| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"Lukasz Stafiniak" |
| Date: |
13 Sep 2005 07:05:43 PM |
| Object: |
Values and their indicators |
Happiness, pleasure, pain, suffering and the like are often confused
with values (I mean, things sought for or avoided, "by themselves"),
where they are indicators that help us direct towards the positive
values "good things", and away from "negative values: bad things".
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
14 Sep 2005 11:53:44 AM |
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Lukasz Stafiniak wrote:
Happiness, pleasure, pain, suffering and the like are often confused
with values (I mean, things sought for or avoided, "by themselves"),
where they are indicators that help us direct towards the positive
values "good things", and away from "negative values: bad things".
I beg to differ: Happiness and pleasure are the values. Everything else
is only a means to reach them.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
15 Sep 2005 09:13:29 AM |
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"AE" <hidden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dg9kik$avc$03$2@news.t-online.com...
Lukasz Stafiniak wrote:
Happiness, pleasure, pain, suffering and the like are often confused
with values (I mean, things sought for or avoided, "by themselves"),
where they are indicators that help us direct towards the positive
values "good things", and away from "negative values: bad things".
I beg to differ: Happiness and pleasure are the values. Everything else is
only a means to reach them.
Including all the bad things.
BOfL
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| User: "Lukasz Stafiniak" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
20 Sep 2005 06:11:32 PM |
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The joy of life (the affirmation of life). It is an essential value. It
is likely a precondition to value things.
Values are about choices. You choose to live, and therefore you choose
to choose, day by day, shaping your life like a sculptor.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
21 Sep 2005 07:45:02 AM |
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"Lukasz Stafiniak" <lukstafi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127257892.386326.6290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The joy of life (the affirmation of life). It is an essential value. It
is likely a precondition to value things.
Values are about choices. You choose to live, and therefore you choose
to choose, day by day, shaping your life like a sculptor.
The transition is that from unconscious to conscious choice.
How many times do we hear youngsters say "I didnt chose to be born".
BOfL
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
14 Sep 2005 06:29:41 PM |
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"Happiness? Only an Englishman wants happiness."
-- Nietzsche
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
15 Sep 2005 09:15:10 AM |
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"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1126740581.714380.93260@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
"Happiness? Only an Englishman wants happiness."
-- Nietzsche
I'm an Englishman in Australia.
I have found happiness. :-)
BOfL
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| User: "Lukasz Stafiniak" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
20 Sep 2005 06:01:52 PM |
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Has your life "saturated"? Or have you found the way you are sure of?
Or have you learned to be happy no matter what?
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
21 Sep 2005 07:41:31 AM |
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"Lukasz Stafiniak" <lukstafi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127257312.420989.301990@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Has your life "saturated"?
The illusions have.
Or have you found the way you are sure of?
Absolutely.
Or have you learned to be happy no matter what?
Best described as "irrational happiness".
Neither happy or unhappy in the established sense.
Many "think" we lose our emotional body as we unfold. Not so.
Using an analogy, I now enjoy physical hunger as much as satiety.
Grateful fits well :-)
BOfL
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| User: "Lukasz Stafiniak" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
20 Sep 2005 05:55:07 PM |
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Yes, I want to stress Nietzschean's plurality, but not as a necessary
condition.
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| User: "Lukasz Stafiniak" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
14 Sep 2005 05:24:30 PM |
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Are you indifferent to the means by which you reach happiness? Wouldn't
you be scared by the possibility to be reduced to a "happy plant"?
(E.g. by cheating your mind with drugs.) Assuming that you die feeling
happy, how long would you like to live before that? Do you compare
different ways of being happy: "more happy" -- "less happy"? Do you
work hard to achieve "higher pleasures"?
Observe that when you can corelate happiness with concrete means, you
know how to "follow your happiness". These means are related to some
other aspects of the world than the very fact of your brain's chemistry
of happiness. My view is that you value (some of) these aspects.
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| User: "tg" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
20 Sep 2005 06:12:14 PM |
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Lukasz Stafiniak wrote:
Are you indifferent to the means by which you reach happiness? Wouldn't
you be scared by the possibility to be reduced to a "happy plant"?
(E.g. by cheating your mind with drugs.) Assuming that you die feeling
happy, how long would you like to live before that? Do you compare
different ways of being happy: "more happy" -- "less happy"? Do you
work hard to achieve "higher pleasures"?
Observe that when you can corelate happiness with concrete means, you
know how to "follow your happiness". These means are related to some
other aspects of the world than the very fact of your brain's chemistry
of happiness.
How are they related? Do you experience them? Do you experience them
without affecting your brain chemistry?
-tg
My view is that you value (some of) these aspects.
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| User: "Lukasz Stafiniak" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
20 Sep 2005 10:32:06 PM |
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How are they related? [etc.]
I don't think I can answer this in a productive way.
I like programming (I've loved it since I was a kid). Some people don't
actually like programming, e.g. students that only learn it to pass
some courses. So there is an endeavour: programming. And there is
happiness that it gives to me. And perhaps there are programmers that
are only happy they can do the living, and would rather do something
else with their time than programming.
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| User: "Lukasz Stafiniak" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
20 Sep 2005 10:50:10 PM |
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We don't differ that much.
Man can be happy in his or her life, and therefore life is worth
living.
Life is short, so don't miss a minute of your happiness. (Don't lose
time: create happiness.)
Happiness indicates values: love, creativity, understanding (knowledge,
imagination, empathy), helpfulness, passion, beauty, strength, etc.
What we value is shown by our free choice. Everyone is responsible for
his or her happiness.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
21 Sep 2005 08:00:02 AM |
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Lukasz Stafiniak wrote:
Happiness, pleasure,
Are emotions, emotions are the *responses* of our values judgements.
In order for there to be an emotion, a judgement of an action against
our values has to have been made.
It is possible that three different people can have three totally
different emotions over a particular action and yet each of those
emotions can be valid ie logical.
pain, suffering and the like are often confused
with values (I mean, things sought for or avoided, "by themselves"),
where they are indicators that help us direct towards the positive
values "good things", and away from "negative values: bad things".
NO idea at all what you are getting at or where you are coming from
with that lot.
Try www.importanceofphilosophy.com
Michael Gordge
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| User: "Lukasz Stafiniak" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
21 Sep 2005 03:44:18 PM |
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Are emotions, emotions are the *responses* of our values judgements.
I think that these emotions are not good targets of value judgements,
because of their involvement in the "judgement machinery". They are
regulative emotions. If happiness is valued as a "must-have" emotion,
someone could be tempted to disregulate his or her life so that this
emotion outputs the most all the time. Or the possibility to master the
emotions so that they reflect our conscious choice of values (our
judgement) could be overlooked or misused.
In order for there to be an emotion, a judgement of an action against
our values has to have been made.
And then it is OK if we are conscious of our values, and we realise the
relation of the action with the value. The confusion I've been talking
about is with doing the other way round: when judging the action
resides on its observed emotional output. It is OK if it is a tool to
realise (make aware of, bring to conscious) our values.
I think that one should never say that his life is a failure, BECAUSE
he has never been happy. This is a wrong way (perhas just indicates an
illness of the emotional system, e.g. depression). Realise what you are
about, and be happy with how far you go.
Be happy that you can pursue your dreams, or with what you can
maintain, or that you can let it go if there is no other way, etc.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Values and their indicators |
22 Sep 2005 06:43:52 AM |
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Lukasz Stafiniak wrote:
It is OK if it is a tool to
realise (make aware of, bring to conscious) our values.
Emotions are not primaries, they are not axiomatic, emotions are
secondary responses, therefore they are not a tool of anything.
Either values are successfuly fulfilled (the responce could be called
*happy* or content) or violated (the responce could be called anger or
annoyance) ie we respond accordingly.
Michael Gordge
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