| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Sir Frederick" |
| Date: |
19 Sep 2005 10:53:15 AM |
| Object: |
Paradigm Sickness |
'Paradigm sickness' is a new phrase I have coined to reference
the human condition that may occur with a person when that person's
self model that describes to that person what it is and means to be
human, starts and continues to erode. I have previously referred to a
terminal form as "death by paradigm shift". An intermediate form is needed,
thus "paradigm sickness".
This is not at all the same as Kierkegard's "Sickness Unto Death". That is a
reference to despair without Christ.
"Paradigm sickness" need not be fatal, renewed practice of known meaning
giving stories and the practice of new stories, either self confabulated or
received from the culture may get one through. Also biological
tools may help, such as breeding, pets, drugs, etc.
This requires more considerations, perhaps yours?
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill
*************************
Phrase of the week :
"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has
seen and thinking what nobody has thought."
-- Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893-1986)
:-))))Snort!)
**************************************
.
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
20 Sep 2005 06:54:47 AM |
|
|
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:vhmti11gi6euhcoardof8dpudck6u7srn4@4ax.com...
'Paradigm sickness' is a new phrase I have coined to reference
the human condition that may occur with a person when that person's
self model that describes to that person what it is and means to be
human, starts and continues to erode. I have previously referred to a
terminal form as "death by paradigm shift". An intermediate form is
needed,
thus "paradigm sickness".
Because human beings typically identify themselves with their body,
their mind, or the categories or labels placed upon them by others or
themselves, a crisis of indentity frequently occurs as a matter of
course in one's existence. "Paradigm sickness" covers the bill as well
as anything
This is not at all the same as Kierkegard's "Sickness Unto Death".
That is a
reference to despair without Christ.
Actually, it is exactly that. The erosion of indentity occurs because
the self can no longer be satisfied with its belief in its own identity,
even existence, and, rejecting as shallow or less real than itself any
description that comes from identification with or denial of imposed
labels, searches for its true nature. Many say this painful process of
realizing the self as independant from any physical, social, or mental
construct is the beginning of wisdom.
Indeed, I would say that this is simple mental/spiritual exhaustion; I
am tired of the constant need to (futilely) remind myself that I am
"caucasian", "male", "middle-aged", "middle-class", "intelligent", etc,
etc, - on and on with the long list of things that I use to keep
reminding me that I exist. In truth, I do not need or really want the
old litany... I want to be.
"Paradigm sickness" need not be fatal,
Sometimes it is, if the individual cannot cut through the self-imposed
bs. Fatality, in this instance, is usually self-imposed, as well.
renewed practice of known meaning
giving stories and the practice of new stories, either self
confabulated or
received from the culture may get one through.
Hello? That is the problem, not the solution. You, yourself, have called
this sort of thing a deceit; why would you want to continue a practice
that: a) causes the mortal angst in the first place, and b) denies you
the truth about yourself?
And, in a complete (apparent) one-eighty, I say that telling yourself
those stories can temporarily hold yourself together if you are actually
going through flashes of ego-death for the first few times. The thing to
remember, though, is that it is merely a rest between bouts with reality
and NOT a solution.
Also biological
tools may help, such as breeding,
Breeding? As in:
Sex? Temporary only. Besides, most people in the throws of battle for
themselves lose interest in sex anyway.
Good social skill? People with a need to see themselves as real tend to
withdraw, rather than worry about which fork to use.
Actual selection of stock for the creation of specific traits? Helps me
not at all, and since the issue is one of spirit not of biology, not
likely to help my progeny, either.
pets,
Actually, this one I agree with. Having something to care for and that
gives and receives affection *is* a help by maintaining a connection
with what is real.
drugs, etc.
I agree, however, very likely not the ones you advocate. And the ones I
think should be used, shouldn't be used in a state of extreme distress
without the guidance of someone of great knowledge in such things.
This requires more considerations, perhaps yours?
Yes. There is ultimately only one solution: Realizing your true nature.
Aides:
1. Abandon the idea that the self is defined by biological or social
imperatives.
2. Excercise of any sort increases endorphine production and lifts some
of the depression that can set in during such a crisis.
3. Help others less fortunate. There is nothing better for putting your
own problems in perspective. Go do something for someone who is in real
difficulty.
4. Yoga
5. Meditation
6. Prayer
7. Long list of other "folk stories" that actually *have* the answer.
Bahadur Singh
When the student is ready, a teacher appears. - Zen
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dare" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
19 Sep 2005 09:10:57 PM |
|
|
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:vhmti11gi6euhcoardof8dpudck6u7srn4@4ax.com...
'Paradigm sickness' is a new phrase I have coined to reference
the human condition that may occur with a person when that person's
self model that describes to that person what it is and means to be
human, starts and continues to erode. I have previously referred to a
terminal form as "death by paradigm shift". An intermediate form is
needed,
thus "paradigm sickness".
This is not at all the same as Kierkegard's "Sickness Unto Death". That is
a
reference to despair without Christ.
"Paradigm sickness" need not be fatal, renewed practice of known meaning
giving stories and the practice of new stories, either self confabulated
or
received from the culture may get one through. Also biological
tools may help, such as breeding, pets, drugs, etc.
This requires more considerations, perhaps yours?
An accurate diagnosis of my ailment, Dr. McNeill! :-)
I suffer with "paradigm sickness" from despair without a "self."
I cannot seem to find a way to integrate both
the magical deception of "self" and
the revelation of understanding it's emptiness.
Stories and biological tools are either problematical or unsuccessful.
Without some way to integrate these models,
is there another choice besides:
Dying with the Truth ...or
Living with the Lie?
Thanks,
-
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
20 Sep 2005 11:31:24 PM |
|
|
"Dare" <clydadare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dgnr66$3uju$1@news3.infoave.net...
An accurate diagnosis of my ailment, Dr. McNeill! :-)
I suffer with "paradigm sickness" from despair without a "self."
Let me assure you, you have a self.
I cannot seem to find a way to integrate both
the magical deception of "self"
First of all, discard any notions of what your self is or is not. The
self is not an idea or a "deception". The deception comes from assuming
that we know what we are: thin, fat, sucessful, a failure, thoughtful, a
nice guy, an awful guy, a strawman composed of senses and qualia, or
whatever the flavor de jour happens to be. Whatever you, your friends,
our society has said that you are is not you. Discard it all.
and
the revelation of understanding it's emptiness.
Do not "understand" its emptiness, BE empty and rejoice in it; it is
your freedom. Rid yourself of what you "think" you are.
Stories and biological tools are either problematical or unsuccessful.
What tools have you used? For how long? Do not confuse stories and
"biological" tools for something that will aid you.
Without some way to integrate these models,
I tell you, drop the models. They are fun to talk about and argue over,
but they will not free you.
is there another choice besides:
Dying with the Truth ...or
Living with the Lie?
Yes.
You have been living with the lie already: everything you think you are,
everything everyone has told you that you are. DO bring your death into
this, for it is the one thing that will clarify for you who you are. YOU
are the one who will die. YOU are the one who feels. Pure, unadulterated
*you*.
Some constructive tips:
1. Abandon the idea that the self is defined by biological or social
imperatives.
2. Exercise of any sort will increase endorphin production and lift some
of the depression that can set in during such a crisis.
3. Help others less fortunate. There is nothing better for putting your
own problems in perspective. Go do something for someone who is in real
difficulty.
4. Yoga or martial arts
5. Meditation
6. Gardening or any other hobby that quiets and steadies the mind.
7. Avoid alcohol except in very small quantity, it will exacerbate the
problem.
8. Do not avoid being with people, but spend some time by yourself.
9. Go to the woods or the desert or the mountains. Be alone there. Be
awestruck.
I gather you don't believe in God, but in case you do, prayer helps, but
let it be unassuming and simple. When you are done, assume you have been
heard and an answer is forthcoming; go about your other activities.
If you don't believe in God, you can have the same effect by affirming
your needs to your subconscious. State them clearly and simply.
Afterward, let go the burden of worrying about the problem and go about
your business. Assume your subconscious will work on the problem and get
back to you with a solution.
If any of this strikes a chord with you, or you just need someone to
correspond with, feel free to email me directly. (Been there, done
this.)
bahadurREMOVE@familyshawTHIS.com Just take "Remove" and "This" from the
address.
Bahadur Singh
I am, therefore I am (I don't draw conclusions).
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dare" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 07:56:22 AM |
|
|
"Bahadur Singh" <bahadurREMOVE@familyshawTHIS.com> wrote
"Dare" <clydadare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dgnr66$3uju$1@news3.infoave.net...
is there another choice besides:
Dying with the Truth ...or
Living with the Lie?
Yes.
You have been living with the lie already: everything you think you are,
everything everyone has told you that you are. DO bring your death into
this, for it is the one thing that will clarify for you who you are. YOU
are the one who will die. YOU are the one who feels. Pure, unadulterated
*you*.
Some constructive tips:
1. Abandon the idea that the self is defined by biological or social
imperatives.
2. Exercise of any sort will increase endorphin production and lift some
of the depression that can set in during such a crisis.
3. Help others less fortunate. There is nothing better for putting your
own problems in perspective. Go do something for someone who is in real
difficulty.
4. Yoga or martial arts
5. Meditation
6. Gardening or any other hobby that quiets and steadies the mind.
7. Avoid alcohol except in very small quantity, it will exacerbate the
problem.
8. Do not avoid being with people, but spend some time by yourself.
9. Go to the woods or the desert or the mountains. Be alone there. Be
awestruck.
I gather you don't believe in God, but in case you do, prayer helps, but
let it be unassuming and simple. When you are done, assume you have been
heard and an answer is forthcoming; go about your other activities.
If you don't believe in God, you can have the same effect by affirming
your needs to your subconscious. State them clearly and simply.
Afterward, let go the burden of worrying about the problem and go about
your business. Assume your subconscious will work on the problem and get
back to you with a solution.
If any of this strikes a chord with you, or you just need someone to
correspond with, feel free to email me directly. (Been there, done
this.)
Thank You...this was extremely helpful.
It seems I do believe in God because I keep
going round and round between faith and doubt
but I always end up back with God...then start over. :-)
Bahadur Singh
I am, therefore I am (I don't draw conclusions).
Excellent line!
At least I can hold on to(or Be) that.
I greatly appreciate your response.
With gratitude,
Dare
.
|
|
|
| User: "turtoni" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 08:15:11 AM |
|
|
Dare wrote:
is there another choice besides:
Dying with the Truth ...or
Living with the Lie?
how about living with the truth?
turtoni
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 04:53:44 AM |
|
|
"Bahadur Singh" <bahadurREMOVE@familyshawTHIS.com> wrote in message
news:A8adnaVyw4aHf63eRVn-vg@comcast.com...
"Dare" <clydadare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dgnr66$3uju$1@news3.infoave.net...
An accurate diagnosis of my ailment, Dr. McNeill! :-)
I suffer with "paradigm sickness" from despair without a "self."
Let me assure you, you have a self.
More accurately, you "are" a self (as well as having selves).
I cannot seem to find a way to integrate both
the magical deception of "self"
First of all, discard any notions of what your self is or is not. The
self is not an idea or a "deception". The deception comes from assuming
that we know what we are: thin, fat, sucessful, a failure, thoughtful, a
nice guy, an awful guy, a strawman composed of senses and qualia, or
whatever the flavor de jour happens to be. Whatever you, your friends,
our society has said that you are is not you. Discard it all.
You have identified some of the "selves".
and
the revelation of understanding it's emptiness.
Do not "understand" its emptiness, BE empty and rejoice in it; it is
your freedom. Rid yourself of what you "think" you are.
It is also recommended that you celebrate what you think you are, while
contemplating who is doing the thinking.
Stories and biological tools are either problematical or unsuccessful.
What tools have you used? For how long? Do not confuse stories and
"biological" tools for something that will aid you.
Without some way to integrate these models,
I tell you, drop the models. They are fun to talk about and argue over,
but they will not free you.
Thats part of the celebration ..ehhh Bahadur :)
is there another choice besides:
Dying with the Truth ...or
Living with the Lie?
Yes.
You have been living with the lie already: everything you think you are,
everything everyone has told you that you are. DO bring your death into
this, for it is the one thing that will clarify for you who you are. YOU
are the one who will die. YOU are the one who feels. Pure, unadulterated
*you*.
Lies or illusions are fated to die.Part of the process of growing self
awareness.
The "half empty glass" is filling. Recognise this and "REALLY" celebrate.
Some constructive tips:
1. Abandon the idea that the self is defined by biological or social
imperatives.
2. Exercise of any sort will increase endorphin production and lift some
of the depression that can set in during such a crisis.
3. Help others less fortunate. There is nothing better for putting your
own problems in perspective. Go do something for someone who is in real
difficulty.
4. Yoga or martial arts
5. Meditation
6. Gardening or any other hobby that quiets and steadies the mind.
7. Avoid alcohol except in very small quantity, it will exacerbate the
problem.
8. Do not avoid being with people, but spend some time by yourself.
9. Go to the woods or the desert or the mountains. Be alone there. Be
awestruck.
I gather you don't believe in God, but in case you do, prayer helps, but
let it be unassuming and simple. When you are done, assume you have been
heard and an answer is forthcoming; go about your other activities.
If you don't believe in God, you can have the same effect by affirming
your needs to your subconscious. State them clearly and simply.
Afterward, let go the burden of worrying about the problem and go about
your business. Assume your subconscious will work on the problem and get
back to you with a solution.
If any of this strikes a chord with you, or you just need someone to
correspond with, feel free to email me directly. (Been there, done
this.)
An excellent menu (that CAN include "FRIES")...
BOfL
bahadurREMOVE@familyshawTHIS.com Just take "Remove" and "This" from the
address.
Bahadur Singh
I am, therefore I am (I don't draw conclusions).
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Wordsmith" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
20 Sep 2005 08:42:28 PM |
|
|
Truth or...? *chuckle*
W : )
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
19 Sep 2005 05:47:48 PM |
|
|
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:vhmti11gi6euhcoardof8dpudck6u7srn4@4ax.com...
'Paradigm sickness' is a new phrase I have coined to reference
the human condition that may occur with a person when that person's
self model that describes to that person what it is and means to be
human, starts and continues to erode. I have previously referred to a
terminal form as "death by paradigm shift". An intermediate form is
needed,
thus "paradigm sickness".
This is not at all the same as Kierkegard's "Sickness Unto Death". That is
a
reference to despair without Christ.
"Paradigm sickness" need not be fatal, renewed practice of known meaning
giving stories and the practice of new stories, either self confabulated
or
received from the culture may get one through. Also biological
tools may help, such as breeding, pets, drugs, etc.
This requires more considerations, perhaps yours?
--
Rites of passage, by definition, moves one out of a particular comfort zone.
Disorientation will take place, particularly befor the individual
understands the process, so your phrase works for me in that context.
Once the process is understood, the term paradigm elation would fit.
A friend recently had his first parachute jump, saying he has never been so
terrified in his life.
His second produced one of the most enjoyable experiences.
My take on Kierkard's is "despair that comes from growing without
realization".
BOfL
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sir Frederick" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
19 Sep 2005 06:49:39 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:47:48 GMT, "Brian Fletcher" <brianf8@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:vhmti11gi6euhcoardof8dpudck6u7srn4@4ax.com...
'Paradigm sickness' is a new phrase I have coined to reference
the human condition that may occur with a person when that person's
self model that describes to that person what it is and means to be
human, starts and continues to erode. I have previously referred to a
terminal form as "death by paradigm shift". An intermediate form is
needed,
thus "paradigm sickness".
This is not at all the same as Kierkegard's "Sickness Unto Death". That is
a
reference to despair without Christ.
"Paradigm sickness" need not be fatal, renewed practice of known meaning
giving stories and the practice of new stories, either self confabulated
or
received from the culture may get one through. Also biological
tools may help, such as breeding, pets, drugs, etc.
This requires more considerations, perhaps yours?
--
Rites of passage, by definition, moves one out of a particular comfort zone.
Disorientation will take place, particularly befor the individual
understands the process, so your phrase works for me in that context.
Once the process is understood, the term paradigm elation would fit.
A friend recently had his first parachute jump, saying he has never been so
terrified in his life.
His second produced one of the most enjoyable experiences.
My take on Kierkard's is "despair that comes from growing without
realization".
BOfL
Some of my discussions here have produced some stress.
In my effort to understand this condition the subject phrase
popped up.
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead of
understanding.
Must be the idiot culture, couldn't possibly be the idiot people.
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill
*************************
Phrase of the week :
"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has
seen and thinking what nobody has thought."
-- Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893-1986)
:-))))Snort!)
**************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
20 Sep 2005 06:57:23 AM |
|
|
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:75jui1de0ub2r0fd8jkgmbmq93easlhoh9@4ax.com...
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead of
understanding.
Or it could be that many intelligent people actually have experience
with what you term "magic"?
Bahadur Singh
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however
improbable, must be the truth. (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)
.
|
|
|
| User: "turtoni" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 12:51:10 PM |
|
|
Sir Frederick wrote:
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead of
understanding.
what do you mean by practice magic?
Bahadur Singh wrote:
Or it could be that many intelligent people actually have experience
with what you term "magic"?
describe an example of a magic experience?
turtoni
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 07:27:58 PM |
|
|
"turtoni" <turtoni@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:EPqdnW2mXKATAKzeRVn-iQ@comcast.com...
Sir Frederick wrote:
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead of
understanding.
what do you mean by practice magic?
Bahadur Singh wrote:
Or it could be that many intelligent people actually have experience
with what you term "magic"?
describe an example of a magic experience?
I am disinclined to use the term "magic"; it is the term that Sir
Frederick uses to include pretty much everything that isn't part of the
physical universe and therefor, by his lights, non-existent. The term is
a useful way to dismiss things categorically and pejoratively, but not
very conducive to a discussion of any possible phenomena that may not
have a physical origin.
I would postulate that the mind itself, exclusive of the biochemical
activity of the brain, is possibly not of physical composition.
The self, (exclusive of identification with the physical body, the mind,
and association with social groups) I am certain is not a thing of the
physical world.
Notwithstanding the above, there may be reason to believe that the self
and the mind arise within the physical world, but are not part of it.
Other types of "magic" I think may exist, but are pertinent.
Bahadur Singh
'For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any
path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile
challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,
looking, breathlessly.' - Don Juan
.
|
|
|
| User: "turtoni" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 08:12:59 PM |
|
|
"Bahadur Singh" <bahadurREMOVE@familyshawTHIS.com> wrote in message
news:gNGdnWysKIcWZ6zeRVn-sA@comcast.com...
"turtoni" <turtoni@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:EPqdnW2mXKATAKzeRVn-iQ@comcast.com...
Sir Frederick wrote:
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead of
understanding.
what do you mean by practice magic?
Bahadur Singh wrote:
Or it could be that many intelligent people actually have experience
with what you term "magic"?
describe an example of a magic experience?
I am disinclined to use the term "magic"; it is the term that Sir
Frederick uses to include pretty much everything that isn't part of the
physical universe and therefor, by his lights, non-existent. The term is
a useful way to dismiss things categorically and pejoratively, but not
very conducive to a discussion of any possible phenomena that may not
have a physical origin.
have you ever watched the show psychic detectives? it's pretty cool.
I would postulate that the mind itself, exclusive of the biochemical
activity of the brain, is possibly not of physical composition.
why? is that the same for a dog or an ant?
The self, (exclusive of identification with the physical body, the mind,
and association with social groups) I am certain is not a thing of the
physical world.
what difference does that make?
Notwithstanding the above, there may be reason to believe that the self
and the mind arise within the physical world, but are not part of it.
because we cant completely understand how they work?
Other types of "magic" I think may exist, but are pertinent.
so the self and mind are "magic" and other types exist?
i'm trying to understand what you mean.
Bahadur Singh
'For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any
path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile
challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,
looking, breathlessly.' - Don Juan
turtoni - a challenging path presents many points of view.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 10:04:23 PM |
|
|
"turtoni" <turtoni@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XPqdnQ5DUq2BmK_enZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Bahadur Singh" <bahadurREMOVE@familyshawTHIS.com> wrote in message
news:gNGdnWysKIcWZ6zeRVn-sA@comcast.com...
"turtoni" <turtoni@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:EPqdnW2mXKATAKzeRVn-iQ@comcast.com...
Sir Frederick wrote:
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead
of
understanding.
what do you mean by practice magic?
Bahadur Singh wrote:
Or it could be that many intelligent people actually have
experience
with what you term "magic"?
describe an example of a magic experience?
I am disinclined to use the term "magic"; it is the term that Sir
Frederick uses to include pretty much everything that isn't part of
the
physical universe and therefor, by his lights, non-existent. The
term is
a useful way to dismiss things categorically and pejoratively, but
not
very conducive to a discussion of any possible phenomena that may
not
have a physical origin.
have you ever watched the show psychic detectives? it's pretty cool.
Not much of a tv watcher, I'm afraid.
I would postulate that the mind itself, exclusive of the biochemical
activity of the brain, is possibly not of physical composition.
why?
Personal bias, mostly : )
Short version? The ability of the mind to preceive and analyse symbols.
I see the mind as the interface between the self and the brain (maybe
akin Sir Frederick's synaesthesia, though not an "abnormal" one ; ). If
there was only contact between self and brain, wouldn't one *see* only
the biochemical process of the brain?
Instead, normal perception appears to be a complete analog of sense
perceptions as well as additional imagery related to cognition and
memory. If there is evidence of any physical thing that can accomplish
this, I have never heard of it.
is that the same for a dog or an ant?
I would imagine that the process is extant for any creature that could
be said to have a mind. If an ant has anything resembling a mind, it
would probably be infinitesimal.
The self, (exclusive of identification with the physical body, the
mind,
and association with social groups) I am certain is not a thing of
the
physical world.
what difference does that make?
Not being tied to the physical implies (at least) the possibility of
immortality.
Notwithstanding the above, there may be reason to believe that the
self
and the mind arise within the physical world, but are not part of
it.
because we cant completely understand how they work?
Not necessarily. I am saying that it would seem the natural processes of
the universe tend to give rise to life, life gives rise to
consciousness, consciousness to self-awareness; this appears to be
pretty much a given.
This self that originates from primordial star fire, chemical ooze, and
biological evolution *may* then be something that transcends the
physical. Certainly we have aspirations in that direction: love, art,
music, philosophy, compassion, self sacrifice.
What a marvelous adventure that would be, if so! Who knows where it
could lead?
Other types of "magic" I think may exist, but are pertinent.
so the self and mind are "magic" and other types exist?
I am sorry, I meant to say *not* pertinent. Therefore, I would prefer to
defer : ) answering, for now at least. I don't think it is important,
and too many issues complicate discussion.
i'm trying to understand what you mean.
Me, too, sometimes ; -)
turtoni - a challenging path presents many points of view.
Prevents boredom.
Bahadur Singh
I think I am! I think I am! (The Little Engine that Philosophized)
.
|
|
|
| User: "turtoni" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
24 Sep 2005 10:33:16 PM |
|
|
have you ever watched the show psychic detectives? it's pretty cool.
Bahadur Singh
Not much of a tv watcher, I'm afraid.
oh. well it pretty much proves that there are "psychic's" amongst us.
this type see into the past and solve crimes.
I would postulate that the mind itself, exclusive of the biochemical
activity of the brain, is possibly not of physical composition.
why?
Personal bias, mostly : )
Short version? The ability of the mind to preceive and analyse symbols.
I see the mind as the interface between the self and the brain (maybe
akin Sir Frederick's synaesthesia, though not an "abnormal" one ; ). If
there was only contact between self and brain, wouldn't one *see* only
the biochemical process of the brain?
hmm. i always thought that the self was the brain. for example when the
brain dies there seems to be no more self in people. not meaning to sound
flippant. i guess you're noticed that too so you must mean something else.
Instead, normal perception appears to be a complete analog of sense
perceptions as well as additional imagery related to cognition and
memory. If there is evidence of any physical thing that can accomplish
this, I have never heard of it.
well we dont really have to great an idea of how the brain works tho..
is that the same for a dog or an ant?
I would imagine that the process is extant for any creature that could
be said to have a mind. If an ant has anything resembling a mind, it
would probably be infinitesimal.
because it's brain is rather small. the bigger the brain the more the self.
The self, (exclusive of identification with the physical body, the
mind, and association with social groups) I am certain is not a thing
of the physical world.
what difference does that make?
Not being tied to the physical implies (at least) the possibility of
immortality.
but your self must be tried to the physical in some way.
Notwithstanding the above, there may be reason to believe that the
self and the mind arise within the physical world, but are not part of
it.
not part of it?
because we cant completely understand how they work?
Not necessarily. I am saying that it would seem the natural processes of
the universe tend to give rise to life, life gives rise to
consciousness, consciousness to self-awareness; this appears to be
pretty much a given.
This self that originates from primordial star fire, chemical ooze, and
biological evolution *may* then be something that transcends the
physical. Certainly we have aspirations in that direction: love, art,
music, philosophy, compassion, self sacrifice.
how do those aspirations transcend the physical?
What a marvelous adventure that would be, if so! Who knows where it
could lead?
well death does put a bummer on everything.
man is supposed to think about sex (in some related way or another..) every
7 seconds and i imagine we ponder about our own mortality (in some related
way or another..) almost as often.
turtoni - thats kinda ironic.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
27 Sep 2005 06:59:11 AM |
|
|
Guess I'll have to forego the non-responsive essay that I have been
composing in pretense of an answer to your questions and actually answer
the questions. The writing did serve to clarify my own thinking, so that
*should* lend itself to brevity, at least.
; -)
"turtoni" <turtoni@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:yfWdnbz5lZ3mh6veRVn-gA@comcast.com...
hmm. i always thought that the self was the brain. for example when
the
brain dies there seems to be no more self in people. not meaning to
sound
flippant. i guess you're noticed that too so you must mean something
else.
You're not being unjustifiably flippant; there is little, if any,
evidence objective evidence to support my postion and I am not arguing
with a view to persuading; I can't, of course, prove my assertion. It is
my belief, however, and it is a belief justified by personal experience.
For my own part, personal experience is the major factor that leads me
to the conclusions that the brain, mind, and self are separate and
distinct.
The flimsy evidence:
a. Anecdotal: an abundance of historial, first person accounts of the
existence of a spiritual substance that is not of physical compostion
and that is non-dependant upon the physical. There are, at least, two
accounts of resurrection.
b. At this point, I think it would be safe to say that even science
would make a (qualified) stipulation that brain and mind are separate,
at least insomuch as the mind could be viewed a field generated *by* the
brain; that is, an attribute of the brain rather than the matter itself.
This is merely suggestive, and does not even address the issue of "self"
except by implication.
I would imagine that the process is extant for any creature that
could
be said to have a mind. If an ant has anything resembling a mind, it
would probably be infinitesimal.
because it's brain is rather small. the bigger the brain the more the
self.
This doesn't apply regarding intelligence and I am disinclined to apply
it to self for that, if no other, reason.
The self, (exclusive of identification with the physical body, the
mind, and association with social groups) I am certain is not a
thing
of the physical world.
what difference does that make?
Not being tied to the physical implies (at least) the possibility of
immortality.
but your self must be tried to the physical in some way.
I don't believe so. Or, more accurately, I believe that my sense of
personal identity persists regardless.
Notwithstanding the above, there may be reason to believe that the
self and the mind arise within the physical world, but are not part
of
it.
not part of it?
Not separate in the true Cartesian sense. I think the physical dependant
on the self, rather than the reverse. Having reality arranged this way
not only grants immortallity, but complete free will as well. ; -)
because we cant completely understand how they work?
Not necessarily. I am saying that it would seem the natural
processes of
the universe tend to give rise to life, life gives rise to
consciousness, consciousness to self-awareness; this appears to be
pretty much a given.
This self that originates from primordial star fire, chemical ooze,
and
biological evolution *may* then be something that transcends the
physical. Certainly we have aspirations in that direction: love,
art,
music, philosophy, compassion, self sacrifice.
how do those aspirations transcend the physical?
I think we can come up with examples that have absolutely no
evolutionary necessity in the competitive sense. In some ways, it is
perhaps the best evidence for a trancendental self.
Please rest assured that my answers were every bit as unsatisfactory to
me as they must be to you. I had never really intended to make so many
unprovable assertions in this forum. On the upside, the exercise has
opened avenues of speculation and study that I had not previously
considered. For example: I can postulate the mechanism and reason
evolution would come up with intelligence; how so, then, consciousness?
(That is, how is the sense of self competative?)
Bahadur Singh
This is no ordinary fool you're dealing with.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
26 Sep 2005 06:22:35 AM |
|
|
turtoni,
I have not been ignoring your questions, indeed, I have been studiously
creating an answer that may never get the point. I am finding it
interesting, but so far it is neither complete nor responsive.
Later today, I will attempt to give some sort of interim answer to your
questions, always assuming I can come up with something coherent and not
founded on "I believe" as the soul (pun intended) basis for the belief.
I apologise for the delay.
Bahadur Singh
The ultimate reason is 'because'. ; -)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "zinnic" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
20 Sep 2005 08:50:16 PM |
|
|
Bahadur Singh wrote:
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:75jui1de0ub2r0fd8jkgmbmq93easlhoh9@4ax.com...
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead of
understanding.
Or it could be that many intelligent people actually have experience
with what you term "magic"?
Bahadur Singh
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however
improbable, must be the truth. (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)
Like fairies at the bottom of the garden?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
20 Sep 2005 10:47:10 PM |
|
|
"zinnic" <zeenric2@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1127267416.661042.189940@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bahadur Singh wrote:
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:75jui1de0ub2r0fd8jkgmbmq93easlhoh9@4ax.com...
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead
of
understanding.
Or it could be that many intelligent people actually have experience
with what you term "magic"?
Bahadur Singh
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however
improbable, must be the truth. (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)
Like fairies at the bottom of the garden?
No. Realization of the nature of self. First person, subjective
experience of reality by other means than of the senses and without the
interpretation the mind.
Bahadur Singh
Those students who have become one with the universe will be allowed to
go on and become two with the universe.
.
|
|
|
| User: "zinnic" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 11:07:11 AM |
|
|
Bahadur Singh wrote:
"zinnic" <zeenric2@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1127267416.661042.189940@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bahadur Singh wrote:
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:75jui1de0ub2r0fd8jkgmbmq93easlhoh9@4ax.com...
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead
of
understanding.
Or it could be that many intelligent people actually have experience
with what you term "magic"?
Bahadur Singh
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however
improbable, must be the truth. (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)
Like fairies at the bottom of the garden?
No. Realization of the nature of self. First person, subjective
experience of reality by other means than of the senses and without the
interpretation the mind.
Explain what you mean by a "realization" that is independent of the
senses and mind.
Bahadur Singh
Those students who have become one with the universe will be allowed to
go on and become two with the universe.
Is that some sort of non-sexual procreation?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 03:46:32 PM |
|
|
"zinnic" <zeenric2@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1127318831.559740.57960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No. Realization of the nature of self. First person, subjective
experience of reality by other means than of the senses and without
the
interpretation the mind.
Explain what you mean by a "realization" that is independent of the
senses and mind.
There are those that believe that the underlying reality of all things
is undivided, the self included. If you are no longer trying to grasp
the world about you through the senses (the long way around, as it
were), you become aware of this underlying reality. The realization that
you are part of an undiferentiated field of consciousness; the actor,
the action, and the acted upon are all the same. The world of the mind
and the senses is an illusory overlay that we have confused with
reality.
Those students who have become one with the universe will be allowed
to
go on and become two with the universe.
Is that some sort of non-sexual procreation?
Nope. It's a joke.
Bahadur Singh
I live in my own world... Peaceful visitors welcome.
.
|
|
|
| User: "zinnic" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
22 Sep 2005 09:23:50 AM |
|
|
Bahadur Singh wrote:
"zinnic" <zeenric2@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1127318831.559740.57960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No. Realization of the nature of self. First person, subjective
experience of reality by other means than of the senses and without
the
interpretation the mind.
Explain what you mean by a "realization" that is independent of the
senses and mind.
There are those that believe that the underlying reality of all things
is undivided, the self included. If you are no longer trying to grasp
the world about you through the senses (the long way around, as it
were), you become aware of this underlying reality. The realization that
you are part of an undiferentiated field of consciousness; the actor,
the action, and the acted upon are all the same. The world of the mind
and the senses is an illusory overlay that we have confused with
reality.
There are those who believe the Earth is flat. Do you believe this, or
do you demand evidence for such an 'unearthly' assertion.
Explain who/what is the "you" that becomes "aware of the underlying
reality." even though it is 'independent of the senses and mind'. Is
it one of 'those turtles all the way down' things?
Those students who have become one with the universe will be allowed to
go on and become two with the universe.
Is that some sort of non-sexual procreation?
Nope. It's a joke.
So is the question!
Bahadur Singh
I live in my own world... Peaceful visitors welcome.
Need directions on how to get there!
Regards...Zinnic.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bahadur Singh" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
22 Sep 2005 07:37:25 PM |
|
|
"zinnic" <zeenric2@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1127399030.398962.280820@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bahadur Singh wrote:
"zinnic" <zeenric2@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1127318831.559740.57960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No. Realization of the nature of self. First person, subjective
experience of reality by other means than of the senses and
without
the
interpretation the mind.
Explain what you mean by a "realization" that is independent of
the
senses and mind.
There are those that believe that the underlying reality of all
things
is undivided, the self included. If you are no longer trying to
grasp
the world about you through the senses (the long way around, as it
were), you become aware of this underlying reality. The realization
that
you are part of an undiferentiated field of consciousness; the
actor,
the action, and the acted upon are all the same. The world of the
mind
and the senses is an illusory overlay that we have confused with
reality.
There are those who believe the Earth is flat. Do you believe this, or
do you demand evidence for such an 'unearthly' assertion.
That the earth is flat? No. As for my above statement, yes. I believe
it, and no, it is not without evidence. Is it sufficient evidence and of
a type that would convince someone else? No, not really, but that is the
nature of the game.
Explain who/what is the "you" that becomes "aware of the underlying
reality." even though it is 'independent of the senses and mind'.
It is you, though you seem not be aware of it. You don't remember, and
preoccupation with the phenomenal world keeps you from realizing it.
Same with all of us, until reality comes and hits us over the head.
Is
it one of 'those turtles all the way down' things?
No, it just is. Or rather, you just *are*. Or rather, it's *you* "all
the way down" ; -)
I live in my own world... Peaceful visitors welcome.
Need directions on how to get there!
Regards...Zinnic.
The correct (and corny) answer is, you already are.
Bahadur Singh
'The more you explain it, the less I understand it' -- Twain
.
|
|
|
| User: "zinnic" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
24 Sep 2005 08:39:10 AM |
|
|
Bahadur Singh wrote:
"zinnic" <zeenric2@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1127399030.398962.280820@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bahadur Singh wrote:
"zinnic" <zeenric2@gate.net> wrote in message
news:1127318831.559740.57960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No. Realization of the nature of self. First person, subjective
experience of reality by other means than of the senses and
without
the
interpretation the mind.
Explain what you mean by a "realization" that is independent of
the
senses and mind.
There are those that believe that the underlying reality of all
things
is undivided, the self included. If you are no longer trying to
grasp
the world about you through the senses (the long way around, as it
were), you become aware of this underlying reality. The realization
that
you are part of an undiferentiated field of consciousness; the
actor,
the action, and the acted upon are all the same. The world of the
mind
and the senses is an illusory overlay that we have confused with
reality.
There are those who believe the Earth is flat. Do you believe this, or
do you demand evidence for such an 'unearthly' assertion.
That the earth is flat? No. As for my above statement, yes. I believe
it, and no, it is not without evidence. Is it sufficient evidence and of
a type that would convince someone else? No, not really, but that is the
nature of the game.
Explain who/what is the "you" that becomes "aware of the underlying
reality." even though it is 'independent of the senses and mind'.
It is you, though you seem not be aware of it. You don't remember, and
preoccupation with the phenomenal world keeps you from realizing it.
Same with all of us, until reality comes and hits us over the head.
Is
it one of 'those turtles all the way down' things?
No, it just is. Or rather, you just *are*. Or rather, it's *you* "all
the way down" ; -)
I live in my own world... Peaceful visitors welcome.
Need directions on how to get there!
Regards...Zinnic.
The correct (and corny) answer is, you already are.
Bahadur Singh
'The more you explain it, the less I understand it' -- Twain
That kind of sums it up in a nutshell. I is me and you is you, and
never the Twain shall meet! Regards ...Zinnic :-).
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Sleepyhead" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 04:55:41 AM |
|
|
'Paradigm sickness' is a new phrase I have coined to reference
the human condition that may occur with a person when that person's
self model that describes to that person what it is and means to be
human, starts and continues to erode
About 12 years ago I entered a Catholic seminary in England to train as
a priest. During my 3 year stay I learned I was a
slightly-more-than-latent homosexual, and that I didn't believe in God.
Suffice to say I suffered from Paradigm Sickness for a few years
afterwards; still do to a certain extent.
....
So let's talk about Magic. In particular let's talk about 'magic' as it
relates to healing oneself from paradigm sickness (because it's all
very well identifying a disease but the important question is: How do
you cure it?)
"Paradigm sickness" need not be fatal, renewed practice of known meaning giving stories and the practice of new stories, either self confabulated or received from the culture may get one through. Also biological tools may help, such as breeding, pets, drugs, etc.
....
As you've observed: it's not just one's thoughts that have to adjust -
it's one's practices too.
However I would say that for me it's neither the practice of going to
church, nor my thoughts about God that are the most difficult bit to
deal with - the bit that needs healing: it's that memories from my
childhood keep popping into my head to remind me of significant events
that now have mixed significance for me. I love corales, for instance,
but even though the words mean nothing to me (as I don't believe in
God), I still find that the combination of words and music moves me and
- for the duration of the hymn - I believe again. It's like having a
dream where your dead parents stand around smiling at you, and you're a
child again. Wonderful, and shattering when you wake up.
It is amazing how many intelligent people practice magic instead of understanding.
Well OK. But I would say that I have little control over which memories
pop into my head as I go about my business, and that this isn't idiocy
- it's training. And it's training that went in deep because it went in
early. Of course I could go into therapy but (having parents who are
counsellors) I consider normative psychology as much religion as
science and I'd probably find I spent more time picking holes in the
'reason why' I feel a particular way than in actually dealing with the
painful fact that my memories are now of a life long-gone.
... renewed practice of known meaning giving stories and the practice of new stories, either self confabulated or received from the culture may get one through. Also biological tools may help, such as breeding, pets, drugs, etc.
Ok. Well I've tried the new-age hippy thing (stories about my life) and
it didn't work: the stories don't have the 'pull' of religion because
they're layered on top of what already exists (a mini-me that
desperately want to believe in God, but isn't allowed). In short: I
didn't want a /story/ - I wanted something /real/ (I know there's a
conflict at work there, but hey! humans aren't necessarily all that
rational when it comes down to it). I've tried sex (didn't help, just
made me feel empty inside), pets (this sometimes helps, but I can't
carry our cat around with me all the time - she hates going outside for
one thing), and drugs (again, depending on mood, this either
obliterates my sense of 'self' (i.e. I pass out), or just makes it
worse (I sit in a corner pondering all the things that have gone wrong
in my life).
Nope. None of this helped.
Why?
Well I think that what I want is for someone to take away the painful
memories that dog me. These memories are painful because I believed
them when I was a kid, and I don't believe them now, so there's a
conflict between my 'inner child' and my rational self. I don't believe
there is a resolution to this conflict other than death because
/that's/ what will finally obliterate the whole lot.
So why carry on living?
Well I happen to loathe the idea that someone should clean up my mess,
so suicide's out, and in the absence of deliberately killing myself I
continue to exist until I die. So I, like Sysiphus, continue to push
this fucking stone forever upwards, until I'm released from my prison.
Of course when I start to think like this I get depressed, and I
usually try and beat this depression by doing something for my partner,
or smiling at a stranger: 'acting nice' for want of a better phrase.
For some reason I find it helps.
As for demythologising - be careful who you demythologise: not
everybody wants it, not everybody needs it, and you mightn't
necessarily make happy human beings in the process.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sir Frederick" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 06:09:36 AM |
|
|
On 21 Sep 2005 02:55:41 -0700, "Sleepyhead" <simonharpham@usa.net> wrote:
<clip>
As for demythologising - be careful who you demythologise: not
everybody wants it, not everybody needs it, and you mightn't
necessarily make happy human beings in the process.
I am enough of a curmudgeon that if I could tell a story
that would make heads explode, I would repeat such story,
as long as it didn't explode my head.
As far as paradigm sickness, I have it chronically, my explorations
never cease. At this point I am trying to get out of a case of
significant disgust with the human condition. Self deceit
at our core!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sleepyhead" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
21 Sep 2005 06:17:45 AM |
|
|
I am enough of a curmudgeon that if I could tell a story that would make heads explode, I would repeat such story, as long as it didn't explode my head.
LOL.
I sometimes wonder if Sartre was inclined the same way and just
invented existentialism as a clever way of making people feel as fed up
as he was. The philosophical equivalent of exploding heads. (Mars
Attacks!)
As far as paradigm sickness, I have it chronically, my explorations never cease. At this point I am trying to get out of a case of significant disgust with the human condition. Self deceit at our core!
Oh God! Not that again! ; )
Why does the human condition /disgust/ you? Having a bad day? Or a bad
life?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "RyanT" |
|
| Title: Re: Paradigm Sickness |
20 Sep 2005 12:49:02 AM |
|
|
The disorientation is also pointed out in Thomas Kuhn's "Structures of
Scientific Revolutions" as well. Forget which chapter but it was
somewhere near the end.
He talked about a period of disorientation that occurs during a shift,
as if someone wore a lense that reversed the polarity of their vision.
For a little while the subject won't know what's going on, but after a
intermediary period they get used to it and can operate within that
paradigm fairly easily.
A musical equivalent would be the feeling of disarray you might feel
during a shift in key signature.
Ryan
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
