| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"murana" |
| Date: |
13 May 2005 04:09:51 PM |
| Object: |
On-Screen vs Real-Life |
sorry for terminology crappiness in this rambling :P
11.5.5
Sensation(Image)... Object...
----------------------
Only self is known/proven but we seek a solid reality "out there".
Objective verification of personal experience is impossible.
The "I'll believe it when I see it!" faith still trust the objective
reality of their personal experience as if it were a direct impression
of reality, remembered by a sane mind. We can only study the "Show".
(mindfulness leads to this very personal POV? "subjective permanence")
----------------------
When aware of the observing self the objective substance of experience
turns to vapour?
----------------------
Right quadrants (objective-physical) are experienced in the UL
(upper-left, interior) sensory level. the objects of personal sensory
experience and mental interpretation.
I think some reduce the world to a category of experience, Wilber
allows that and gives the actual world its own dimension entirely
seperate from experiential levels aswell.
There has to be space in our theory for the objective story.
----------------------
12.5.5
Solipsism, Integralism, Materialism: (..?)
Self/just-visuals/character/characters...nothing outside...
Self/just-visuals/etcetc...plus actual reality...other beings...
Physical reality...nothing inside...
----------------------
reductions/explain-aways:
World = category of experience (of self) .. by Immaterialism
Experience = function of brain .. by Materialism
----------------------
fields.
sensory: tactile, visual, auditory, scent, taste.
emotional.
mental.
----------------------
Awareness...Experience...etc. Body-Land. Other people.
----------------------
"Any Reality is an Opinion."
-Timothy Leary.
----------------------
"I don't believe in anything, but I have many suspiscions.
I strongly suspect that a world "external to," or atleast independent
of, my senses exists in some sense."
-Robert Anton Wilson, rawilson.com.
----------------------
Leary keeps a strong awareness on neurology and drug use in its
connection to psychological states and circuit activations.
UR and UL (inner and outer individual)...8 levels. not sure if he
divides the inner/outer heirarchies so clearly.
----------------------
where do the chakras fit in?
external corresponding to internal, like brain levels?
----------------------
they are seen as physical type energy balls located within the body,
and are corresponded to different levels of inner experience from
impulse to intuition.
----------------------
The neuro and chakra conceptions seem to be used as good "resting
points" for scientists and esoteric students to think about the
internal spectrum of experiences/functions/etc.
----------------------
personal condition, interpersonal relations, objective situation.
----------------------
Aurobindos synthesis took a number of internal lines through lower to
superconscious levels into one map and practice. It integrates all
levels and all main yogic paths.
matter-life-mind-soul-spirit | Knowledge/Devotion/Works
Pretty "integral" but not very aware of other quadrants, of material
reality and contextual cultures. Which scientific and socio-cultural
studies have shed light on.
----------------------
RAW's "maybe-logic" cognition is one internal level of one line, but
invites other lines to match it. same with "vision-logic".
I think RAW and KW (Wilson and Wilber) both focus on cognition knowing
it's a first step to correlating development in other lines (morals,
needs, self, etc)..and quadrants.
----------------------
The "Holographic Universe" theory is idealistic, spirit centred, and
opposed to mechanical material reductionism. It offers to smash your
materialistic POV and replace it with a solipstic type dream POV of the
world based on spirit/consciousness.
----------------------
4 quadrants.
interior space-phenomena, external body, external world, other
interiors.
----------------------
13.5.5
the modern person has to match their morals to their cognition, and
their technology must be kept out of earlier stage people/s.
----------------------
status report on:
my interior lines/levels, my body/brain condition, lines/levels of my
cultures, external circumstances.
----------------------
Some of the levels of consciousness (the 8 Circuits) seem to include
access to other realms besides the physical and internal... it's not
just about higher internal development but access to another ("subtle"
I guess) world where other apparently real beings can be encountered,
either disembodied or with same level brain activations in the
gross-realm.
----------------------
mind-sensation... suspected world and body in sensation window...
suspected others experiencing and thinking with supposed bodies
percieved through the senses interpreted by the mind-emotions,
witnessed by the Self.
----------------------
the connection of feelings with either physical tensions or with
energies takes away the "etherealness" of the experience. It's an
experience coming directly from a reality. I tried to do that with
mental experience aswell, as if I were seeing into a mental realm...not
some ghostly empty illusion (Nowhere-Land). But maybe we're never
touched by a reality outside ourselves, maybe it is all ghostly
illusion? The physical world aswell as the mind and mental imagery...
both creations from the soul/self for the soul/self. ("It's all smoke."
-Pothead). but the dream continues so we must make space in our view
for the world as it appears to be and to have been, and the interesting
correlations to subjectives states, etc.
----------------------
too much
father principle = "nazi fascist *****"
mother principle = "they just wallow, they're self-contained, they're
whiney, they want the world to take care of them, they're a momma's
boy, and so on"
----------------------
14.5.5
Hardware for the vision and mind software.
the brain relays sensory information to and allows thought for the
soul..? All the physical information, etc, is transformed through the
pineal gland into sensory-mental experience for the soul?
----------------------
turn off the software and the hardware isn't even seen... it is seen
via an experience display to the soul via developed (or naturally
evolved) hardware.
I think this is the best way to see my object vs image thingie.
----------------------
whatever I see, whoever I meet, I never actually leave my computer
screen. self-presence is coming back to this lucid POV... were were
just lost in the movie, program, etc.
----------------------
the transformation of thingies into images is still very mysterious.
----------------------
computer software understanding vs hardware understanding is similar to
biology/neurology vs psychology? there's this kind of imaginary POV
needed in software and psychology because the experiences don't
literally exist in a space-time, locatable, sense. cyberspace,
virtual-reality. I donno... I think that's the difference between
software-hardware that's annoyed me so long?
----------------------
there is no way to experience material reality except through a
machine's reception and translation into subjective experience. no
direct view.
existence vs experience+self... the mysterious connection...
----------------------
the "4Q" of computing is: hardware-software, internet-cyberspace.
----------------------
the internet is both thought of as a physical network and as a
"cyberspace". like a collective mind and neural network.
----------------------
Learys 8 circuits are neural structures, like computer circuits, and
software upgrade levels (psychological).
actual, internal, and behavioural (internal/software expressive through
h-ware/body...robotics).
----------------------
there isn't much difference in the human hardware of today vs a
thousand years ago, but what we have still seems to allow for much
internal development.
----------------------
brain gives self access to senses, mind, and even soul experiences (of
subtle reality, similar to gross experience but inspired?)?
these mystical visions, etc, are either psychological or they're
windows to other realities much like the sense-doors.
if more than an experience then the subtle objects must be
lumped/organized into the objective reality quadrants, like the sense
objects.
----------------------
that me and W's ex are both interested in computers and psychology,
tending toward psychology, is interesting.
Is there a link between the two interests?
Wilbers main character in Boomeritis is also a computer student of the
i-net generation, curious about A.I., whos interests are heading more
into the interior developmental studies.
I think the difficulty with A.I. exposed in Boomeritis is one I sense,
which is... however complex and apparently free and considerate a
program how do you go from that to injecting consciousness..? How do
you gives the artificialy intelligent visual an awareness and genuinely
directed intelligence? How did nature do it?
----------------------
hardware - electricity - software
body - energies - mind
----------------------
oneday information now stored in our brains (and accessed
psychologically) might be downloadable into computers, translated, and
displayed on a monitor?
----------------------
Psi-Tech ... Brain-Mind-Tech ...
----------------------
If we got some kind of brain chips hackers and govnt and groups could
begin brain-hacking the population.
I think all this is part of the "cyberpunk" future-vision.
----------------------
physical dislocation, lucid sometimes overwhelming mental awareness...
that is the common characteristic in computer/internet geeks and
psychology introverts? And potheads, according to Crowley. world is
on-screen.
.
|
|
| User: "Bret Cahill" |
|
| Title: Getting Crack Heads To Adopt the Golden Rule |
14 May 2005 09:14:17 AM |
|
|
No WONDER I'm having so much difficulty getting crack addicts to adopt
the golden rule!
Bret Cahill
"Psychology -- the queen of sciences."
-- Nietzsche
.
|
|
|
| User: "murana" |
|
| Title: Re: Getting Crack Heads To Adopt the Golden Rule |
14 May 2005 03:28:58 PM |
|
|
Bret Cahill wrote:
No WONDER I'm having so much difficulty getting crack addicts to
adopt
the golden rule!
what golden rule?
i need a Golden Rule to deprogram all the golden rule addictions i keep
developing!
oh yea.."do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" ("thus bound
you are free")..probably a good one for my compulsive nature to cling
to for a while.
Bret Cahill
"Psychology -- the queen of sciences."
-- Nietzsche
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "whyzard" |
|
| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
16 May 2005 12:07:43 AM |
|
|
Wilber's quadrants make for a very tidy phil/psychology yet they also
make it difficult to discuss. UR, UL, etc. is very obscure. In the past
thinkers have always coined new terminology that were descriptive of
the concepts they represented. With Wilber, all we get is a diagram.
And a picture is worth a thousand words.
Have you read Up From Eden? Its the quintessential Lower left quadrant
book.
murana wrote:
sorry for terminology crappiness in this rambling :P
11.5.5
Sensation(Image)... Object...
----------------------
Only self is known/proven but we seek a solid reality "out there".
Objective verification of personal experience is impossible.
The "I'll believe it when I see it!" faith still trust the objective
reality of their personal experience as if it were a direct
impression
of reality, remembered by a sane mind. We can only study the "Show".
(mindfulness leads to this very personal POV? "subjective
permanence")
----------------------
When aware of the observing self the objective substance of
experience
turns to vapour?
----------------------
Right quadrants (objective-physical) are experienced in the UL
(upper-left, interior) sensory level. the objects of personal sensory
experience and mental interpretation.
I think some reduce the world to a category of experience, Wilber
allows that and gives the actual world its own dimension entirely
seperate from experiential levels aswell.
There has to be space in our theory for the objective story.
----------------------
12.5.5
Solipsism, Integralism, Materialism: (..?)
Self/just-visuals/character/characters...nothing outside...
Self/just-visuals/etcetc...plus actual reality...other beings...
Physical reality...nothing inside...
----------------------
reductions/explain-aways:
World = category of experience (of self) .. by Immaterialism
Experience = function of brain .. by Materialism
----------------------
fields.
sensory: tactile, visual, auditory, scent, taste.
emotional.
mental.
----------------------
Awareness...Experience...etc. Body-Land. Other people.
----------------------
"Any Reality is an Opinion."
-Timothy Leary.
----------------------
"I don't believe in anything, but I have many suspiscions.
I strongly suspect that a world "external to," or atleast independent
of, my senses exists in some sense."
-Robert Anton Wilson, rawilson.com.
----------------------
Leary keeps a strong awareness on neurology and drug use in its
connection to psychological states and circuit activations.
UR and UL (inner and outer individual)...8 levels. not sure if he
divides the inner/outer heirarchies so clearly.
----------------------
where do the chakras fit in?
external corresponding to internal, like brain levels?
----------------------
they are seen as physical type energy balls located within the body,
and are corresponded to different levels of inner experience from
impulse to intuition.
----------------------
The neuro and chakra conceptions seem to be used as good "resting
points" for scientists and esoteric students to think about the
internal spectrum of experiences/functions/etc.
----------------------
personal condition, interpersonal relations, objective situation.
----------------------
Aurobindos synthesis took a number of internal lines through lower to
superconscious levels into one map and practice. It integrates all
levels and all main yogic paths.
matter-life-mind-soul-spirit | Knowledge/Devotion/Works
Pretty "integral" but not very aware of other quadrants, of material
reality and contextual cultures. Which scientific and socio-cultural
studies have shed light on.
----------------------
RAW's "maybe-logic" cognition is one internal level of one line, but
invites other lines to match it. same with "vision-logic".
I think RAW and KW (Wilson and Wilber) both focus on cognition
knowing
it's a first step to correlating development in other lines (morals,
needs, self, etc)..and quadrants.
----------------------
The "Holographic Universe" theory is idealistic, spirit centred, and
opposed to mechanical material reductionism. It offers to smash your
materialistic POV and replace it with a solipstic type dream POV of
the
world based on spirit/consciousness.
----------------------
4 quadrants.
interior space-phenomena, external body, external world, other
interiors.
----------------------
13.5.5
the modern person has to match their morals to their cognition, and
their technology must be kept out of earlier stage people/s.
----------------------
status report on:
my interior lines/levels, my body/brain condition, lines/levels of my
cultures, external circumstances.
----------------------
Some of the levels of consciousness (the 8 Circuits) seem to include
access to other realms besides the physical and internal... it's not
just about higher internal development but access to another
("subtle"
I guess) world where other apparently real beings can be encountered,
either disembodied or with same level brain activations in the
gross-realm.
----------------------
mind-sensation... suspected world and body in sensation window...
suspected others experiencing and thinking with supposed bodies
percieved through the senses interpreted by the mind-emotions,
witnessed by the Self.
----------------------
the connection of feelings with either physical tensions or with
energies takes away the "etherealness" of the experience. It's an
experience coming directly from a reality. I tried to do that with
mental experience aswell, as if I were seeing into a mental
realm...not
some ghostly empty illusion (Nowhere-Land). But maybe we're never
touched by a reality outside ourselves, maybe it is all ghostly
illusion? The physical world aswell as the mind and mental imagery...
both creations from the soul/self for the soul/self. ("It's all
smoke."
-Pothead). but the dream continues so we must make space in our view
for the world as it appears to be and to have been, and the
interesting
correlations to subjectives states, etc.
----------------------
too much
father principle = "nazi fascist *****"
mother principle = "they just wallow, they're self-contained, they're
whiney, they want the world to take care of them, they're a momma's
boy, and so on"
----------------------
14.5.5
Hardware for the vision and mind software.
the brain relays sensory information to and allows thought for the
soul..? All the physical information, etc, is transformed through the
pineal gland into sensory-mental experience for the soul?
----------------------
turn off the software and the hardware isn't even seen... it is seen
via an experience display to the soul via developed (or naturally
evolved) hardware.
I think this is the best way to see my object vs image thingie.
----------------------
whatever I see, whoever I meet, I never actually leave my computer
screen. self-presence is coming back to this lucid POV... were were
just lost in the movie, program, etc.
----------------------
the transformation of thingies into images is still very mysterious.
----------------------
computer software understanding vs hardware understanding is similar
to
biology/neurology vs psychology? there's this kind of imaginary POV
needed in software and psychology because the experiences don't
literally exist in a space-time, locatable, sense. cyberspace,
virtual-reality. I donno... I think that's the difference between
software-hardware that's annoyed me so long?
----------------------
there is no way to experience material reality except through a
machine's reception and translation into subjective experience. no
direct view.
existence vs experience+self... the mysterious connection...
----------------------
the "4Q" of computing is: hardware-software, internet-cyberspace.
----------------------
the internet is both thought of as a physical network and as a
"cyberspace". like a collective mind and neural network.
----------------------
Learys 8 circuits are neural structures, like computer circuits, and
software upgrade levels (psychological).
actual, internal, and behavioural (internal/software expressive
through
h-ware/body...robotics).
----------------------
there isn't much difference in the human hardware of today vs a
thousand years ago, but what we have still seems to allow for much
internal development.
----------------------
brain gives self access to senses, mind, and even soul experiences
(of
subtle reality, similar to gross experience but inspired?)?
these mystical visions, etc, are either psychological or they're
windows to other realities much like the sense-doors.
if more than an experience then the subtle objects must be
lumped/organized into the objective reality quadrants, like the sense
objects.
----------------------
that me and W's ex are both interested in computers and psychology,
tending toward psychology, is interesting.
Is there a link between the two interests?
Wilbers main character in Boomeritis is also a computer student of
the
i-net generation, curious about A.I., whos interests are heading more
into the interior developmental studies.
I think the difficulty with A.I. exposed in Boomeritis is one I
sense,
which is... however complex and apparently free and considerate a
program how do you go from that to injecting consciousness..? How do
you gives the artificialy intelligent visual an awareness and
genuinely
directed intelligence? How did nature do it?
----------------------
hardware - electricity - software
body - energies - mind
----------------------
oneday information now stored in our brains (and accessed
psychologically) might be downloadable into computers, translated,
and
displayed on a monitor?
----------------------
Psi-Tech ... Brain-Mind-Tech ...
----------------------
If we got some kind of brain chips hackers and govnt and groups could
begin brain-hacking the population.
I think all this is part of the "cyberpunk" future-vision.
----------------------
physical dislocation, lucid sometimes overwhelming mental
awareness...
that is the common characteristic in computer/internet geeks and
psychology introverts? And potheads, according to Crowley. world is
on-screen.
.
|
|
|
| User: "murana" |
|
| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
16 May 2005 03:42:44 AM |
|
|
whyzard wrote:
Wilber's quadrants make for a very tidy phil/psychology yet they also
make it difficult to discuss. UR, UL, etc. is very obscure. In the
past
thinkers have always coined new terminology that were descriptive of
the concepts they represented. With Wilber, all we get is a diagram.
And a picture is worth a thousand words.
ya UL/UR etc is crappy. but he also has "I" "we" etc domains
associated to them which makes it easier maybe... the best u can do
when being literal is probably inner-individual, outer-individual, etc.
gaining an interest in Leary and Robert anton Wilsons theories lately,
u into that? they include the neuro/psyche levels in the UL/UR
quadrants but i dont think they focus on the others at all..and the
distinction between the brain and psyche realms of the spectrum wasnt
clarified very well...just "8 Circuits 8 Circuits, come get your 8
Circuits"..even reducing the circuits to *nothing but* brain structures
at times...but i haven't read much yet, prolly just picking at stupid
things.
Have you read Up From Eden? Its the quintessential Lower left
quadrant
book.
nope...haven't seen his earlier stuff, probably just SES onward. and
started listening to the Kosmic Consciousness cd course of his again
recently, have u heard it?
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
20 May 2005 08:01:41 PM |
|
|
murana wrote:
Have you read Up From Eden? Its the quintessential Lower left
quadrant
book.
nope...haven't seen his earlier stuff, probably just SES onward. and
started listening to the Kosmic Consciousness cd course of his again
recently, have u heard it?
Haven't heard those yet. Although i have sampled his voice from the
matrix commentaries on the ultimate matrix dvd collection. That guy is
freakin wise
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
In up from eden he gives hints on how chakras might line up with
collective/cultural. Really though, your question is forcing me to do a
lot of visualization. I eagerly await the rest of the SES series for
Wilber to do the work. I'll try to return to this post to give you my
contemplated answer (i'm still recovering from a flu)
.
|
|
|
| User: "m-urana" |
|
| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
29 May 2005 01:25:02 AM |
|
|
wrote:
murana wrote:
Have you read Up From Eden? Its the quintessential Lower left
quadrant
book.
nope...haven't seen his earlier stuff, probably just SES onward. and
started listening to the Kosmic Consciousness cd course of his again
recently, have u heard it?
Haven't heard those yet. Although i have sampled his voice from the
matrix commentaries on the ultimate matrix dvd collection. That guy is
freakin wise
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
In up from eden he gives hints on how chakras might line up with
collective/cultural. Really though, your question is forcing me to do a
lot of visualization. I eagerly await the rest of the SES series for
Wilber to do the work. I'll try to return to this post to give you my
contemplated answer (i'm still recovering from a flu)
all the confusions seem to be clarified at:
http://wilber.shambhala.com/index.cfm/
in
"Excerpt G: Toward A Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies"
especially the section of the excerpt under figure 4.
the confusion i had was between the metaphysical substance model of
each level of reality...physical world, mental body, soul body,
etc...vs the physical reality/brain coevolving alongside the interior
layers...
what i think happens is not the higher "bodies" leaving footprints in
the lower physical body/brain as we develop..but the higher "realms" of
experience are better seen as totally personal-subjective, including
sensory, with physical and energetic correlates in the actual
reality-realm. though..the inner-outer distinction in the higher
(usually lumped in the interior) soul levels is pretty blurred to me :p
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
01 Jun 2005 01:23:00 AM |
|
|
m-urana wrote:
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
In up from eden he gives hints on how chakras might line up with
collective/cultural. Really though, your question is forcing me to do a
lot of visualization. I eagerly await the rest of the SES series for
Wilber to do the work. I'll try to return to this post to give you my
contemplated answer (i'm still recovering from a flu)
all the confusions seem to be clarified at:
http://wilber.shambhala.com/index.cfm/
in
"Excerpt G: Toward A Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies"
especially the section of the excerpt under figure 4.
the confusion i had was between the metaphysical substance model of
each level of reality...physical world, mental body, soul body,
etc...vs the physical reality/brain coevolving alongside the interior
layers...
what i think happens is not the higher "bodies" leaving footprints in
the lower physical body/brain as we develop..but the higher "realms" of
experience are better seen as totally personal-subjective, including
sensory, with physical and energetic correlates in the actual
reality-realm. though..the inner-outer distinction in the higher
(usually lumped in the interior) soul levels is pretty blurred to me :p
In Sex, eco, spirit and in integral psychology he simplifies the
quadrants and hints at how one might fit the quadrants into one single
line/stream. I think it has to do with your ability to envision all the
quadrants into one stream. I believe this is what wilber calls
vision-logic...you must find the logos of the matter---then put it in a
vision. Really it should be called intuitive apperception of concepts.
Wilber reads Kant so i don't think this suggestion is overly speculative
.
|
|
|
| User: "murana" |
|
| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
05 Jun 2005 06:51:06 AM |
|
|
wrote:
m-urana wrote:
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
In up from eden he gives hints on how chakras might line up with
collective/cultural. Really though, your question is forcing me to do a
lot of visualization. I eagerly await the rest of the SES series for
Wilber to do the work. I'll try to return to this post to give you my
contemplated answer (i'm still recovering from a flu)
all the confusions seem to be clarified at:
http://wilber.shambhala.com/index.cfm/
in
"Excerpt G: Toward A Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies"
especially the section of the excerpt under figure 4.
the confusion i had was between the metaphysical substance model of
each level of reality...physical world, mental body, soul body,
etc...vs the physical reality/brain coevolving alongside the interior
layers...
what i think happens is not the higher "bodies" leaving footprints in
the lower physical body/brain as we develop..but the higher "realms" of
experience are better seen as totally personal-subjective, including
sensory, with physical and energetic correlates in the actual
reality-realm. though..the inner-outer distinction in the higher
(usually lumped in the interior) soul levels is pretty blurred to me :p
In Sex, eco, spirit and in integral psychology he simplifies the
quadrants and hints at how one might fit the quadrants into one single
line/stream. I think it has to do with your ability to envision all the
quadrants into one stream. I believe this is what wilber calls
vision-logic...you must find the logos of the matter---then put it in a
vision. Really it should be called intuitive apperception of concepts.
Wilber reads Kant so i don't think this suggestion is overly speculative
around 5 days ago i was thinking of the coevolution of each quadrant
(and each line in each quadrant) and a new kind of vision began opening
to me of it all as one growing organism..i knew it was profound..but
only a glimpse as usual for me.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
07 Jun 2005 01:56:40 PM |
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murana wrote:
whyzard@mail.com wrote:
m-urana wrote:
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
In up from eden he gives hints on how chakras might line up with
collective/cultural. Really though, your question is forcing me to do a
lot of visualization. I eagerly await the rest of the SES series for
Wilber to do the work. I'll try to return to this post to give you my
contemplated answer (i'm still recovering from a flu)
all the confusions seem to be clarified at:
http://wilber.shambhala.com/index.cfm/
in
"Excerpt G: Toward A Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies"
especially the section of the excerpt under figure 4.
the confusion i had was between the metaphysical substance model of
each level of reality...physical world, mental body, soul body,
etc...vs the physical reality/brain coevolving alongside the interior
layers...
what i think happens is not the higher "bodies" leaving footprints in
the lower physical body/brain as we develop..but the higher "realms" of
experience are better seen as totally personal-subjective, including
sensory, with physical and energetic correlates in the actual
reality-realm. though..the inner-outer distinction in the higher
(usually lumped in the interior) soul levels is pretty blurred to me :p
In Sex, eco, spirit and in integral psychology he simplifies the
quadrants and hints at how one might fit the quadrants into one single
line/stream. I think it has to do with your ability to envision all the
quadrants into one stream. I believe this is what wilber calls
vision-logic...you must find the logos of the matter---then put it in a
vision. Really it should be called intuitive apperception of concepts.
Wilber reads Kant so i don't think this suggestion is overly speculative
around 5 days ago i was thinking of the coevolution of each quadrant
(and each line in each quadrant) and a new kind of vision began opening
to me of it all as one growing organism..i knew it was profound..but
only a glimpse as usual for me.
It is called contemplation of thinking as a type of yoga---jnana yoga.
In Up From Eden, wilber apparently claims it is the highest type of
yoga. The path to the dharmakaya. This is probably a hint to buy more
of his books
.
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| User: "G.T. Tyson" |
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| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
07 Jun 2005 06:36:47 PM |
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wrote:
murana wrote:
wrote:
m-urana wrote:
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
you so desperately need to get laid
gtt
.
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| User: "murana" |
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| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
14 Jun 2005 11:20:10 AM |
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G.T. Tyson wrote:
whyzard@mail.com wrote:
murana wrote:
whyzard@mail.com wrote:
m-urana wrote:
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
you so desperately need to get laid
gtt
thats what everyone used to tell me before i actually did...now they
just accept theres no hope for me :)
.
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| User: "murana" |
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| Title: Re: On-Screen vs Real-Life |
14 Jun 2005 11:12:55 AM |
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wrote:
murana wrote:
wrote:
m-urana wrote:
btw do u agree subtle energies fit into the map as objective energies
in the right quadrants and as feelings/experiences in the
inner-individual quadrant (corresponding to the objective energies in
the same way the senses correlate to objective things)? seems right
but a bit confusing, and kw doesn't discuss it at all..just has
"subtle" and even bioenergetic in the inner experience quadrant i
think...i imagined that's because he doesn't want to make any
controversial claims. he talks about the chakras and i think
corresponds them to the inner levels, but seems kinda obvious the
chakras are objective energies even tho he brushes over that. just
annoys me. lol
In up from eden he gives hints on how chakras might line up with
collective/cultural. Really though, your question is forcing me to do a
lot of visualization. I eagerly await the rest of the SES series for
Wilber to do the work. I'll try to return to this post to give you my
contemplated answer (i'm still recovering from a flu)
all the confusions seem to be clarified at:
http://wilber.shambhala.com/index.cfm/
in
"Excerpt G: Toward A Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies"
especially the section of the excerpt under figure 4.
the confusion i had was between the metaphysical substance model of
each level of reality...physical world, mental body, soul body,
etc...vs the physical reality/brain coevolving alongside the interior
layers...
what i think happens is not the higher "bodies" leaving footprints in
the lower physical body/brain as we develop..but the higher "realms" of
experience are better seen as totally personal-subjective, including
sensory, with physical and energetic correlates in the actual
reality-realm. though..the inner-outer distinction in the higher
(usually lumped in the interior) soul levels is pretty blurred to me :p
In Sex, eco, spirit and in integral psychology he simplifies the
quadrants and hints at how one might fit the quadrants into one single
line/stream. I think it has to do with your ability to envision all the
quadrants into one stream. I believe this is what wilber calls
vision-logic...you must find the logos of the matter---then put it in a
vision. Really it should be called intuitive apperception of concepts.
Wilber reads Kant so i don't think this suggestion is overly speculative
around 5 days ago i was thinking of the coevolution of each quadrant
(and each line in each quadrant) and a new kind of vision began opening
to me of it all as one growing organism..i knew it was profound..but
only a glimpse as usual for me.
It is called contemplation of thinking as a type of yoga---jnana yoga.
In Up From Eden, wilber apparently claims it is the highest type of
yoga. The path to the dharmakaya. This is probably a hint to buy more
of his books
hmm..think aurobindo wrote alot on the way of integral knowledge as a
spiritual path.
and others...inc crowley.. have mentioned the "highest philosophy"
being a higher contemplation uniting contrary ideas leading to a
transrational knowing ("above the abyss").
would like to find more on the subject..
0 = 2 seems to be a nice expression of all this i think..
.
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