| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Suzana" |
| Date: |
13 Sep 2007 12:12:41 PM |
| Object: |
On mind and body |
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level. But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level. I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Suzana
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| User: "AH#2 2.2.2" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
13 Sep 2007 02:25:05 PM |
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"Suzana" <suznet@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189703561.415035.4120@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
A brain/person devoid of emotion would not care if his reasoning was flawed,
even if he made a choice that was wrong and put him in pain or killed him.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
13 Sep 2007 05:58:13 PM |
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"AH#2" <2.2.2> wrote in message news:13ej3kih4tq2g2d@news.supernews.com...
"Suzana" <suznet@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189703561.415035.4120@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
A brain/person devoid of emotion would not care if his reasoning was
flawed, even if he made a choice that was wrong and put him in pain or
killed him.
All reasoning is flawed. Its a matter of degrees of effect the reasoning
has.
Hitler had a great ability to "reason" and was quite emotional when it
suited him.
BOfL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 09:35:23 AM |
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On 14 Sep, 00:58, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"AH#2" <2.2.2> wrote in messagenews:13ej3kih4tq2g2d@news.supernews.com...
"Suzana" <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189703561.415035.4120@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
A brain/person devoid of emotion would not care if his reasoning was
flawed, even if he made a choice that was wrong and put him in pain or
killed him.
All reasoning is flawed. Its a matter of degrees of effect the reasoning
has.
Hitler had a great ability to "reason" and was quite emotional when it
suited him.
BOfL
- D=F6lj citerad text -
- Visa citerad text -
Hitler, Hitler. Men who fear their emotions think they would be
Hitler if they really felt them. could be true. who knew. But not
true for me. Hilter only allowed anger. He kept the others in
check. Stuffed them down. He hated his own fear. He was rigid. He
did not accept his emotions. He used one. He used anger. He
practiced in front of the mirror. Timing the expression of this
anger. Like a machine. L=EDke dance steps of hate. And all his
gestures, planned. In detail. Like those guys at airports with those
shiny paddles directing planes. Not very emotional. Not at all.
Sure. If you allow one emotion and shut down all the others. This is
a problem. It only goes to make her case even stronger. We must let
them all through.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 10:57:15 AM |
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<goodforthegander@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189780523.947950.211940@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On 14 Sep, 00:58, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"AH#2" <2.2.2> wrote in messagenews:13ej3kih4tq2g2d@news.supernews.com...
"Suzana" <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189703561.415035.4120@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
A brain/person devoid of emotion would not care if his reasoning was
flawed, even if he made a choice that was wrong and put him in pain or
killed him.
All reasoning is flawed. Its a matter of degrees of effect the reasoning
has.
Hitler had a great ability to "reason" and was quite emotional when it
suited him.
BOfL
- Dölj citerad text -
- Visa citerad text -
Hitler, Hitler. Men who fear their emotions think they would be
Hitler if they really felt them. could be true. who knew. But not
true for me. Hilter only allowed anger. He kept the others in
check. Stuffed them down. He hated his own fear. He was rigid. He
did not accept his emotions. He used one. He used anger. He
practiced in front of the mirror. Timing the expression of this
anger. Like a machine. Líke dance steps of hate. And all his
gestures, planned. In detail. Like those guys at airports with those
shiny paddles directing planes. Not very emotional. Not at all.
Sure. If you allow one emotion and shut down all the others. This is
a problem. It only goes to make her case even stronger. We must let
them all through.
If only you had been arond early last century. Could have avoided a lot of
inconveniences, like ww2.
BOfL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
15 Sep 2007 04:58:15 AM |
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On 14 Sep, 17:57, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
If only you had been arond early last century. Could have avoided a lot of
inconveniences, like ww2.
Who could have?
Irony?
I was around. Weren't you? Must have forgotten.
Source was not accepting emotion.
That was not source.
I remember.
Stiffest hold on emotions in European History, Hitler tip of iceberg.
Poles up the *****. Hierachical workplace.
Poker faces.
Control.
No, emotions were not to blame.
But that does not mean I did not try. And it does not mean I was
wrong because I failed to help much.
Did your viewpoint help back then?
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
16 Sep 2007 08:52:46 AM |
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<goodforthegander@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189850295.271314.8200@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On 14 Sep, 17:57, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
If only you had been arond early last century. Could have avoided a lot
of
inconveniences, like ww2.
Who could have?
Irony?
I was around. Weren't you? Must have forgotten.
When the experience has been validated, is goes into the deeper archives.
Source was not accepting emotion.
That was not source.
I remember.
Stiffest hold on emotions in European History, Hitler tip of iceberg.
My whole point was regarding his use of emotions.
Poles up the *****. Hierachical workplace.
Poker faces.
Control.
No, emotions were not to blame.
No blame allocated, only facets identified.
But that does not mean I did not try. And it does not mean I was
wrong because I failed to help much.
Did your viewpoint help back then?
Not in the way that most would consider help to mean.
BOfL
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 12:53:14 AM |
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IMO "feelings" and "mind" are forms of qualia.
They are "self" qualia in addition to the well known
"sensor" qualia. So explain qualia.
The behavior influences of feelings and all, are obvious.
Qualia are the mysteries.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
13 Sep 2007 10:19:53 PM |
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On Sep 13, 10:12 am, Suzana <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
An evolutionary perspective leads one to view the mind as a crowded
zoo of evolved, domain-specific programs. Each is functionally
specialized for solving a different adaptive problem that arose during
hominid evolutionary history, such as face recognition, foraging, mate
choice, heart rate regulation, sleep management, or predator
vigilance, and each is activated by a different set of cues from the
environment. But the existence of all these microprograms itself
creates an adaptive problem: Programs that are individually designed
to solve specific adaptive problems could, if simultaneously
activated, deliver outputs that conflict with one another, interfering
with or nullifying each other's functional products. For example,
sleep and flight from a predator require mutually inconsistent
actions, computations, and physiological states. It is difficult to
sleep when your heart and mind are racing with fear, and this is no
accident: disastrous consequences would ensue if proprioceptive cues
were activating sleep programs at the same time that the sight of a
stalking lion was activating ones designed for predator evasion. To
avoid such consequences, the mind must be equipped with superordinate
programs that override some programs when others are activated (e.g.,
a program that deactivates sleep programs when predator evasion
subroutines are activated). Furthermore, many adaptive problems are
best solved by the simultaneous activation of many different
components of the cognitive architecture, such that each component
assumes one of several alternative states (e.g., predator avoidance
may require simultaneous shifts in both heart rate and auditory
acuity; see below). Again, a superordinate program is needed that
coordinates these components, snapping each into the right
configuration at the right time.
Emotions are such programs. To behave functionally according to
evolutionary standards, the mind's many subprograms need to be
orchestrated so that their joint product at any given time is
functionally coordinated, rather than cacophonous and self-defeating.
This coordination is accomplished by a set of superordinate programs -
the emotions. They are adaptations that have arisen in response to the
adaptive problem of mechanism orchestration (Tooby & Cosmides, 1990a;
Tooby, 1985). In this view, the exploration of the statistical
structure of ancestral situations and their relationship to the mind's
battery of functionally specialized programs is central to mapping the
emotions. This is because the most useful (or least harmful)
deployment of programs at any given time will depend critically on the
exact nature of the confronting situation.
How did emotions arise and assume their distinctive structures?
Fighting, falling in love, escaping predators, confronting sexual
infidelity, experiencing a failure-driven loss in status, responding
to the death of a family member (and so on) each involved conditions,
contingencies, situations, or event-types that recurred innumerable
times in hominid evolutionary history. Repeated encounters with each
kind of situation selected for adaptations that guided information-
processing, behavior and the body adaptively through the clusters of
conditions, demands, and contingencies that characterized that
particular class of situation. This could be accomplished by
engineering superordinate programs, each of which jointly mobilizes a
subset of the psychological architecture's other programs in a
particular configuration. Each configuration would be selected to
deploy computational and physiological mechanisms in a way that, when
averaged over individuals and generations, would have led to the most
fitness-promoting subsequent lifetime outcome given that ancestral
situation-type.
This coordinated adjustment and entrainment of mechanisms is a mode of
operation for the entire psychological architecture, and serves as the
basis for a precise computational and functional definition of each
emotion state (Tooby & Cosmides, 1990a; Tooby, 1985). Each emotion
entrains various other adaptive programs - deactivating some,
activating others, and adjusting the modifiable parameters of still
others - so that the whole system operates in a particularly
harmonious and efficacious way when the individual is confronting
certain kinds of triggering conditions or situations. The conditions
or situations relevant to the emotions are those that (1) recurred
ancestrally; (2) could not be negotiated successfully unless there was
a superordinate level of program coordination (i.e., circumstances in
which the independent operation of programs caused no conflicts would
not have selected for an emotion program, and would lead to
emotionally neutral states of mind); (3) had a rich and reliable
repeated structure; (4) had recognizable cues signaling their
presence; and (5) in which an error would have resulted in large
fitness costs (Tooby & Cosmides, 1990a; Tooby, 1985). When a condition
or situation of an evolutionarily recognizable kind is detected, a
signal is sent out from the emotion program that activates the
specific constellation of subprograms appropriate to solving the type
of adaptive problems that were regularly embedded in that situation,
and deactivates programs whose operation might interfere with solving
those types of adaptive problem. Programs directed to remain active
may be cued to enter subroutines that are specific to that emotion
mode, and that were tailored by natural selection to solve the
problems inherent in the triggering situation with special efficiency.
According to this theoretical framework, an emotion is a superordinate
program whose function is to direct the activities and interactions of
the subprograms governing perception; attention; inference; learning;
memory; goal choice; motivational priorities; categorization and
conceptual frameworks; physiological reactions (such as heart rate,
endocrine function, immune function, gamete release); reflexes;
behavioral decision rules; motor systems; communication processes;
energy level and effort allocation; affective coloration of events and
stimuli; recalibration of probability estimates, situation
assessments, values, and regulatory variables (e.g., self-esteem,
estimations of relative formidability, relative value of alternative
goal states, efficacy discount rate); and so on. An emotion is not
reducible to any one category of effects, such as effects on
physiology, behavioral inclinations, cognitive appraisals, or feeling
states, because it involves evolved instructions for all of them
together, as well as other mechanisms distributed throughout the human
mental and physical architecture...
....Specialized inference: Research in evolutionary psychology has
shown "thinking" and reasoning is not a unitary category, but is
carried out by a variety of specialized mechanisms. So, instead of
emotion activating or depressing "thinking" in general, the specific
emotion program activated should selectively activate appropriate
specialized inferential systems, such as cheater detection (Cosmides
1989; Cosmides & Tooby 1989, 1992), bluff detection (Tooby & Cosmides,
1989), precaution detection (Fiddick, Cosmides & Tooby, in press),
attributions of blame and responsibility, and so on. We are presently
conducting research to see whether, as predicted, fear influences
precautionary reasoning, competitive loss regulates bluff detection,
and so on...
....Learning: Emotion mode is expected to regulate learning mechanisms.
What someone learns from stimuli will be greatly altered by emotion
mode, because of attentional allocation, motivation, situation-
specific inferential algorithms, and a host of other factors. Emotion
mode will cause the present context to be divided up into situation-
specific functionally appropriate categories so that the same stimuli
and the same environment may be interpreted in radically different
ways, depending on emotion state. For example, which stimuli are
considered similar should be different in different emotion states,
distorting the shape of the individual's psychological "similarity
space" (Shepard 1987). Highly specialized learning mechanisms might be
activated, such as those that control food aversions (Garcia, 1990) or
predator learning (Mineka & Cooke, 1985), or fear conditioning
(LeDoux, 1995). Happiness is expected to signal the energetic
opportunity for play, and allow other exploratory agendas to be
expressed (Frederickson, 1998)...
http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/emotion.html
http://mechanism.ucsd.edu/~bill/teaching/philbiology/EvolutionaryTheoriesofEmotion.pdf
http://www.brainandevolution.blogspot.com/2007/05/moral-emotions-vs-moral-reasoning.html
http://www.flyfishingdevon.co.uk/salmon/year3/psy364emotions/psy364_emotions_evolutionary_psychobiolog.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=limbic+system
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level. But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level. I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Suzana
Sounds like an automobile that can roll down the highway without
wheels, probably won't work. Emotions came before higher reasoning
skills, which were built on top of emotional centers of the brain,
which in turn evolved on top of a lizards brain; the brain stem.
Paul MacLean suggests that the human brain is actually three brains in
one. Each of the layers or "brains" were established successively in
response to evolutionary need. The three layers are the reptilian
system, or R-complex, the limbic system, and the neocortex. Each layer
is geared toward separate functions of the brain, but all three layers
interact substantially.
The Reptilian Complex - The R-complex consists of the brain stem and
the cerebellum. Its purpose is closely related to actual physical
survival and maintenance of the body. The cerebellum orchestrates
movement. Digestion, reproduction, circulation, breathing, and the
execution of the "fight or flight" response in stress are all housed
in the brain stem. Because the reptilian brain is primarily concerned
with physical survival, the behaviors it governs have much in common
with the survival behaviors of animals. It plays a crucial role in
establishing home territory, reproduction and social dominance. The
overriding characteristics of R-complex behaviors are that they are
automatic, have a ritualistic quality, and are highly resistant to
change.
The Limbic System - The limbic system, the second brain to evolve,
houses the primary centers of emotion. It includes the amygdala, which
is important in the association of events with emotion, and the
hippocampus, which is active in converting information into long term
memory and in memory recall. Repeated use of specialized nerve
networks in the hippocampus enhances memory storage, so this structure
is involved in learning from both commonplace experiences and
deliberate study. However, it is not necessary to retain every bit of
information one learns. Some neuroscientists believe that the
hippocampus helps select which memories are stored, perhaps by
attaching an "emotion marker" to some events so that they are likely
to be recalled. The amygdala comes into play in situations that arouse
feelings such as fear, pity, anger, or outrage. Damage to the amygdala
can abolish an emotion-charged memory. Because the limbic system links
emotions with behavior, it serves to inhibit the R-complex and its
preference for ritualistic, habitual ways of responding.
The limbic system is also involved in primal activities related to
food and sex, particularly having to do with our sense of smell and
bonding needs, and activities related to expression and mediation of
emotions and feelings, including emotions linked to attachment. These
protective, loving feelings become increasingly complex as the limbic
system and the neocortex link up.
The Neocortex - Also called the cerebral cortex, the neocortex
constitutes five-sixths of the human brain. It is the outer portion of
our brain, and is approximately the size of a newspaper page crumpled
together. The neocortex makes language, including speech and writing
possible. It renders logical and formal operational thinking possible
and allows us to see ahead and plan for the future. The neocortex also
contains two specialized regions, one dedicated to voluntary movement
and one to processing sensory information.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=triune+brain
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 09:42:14 AM |
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On 14 Sep, 05:19, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Emotions are such programs. To behave functionally according to
evolutionary standards, the mind's many subprograms need to be
orchestrated so that their joint product at any given time is
functionally coordinated, rather than cacophonous and self-defeating.
This coordination is accomplished by a set of superordinate programs -
the emotions.....
Must be sad to be so far from oneself. To think of emotions as
programs. To fear hackers perhaps and the scratches in the disks
caused by age. To think of oneself as little patterns, almost like
words. To be so far from the emotions. Is that the purpose? To be
so far from them, they seem like highway patterns in a city at night.
I identify with one corner of the self and look out at the rest. To
say I am on deck and I can see the whole ship. I am not in the cabins
simply swaying at the whim of the waves, but up here, in control. A
captain. Or at least one with a good vantage.
And it can be scary underdeck.
But there is so much life here.
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| User: "S. Jouanny" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
16 Sep 2007 03:14:37 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:12:41 -0700, Suzana <suznet@hwcn.org> wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
Emotions might influence our reasoning and get the better of them; but
whether something's true or not is independent of how we might feel
about it. That's maybe what you'd call an "unpleasant truth".
Feelings are subjective values, more often than not, and objective
values are things like right/wrong.
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| User: "Suzana" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
17 Sep 2007 05:05:04 PM |
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On Sep 16, 4:14 pm, S. Jouanny <stevenjouanzolaamd...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:12:41 -0700, Suzana <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
Emotions might influence our reasoning and get the better of them; but
whether something's true or not is independent of how we might feel
about it. That's maybe what you'd call an "unpleasant truth".
Feelings are subjective values, more often than not, and objective
values are things like right/wrong.
Well said.
Although I think even right/wrong can be subjective. Remember the
saying every terrorist is somebody's freedom fighter? ...interestingly
enough I can't think of objective example at this moment.....:-)
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| User: "ZerkonX" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
18 Sep 2007 08:31:24 AM |
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On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:12:41 -0700, Suzana wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning?
What if both are actually the same process and we only think them
different? When is either entirely void of the other?
Emotions are said to 'cloud' reason but can't reason also cloud emotion?
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| User: "Suzana" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
18 Sep 2007 05:03:47 PM |
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On Sep 18, 9:31 am, ZerkonX <ZER...@zerkonx.net> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:12:41 -0700, Suzana wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning?
What if both are actually the same process and we only think them
different? When is either entirely void of the other?
That is precisely what I was going at.
Emotions are said to 'cloud' reason but can't reason also cloud emotion?
Interesting question. Reminds me of proverb: those who always obey
reason loose their heart.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
13 Sep 2007 05:56:08 PM |
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Some excellent points.....
"Suzana" <suznet@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189703561.415035.4120@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning?
I find it more illuminating if I equate mental states with physical
equivalents. Emotions are a part of "the body", just like bacteria is. God,
bad and balanced.
It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
Balance can appear to be a case of "shut off", or can be conscious harmony
between the "good and the bad"..where the emotions are neutralised.
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
To have remorse, is to not understand why things happen. I remember the
"sickly" comment fom Love Story, now cliched. "Love never means having to
say you are sorry". Very misunderstood 'lofty" truth.
Many of the cases you refer to are made worse due to the lack of
understanding from their family/aquaintences.Because I dont get caught up in
the emotional turmoil, I am often accused of being "unfeeling".
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
There comes a time "when taken at the flood" that searching becomes finding,
when curiosity, hope,fear etc are no longer necessary components. Like thge
body analogy, certain parts become redundant.
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level.
The vast majority of people are still dominated by instincts.
But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level.
Yes. An instinctive feeling to "find out"
I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Well said.
BOfL
Suzana
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| User: "kevirwin" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
13 Sep 2007 06:21:41 PM |
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On Sep 13, 6:56 pm, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
<quote>
I find it more illuminating if I equate mental states with physical
equivalents. Emotions are a part of "the body", just like bacteria is. God,
bad and balanced.
<end quote>
Hey brian, Did you mean "Good", vice "God"???? Freudian slip???
maybe I misunderstood (that happens alot in my communications with
others)
K e v
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 12:58:42 AM |
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"kevirwin" <kevirwin@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1189725701.876921.185060@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 13, 6:56 pm, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
<quote>
I find it more illuminating if I equate mental states with physical
equivalents. Emotions are a part of "the body", just like bacteria is.
God,
bad and balanced.
<end quote>
Hey brian, Did you mean "Good", vice "God"???? Freudian slip???
maybe I misunderstood (that happens alot in my communications with
others)
K e v
Good God, another ***** up :-) I'll bloody strangle Freud with that slip of
his...
BOfL
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| User: "Suzana" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 01:01:14 PM |
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On Sep 13, 6:56 pm, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Some excellent points.....
"Suzana" <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189703561.415035.4120@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning?
I find it more illuminating if I equate mental states with physical
equivalents. Emotions are a part of "the body", just like bacteria is. God,
bad and balanced.
S: Hey Brian, good to hear from you.
And yes that what I am going for, emotion as part of our body and a
very important part of our body.
It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
Balance can appear to be a case of "shut off", or can be conscious harmony
between the "good and the bad"..where the emotions are neutralised.
S; That's just it, even when you think there is balance and you are
calm it's just another state of being that involves emotions.
And in that case could be feeling content, satisfied so it appears
neutral.
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
To have remorse, is to not understand why things happen.
S; I am not sure what you are saying here. I believe remorse is
feeling empathy for pain and suffering ones actions caused.
I remember the
"sickly" comment fom Love Story, now cliched. "Love never means having to
say you are sorry". Very misunderstood 'lofty" truth.
Many of the cases you refer to are made worse due to the lack of
understanding from their family/aquaintences.Because I dont get caught up in
the emotional turmoil, I am often accused of being "unfeeling".
S; You are referring to someone who appears to lack emotions I am
referring to people who really lack some emotions....as people with
brain injury or people who are committed to psychiatric hospital. I
don't think we (as species) can be normal without having certain range
of emotions.
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
There comes a time "when taken at the flood" that searching becomes finding,
when curiosity, hope,fear etc are no longer necessary components. Like thge
body analogy, certain parts become redundant.
S; Not at all. All this emotions are necessary part of our being. You
are alive today because you don't lack hope, you haven't killed
someone today because you would not inflict unnecessary suffering, and
later on perhaps you will feel to go for a walk because your body will
sent signals to your brain that it needs Vitamin D.....etc
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level.
The vast majority of people are still dominated by instincts.
S; Not dominated but definitely influenced. What I am trying to say is
that it's not a bad thing, it's part of our natural make up.
But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level.
Yes. An instinctive feeling to "find out"
I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Well said.
Thank you.
Suzana
BOfL
Suzana- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 08:12:37 PM |
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"Suzana" <suznet@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189792874.742043.219950@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 13, 6:56 pm, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Some excellent points.....
"Suzana" <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189703561.415035.4120@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning?
I find it more illuminating if I equate mental states with physical
equivalents. Emotions are a part of "the body", just like bacteria is.
God,
bad and balanced.
S: Hey Brian, good to hear from you.
And yes that what I am going for, emotion as part of our body and a
very important part of our body.
It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
Balance can appear to be a case of "shut off", or can be conscious
harmony
between the "good and the bad"..where the emotions are neutralised.
S; That's just it, even when you think there is balance and you are
calm it's just another state of being that involves emotions.
And in that case could be feeling content, satisfied so it appears
neutral.
Another example of the difference between thinking and knowing.
Knowing is being "above" the emotions. Thinking is equivalent to the "shut
off" example.This position usually magnifies the emotional disposition.
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
To have remorse, is to not understand why things happen.
S; I am not sure what you are saying here. I believe remorse is
feeling empathy for pain and suffering ones actions caused.
I'm associating remorse with regret with my definition..
To completely grasp empathy is to recognise that every event is essential,
and created by each party.
To feel remorse is to be still caught up in the events, and invariably
involves 'repeat performance', hence 'repeat offenders'.
To know that in its totality, is to have empathy for everybody.
I remember the
"sickly" comment fom Love Story, now cliched. "Love never means having to
say you are sorry". Very misunderstood 'lofty" truth.
Many of the cases you refer to are made worse due to the lack of
understanding from their family/aquaintences.Because I dont get caught up
in
the emotional turmoil, I am often accused of being "unfeeling".
S; You are referring to someone who appears to lack emotions I am
referring to people who really lack some emotions....as people with
brain injury or people who are committed to psychiatric hospital. I
don't think we (as species) can be normal without having certain range
of emotions.
Agreed, which is why I pointed out the different positions one can take with
respect to ones own emotions.Part of conscious growth is ones abuility of
"getting over" emotions. Yours and others.
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
There comes a time "when taken at the flood" that searching becomes
finding,
when curiosity, hope,fear etc are no longer necessary components. Like
thge
body analogy, certain parts become redundant.
S; Not at all. All this emotions are necessary part of our being.
The appendix was one example I was referring to. Thats a long term
development. Constant is the law of inaction. If you dont use it you lose
it.
You
are alive today because you don't lack hope, you haven't killed
someone today because you would not inflict unnecessary suffering, and
later on perhaps you will feel to go for a walk because your body will
sent signals to your brain that it needs Vitamin D.....etc
A good example of consciousness expansion not being a matter of seeing
different things, but seeing things differently.
To be specific. If I get trapped in a ravine, I "hope" I get out. That can
trigger greater survival faculties. Many people are caught up in such a hope
on a daily basis, which evokes the same hormonal response. Totally out of
kilter. Like having the scarcity mentality surrounded by abundance.Major
stress contributer.
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level.
The vast majority of people are still dominated by instincts.
S; Not dominated but definitely influenced. What I am trying to say is
that it's not a bad thing, it's part of our natural make up.
Got to put them in their correct order. The majority have not yet done that.
Thats one of the significant self awareness challenges.
BOfL
But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level.
Yes. An instinctive feeling to "find out"
I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Well said.
Thank you.
Suzana
BOfL
Suzana- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
15 Sep 2007 05:11:40 AM |
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On 15 Sep, 03:12, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Agreed, which is why I pointed out the different positions one can take with
respect to ones own emotions.Part of conscious growth is ones abuility of
"getting over" emotions. Yours and others.
If you love the emotions they get over themselves. How do you love,
that is the question? You set them free.
S; Not at all. All this emotions are necessary part of our being.
The appendix was one example I was referring to. Thats a long term
development. Constant is the law of inaction. If you dont use it you lose
it.
Good analogy. Many people have doctors take out emotions they don't
like. Bad analogy. They used to take out tonsils, now they regret
much of that cutting.
A good example of consciousness expansion not being a matter of seeing
different things, but seeing things differently.
To be specific. If I get trapped in a ravine, I "hope" I get out. That can
trigger greater survival faculties. Many people are caught up in such a hope
on a daily basis, which evokes the same hormonal response. Totally out of
kilter. Like having the scarcity mentality surrounded by abundance.Major
stress contributer.
Would slaves have been making the same mistake? Were they wrong to
get caught up in the hope on a daily basis? By whose criteria do we
see today as so close we can blame emotions for being wrong?
Those with very thin emotions think its best to have thin emotions.
Like the storks saying owls have short legs. Poor storks do not see
well in the dark. Not not poor. That is the fall into the same trap.
Here in the dark, where the moon rules.
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
16 Sep 2007 09:04:16 AM |
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<goodforthegander@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189851100.239594.87640@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On 15 Sep, 03:12, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Agreed, which is why I pointed out the different positions one can take
with
respect to ones own emotions.Part of conscious growth is ones abuility of
"getting over" emotions. Yours and others.
If you love the emotions they get over themselves. How do you love,
that is the question? You set them free.
Spiritual love frees everything, knowingly.
No enlightenment, carry water , chop wood. Enlightemnent, pay someone else
to do it....:-)...or not.
S; Not at all. All this emotions are necessary part of our being.
The appendix was one example I was referring to. Thats a long term
development. Constant is the law of inaction. If you dont use it you lose
it.
Good analogy. Many people have doctors take out emotions they don't
like. Bad analogy. They used to take out tonsils, now they regret
much of that cutting.
A good example of consciousness expansion not being a matter of seeing
different things, but seeing things differently.
To be specific. If I get trapped in a ravine, I "hope" I get out. That
can
trigger greater survival faculties. Many people are caught up in such a
hope
on a daily basis, which evokes the same hormonal response. Totally out of
kilter. Like having the scarcity mentality surrounded by abundance.Major
stress contributer.
Would slaves have been making the same mistake?
No. Tjhey had enough to contend with
Were they wrong to
get caught up in the hope on a daily basis?
That question equally can apply to long term prisoners today (or 'slaves' to
habit and desire).
Best get on with it.
I see all such projections as signals from the authentic self looking for
recognitiopn, so the answers are different.
By whose criteria do we
see today as so close we can blame emotions for being wrong?
"group" criteria. There is no "wrong" in my book.
Hitled had appointments to keep, and was suitably equipped.
Those with very thin emotions think its best to have thin emotions.
If you challenge that belief they can become quite emotional ;-)
I heard some language schollor once explain that in some particular language
, the letter 'e' as a prefix means "retro"....fits, if you consider that
emotion can take one back, or at least block ones growth.
BOfL
Like the storks saying owls have short legs. Poor storks do not see
well in the dark. Not not poor. That is the fall into the same trap.
Here in the dark, where the moon rules.
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| User: "Day Brown" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
15 Sep 2007 05:50:11 AM |
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Complicating the biochemistry of emotions are the reports from bog
body stomachs and bone middens that show Native Europeans evolved
eating over 100 wild plants and animals besides the familiar crops
like grain or livestock.
And that provided a wide variety of trace minerals and micro-nutrients
that were absorbed by the plants that the developing minds of children
expect to be there. When they are not, the limbic system is likely to
accept any molecule that looks close enough. Like organo-phosphates,
which are dumped on agribusiness veggies to control bugs. It only
takes homeopathic levels of the wrong chemical to have a powerful
adverse effect depending on your development and genetic endowment, or
lack thereof.
Agribusiness does not farm, it mines soil. It adds Nitrogen,
Phophorus, & Potash. [that's a period] This maximizes tonnage, but
minimizes real nutrition. The dietary deficit and contamination, plus
indoor and outdoor chemical exposure, messes with the biochemistry of
the mind. Which is how Bush got elected.
Actually, its not a new phenomena; the power elites have always gone
into monoculture to feed the slave classes as cheaply as possible.
This is why the ancient sages all agree that the best life has to
offer is in a rural community tending a garden. And why they all agree
that the pagans, who still ate their traditional diet, were honest,
hard working, & had common sense.
Some are lucky, turn out rational despite being raised on sugar
cereals, junk food, & soda. But we see how the masses are. Sometimes
its, as mentioned, PMS, but also allergies, asthma, and a host of the
more obvious physical conditions. But we also now know that the
biochemistry of the body affects that of the mind, and vice versus.
For a lot of people, the words of the wise dont make it to the
prefrontal lobes. Not even poetry and art makes it. Those who speak do
not know, and those who know do not speak. They know what a waste of
time it is. "All lies in jest til a man hears what he wants to hear
and disregards the rest."
I have very few friends cause there are just not that many sentient
beings around.
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
16 Sep 2007 09:09:18 AM |
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"Day Brown" <daybrown@hughes.net> wrote in message
news:1189853411.337128.230080@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Complicating the biochemistry of emotions are the reports from bog
body stomachs and bone middens that show Native Europeans evolved
eating over 100 wild plants and animals besides the familiar crops
like grain or livestock.
And that provided a wide variety of trace minerals and micro-nutrients
that were absorbed by the plants that the developing minds of children
expect to be there. When they are not, the limbic system is likely to
accept any molecule that looks close enough. Like organo-phosphates,
which are dumped on agribusiness veggies to control bugs. It only
takes homeopathic levels of the wrong chemical to have a powerful
adverse effect depending on your development and genetic endowment, or
lack thereof.
Agribusiness does not farm, it mines soil. It adds Nitrogen,
Phophorus, & Potash. [that's a period] This maximizes tonnage, but
minimizes real nutrition. The dietary deficit and contamination, plus
indoor and outdoor chemical exposure, messes with the biochemistry of
the mind. Which is how Bush got elected.
Actually, its not a new phenomena; the power elites have always gone
into monoculture to feed the slave classes as cheaply as possible.
This is why the ancient sages all agree that the best life has to
offer is in a rural community tending a garden. And why they all agree
that the pagans, who still ate their traditional diet, were honest,
hard working, & had common sense.
Some are lucky, turn out rational despite being raised on sugar
cereals, junk food, & soda. But we see how the masses are. Sometimes
its, as mentioned, PMS, but also allergies, asthma, and a host of the
more obvious physical conditions. But we also now know that the
biochemistry of the body affects that of the mind, and vice versus.
For a lot of people, the words of the wise dont make it to the
prefrontal lobes. Not even poetry and art makes it. Those who speak do
not know, and those who know do not speak. They know what a waste of
time it is. "All lies in jest til a man hears what he wants to hear
and disregards the rest."
It takes good boxing skills to discover that wisdom.:-)
I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains.
I have very few friends cause there are just not that many sentient
beings around.
Can appear to be lonely "at the top"......but who would be anywhere else.
There is more than one "fool on the hill".
Lennon and Garfunkle. Now thats got a ring to it ;-)
BOfL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
15 Sep 2007 08:21:41 AM |
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On 15 Sep, 12:50, Day Brown <daybr...@hughes.net> wrote:
Complicating the biochemistry of emotions are the reports from bog
body stomachs and bone middens that show Native Europeans evolved
eating over 100 wild plants and animals besides the familiar crops
like grain or livestock.
And that provided a wide variety of trace minerals and micro-nutrients
that were absorbed by the plants that the developing minds of children
expect to be there. When they are not, the limbic system is likely to
accept any molecule that looks close enough. Like organo-phosphates,
which are dumped on agribusiness veggies to control bugs. It only
takes homeopathic levels of the wrong chemical to have a powerful
adverse effect depending on your development and genetic endowment, or
lack thereof.
Agribusiness does not farm, it mines soil. It adds Nitrogen,
Phophorus, & Potash. [that's a period] This maximizes tonnage, but
minimizes real nutrition. The dietary deficit and contamination, plus
indoor and outdoor chemical exposure, messes with the biochemistry of
the mind. Which is how Bush got elected.
Actually, its not a new phenomena; the power elites have always gone
into monoculture to feed the slave classes as cheaply as possible.
This is why the ancient sages all agree that the best life has to
offer is in a rural community tending a garden. And why they all agree
that the pagans, who still ate their traditional diet, were honest,
hard working, & had common sense.
Some are lucky, turn out rational despite being raised on sugar
cereals, junk food, & soda. But we see how the masses are. Sometimes
its, as mentioned, PMS, but also allergies, asthma, and a host of the
more obvious physical conditions. But we also now know that the
biochemistry of the body affects that of the mind, and vice versus.
For a lot of people, the words of the wise dont make it to the
prefrontal lobes. Not even poetry and art makes it. Those who speak do
not know, and those who know do not speak. They know what a waste of
time it is. "All lies in jest til a man hears what he wants to hear
and disregards the rest."
I have very few friends cause there are just not that many sentient
beings around.
Sugar + sentient person = less sentient.
Too mathematical.
I agree with all the sentiments.
But there are many sentients out there. % low, but of 6 billion,
many. Something else at work.
There is a hole.
The hole is guarded by an idea. The idea barks: it is your ideas that
keep you alone. It is almost a cross this hole.
The idea is lying.
You can get out of the hole, even with the world as it is.
In fact you must.
.
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| User: "TruthSlave" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 03:57:10 AM |
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Suzana wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level. But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level. I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Suzana
What precisely do you mean by emotions? I am talking now on
the biology of emotions, as oppose to the labels we've created
to recognize those varying biological states.
I see emotions as the labels we give to key hormonal states,
on this level you are right, emotions are essential to our being.
The person who is calm might not be recognized as emotional
since our use of the word 'emotion' seems to imply the extremes
of one kind or another. Then there are all the other hormonal
states which defy the language or our perception. Yes, we are
emotional, or hormonal, whether we recognize it or not.
As for the decision making aspect of emotions. Certain hormones
play their part on the chemistry of the brain, changing what we
appreciate, the amounts of information we consider necessary,
changing the way our biology is regulated, going on to affect
mind, memory and cognition, as well as body, major organs and
their regulation.
The oldest part of our being, is hormonal and thus emotional.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 09:38:14 AM |
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On 14 Sep, 10:57, TruthSlave <T...@home.com> wrote:
Suzana wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level. But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level. I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Suzana
What precisely do you mean by emotions? I am talking now on
the biology of emotions, as oppose to the labels we've created
to recognize those varying biological states.
I see emotions as the labels we give to key hormonal states,
on this level you are right, emotions are essential to our being.
The person who is calm might not be recognized as emotional
since our use of the word 'emotion' seems to imply the extremes
of one kind or another. Then there are all the other hormonal
states which defy the language or our perception. Yes, we are
emotional, or hormonal, whether we recognize it or not.
As for the decision making aspect of emotions. Certain hormones
play their part on the chemistry of the brain, changing what we
appreciate, the amounts of information we consider necessary,
changing the way our biology is regulated, going on to affect
mind, memory and cognition, as well as body, major organs and
their regulation.
The oldest part of our being, is hormonal and thus emotional.- D=F6lj cit=
erad text -
- Visa citerad text -
Emotions are really hormones. And hormones are really little pachinko
balls that collect and score in certain ways.
How strange to take the map so much more seriously than the palpable
emotion itself.
But you seem to respect emotions and that is good. They are the sea
those shiny little thoughts light up on like reflections of stars.
I feel therefore I am.
.
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| User: "Suzana" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 01:03:20 PM |
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|
On Sep 14, 10:38 am, wrote:
On 14 Sep, 10:57, TruthSlave <T...@home.com> wrote:
Suzana wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level. But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level. I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Suzana
What precisely do you mean by emotions? I am talking now on
the biology of emotions, as oppose to the labels we've created
to recognize those varying biological states.
I see emotions as the labels we give to key hormonal states,
on this level you are right, emotions are essential to our being.
The person who is calm might not be recognized as emotional
since our use of the word 'emotion' seems to imply the extremes
of one kind or another. Then there are all the other hormonal
states which defy the language or our perception. Yes, we are
emotional, or hormonal, whether we recognize it or not.
As for the decision making aspect of emotions. Certain hormones
play their part on the chemistry of the brain, changing what we
appreciate, the amounts of information we consider necessary,
changing the way our biology is regulated, going on to affect
mind, memory and cognition, as well as body, major organs and
their regulation.
The oldest part of our being, is hormonal and thus emotional.- D=F6lj c=
iterad text -
- Visa citerad text -
Emotions are really hormones. And hormones are really little pachinko
balls that collect and score in certain ways.
How strange to take the map so much more seriously than the palpable
emotion itself.
But you seem to respect emotions and that is good. They are the sea
those shiny little thoughts light up on like reflections of stars.
I feel therefore I am.-
S: Precisely.
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| User: "Suzana" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
14 Sep 2007 12:39:09 PM |
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On Sep 14, 4:57 am, TruthSlave <T...@home.com> wrote:
Suzana wrote:
What if emotions are actually essential to our being and are rather
assisting our reasoning? It certainly seems that our brain devoid of
any emotion is more flawed even more flawed then having emotions that
at times interfere with our decisions.
In medicine when person has diminished or no range of emotions we
called them flat and think of them as depressed. Some people lack
both, range of emotions and good reasoning and most have great
difficulty functioning. All people whose emotional system is damaged
(one way or the other) exhibit abnormal social behaviours. For
example: lack of remorse is called sociopath or psychopathic
dysfunction. Depressed people lack hope and exhibit suicidal
tendencies.
Fear for example assists us or birds (or any animal) in escaping
danger (in some circumstances too much thinking can be less
adventurous), sexual desire assists in preservation of species ,
remorse or guilt can be a learning tool, hope assists in perseverance
love increases our chances of survival, curiosity leads to
discovery, ....etc
Beauty of evolution is in understanding that species can act smart
without much thinking involved. Animals so far have been capable of
complex behaviours solely on instinctual level. But how did complex
species evolve reasoning level if not trough automatic emotional
level. I am not mentioning this so I can call it primitive but rather
to call to our attention that instinct is and have been essential part
of reasoning. That emotion and reason are inseparable and that only
difference is that reasons achieves what emotions do but achieves it
knowingly.
Suzana
What precisely do you mean by emotions? I am talking now on
the biology of emotions, as oppose to the labels we've created
to recognize those varying biological states.
Are you? I have just purchased a book 'Descartes' error" which is
about biology of emotions.
I see emotions as the labels we give to key hormonal states,
on this level you are right, emotions are essential to our being.
As a woman with regular PMS I can appreciate the influence of hormones
on emotional states :-)
The person who is calm might not be recognized as emotional
since our use of the word 'emotion' seems to imply the extremes
of one kind or another. Then there are all the other hormonal
states which defy the language or our perception. Yes, we are
emotional, or hormonal, whether we recognize it or not.
Agreed. I really think that those hormonal states not only influence
our reasoning
but are essential component to it. Meaning that both are
interdependent.
As for the decision making aspect of emotions. Certain hormones
play their part on the chemistry of the brain, changing what we
appreciate, the amounts of information we consider necessary,
changing the way our biology is regulated, going on to affect
mind, memory and cognition, as well as body, major organs and
their regulation.
The oldest part of our being, is hormonal and thus emotional.
I think so.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
15 Sep 2007 05:04:07 AM |
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On 14 Sep, 19:39, Suzana <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote:
As a woman with regular PMS I can appreciate the influence of hormones
on emotional states :-)
You have strong emotions. Beautiful.
With women, anything left unsaid or held back and the moon pulls it
out.
Men just keel over young. Stiff upper lips go right to the arteries.
Blessing and curse. At least you have to deal.
That's why men have always hated women in their moon. Everything the
men want to avoid.
If you have a man, not that you should, try one month saying
everything in the exact tone it wishes to be said directly to him,
loud as needed - only if safe.
Next moon, less 'hormones'.
Which does not mean you are one who hold back more because there is
pain or other __________
No. Just maybe you are very passionate or feel deeply or both
and so you must hold back more to pass.
But beautiful, it is, to be so full.
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| User: "Suzana" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
16 Sep 2007 02:31:38 PM |
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On Sep 15, 6:04 am, wrote:
On 14 Sep, 19:39, Suzana <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote:
As a woman with regular PMS I can appreciate the influence of hormones
on emotional states :-)
You have strong emotions. Beautiful.
S; Depends on whose around. :-)
With women, anything left unsaid or held back and the moon pulls it
out.
Men just keel over young. Stiff upper lips go right to the arteries.
Blessing and curse. At least you have to deal.
That's why men have always hated women in their moon. Everything the
men want to avoid.
S; I think they want to avoid it because they don't know what to do.
Most man I know have what I call 'fix-it' frame of mind. Which means
identify problem then fix it. Not easy to identify what's problem when
woman is in the moon.
If you have a man, not that you should, try one month saying
everything in the exact tone it wishes to be said directly to him,
loud as needed - only if safe.
Next moon, less 'hormones'.
Which does not mean you are one who hold back more because there is
pain or other __________
No. Just maybe you are very passionate or feel deeply or both
and so you must hold back more to pass.
But beautiful, it is, to be so full.
S; :-) Beauty is in the eye of beholder or the one in closest
proximity. :-)
Problem with hormonal influence in this particular case is not so much
strength of emotions as mood swings. As generally woman are in state
of hormonal change and imbalance.
Brian is right awareness is the best tool to deal with it. Once you
are aware what is going on you can disassociate from it long enough to
understand not to act on whatever mood hormones bring. It's not always
easy but it worked for me in the past.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: On mind and body |
17 Sep 2007 10:16:33 AM |
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"Suzana" <suznet@hwcn.org> wrote in message
news:1189971098.086166.204660@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 15, 6:04 am, wrote:
On 14 Sep, 19:39, Suzana <suz...@hwcn.org> wrote:
As a woman with regular PMS I can appreciate the influence of hormones
on emotional states :-)
You have strong emotions. Beautiful.
S; Depends on whose around. :-)
With women, anything left unsaid or held back and the moon pulls it
out.
Men just keel over young. Stiff upper lips go right to the arteries.
Blessing and curse. At least you have to deal.
That's why men have always hated women in their moon. Everything the
men want to avoid.
S; I think they want to avoid it because they don't know what to do.
Most man I know have what I call 'fix-it' frame of mind. Which means
identify problem then fix it. Not easy to identify what's problem when
woman is in the moon.
If you have a man, not that you should, try one month saying
everything in the exact tone it wishes to be said directly to him,
loud as needed - only if safe.
Next moon, less 'hormones'.
Which does not mean you are one who hold back more because there is
pain or other __________
No. Just maybe you are very passionate or feel deeply or both
and so you must hold back more to pass.
But beautiful, it is, to be so full.
S; :-) Beauty is in the eye of beholder or the one in closest
proximity. :-)
Problem with hormonal influence in this particular case is not so much
strength of emotions as mood swings. As generally woman are in state
of hormonal change and imbalance.
Brian is right awareness is the best tool to deal with it. Once you
are aware what is going on you can disassociate from it long enough to
understand not to act on whatever mood hormones bring. It's not always
easy but it worked for me in the past.
That which you master, has fulfilled a need in your life.
You have just given a good example of 'transcendence" in a most practical
way.
BOfL
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