Science > Philosophy > Re: We need an invisible guy in the sky to know right from wrong?
| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
22 Nov 2007 08:04:43 AM |
| Object: |
Re: We need an invisible guy in the sky to know right from wrong? |
On Oct 27, 9:21=EF=BF=BDam, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
The biggest fraud of all is that we need a God to know what is right
or wrong! If you spend the entire day in sweltering heat gleaning a
small bag of grain from a field and someone tries to take it from you,
I think you will intuitively realize this is against your best
interest, and if you see someone beating and raping someone you love,
I think you will intuitively realize this is also wrong.
Well, religion provides a set of prepackaged morals. What you wrote
makes sense, but unfortunately what is logical is not always practical
when it comes to humans my friend.
Atheists have little or no connection with their inner peace and they
do not operate under a fear of God, so they are left to their own
devices.
As such, atheist have no authenticity in their peace practice, but are
'fear based' practitioners just as many theists are.
The secular humanists talks a good talk...but in the end they have no
incentive to do right other than the fear of pain from breaking man
made laws.
Lets look at a few of these atheists to get at the facts:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D509.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D529.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D630.0
Until atheists become peace based, they will fail at being 'humane
humans' just as theists fail, since most theists are not authentic in
their practice and run by fear as well.
Fear of the law, fear of God, fear of bad karma, fear of hell...those
fears do not make one 'authentic' in one's peace practice.
Take away fear of the law, fear of God, fear of bad karma, fear of
hell and you have a different person.
Does the thief that does not steal because a policeman is looking a
truly honest person?
A truly virtuous life remains the same irrespective of such fears and
is not based on them.
Really the 'religion of the atheists' AKA secular humanism does not
fail the atheist...it is the atheist that fails to make use of the
wisdom that their religion offers them.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D640.0
The atheists failure is rooted in motivational ignorance and lack of
desire.
Until one sees a need to adopt a certain moral direction why would one
adopt it?
And motivation and direction is solely based on inner peace and a
desire to achieve it and not destroy others inner peace.
But, the atheist is ignorant of what inner peace means, how to achieve
inner peace as well as what destroys others inner peace.
A good start to see what does motivate oneself is to ask yourself why
you wish to do something?
Is it for inner peace?
Or to massage your ego?
Or scared to go to hell?
Or because it feels good?
Or to improve ones karmic debt?
Or because others say so?
Or to hurt another?
Or to fit in...as Peter van Velzen had expressed?
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D646.0
What is your driving force?
Fear based reasons for doing something are not authentic and natural
actions.
The persons actions are based on negative consequences otherwise they
would not do them.
My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my
peace - it is my choice.
Put your inner peace foremost and you will have your answer. When you
align real and authentic actions with those that promote inner peace
you have found enlightenment.
The facts are this: when people are devoid of religion...they
generally stink as humans.
Until atheism can replace theist based religion as a VIABLE and REAL
way to inner peace, with a reverence of humanity, it can never take
over the world and extinguish religion.
Kelsey Bjarnason:
"What the hell would we need "spiritual values" for when we can have
real values instead?"
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V:
Hi and thank you for your reply Kelsey.
Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the
wind is hard to define.
Since spiritual matters deal with the unseen and the unknown, how can
we define them perfectly?
If we could do that they would not be spiritual studies.
You can't see why one person is loving and kind and another person is
a fiend of perennial shame, hate and destruction.
Nor can you see what made the hate monger change into a kind and
loving human.
We can describe spiritual concepts and the journey that made the
change possible, but it is impossible to put our finger on it all
exactly.
Spiritual growth is a journey that is a never ending, an imperfect
process in this life.
But just as we can see the effects of the wind and gravity, while
being blind to its source; we can most definitely see the difference
in people that incorporate spiritual values within their lives when
compared to people that live a life devoid of any spiritual values.
No one said we have to 'investigate it all,' but we do have to give it
some thought if we wish to be at peace.
A Hindu sage once told me "Just as water floes downhill without effort
but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the
human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without
effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than
our base desires."
As such without effort, the defiance based atheists sinks deeper and
deeper into sickness and tragedy as time goes by.
Lets look at some of the 'real values' that atheists develop once they
drop spirituality from the equation Kelsey.
As you can see below, the defiance based, mind manacled, spiritually
sick atheist can go out of their way to be very cruel.
The Buddhists follow the eightfold path of right living and one of
these paths encompasses right speech.
One time I brought up this subject of right speech at alt.atheism and
was responded to as such.
Robibnikoff wrote: "So. Fucking what...do you think I give a flying
***** what you think, dipshit...Not that it's any of YOUR fucking
business...Don't presume that you know what's best for me, you
deluded, motherfucking, cocksucking son of a *****." (condensed)
With my first few posts, I offered to discuss tools that the atheist,
agnostic or theist can all share to develop inner peace.
These are just a few of the responses at alt.atheism on the topics of
developing compassion, simplicity, ethics, morals, mindfulness,
reciprocity, philosophical studies, charity, accepting impermanence,
and developing gratitude.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "So fucking what? Keep it to yourself and
nobody will know what an ***** you are."
Kate wrote: "I've never been not at peace. What you offer makes me
physically ill. It's like a nasty man come round to tell little
kiddees he has candy for them if they touch his pee pee. You know,
most of the atheists I know are as good as children are at discerning
misrepresentation. You aren't trying to help anyone but your own
self. Go away, we have no interest in touching your pee pee."
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "What the ***** has philosophy got to do
with your in-your-face psychopathy?"
Michael Gray wrote: "Stop posting your vile polemic deliberately
nasty, lying Christian? . Please go away. No-one is buying your
poisonous diatribe. Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?"
John Baker wrote: "First of all, this is a newsgroup, not the
freaking public library. Keep it short and to the point. Second,
you're full of *****."
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "We know this deliberately nasty,
slandering liar is a Christian by his fruits...a liar as well as an
idiot...don't be so fucking stupid."
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "You wouldn't know "virtuous behaviour" if
it hit you over the head, whining hypocrite who needs to get the log
out of his own eye before accusing us of a projection of his own
deficiencies."
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "a few hundred lines of irrelevant *****
by a whining hypocrite who
doesn't practice what he preaches, deleted"
Robibnikoff wrote: "Shaddup, you *****."
Michael Gray wrote: "There ain't nothin' lamer than a jabriol
fuckwit"
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "Whi give a *****, in-your-face stuipid
moron?"
John Baker wrote: 'I'd almost feel sorry for him if he wasn't such
a disgusting piece of *****."
Robibnikoff wrote: "I hope that stupid fucker (V) doesn't think I
actually read all that dog ***** he posts."
Robibnikoff wrote: "....no one gives a ***** what you think."
Stoney wrote: "Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to shove a
wooden cross up their arses and rotate at a high rate of speed. I
trust you'll be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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I could send you an almost endless supply of such material to prove
the point that without spiritual values, the atheist is sunk.
The conundrum of the mind manacled, defiance based, spiritually sick
atheist is this.
They need spiritual values to be at peace - yet their own defiance
blocks them from seeking and finding these values.
The atheist that only has a foundation of ego and hate will never find
peace.
If any theist questioning their faith should wonder onto alt.atheism,
for instance, they could see this for themselves with many spiritually
sick example members and their projection of this spiritual sickness
and self hate onto others
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
Robibnikoff wrote: "Blah, blah, blah... you boring sack of *****."
Mark K Bilbo wrote: "..you're an *****...a self-absorbed *****
who thinks everything is about him."
Mark K Bilbo wrote: "For a "peace" freak, you sure are a spiteful
little *****."
Panama Floyd wrote: "...this guy is funny. Why don't we wait a while
before we eat him? Maybe he'll poopie himself!."
John Baker wrote: "Oh, shut the ***** up, you self-righteous twit."
Robibnikoff wrote: "***** you, liar"
Robibnikoff wrote: "You must be an arrogant douche bag.(V)"
Jesus was a ***** wrote: "Never,scumbag ***** for christ.
your a ***** idiot-every post you make proves it."
Michael Gray wrote: "You exhibit all the signs of full clinical
sociopathy, if not actual psychopathy. You need professional help, but
won't take it, as that would entail admitting that the Fuckups that
are always happening to you are YOUR fault."
Michael Gray wrote: "If you insist upon continuing to strut your
massive ego and miniscule education in alt.atheism, we'll use you for
target practice, until we get bored with your repetitious long-winded
empty-headed *****-frosted ignorance."
Michael Gray wrote: "What do you expect from a lying sack of *****?"
Raven wrote: "God, will you get over that fucking ego of yours
already?"
Mark K Bilbo wrote: "what you write is self-absorbed,
condescending, arrogant rife, ego masturbation. You're in love with
yourself, don't care what other people think or feel, and have the
emotional maturity of a two year old."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
All atheists are not like this.
Some spiritual based atheist far surpass theists in compassion and
inner peace.
The troubling thing at alt.atheism is no one speaks out against such
illness and this IS being promoted as atheistic view.
I wrote to the president of American Atheists, I wrote to the UK
Atheists as well s a Secular Humanist Foundation and Sam Harris about
this very topic...none had the courtesy to respond.
Atheists are their own worse enemy when it comes to promoting their
cause and trampling over organized religion.
Just as the bible is a major force with theists leaving religion, the
spiritually sick, mind manacled, defiance based atheist is the best
reason that theists return to their religion.
Such wavering theists quickly come to realize that without a
foundation spirituality the atheist is sunk and rapidly head back to
their church, temple or fellowship to get away from such people.
I brought up the topic of developing a 'church of sorts' or atheist
fellowship to lend guidance and support for right living and
reinforcing the ethics morals and the ideals of atheists and secular
humanism.
I'll leave you with just a few more quotes from Panama Floyd as he
writes on the subject of developing human empathy and compassion to
support moral, ethical and right living through such a fellowship:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
Panama Floyd wrote: "The only thing I need to "support moral,
ethical and right living" is simple human empathy and compassion. That
anyone would need anything else is a mystery to me. Perhaps I'm just a
better person than they are (V)."
Panama Floyd wrote: "Then don't whine like a ***** when your butt
gets fucked,"
Panama Floyd wrote:: "...Take it (bible) and shove it up that smelly
little ***** you're using for a *****."
Panama Floyd wrote: "You're not smart enough, or brave enough to be
an atheist. Keep your idiotic dead-jew-on-a-stick, buttsuck. Fear of
it is probably the only thing keeping you from having sex with your
siblings."
Panama Floyd wrote: "Shaddap, *****. If I want your opinion, I'll
give you one."
Panama Floyd wrote:: "Go ***** yourself, Christian...Were I a violent
man, I'd advocate you all being rounded up and jailed, to keep you
from ruining other lives."
Panama Floyd wrote: "Go ***** yourself, shitstain. You come in here
and insult people-and then whine about the reception you get? *****, I
wish it caused you physical pain to be so ruthlessly stupid."
Panama Floyd wrote: "***** ya brainless fucking twat!"
Panama Floyd wrote: "***** Jesus. Your dead-jew-on-a-stick probably
never existed, and if he did, he was man-not a god. I don't take
"commands" from an illiterate, superstitious Bronze Age peasant.'
Panama Floyd: wrote: "What are *you* doing back here, you dumb *****-
assed punk? Ways of disposing with the human garbage called
"missionaries" is very definately on-topic."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion...as you give so your receive.
When you practice destroying others peace, you will reap self
destruction of inner peace...as you give so your receive
This is universal truth once the prejudice of ego is stripped away.
Whether atheists, theists or Buddhists, I submit that you all drop the
pretense and lies that you have been grasping onto for entire life and
rebuild your life through a foundation of truth and testing and
regenerate yourselves into a truth based agnostic freethinker striving
to be at peace within and with all.
No, Kelsey, I stand by my statement 100% that without spiritual
values, the atheist is sunk.
Words give a glimpse of what our insides are like. Whenever we beat
down others to boost our ego we will never find the peace that we are
desperately seeking.
Destroying others to glorify our ego is not the answer my friends.
And until you change, you will continue on your mockery of a life that
can best be described as the tragedy upon humanity that manifests
itself as the defiance, based, mind manacled, spiritually sick
atheist.
Also see:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D4.0
Good luck,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: We need an invisible guy in the sky to know right from wrong? |
22 Nov 2007 06:10:27 PM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:dcf3b102-23be-418e-9429-66cabb8dd104@r31g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 27, 9:21?am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
The biggest fraud of all is that we need a God to know what is right
or wrong! If you spend the entire day in sweltering heat gleaning a
small bag of grain from a field and someone tries to take it from you,
I think you will intuitively realize this is against your best
interest, and if you see someone beating and raping someone you love,
I think you will intuitively realize this is also wrong.
Wow...do you live in Liverpool..?
BOfL
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: We need an invisible guy in the sky to know right from wrong? |
23 Nov 2007 01:34:22 AM |
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On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:10:27 GMT, "brian fletcher"
<brianf88@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:dcf3b102-23be-418e-9429-66cabb8dd104@r31g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 27, 9:21?am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
The biggest fraud of all is that we need a God to know what is right
or wrong! If you spend the entire day in sweltering heat gleaning a
small bag of grain from a field and someone tries to take it from you,
I think you will intuitively realize this is against your best
interest, and if you see someone beating and raping someone you love,
I think you will intuitively realize this is also wrong.
Wow...do you live in Liverpool..?
Does he live anywhere on this planet?
I doubt it.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: We need an invisible guy in the sky to know right from wrong? |
22 Nov 2007 01:39:08 PM |
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On Nov 22, 6:04=C2=A0am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
On Oct 27, 9:21=EF=BF=BDam, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
The biggest fraud of all is that we need a God to know what is right
or wrong! If you spend the entire day in sweltering heat gleaning a
small bag of grain from a field and someone tries to take it from you,
I think you will intuitively realize this is against your best
interest, and if you see someone beating and raping someone you love,
I think you will intuitively realize this is also wrong.
Well, religion provides a set of prepackaged morals. What you wrote
makes sense, but unfortunately what is logical is not always practical
when it comes to humans my friend.
Atheists have little or no connection with their inner peace and they
do not operate under a fear of God, so they are left to their own
devices.
=2E..we are endowed with a moral faculty that delivers judgments of
right and wrong based on unconsciously operative and inaccessible
principles of action. The theory posits a universal moral grammar,
built into the brains of all humans. The grammar is a set of
principles that operate on the basis of the causes and consequences of
action. Thus, in the same way that we are endowed with a language
faculty that consists of a universal toolkit for building possible
languages, we are also endowed with a moral faculty that consists of a
universal toolkit for building possible moral systems.
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/11/marc-hauser-mor.html
Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal
Sense of Right and Wrong - by Marc Hauser
http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Minds-Nature-Designed-Universal/dp/0060780703
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