true ... about you, me,
the world, and everything? ;-))
"Wordsmith" <wordsmith@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:1192512304.012331.315700@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 15, 9:21 pm, Sir Frederick <mmcne...@fuzzysys.com> wrote:
"We" humans seem to need deception and self-deception,
as our models of what it is and means to be human depend
on those deceptions, "taking" or working (in a pragmatic
sense).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceptionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception
Some of these deceptions occur at very deep
levels of our human condition, and if they are
threatened, may threaten our humanness.
Some sciences may incur threats to these
central deceptive models. Thus some sciences may
literally make us ill at ease in fundamental ways.
"We" must resolve these contentions before moving on.
Previous paradigm shifts caused by science have
allowed us to remain naive about ourselves. Today
we must start being honest about our deceptions
and choose to support them rather than merely
be naive.
--
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcne...@fuzzysys.comhttp://www.fuzzysys.comhttp://members.cox.net/fmmcneill
**************************************
Hirsi Ali: Well, it hasn't been tamed like Christianity. See, the
Christian powers have accepted the separation of the worldly and the
divine. We don't interfere with their religion, and they don't interfere
with the state. That hasn't happened in Islam.
But I don't even think that the trouble is Islam. The trouble is the
West, because in the West there's this notion that we are invincible and
that everyone will modernize anyway, and that what we are seeing now in
Muslim countries is a craving for respect. Or it's poverty, or it's
caused by colonization.
The Western mind-set-that if we respect them, they're going to respect
us, that if we indulge and appease and condone and so on, the problem
will go away-is delusional. The problem is not going to go away. Confront
it, or it's only going to get bigger.
**************************************
Be cured of self-deception...stare into a mirror for an hour.
W : )
.
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| User: "Anthony G. Rubino" |
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| Title: Re: On Deception |
16 Oct 2007 08:35:05 AM |
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Deception depends on confusion: remove the confusion and the deception
goes with it.
Confusion of what appears to be with what is depends on choices that are
motivated by a desire to be satisfied.
Deceptions are easily accepted because they are designed to satisfy some
biased desire.
Tony, philosopher
http://www.geocities.com/trisector/
So many misconceptions, so little time.
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