bernardz wrote:

chazwin wrote:

Dear Bernard - you shoot yourself in the foot so well !!!
I suggest that if you have a hand-gun that you keep it unloaded.

Please observe the LOWEST 6...

Translating is let us ignore the top 6.

No just to suggest that as evidence the whole thing is totally bogus.

57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar:

Maybe we should fill the streets of the USA with millions of people
from Qatar and Saudi Arabia to lower the murder rates???????
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Hell all 6 countries except Greece have people with non-white skin!!!!

You are a racist fool!!!

I don't believe so.

BUt if you want to use this as evidence you would have to assume that
Qatar and Saudi Arabia are exemplars of peaceful nations and follow
their example.

The issue about murder has more to do with class

What do you mean by class?

and poverty.

59 and 60 certainly show that poverty is not the problem.

Are rich - *****

and have low murder rates - this makes my point!!!!

Nothing
whatever to do with skin colour!!!

(a)
The skin itself, I doubt but historical actions as a result of people
having the wrong skin maybe important.

I think you need to say more here.

You could say all of them. WHat are YOU trying to say? Are
you trying to suggest that its all the fault of the blacks

Not all but I think you are on to something as US white murder rates are
much lower then US black murder rates.

This is poverty, not colour.

see (a) above

Also to prove that you would need to compare poor whites with poor
blacks and rich whites with rich blacks.

Well lets have the data then!!!!!

But its certainly not all the answer for example if you look at this
URL.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-

At the top six we have the following.

#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people

Now
1) Many of these people are whites
2) US has large numbers of people that come from these regions.

You suggest that it becasue there are more black people in these
counties. Well lets take then one by one.
1) Colombia - destabilised for the last 60 years by the USA.

(b)
So we blame the US for Colombia having high murder rates?

The problems and issue are VERY complex. But yes it could well have
something to do with it.

2) Still in the aftermath of Apartheid, a political system which
destroyed the chances for a entire race of people because of white
greed and institutionalised violence.

(c)
So its whites fault.

Yes very possibly

3) An economic satellite of the USA.

see (b) above

4) See #1

see (b) above

5) Err these are ALL white folk!!!!!

see (c) above

Also so are most of the people in (1) and (4).

6) See #1 & #3.

see (c) and (b)

Oh lets not forget Iraq which should be #1, but was, before the
invasion by American forces probably one of the lowest.

see (b)


Overall your explanation for high murder rates are summarized as the
result of US policy
and white people. Since, I am sure, you would agree with me that US
policy is basically made by whites why not simplify and say that high
murder rates are due to white people. Don't people have to take
responsibility for their own acts sometimes?

Try telling that to the Iraqi baby that was blown to smithereens by a
cruise missile.

What am am doing is inviting you consider that blaming it all on whites
is about as stupid as blaming it all on blacks. You offered into
evidence countries with high murder rates saying that they we non-white
(though you ignored Russia)

and I countered this by showing you the
bottom of the scale mainly populated by non-whites. The whole project
is false. Race is not the place to look for high murder rates. Becasue
the examples contradict each other.
It is probably more to do with personal dissatisfaction and perception
of fairness and opportunity. This CAN be a black problem for
historical, prejudicial, and operational reasons in the US.
I don't think anyone would call Japan, Qatar, Saudi, Indonesia, and
Hong Kong white, and yet they do best. It is worth remarking that Japan
has the strickest gun laws in the West possibly the world - maybe that
is a place to look??

Anyway lets look at the bottom six again.
#57 historically a strong white influence and a strong US ally

So what?

#58 historically a strong white influence

So what?

#60 Non white and one of US strongest supporter.

So what?

#61 Whether Arabs are whites can be debated still its considered very
closely economic tied to the US

So what?

#62 Even more so then #61

- or
something similar???

What I am suggesting is this.

The number of murders is based on many factors including how efficient
your police force in reporting that a murder has taken place, the
availability of guns, the size of the cities, cultural backgrounds etc.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-
capita

I suppose we could play the game of who you compare to whom.


--
Making a website is not so easy but filling it up with suitable material
is extremely difficult.

Observations of Bernard - No 107

--
Making a website is not so easy but filling it up with suitable material
is extremely difficult.

Observations of Bernard - No 107

chazwin wrote:

zinnic wrote:

chazwin wrote:
It is not my intention to "excuse" the excessive murder rate in the
USA, but I suspect that it is your intention to denigrate the USA.

It is my intention to link the death rate with gun use. It is my
intention to invite Americans to grow up and put their guns down. I am
an American citizen, though have lived most of my life in the uk.

IF ONLY nature were to be different and the lamb could lie down with
the lion. IF ONLY human nature was different so that peoples would
abandon their immediate priorities for the greater good of all
humanity. IF ONLY the less physically powerful would eschew weaponry
that levels the field in combatting the more physically powerful. IF
ONLY the more physically powerful would not use their superior power
to dominate those weaker than themselves. IF ONLY..............

I was raised in the UK and remember how we were all horrified by, and
contemptuous of, USA police carrying firearms. I am a long time USA
citizen and have since learned to be thankful that the police are in a
position to defend themselves and citizens (though they are often
'outgunned' by criminal elements').

If a summary death sentence were introduced for all criminal acts
involving guns, guns would cease to be a problem very soon.
It would not be long before the police could dis-arm.

Why do you not recommend initiation of this draconian measure in the UK
where there is no death penalty for serial killers that prey on, and
grotesquely torture, their innocent victims. Under your system should I
assume that they would not be summarily put to death provided guns were
nor involved?

I think that the NRA and the general gun lobby backed by the "cowboy"
element in the USA should be strictly controlled by democratic means.

I think guns should be banned. It is a myth that the constitution
garentees gun ownership. The constitution allows the authorities to
raise and arm militia which is a different matter. Even if the
constitution gareteed gun ownership it is simply time to change that.

I agree that it should be changed by democratic procedures. As you know
, in the USA crimes involving firearms are dealt with more severely
than other comparable crimes. However, to ban ownership of weapons
because ownership is not guaranteed by the constitution would be in
itself unconstitutional unless it was the will of the people. The will
of the people is not represented by the wishful thinking of sections of
the population that happen to think that they know better than the
'crass masses'.

Are we talking about colonialism or gun control?
Whatever the historical stance of the USA it is still peopled by humans
who live and die, and strive and love etc... Most people don't want to
get shot. It seems that the balance of fear (or perception of risk) has
turned many people to wnat guns to protect themeselves. It could be
time to stop. It seems clear that the fear is over weighted.

I was raising the point that the nature of the expansion and
development of the USA significantly differed from the development of
other countries that have gained their independence from world empires.
The development of much of the USA involved a strong gun culture and
this should not be ignored when odious comparisons are made with
countries in which a gun culture was not predominant.
As to your judgement that the wish to own a gun for self protection is
an over reaction to fear, all I can say is that it does not justify
your demand that possession of guns be arbitrarily banned. Big Brother
does not know best.

Zinnic