Okay: Touche

I think you win the de-bait between ye & me at least.

But I'll hereby defend the USA, because I'm a semi-world traveler, and
was never happier as when we got back home.

I was in Europe--Paris, Naples, and London--a couple of years ago for a
couple of long weeks.

I was not favorably impressed by much of what I saw.

The prices over there do seem too high.

I feel fortunate 7/24 that my grandparents exited from elsewhere
(Warsaw, Odessa).

Your constructive criticisms, however, are welcome by me.

That rioting in Paris is nothing to be proud about b-t-w.

Many/most of the people here are seemingly fed-up with being the
"world's policeman," perhaps as much as the World is seemingly fed-up
with us today.

The election tomorrow may offer a clue as to the U.S. future, though
(imho) it will probably be another ambiguous message because nobody
could say that our representative democracy
is as nice as a picturesque Swiss chocolate, clock, and toy shop.

Santimvah wrote:

"Robert Cohen" <robtcohen@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162847054.161281.133490@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

Q & A

Robt: What is the reality here?

Cohen: I introduced a typical CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR article slanted
toward single-payer.

Robt: So?

Cohen: Well, that's what I do: I'll give my opinion, and try to not be
overly dogmatic, especially since they wanted to throw me out of here
for not being relevant to philosophy.

Robt: And?

Cohen: I'm being kicked in the balls about Mercedes vs Cadillac.

Since when is someone else expressing thier opinion whilst not being
overly
dogmatic about it, reprocesssed into " YOU BEING KICKED IN THE BALLS "
.....
how exactly do you do that?

Robt: Just go thru the anti-American
rabbit-punches, and come back with uppercuts to bore 'em to futility.

Aah, so what you are saying is that it;s ok for you to dump on,
criticise,
complain about, whine on, insult, ridicule, *****, point out, laugh at,
shake your head or fist at, all things american ...... but when someone
else
does it, as in POINTS OUT THE OBVIOUS FLAW in POV's here and there ....
THEY
are the ones being ANTI-American.

OK, so now I know the rules of your game, I'll purposely and consciously
ignore them.

The "topic" is USA Healthcare .... YOU brought it up and said it is not
about to change. My general off the head response comment is "it's as
poor
quality as your automotive industry, much like your Intelligence
Services,
much like your running of Iraq, and much like your Politics - and much
like
New Orleans - poorly planned, badly managed, unprofessional, and
incompetent -"

MY Philosophical point about all that was/is ... and I thought it would
have
been obvious seeing I already said it, it ain't going to change if the
300
million PEOPLE don't change.

But, you can only change yourself, and when you do you will see things
very
differently than you do now. Then America will change instantly before
your
eyes and you'll accept it for what it is, not what you dream/believe it
should be.

Philosophical enough? <G>

RobtCohen thus now responds:

It's common wis-dumb here in the USA that our
United Auto Workers' wages, health, lay-off, and pension benefits are
tres cher especially in relation to Mexico & Brazil of course.

With Sweden, Japan & Germany the health and other benefits
diffrentiations are not so clearcut/apparent.

Yes, I realize that Honda v Nissan v Toyota are competitive stockholder
held companies, but do not Japan, Germany & Sweden also have socialized
medicine?

Japan makes some good quality vehicles & parts:

CONSUMER REPORTS magazine doesn't make their objective surveys out of
fiction.

I now have a Nissan p/up long-bed 2004 (or 2003?)
that was hopefully assembled in Smyrna, Tennessee.

South Korea's Hyundai/Kia are very good buys: I've owned several
Hyundais directly from Korea and maybe also from assembly en Canada.

Daewoo went bankrupt and shutdown in USA & Canada.

GM bought-it-up elsewhere, and apparently the Daewoo division of GM
has many Woo assembly plants all over the World.

We had owned a Daewoo '98 Nubira, but aren't bragging of its quality.

Hyundai is now producing out of Greeneille (?)
near Montgomery, Alabama.

But, nevermind: China willl eventually be eating everybody's
lunch--apparently both in the upscale-market of Mercedes-Lexus &
downscale-market of Elantra-Neon-Fiesta

Hey, ain't that thar Ford Fiesta made in South Korea or Mexico or
where?

B-t-w: Germany alarmingly
has a relatively high unemployment rate--what is it currently?

Their Mercedes, Porsche & BMW cars are indeed considered better quality
than U.S. stuff.

My wife luvs the VW convertibles: We had a couple. in the 1980s and
1990s.

Mercedes of course now owns Chrysler, and some beautiful BMWs are
assembled in the Greenville, South Carolina, area.

Sweden's car corporations are now owned by ...Ford & GM.

Venezuela, by-the-way, assembles cars and I read an article that the
people are investing/speculating in CARS of all things in Venezuela.

This proves that their now allegedly more
socialized economy sort of semi-
works...especially when the oil market is high priced.

Gasolene is reported as currently 11 U.S. cents a gallon in Venezuela.

More to come if you haven't expired from being bored.

Santimvah wrote:

"Robert Cohen" <robtcohen@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162823793.177681.107900@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

So, approximately "twenty percent" of the overall expenses will
continue to go for paperwork, forms, claims, bureaucracy--the usual
disgusting mickey mousean nonsense.

As automobile plants within the USA are shutdown, amongst the major
causes is reportedly the (in comparison disproportionate) medical
burden on each new GM & Ford assembled in USA car.

Have you considered the possibility that americans design and make
lousy
cars, aren't that good at managing companies and change, and that it's
nothing to do with health care?

Well, it's a thought. Do you know of any US car maker that can produce
anything of the same quality of a Ferarri, Lexus, or a Mercedes for
the
price?

Workers in Germany, Italy, Korea, and Japan aren't paid any less than
US
workers overall you know.

The main trouble with Americans, imho, is you read your own news and
PR
reports and forget that there's a real world out there beyond. You're
just
being jerked around with bs and cheap ideological excuses.

I see the morning news that Chrysler is having a domestic car sales
problem too.

Hey, I know "national socialized medicine" is very flawed phenomenon
too:

Is it? Iraq's was top notch before gulf war I, and Nth Vietnam's was
world
class and free to all in the 60's untill they had the ***** bombed out
of
them and 2+ million killed. The UK system isn't perfect but I'd rather
end
up there than the US if I was in a trauma situation.

In Thailand, you can go to the drug store and buy basic cheap
medications
like anti-biotics across the counter without getting prior approval
from
your doctor or HMO and paying thru the nose for the so called
"priveldge".
It's called "personal responsibility" not "socialized enforcement" to
a
set
of rules made by others.

Anyway, how come the US runs a "national socialized education system"
with
free school transportation to boot .......... if socialized systems
are
so
anathema?

I'm hopefully no political-economic demagogue: This is supposed to
be
about philosophy.

To me, the USA looks to be in scary decline, and I blame Democrats
&
Republicans for it, though imho the Republicans have lately been
decidedly incompetent.

Maybe, if it's so bad, it's the entire 300 million Americans in
general
that are to blame. Hasn't anyone ever heard of shared responsibility?

You know about the American Dream Robert? Well, it IS a dream!!! <G>

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1106/p16s01-cogn.html