| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Sir Frederick" |
| Date: |
13 Jan 2006 05:43:05 AM |
| Object: |
On Panpsychism |
This subject annoys me, but then I cannot
understand the experience of qualia, that also
annoys me. Too much annoyance.
Is "mind", with that experience, another manifest,
or is that experience a produced deceit?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_3.html
RUDY RUCKER
Mathematician, Computer Scientist; CyberPunk Pioneer; Novelist; Author, Lifebox, the Seashell, and the Soul
l
Mind is a universally distributed quality
Panpsychism. Each object has a mind. Stars, hills, chairs, rocks, scraps of paper, flakes of skin, molecules — each of them
possesses the same inner glow as a human, each of them has singular inner experiences and sensations.
I'm quite comfortable with the notion that everything is a computation. But what to do about my sense that there's something
numinous about my inner experience? Panpsychism represents a non-anthropocentric way out: mind is a universally distributed quality.
Yes, the workings of a human brain are a deterministic computation that could be emulated by any universal computer. And, yes, I
sense more to my mental phenomena than the rule-bound exfoliation of reactions to inputs: this residue is the inner light, the raw
sensation of existence. But, no, that inner glow is not the exclusive birthright of humans, nor is it solely limited to biological
organisms.
Note that panpsychism needn't say that universe is just one mind. We can also say that each object has an individual mind. One way
to visualize the distinction between the many minds and the one mind is to think of the world as a stained glass window with light
shining through each pane. The world's physical structures break the undivided cosmic mind into a myriad of small minds, one in each
object.
The minds of panpsychism can exist at various levels. As well as having its own individuality, a person's mind would also be, for
instance, a hive mind based upon the minds of the body's cells and the minds of the body's elementary particles.
Do the panpsychic minds have any physical correlates? On the one hand, it could be that the mind is some substance that accumulates
near ordinary matter — dark matter or dark energy are good candidates. On the other hand, mind might simply be matter viewed in a
special fashion: matter experienced from the inside. Let me mention three specific physical correlates that have been proposed for
the mind.
Some have argued that the experience of mind results when a superposed quantum state collapses into a pure state. It's an alluring
metaphor, but as a universal automatist, I'm of the opinion that quantum mechanics is a stop-gap theory, destined to give way to a
fully deterministic theory based upon some digital precursor of spacetime.
David Skrbina, author of the clear and comprehensive book Panpsychism in the West, suggests that we might think of a physical system
as determining a moving point in a multi-dimensional phase space that has an axis for each of the system's measurable properties. He
feels this dynamic point represents the sense of unity characteristic of a mind.
As a variation on this theme, let me point out that, from the universal automatist standpoint, every physical system can be thought
of as embodying a computation. And the majority of non-simple systems embody universal computations, capable of emulating any other
system at all. It could be that having a mind is in some sense equivalent to being capable of universal computation.
A side-remark. Even such very simple systems as a single electron may in fact be capable of universal computation, if supplied with
a steady stream of structured input. Think of an electron in an oscillating field; and by analogy think of a person listening to
music or reading an essay.
Might panpsychism be a distinction without a difference? Suppose we identify the numinous mind with quantum collapse, with chaotic
dynamics, or with universal computation. What is added by claiming that these aspects of reality are like minds?
I think empathy can supply an experiential confirmation of panpsychism's reality. Just as I'm sure that I myself have a mind, I can
come to believe the same of another human with whom I'm in contact — whether face to face or via their creative work. And with a bit
of effort, I can identify with objects as well; I can see the objects in the room around me as glowing with inner light. This is a
pleasant sensation; one feels less alone.
Could there ever be a critical experiment to test if panpsychism is really true? Suppose that telepathy were to become possible,
perhaps by entangling a person's mental states with another system's states. And then suppose that instead of telepathically
contacting another person, I were to contact a rock. At this point panpsychism would be proved.
I still haven't said anything about why panpsychism is a dangerous idea. Panpsychism, like other forms of higher consciousness, is
dangerous to business as usual. If my old car has the same kind of mind as a new one, I'm less impelled to help the economy by
buying a new vehicle. If the rocks and plants on my property have minds, I feel more respect for them in their natural state. If I
feel myself among friends in the universe, I'm less likely to overwork myself to earn more cash. If my body will have a mind even
after I'm dead, then death matters less to me, and it's harder for the government to cow me into submission.
.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
|
| Title: Re: On Panpsychism |
13 Jan 2006 12:08:29 PM |
|
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"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:1u3fs11bjpb7gvvogu9h33mf3s9tu1mvo5@4ax.com...
This subject annoys me, but then I cannot
understand the experience of qualia, that also
annoys me. Too much annoyance.
Is "mind", with that experience, another manifest,
or is that experience a produced deceit?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_3.html
RUDY RUCKER
Mathematician, Computer Scientist; CyberPunk Pioneer; Novelist; Author,
Lifebox, the Seashell, and the Soul
l
Mind is a universally distributed quality
It seems that qualities are a universaly distributed property of 2 or more
objects or relationships compared over time.
This would allow a downgrade of the assumption that Stars, hills, chairs,
rocks, scraps of paper, flakes of skin, molecules have minds to the idea
that they have qualities.
We need to describe a range of these qualities and their relationship to
properties of objects and relationships compared over time.
If different animals appear to have different degrees of subjective
qualities then these qualities can differ. If the same musical instruments
can produce different qualities then these qualities wouldn't seem to be
universally distributed but stratificationally distributed.
Thinking this off the top of my head, help me revise it.
Panpsychism. Each object has a mind. Stars, hills, chairs, rocks, scraps
of paper, flakes of skin, molecules - each of them
possesses the same inner glow as a human, each of them has singular inner
experiences and sensations.
I'm quite comfortable with the notion that everything is a computation.
But what to do about my sense that there's something
numinous about my inner experience? Panpsychism represents a
non-anthropocentric way out: mind is a universally distributed quality.
Yes, the workings of a human brain are a deterministic computation that
could be emulated by any universal computer. And, yes, I
sense more to my mental phenomena than the rule-bound exfoliation of
reactions to inputs: this residue is the inner light, the raw
sensation of existence. But, no, that inner glow is not the exclusive
birthright of humans, nor is it solely limited to biological
organisms.
Note that panpsychism needn't say that universe is just one mind. We can
also say that each object has an individual mind. One way
to visualize the distinction between the many minds and the one mind is to
think of the world as a stained glass window with light
shining through each pane. The world's physical structures break the
undivided cosmic mind into a myriad of small minds, one in each
object.
The minds of panpsychism can exist at various levels. As well as having
its own individuality, a person's mind would also be, for
instance, a hive mind based upon the minds of the body's cells and the
minds of the body's elementary particles.
Do the panpsychic minds have any physical correlates? On the one hand, it
could be that the mind is some substance that accumulates
near ordinary matter - dark matter or dark energy are good candidates. On
the other hand, mind might simply be matter viewed in a
special fashion: matter experienced from the inside. Let me mention three
specific physical correlates that have been proposed for
the mind.
Some have argued that the experience of mind results when a superposed
quantum state collapses into a pure state. It's an alluring
metaphor, but as a universal automatist, I'm of the opinion that quantum
mechanics is a stop-gap theory, destined to give way to a
fully deterministic theory based upon some digital precursor of spacetime.
David Skrbina, author of the clear and comprehensive book Panpsychism in
the West, suggests that we might think of a physical system
as determining a moving point in a multi-dimensional phase space that has
an axis for each of the system's measurable properties. He
feels this dynamic point represents the sense of unity characteristic of a
mind.
As a variation on this theme, let me point out that, from the universal
automatist standpoint, every physical system can be thought
of as embodying a computation. And the majority of non-simple systems
embody universal computations, capable of emulating any other
system at all. It could be that having a mind is in some sense equivalent
to being capable of universal computation.
A side-remark. Even such very simple systems as a single electron may in
fact be capable of universal computation, if supplied with
a steady stream of structured input. Think of an electron in an
oscillating field; and by analogy think of a person listening to
music or reading an essay.
Might panpsychism be a distinction without a difference? Suppose we
identify the numinous mind with quantum collapse, with chaotic
dynamics, or with universal computation. What is added by claiming that
these aspects of reality are like minds?
I think empathy can supply an experiential confirmation of panpsychism's
reality. Just as I'm sure that I myself have a mind, I can
come to believe the same of another human with whom I'm in contact -
whether face to face or via their creative work. And with a bit
of effort, I can identify with objects as well; I can see the objects in
the room around me as glowing with inner light. This is a
pleasant sensation; one feels less alone.
Could there ever be a critical experiment to test if panpsychism is really
true? Suppose that telepathy were to become possible,
perhaps by entangling a person's mental states with another system's
states. And then suppose that instead of telepathically
contacting another person, I were to contact a rock. At this point
panpsychism would be proved.
I still haven't said anything about why panpsychism is a dangerous idea.
Panpsychism, like other forms of higher consciousness, is
dangerous to business as usual. If my old car has the same kind of mind as
a new one, I'm less impelled to help the economy by
buying a new vehicle. If the rocks and plants on my property have minds, I
feel more respect for them in their natural state. If I
feel myself among friends in the universe, I'm less likely to overwork
myself to earn more cash. If my body will have a mind even
after I'm dead, then death matters less to me, and it's harder for the
government to cow me into submission.
.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
|
| Title: Re: On Panpsychism |
13 Jan 2006 08:05:38 AM |
|
|
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:1u3fs11bjpb7gvvogu9h33mf3s9tu1mvo5@4ax.com...
This subject annoys me, but then I cannot
understand the experience of qualia, that also
annoys me. Too much annoyance.
Is "mind", with that experience, another manifest,
or is that experience a produced deceit?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_3.html
RUDY RUCKER
Mathematician, Computer Scientist; CyberPunk Pioneer; Novelist; Author,
Lifebox, the Seashell, and the Soul
l
Mind is a universally distributed quality
Panpsychism. Each object has a mind. Stars, hills, chairs, rocks, scraps
of paper, flakes of skin, molecules - each of them
possesses the same inner glow as a human, each of them has singular inner
experiences and sensations.
I'm quite comfortable with the notion that everything is a computation.
But what to do about my sense that there's something
numinous about my inner experience? Panpsychism represents a
non-anthropocentric way out: mind is a universally distributed quality.
Yes, the workings of a human brain are a deterministic computation that
could be emulated by any universal computer. And, yes, I
sense more to my mental phenomena than the rule-bound exfoliation of
reactions to inputs: this residue is the inner light, the raw
sensation of existence. But, no, that inner glow is not the exclusive
birthright of humans, nor is it solely limited to biological
organisms.
Note that panpsychism needn't say that universe is just one mind. We can
also say that each object has an individual mind. One way
to visualize the distinction between the many minds and the one mind is to
think of the world as a stained glass window with light
shining through each pane. The world's physical structures break the
undivided cosmic mind into a myriad of small minds, one in each
object.
The minds of panpsychism can exist at various levels. As well as having
its own individuality, a person's mind would also be, for
instance, a hive mind based upon the minds of the body's cells and the
minds of the body's elementary particles.
Do the panpsychic minds have any physical correlates? On the one hand, it
could be that the mind is some substance that accumulates
near ordinary matter - dark matter or dark energy are good candidates. On
the other hand, mind might simply be matter viewed in a
special fashion: matter experienced from the inside. Let me mention three
specific physical correlates that have been proposed for
the mind.
Some have argued that the experience of mind results when a superposed
quantum state collapses into a pure state. It's an alluring
metaphor, but as a universal automatist, I'm of the opinion that quantum
mechanics is a stop-gap theory, destined to give way to a
fully deterministic theory based upon some digital precursor of spacetime.
David Skrbina, author of the clear and comprehensive book Panpsychism in
the West, suggests that we might think of a physical system
as determining a moving point in a multi-dimensional phase space that has
an axis for each of the system's measurable properties. He
feels this dynamic point represents the sense of unity characteristic of a
mind.
As a variation on this theme, let me point out that, from the universal
automatist standpoint, every physical system can be thought
of as embodying a computation. And the majority of non-simple systems
embody universal computations, capable of emulating any other
system at all. It could be that having a mind is in some sense equivalent
to being capable of universal computation.
A side-remark. Even such very simple systems as a single electron may in
fact be capable of universal computation, if supplied with
a steady stream of structured input. Think of an electron in an
oscillating field; and by analogy think of a person listening to
music or reading an essay.
Might panpsychism be a distinction without a difference? Suppose we
identify the numinous mind with quantum collapse, with chaotic
dynamics, or with universal computation. What is added by claiming that
these aspects of reality are like minds?
I think empathy can supply an experiential confirmation of panpsychism's
reality. Just as I'm sure that I myself have a mind, I can
come to believe the same of another human with whom I'm in contact -
whether face to face or via their creative work. And with a bit
of effort, I can identify with objects as well; I can see the objects in
the room around me as glowing with inner light. This is a
pleasant sensation; one feels less alone.
Could there ever be a critical experiment to test if panpsychism is really
true? Suppose that telepathy were to become possible,
perhaps by entangling a person's mental states with another system's
states. And then suppose that instead of telepathically
contacting another person, I were to contact a rock. At this point
panpsychism would be proved.
I still haven't said anything about why panpsychism is a dangerous idea.
Panpsychism, like other forms of higher consciousness, is
dangerous to business as usual. If my old car has the same kind of mind as
a new one, I'm less impelled to help the economy by
buying a new vehicle. If the rocks and plants on my property have minds, I
feel more respect for them in their natural state. If I
feel myself among friends in the universe, I'm less likely to overwork
myself to earn more cash. If my body will have a mind even
after I'm dead, then death matters less to me, and it's harder for the
government to cow me into submission.
Which is why only a "trickle" of individualls achieve self awareness at any
one period.
Constantine "stuck off" (in 600 ad) any Biblical reference to reincarnation
for the same reason as the last point.
BOfL
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On Panpsychism |
13 Jan 2006 09:56:15 AM |
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Brian Fletcher wrote:
Which is why only a "trickle" of individualls achieve self awareness at any
one period.
Constantine "stuck off" (in 600 ad) any Biblical reference to reincarnation
for the same reason as the last point.
And the amnesics think that they are the rational ones. They think
others add something, they add a belief when they remember past lives -
as one example.
In fact it is their suppresion of memories that is the addition. And
suppressing emotion is very important since emotions are generally the
strongest links to how they lived and especially how they died.
.
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| User: "Nic" |
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| Title: Re: On Panpsychism |
13 Jan 2006 07:05:09 AM |
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Sir Frederick wrote:
This subject annoys me, but then I cannot
understand the experience of qualia, that also
annoys me. Too much annoyance.
Is "mind", with that experience, another manifest,
or is that experience a produced deceit?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_3.html
RUDY RUCKER
Mathematician, Computer Scientist; CyberPunk Pioneer; Novelist; Author, Lifebox, the Seashell, and the Soul
l
Mind is a universally distributed quality
Panpsychism. Each object has a mind. Stars, hills, chairs, rocks, scraps of paper, flakes of skin, molecules - each of them
possesses the same inner glow as a human, each of them has singular inner experiences and sensations.
I'm quite comfortable with the notion that everything is a computation. But what to do about my sense that there's something
numinous about my inner experience? Panpsychism represents a non-anthropocentric way out: mind is a universally distributed quality.
Yes, the workings of a human brain are a deterministic computation that could be emulated by any universal computer. And, yes, I
sense more to my mental phenomena than the rule-bound exfoliation of reactions to inputs: this residue is the inner light, the raw
sensation of existence. But, no, that inner glow is not the exclusive birthright of humans, nor is it solely limited to biological
organisms.
Note that panpsychism needn't say that universe is just one mind. We can also say that each object has an individual mind. One way
to visualize the distinction between the many minds and the one mind is to think of the world as a stained glass window with light
shining through each pane. The world's physical structures break the undivided cosmic mind into a myriad of small minds, one in each
object.
The minds of panpsychism can exist at various levels. As well as having its own individuality, a person's mind would also be, for
instance, a hive mind based upon the minds of the body's cells and the minds of the body's elementary particles.
Do the panpsychic minds have any physical correlates? On the one hand, it could be that the mind is some substance that accumulates
near ordinary matter - dark matter or dark energy are good candidates. On the other hand, mind might simply be matter viewed in a
special fashion: matter experienced from the inside. Let me mention three specific physical correlates that have been proposed for
the mind.
Some have argued that the experience of mind results when a superposed quantum state collapses into a pure state. It's an alluring
metaphor, but as a universal automatist, I'm of the opinion that quantum mechanics is a stop-gap theory, destined to give way to a
fully deterministic theory based upon some digital precursor of spacetime.
David Skrbina, author of the clear and comprehensive book Panpsychism in the West, suggests that we might think of a physical system
as determining a moving point in a multi-dimensional phase space that has an axis for each of the system's measurable properties. He
feels this dynamic point represents the sense of unity characteristic of a mind.
As a variation on this theme, let me point out that, from the universal automatist standpoint, every physical system can be thought
of as embodying a computation. And the majority of non-simple systems embody universal computations, capable of emulating any other
system at all. It could be that having a mind is in some sense equivalent to being capable of universal computation.
A side-remark. Even such very simple systems as a single electron may in fact be capable of universal computation, if supplied with
a steady stream of structured input. Think of an electron in an oscillating field; and by analogy think of a person listening to
music or reading an essay.
Might panpsychism be a distinction without a difference? Suppose we identify the numinous mind with quantum collapse, with chaotic
dynamics, or with universal computation. What is added by claiming that these aspects of reality are like minds?
I think empathy can supply an experiential confirmation of panpsychism's reality. Just as I'm sure that I myself have a mind, I can
come to believe the same of another human with whom I'm in contact - whether face to face or via their creative work. And with a bit
of effort, I can identify with objects as well; I can see the objects in the room around me as glowing with inner light. This is a
pleasant sensation; one feels less alone.
Could there ever be a critical experiment to test if panpsychism is really true? Suppose that telepathy were to become possible,
perhaps by entangling a person's mental states with another system's states. And then suppose that instead of telepathically
contacting another person, I were to contact a rock. At this point panpsychism would be proved.
I still haven't said anything about why panpsychism is a dangerous idea. Panpsychism, like other forms of higher consciousness, is
dangerous to business as usual. If my old car has the same kind of mind as a new one, I'm less impelled to help the economy by
buying a new vehicle. If the rocks and plants on my property have minds, I feel more respect for them in their natural state. If I
feel myself among friends in the universe, I'm less likely to overwork myself to earn more cash. If my body will have a mind even
after I'm dead, then death matters less to me, and it's harder for the government to cow me into submission.
Sir Frederick wrote:-
This subject annoys me, but then I cannot
understand the experience of qualia, that also
annoys me. Too much annoyance.
Is "mind", with that experience, another manifest,
or is that experience a produced deceit?
I often interpret 'qualia' as meaning 'those
circumstances I find myself in when I hav'nt the
vocabulary to express how I feel about something'
- its a start. If you can't express it, it doesn't
mean it doesn't exist for you.
Pantheism I'm happy about - the universe, all things
encompassed known and unknown to us are of 'God',
but panpsychism in this article suggest at one point
that individual minds exist within each 'item' within
the Universe.
You can argue till the cows come home about finding
proof for that one, 'it's life Jim but not as we
know it' kinda thing?. Sure, my rockery deliberately
constructed itself one evening during a memorable &
pretty sunset, when asked why they had decided to do
so, the rocks formed a particulary strong cohesive
union, refused to answer my queries (tho I questioned
each in their turn)- thus consolidating their mutual
support by their right to remain silent.
If every item is both a noun (an object,to be,to have
a measurment)and a verb (has the propensity,to do,to
act) then each thing has a nature about it...but how
you get from the sense that things have 'being' about
them to having a 'mind' is quite puzzle - I'd say.
N.
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| User: "Thisbe" |
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| Title: Re: On Panpsychism |
13 Jan 2006 07:22:28 PM |
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Sir Frederick wrote:
http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_3.html
RUDY RUCKER
Mathematician, Computer Scientist; CyberPunk Pioneer; Novelist; Author, Lifebox, the Seashell, and the Soul
l
Mind is a universally distributed quality
Panpsychism. Each object has a mind. Stars, hills, chairs, rocks, scraps of paper, flakes of skin, molecules --each of them
possesses the same inner glow as a human, each of them has singular inner experiences and sensations.
A mind doesn't need all the baggage once attributed to it before the
discovery that the brain was responsible for such. The mind itself
doesn't need to think, desire, believe, feel, memorize, or be a self.
It only needs to perceive thoughts, desires, beliefs, feelings,
memories, identity, secondary qualities, logic, etc. A mind is simply
perception, and without the order imposed by a brain --as would be the
case in panpsychism at large-- the content of perception would likely
be random qualia (non-human experiential gibberish).
Have a nice day, Thisbe :)
.
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