Quality
Plenty of people out there would like you to believe that there's a
binary distinction in quality of people. Those who earn money,
idealized liberal politics, are white or black, or straight or gay, are
seen as the Chosen Ones who can do no wrong, and the rest of us are
lesser. This kind of clubhouse mentality appeals to the Crowd best of
all, since if there's an elect who will solve all of our problems, the
rest of us can go back to slacking off and watching TV while they fix
things.
Quality is an illusory concept in some usages, but a fundamental one.
Consider that even among a highly-refined Nordic population, such as in
Scandinavia, there are vast differences between individuals. Some are
geniuses, some are superior warriors, and some top out at being short
order cooks who can drink entire bottles of vodka. These are different
qualities between people, but does this mean we can put them on a
linear spectrum? After all, much as a body needs a stomach (dumber than
a brain), nervous system (weaker than muscles), and muscles (less
durable than a stomach), doesn't any healthy society also need genius
leaders, brave warriors, and durable artisans and laborers?
Within any population, there's a great deal of diversity. Consider your
friends, or at least the people who are dear to you -- undoubtedly,
some are smarter, some are stronger, and some more steadfast in
day-to-day tasks. Geniuses make poor short order cooks, as their
attention tends to wander and they want to "innovate" with each
iteration of the process, which is moronic if you want a traditional
omelette (did it really need raisins and cilantro with avioli sauce?
probably not). Each friend has different strengths, and together, they
work in parallel to form a healthy friend group. You don't hold it
against big Ed if he's not as smart as Stan the computer geek, because
you care about him for other qualities.
Such is the case also with human populations. At some point, tolerance
and intolerance merge, and this is along the mental creasing point of
parallelism: there are different societies, localities, groups and even
people. Together they can form larger and more flexible structures,
especially if they do not try to linearize - or become one single
entity, under a single set of rules. This doesn't mean it's not time to
thin the herd; there are plenty of people who are extraneous, even if
we decide they have some positive qualities. The bottom line is that
with fewer people, our ecosystem can continue to operate autonomously,
which requires 3/4 of earth's space for it and 1/4 for us, which
requires fewer people living less "first world" lifestyles. It does
mean however that we can understand each other without being "equal"
and without comparing ourselves by the same yardstick.
In this thought, the greenest hippie and the most diehard National
Socialist converge: they believe that local communities should rule
themselves, avoiding the creation of a linear society that, lacking any
goals outside of its own growth, cancerously expands until it threatens
the very system that birthed and sustains it ("nature"). Even some
fag-hater like Rev. Fred Phelps and an ACT UP activist can agree that
not everywhere on earth needs to tolerate blatant homosexuality, and
that not everywhere on earth needs to be ruled by the Iron Hand of
interpreted Christ. Perhaps some communities will choose to live that
way, and some will be like the Montrose in Houston, so gay friendly
that the parking meters make kissing noises. Perhaps some communities,
even nations, will be happy under future Hitlers, and others will be
perpetual Clintonites. Can they coexist? Definitely; the only thing
keeping them from doing so is the idea that we need large centralized
republics like the USA, EU or China to unite us.
There is an inverse relationship between leadership capability and the
number of people trying to make a decision. In most cases, an
individual will arrive at some "work in progress" decision when
confronted with a problem, and by developing their response, eventually
solve it. Two people take longer, especially if they have different
goals. When you get to a decent-sized committee, it's more likely that
they will reach a compromise that takes no decisive action, unless the
problem is so obvious that response is more reaction that considered
design (giant rubbery monsters attacking Tokyo require dramatic
response). When you get to the point of a nation with 300 million
people all voting on the same issue, some with the wisdom of genius
leaders and others with the knowledge limitations of fry cooks, there's
no chance. They are doomed by the very act of trying to find one rule
that fits all of them.
No clearer example of this problem occurs than in American politics.
The big cities on the coasts have one outlook on the world, which is a
liberal democratic cosmopolitanism, but the other states - where actual
work gets done (just kidding, sort of) - have an entirely different
pragmatic traditionalism. Both groups get yanked around by politicians
who do their best to appear to be one thing, while continuing business
at usual behind the facade of token issues (abortion, civil rights,
evolution in schools, drugs, homosexuals in military). Did George W.
Bush really represent Texas, for example? Or Clinton really represent
liberalism? These guys are showmen, and they're not evil; they're
earning a living like the rest of us, but by being public symbols. This
system created them and perpetuates them.
You'd never think that hippies and Confederates would walk on the same
path, but what's come out of the sensible extremes of leftism,
especially where it converges with environmentalism, is an emphasis on
localization. Not coincidentally, the more traditional elements of
American society (almost exclusively in the South) came up with the
same idea some centuries ago, realizing that a federal coalition of
self-ruling, independent States made more sense than a monolithic
federal entity. What's true in Georgia might be irrelevant in New York,
and vice versa. If we overcome our balkanized identification with a
political outlook, left or right, we can see that above those divisions
common sense alone is king, and that common sense says we are different
in local community as much as in individual spirit. We can work in
parallel, but only if we accept our differences, and the way to do that
is not to force "tolerance" on everyone (thus asking them to give up
their own character) but to tolerate differences between communities,
and to sort according to that agenda. If people really want to be
stoners, they can go to California; extremist Catholic communities that
don't want abortion do not have to have it.
That's individuality. You can either accept it or freak out about it,
but one thing's for sure: modern society crushes individuality and
parallelism by forcing us into linear, gigantic, one-size-fits-all
conglomerations that by representing "all" of our interests, represent
no one, unless you can find a person who naturally is an average of all
other people. Nature's order clashes with the rigid binary logic of
humankind, but is that kneejerk logic really natural to us, or is it a
pit stop through history caused by democracy and the corresponding
consumerism and egomania of a group of individuals trying to find one
standard for all? Think each, not all. Individuality - whether of
belief, behavior, race, sex preference or regionality - is superior to
creating a vast machine and forcing us to conform to an average. It's
the only way to preserve our unique roles and through them, the overall
quality of our species.
November 17, 2005
http://www.*****.com/zine/articles/intolerance/
.
|
|
| User: "tooly" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
17 Nov 2005 07:34:14 PM |
|
|
<infoterror@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132275481.748677.294150@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Quality
Plenty of people out there would like you to believe that there's a
binary distinction in quality of people. Those who earn money,
idealized liberal politics, are white or black, or straight or gay, are
seen as the Chosen Ones who can do no wrong, and the rest of us are
lesser. This kind of clubhouse mentality appeals to the Crowd best of
all, since if there's an elect who will solve all of our problems, the
rest of us can go back to slacking off and watching TV while they fix
things.
Quality is an illusory concept in some usages, but a fundamental one.
Consider that even among a highly-refined Nordic population, such as in
Scandinavia, there are vast differences between individuals. Some are
geniuses, some are superior warriors, and some top out at being short
order cooks who can drink entire bottles of vodka. These are different
qualities between people, but does this mean we can put them on a
linear spectrum? After all, much as a body needs a stomach (dumber than
a brain), nervous system (weaker than muscles), and muscles (less
durable than a stomach), doesn't any healthy society also need genius
leaders, brave warriors, and durable artisans and laborers?
Within any population, there's a great deal of diversity. Consider your
friends, or at least the people who are dear to you -- undoubtedly,
some are smarter, some are stronger, and some more steadfast in
day-to-day tasks. Geniuses make poor short order cooks, as their
attention tends to wander and they want to "innovate" with each
iteration of the process, which is moronic if you want a traditional
omelette (did it really need raisins and cilantro with avioli sauce?
probably not). Each friend has different strengths, and together, they
work in parallel to form a healthy friend group. You don't hold it
against big Ed if he's not as smart as Stan the computer geek, because
you care about him for other qualities.
Such is the case also with human populations. At some point, tolerance
and intolerance merge, and this is along the mental creasing point of
parallelism: there are different societies, localities, groups and even
people. Together they can form larger and more flexible structures,
especially if they do not try to linearize - or become one single
entity, under a single set of rules. This doesn't mean it's not time to
thin the herd; there are plenty of people who are extraneous, even if
we decide they have some positive qualities. The bottom line is that
with fewer people, our ecosystem can continue to operate autonomously,
which requires 3/4 of earth's space for it and 1/4 for us, which
requires fewer people living less "first world" lifestyles. It does
mean however that we can understand each other without being "equal"
and without comparing ourselves by the same yardstick.
In this thought, the greenest hippie and the most diehard National
Socialist converge: they believe that local communities should rule
themselves, avoiding the creation of a linear society that, lacking any
goals outside of its own growth, cancerously expands until it threatens
the very system that birthed and sustains it ("nature"). Even some
fag-hater like Rev. Fred Phelps and an ACT UP activist can agree that
not everywhere on earth needs to tolerate blatant homosexuality, and
that not everywhere on earth needs to be ruled by the Iron Hand of
interpreted Christ. Perhaps some communities will choose to live that
way, and some will be like the Montrose in Houston, so gay friendly
that the parking meters make kissing noises. Perhaps some communities,
even nations, will be happy under future Hitlers, and others will be
perpetual Clintonites. Can they coexist? Definitely; the only thing
keeping them from doing so is the idea that we need large centralized
republics like the USA, EU or China to unite us.
There is an inverse relationship between leadership capability and the
number of people trying to make a decision. In most cases, an
individual will arrive at some "work in progress" decision when
confronted with a problem, and by developing their response, eventually
solve it. Two people take longer, especially if they have different
goals. When you get to a decent-sized committee, it's more likely that
they will reach a compromise that takes no decisive action, unless the
problem is so obvious that response is more reaction that considered
design (giant rubbery monsters attacking Tokyo require dramatic
response). When you get to the point of a nation with 300 million
people all voting on the same issue, some with the wisdom of genius
leaders and others with the knowledge limitations of fry cooks, there's
no chance. They are doomed by the very act of trying to find one rule
that fits all of them.
No clearer example of this problem occurs than in American politics.
The big cities on the coasts have one outlook on the world, which is a
liberal democratic cosmopolitanism, but the other states - where actual
work gets done (just kidding, sort of) - have an entirely different
pragmatic traditionalism. Both groups get yanked around by politicians
who do their best to appear to be one thing, while continuing business
at usual behind the facade of token issues (abortion, civil rights,
evolution in schools, drugs, homosexuals in military). Did George W.
Bush really represent Texas, for example? Or Clinton really represent
liberalism? These guys are showmen, and they're not evil; they're
earning a living like the rest of us, but by being public symbols. This
system created them and perpetuates them.
You'd never think that hippies and Confederates would walk on the same
path, but what's come out of the sensible extremes of leftism,
especially where it converges with environmentalism, is an emphasis on
localization. Not coincidentally, the more traditional elements of
American society (almost exclusively in the South) came up with the
same idea some centuries ago, realizing that a federal coalition of
self-ruling, independent States made more sense than a monolithic
federal entity. What's true in Georgia might be irrelevant in New York,
and vice versa. If we overcome our balkanized identification with a
political outlook, left or right, we can see that above those divisions
common sense alone is king, and that common sense says we are different
in local community as much as in individual spirit. We can work in
parallel, but only if we accept our differences, and the way to do that
is not to force "tolerance" on everyone (thus asking them to give up
their own character) but to tolerate differences between communities,
and to sort according to that agenda. If people really want to be
stoners, they can go to California; extremist Catholic communities that
don't want abortion do not have to have it.
That's individuality. You can either accept it or freak out about it,
but one thing's for sure: modern society crushes individuality and
parallelism by forcing us into linear, gigantic, one-size-fits-all
conglomerations that by representing "all" of our interests, represent
no one, unless you can find a person who naturally is an average of all
other people. Nature's order clashes with the rigid binary logic of
humankind, but is that kneejerk logic really natural to us, or is it a
pit stop through history caused by democracy and the corresponding
consumerism and egomania of a group of individuals trying to find one
standard for all? Think each, not all. Individuality - whether of
belief, behavior, race, sex preference or regionality - is superior to
creating a vast machine and forcing us to conform to an average. It's
the only way to preserve our unique roles and through them, the overall
quality of our species.
November 17, 2005
http://www.*****.com/zine/articles/intolerance/
This path of reasoning has merit IMHO.
Perhaps needs to be followed, see where it comes out.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stu" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
17 Nov 2005 10:56:02 PM |
|
|
On 2005-11-17 17:34:14 -0800, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> said:
November 17, 2005
http://www.*****.com/zine/articles/intolerance/
This path of reasoning has merit IMHO.
Perhaps needs to be followed, see where it comes out.
I certainly hope your not wishing to follow this down the alimentary
canal. The URL tells you where it will come out.
*****.com? ;-)
Isn't this just a variation of Nietzche's perspectivism*? There is no
truth, and every issue can be viewed form various perspectives.
--
~Stu
*For the new philosopher's out there:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/AncientAndModernPhilosophy/Transition-Part1.html
Nietzche's
most influential contribution to the course of modern Western
philosophy is the doctrine of Relativism, or what he called
"perspectivism." The philosophical doctrine of Realism proposes that
philosophical and scientific theories actually correspond to and
represent reality. In contrast, Relativism proposes that our concepts
represent perspectives we impose on reality. Theories do not correspond
to reality, they interpret reality. In other words, a belief regarding
what is true and real is contingent on the attitude one takes in
looking at a particular problem.
According to Nietzche's Relativism, Truth is that which an individual
chooses to perceive and believe. It devalues the idea of an absolute
truth or a universal standard of morality. Science is only another
perspective that allows one to interact with and manipulate nature.
Ethics are a set of beliefs that have no basis in rationality or divine
revelation. It is a matter of aesthetics and opinion. Our idea of
"Self" does not correspond to any real Self. In his view, there is no
real enduring Self. The "Self" is a persona, or mask, that persons
arbitrarily build and wear. Persons primarily represent bundles of
drives and instincts. The drift of Nietzche's Relativism is clearly
nihilistic, but it is representative of the transition in modern
philosophy.
.
|
|
|
| User: "tooly" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
18 Nov 2005 10:13:21 AM |
|
|
"Stu" <Nospam@towel.com> wrote in message
news:2005111720560275249%Nospam@towelcom...
On 2005-11-17 17:34:14 -0800, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> said:
November 17, 2005
http://www.*****.com/zine/articles/intolerance/
This path of reasoning has merit IMHO.
Perhaps needs to be followed, see where it comes out.
I certainly hope your not wishing to follow this down the alimentary
canal. The URL tells you where it will come out.
*****.com? ;-)
Isn't this just a variation of Nietzche's perspectivism*? There is no
truth, and every issue can be viewed form various perspectives.
--
~Stu
*For the new philosopher's out there:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/AncientAndModernPhilosophy/Transition-Part1.html
Nietzche's
most influential contribution to the course of modern Western philosophy
is the doctrine of Relativism, or what he called "perspectivism." The
philosophical doctrine of Realism proposes that philosophical and
scientific theories actually correspond to and represent reality. In
contrast, Relativism proposes that our concepts represent perspectives we
impose on reality. Theories do not correspond to reality, they interpret
reality. In other words, a belief regarding what is true and real is
contingent on the attitude one takes in looking at a particular problem.
According to Nietzche's Relativism, Truth is that which an individual
chooses to perceive and believe. It devalues the idea of an absolute truth
or a universal standard of morality. Science is only another perspective
that allows one to interact with and manipulate nature. Ethics are a set
of beliefs that have no basis in rationality or divine revelation. It is a
matter of aesthetics and opinion. Our idea of "Self" does not correspond
to any real Self. In his view, there is no real enduring Self. The "Self"
is a persona, or mask, that persons arbitrarily build and wear. Persons
primarily represent bundles of drives and instincts. The drift of
Nietzche's Relativism is clearly nihilistic, but it is representative of
the transition in modern philosophy.
You know Stu, in this day and time, I can't see how anyone could really
argue for moral absolutes. Perhaps as a 'source' only perhaps, but not as
doctrine. All absolutism does, IMHO, is establish a set point in space and
time to build a system around...but does nothing to explain all space or all
time. In other words, ironically, such a supposed system based upon
absolutes would still be only 'relative' to that particular established
origin.
But it does not suggest that we invalidate a given system...perhaps, say...a
particular world culture, and how it has evolved established upon certain
principles supposedly set in granite [Say a Christian God 'perception'
rather than Buddha, or Muhammed etc]. I would contend that we, ourselves,
rooted to the land in our various pockets of influence, could correspond to
such points of time and space [as mental perception equivalents]. As we
amass, our conglomerated largess tends to extrapolate general 'means' to the
various points of perceptive...and thereby, we have come up with our grand
systems which are little more than a regression of all the various points of
perspective that make up that 'grand system'.
If the 'view' of any particular group falls close to that regressive
purview, then the system would be to their liking. But what if one is part
of an outlier grouping? Then the regressive viewpoint would probably be
oppressive...and the system just another form of tyranny.
Instead of large systems that perhaps may serve no one very well, smaller
systems might allow better regressive fits to the general populace that
makes up that smaller system. Tolerance, after all, is a kind of
sacrifice...and less we have to 'tolerate' anything, the happier we are.
Homogeneity might be most efficient.
Anyway, thought the idea had merit...but I wonder how it might be workable
when there is a general tendency for 'radicals' to combine into aggregate
grand units. The 'gravity' of human socialization is only to 'grow larger'
and more complex...so not sure how it would work. Still, it seems to be a
very stable proposition...perhaps elminating the need for social revolutions
and upheaval as we go?
I guess I have a selfish motive in seeing the positivity of this...for I
don't like how the world is developing, and think it would be a good thing
if there were options where those who saw things as I do, could perhaps
create their own society away from the regressive liberalization that seem
so morally repressive [and I know I am not the only one that feels like
this]. And if we might have one break away society, then why not
many...each serving the essential core 'perspective' of truth as envisioned
by that group. Instead of the struggle of party politics to gain power over
the regressive view of the grand system as a skew, why not just allow the
various parties to build their own systems...? Ha...a pipedream rife with
holes and obstacles...but still, interesting. I suppose it would be argued
that this is an argument for going back in time.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
19 Nov 2005 11:24:30 AM |
|
|
The only true "break away society" is yourself. The rest is
predictable.
When I was a kid, I used to ask (like many) , "if people only saw
through my eyes, there would be peace and love"
Ghandi took the approach "change yourself, if you want to change the
world". Didnt stop him trying to change the world, but he had an
appointment with the "martyr syndrome". :)
The paradox is, we only attempt to look deeper, because what initialy
we see creates discomfort.
The whole purpose of the group dynamic, is to lead the individual to
transcendence.
Nothing more, nothing less, (and no mistake!!!)
BOfL
.
|
|
|
| User: "tooly" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
19 Nov 2005 02:18:30 PM |
|
|
<brianf@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:1132421070.461869.222070@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The only true "break away society" is yourself. The rest is
predictable.
When I was a kid, I used to ask (like many) , "if people only saw
through my eyes, there would be peace and love"
Ghandi took the approach "change yourself, if you want to change the
world". Didnt stop him trying to change the world, but he had an
appointment with the "martyr syndrome". :)
The paradox is, we only attempt to look deeper, because what initialy
we see creates discomfort.
The whole purpose of the group dynamic, is to lead the individual to
transcendence.
Nothing more, nothing less, (and no mistake!!!)
BOfL
Ok, I'll go with what you say here. But that leads to 'Bricks in the
Wall'...[see Pink Floyd].
I said in another thread that without recepticle, there is no need for
expression. Without a meeting of life's perception, without
'understanding', then we shrivel up and die [inside at the very least, if
not in totality].
In other words, it is our 'group' identity that gives us any sense of
greater meaning...even a transcendent one.
Can you agree with this? So even if I am an army of ONE, to survive, I must
attempt to 'enlist' members into this 'group' that I am. Otherwise I die a
long slow death behind this 'wall of alienation'...or worse, I sell myself
up to some group offering meaning that comes along.
Nazi's and religious fanatics are created like this I think...and maybe on
the positive side, martyrs too.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Turtoni" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
19 Nov 2005 07:37:04 PM |
|
|
tooly:
In other words, it is our 'group' identity that gives us any sense of
greater meaning...even a transcendent one.
How about the hermit?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
19 Nov 2005 09:42:32 PM |
|
|
It is the group identity that stimulates the need for greater meaning.
Transcendence does not mean segregation or seperation, as is often
predicted (by those who have not attained that consciousness).
To be "in it, but not of it" actually enhances the day to day living
experiences.Turns a perception of survival into the reality of thriving
The interaction is , as alwyas has been, down to the law of
synchronicity. First hand experience of this law allows one to "be"
without the need for attention on "what should be".
When the student is ready the "apple drops on his head" :-)
BOfL
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
17 Nov 2005 07:28:43 PM |
|
|
I read this just after my "exercise" topic.Interesting timing!
The search for individuality is actually fuelled (initially at least)
by the community's attempt to inflict conformity.
Your ref to "pit stop through history" says it all. Whatever lable you
put on those stops, effectively, they are made up of "conformists", or
more acurately, of people who have yet to discover their
individuality(free radicals), which, like their atomic counterparts,
starts to breakdown the status quo, resulting in re-formation, until
the next "free radical" is launched.
A "free radical" doesnt realise its own nature, until the pessure is
on.
BOfL
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "ProjectX43" |
|
| Title: Re: Quality |
18 Nov 2005 11:16:35 AM |
|
|
I think that there's some value to this, but there are some key
"Why?"'s that aren't being asked. It's simple to state that something
is wrong, but if it's wrong, why is the world like this in the first
place? Again, *there's a lot of good points to this, but I don't think
we're looking deep enough.*
Why do we give up certain individualities (what could be considered as
rights) to be part of a large society?
Why does a person, for example, strive to be a US Citizen rather than
stay a Citizen of Mexico?
Why do we attempt to inflict conformity?
The question of law comes to mind when I read this post...you're making
it sound like all general laws or rules or conformities for the large
society are all concrete and unwavering when in all actuality they
aren't. They have the ability to be ammended and fixed to suit the
needs of the populous. Granted it's not like that in all socieities...
I agree that smaller social groups can be better geared for
accomplishing tasks because the abilities of their members are better
defined, there's less waste of talent. Unfortunately, one specific
group may only be able to accomplish type of task. What happens when
they need to achieve a task that it is not geared for? Do they not seek
to expand their capabilities and membership? Isn't that basically
what's happened to modern society?
I happen to think that reverting back to a state of total individualism
is a step away from progression. Humans were individuals at one point
in time, they were also far less advanced than we are now. I don't see
the point of regressing back to that point. Might we already too far
advanced to make it back to that way of life?
These are just a few questions...I'm sure I can come up with more. I
think it would be much more productive to find the answers to the
fundamental questions first before calling for a breakdown of the
sociological structures that *WE'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR CREATING* in the
first place.
.
|
|
|
|

|
Related Articles |
|
|