| Topic: |
Science > Philosophy |
| User: |
"block" |
| Date: |
24 Sep 2004 01:49:40 PM |
| Object: |
Wrong |
I think as one simple fact, we must all accept, that somewhere in the past,
in the infinity of time that came before "now", something went wrong.
Surely we all strive for the same things - and the fact that all is not
perfection right now means that either perfection never existed, and we have
always striven for perfection, or that once upon a time there was perfection
and it was lost.
As we all seem to have experience and knowledge of what
happiness/love/beauty and all the rest of it is, then this experience surely
is proof that we did once live in a state of perfection and it was lost
rather than that we have never known it.
The Bible (if you believe that) states that Paradise was lost by eating an
apple which gave man the knowledge of good and evil and also made man aware
of their nakedness. Nakedness could not only mean physical nakedness, but
the nakedness of ignorance.
The question really is - what happened? Surely with the intelligence and
questioning of man, the apple story is symbolic and I really don't think
that disobedience was the problem.
In my humble opinion, the key thing for a state of Paradise would be Trust.
To be anywhere, to do anything, to never have any fear, to never be afraid
of being laughed at or humiliated or hurt - I am quite convinced that it was
Trust that was somehow broken or lost.
How, or where, or when, or why - when you consider time, time that has been
for ever before now..... why was this Trust lost? Something must have
caused the dissent and bad feeling, an iota of which would have been felt
hundreds of years before it happened in a place like Paradise where every
speck of dust is counted and every leaf falls with a purpose.
Is it possible to regain Paradise?
We shall have to see.
End of Part 1
.
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| User: "ChickenHawk" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 03:10:04 PM |
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"block" <block@space.com> wrote in message
news:8%Z4d.1077$Le.648@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
I think as one simple fact, we must all accept, that somewhere in the past,
in the infinity of time that came before "now", something went wrong.
Surely we all strive for the same things - and the fact that all is not
perfection right now means that either perfection never existed, and we
have
always striven for perfection, or that once upon a time there was
perfection
and it was lost.
As we all seem to have experience and knowledge of what
happiness/love/beauty and all the rest of it is, then this experience
surely
is proof that we did once live in a state of perfection and it was lost
rather than that we have never known it.
The Bible (if you believe that) states that Paradise was lost by eating an
apple which gave man the knowledge of good and evil and also made man
aware
of their nakedness. Nakedness could not only mean physical nakedness, but
the nakedness of ignorance.
The question really is - what happened? Surely with the intelligence and
questioning of man, the apple story is symbolic and I really don't think
that disobedience was the problem.
In my humble opinion, the key thing for a state of Paradise would be
Trust.
To be anywhere, to do anything, to never have any fear, to never be afraid
of being laughed at or humiliated or hurt - I am quite convinced that it
was
Trust that was somehow broken or lost.
How, or where, or when, or why - when you consider time, time that has
been
for ever before now..... why was this Trust lost? Something must have
caused the dissent and bad feeling, an iota of which would have been felt
hundreds of years before it happened in a place like Paradise where every
speck of dust is counted and every leaf falls with a purpose.
Is it possible to regain Paradise?
We shall have to see.
End of Part 1
Look to Darwin for the truth.
.
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| User: "block" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 05:44:14 PM |
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"ChickenHawk" <repug@awol.run> wrote in message
news:TZ-dncYbKrqC4sncRVn-hg@comcast.com...
Look to Darwin for the truth.
NOWHERE in the bible does it mention dinosaurs.
When I was a kid I asked my teachers, how come God invented dinosaurs and
they all died out before man and it doesn't mention that in the bible?
The bible is obviously a load of twaddle.
You know, mankind would be better being brought up by Edward Lear and the
Jumblies that went to Sea in a Sieve and the Pobble who had no Toes than
some story of some "loving and forgiving" God that crucifies his own son.
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| User: "Chzwmn" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 08:37:21 PM |
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I think as one simple fact, we must all accept, that somewhere in the past,
in the infinity of time that came before "now", something went wrong.
Now , here is your first mistake upon which all the rest of your text is based.
Your simple fact is incorrect. To suppose something wen twrong is to suppose
that life the universe and everything was planned in some way - no!
Surely we all strive for the same things - and the fact that all is not
perfection right now means that either perfection never existed, and we have
always striven for perfection, or that once upon a time there was perfection
and it was lost.
Wrong again - we not not all strive for perfection. In fact there is no such
thing. What is perfect for me cannot necessarily be perfect for others. We
strive for different things. The ox strives for grass, I strive for meat, the
malaria pathogen strives for my blood; the result chaos.
As we all seem to have experience and knowledge of what
happiness/love/beauty and all the rest of it is, then this experience surely
is proof that we did once live in a state of perfection and it was lost
rather than that we have never known it.
To some in the world, the slaying of Christians is utter perfection beauty and
bliss. For me it is the simulataneaous orgasm. It is not only foolish to
suggest that we once lived in perfaction, it is counter to all evidence -
thankfully!!!
The Bible (if you believe that) states that Paradise was lost by eating an
apple which gave man the knowledge of good and evil and also made man aware
of their nakedness. Nakedness could not only mean physical nakedness, but
the nakedness of ignorance.
The question really is - what happened? Surely with the intelligence and
questioning of man, the apple story is symbolic and I really don't think
that disobedience was the problem.
In my humble opinion, the key thing for a state of Paradise would be Trust.
To be anywhere, to do anything, to never have any fear, to never be afraid
of being laughed at or humiliated or hurt - I am quite convinced that it was
Trust that was somehow broken or lost.
How, or where, or when, or why - when you consider time, time that has been
for ever before now..... why was this Trust lost? Something must have
caused the dissent and bad feeling, an iota of which would have been felt
hundreds of years before it happened in a place like Paradise where every
speck of dust is counted and every leaf falls with a purpose.
Is it possible to regain Paradise?
We shall have to see.
End of Part 1
I trust that most people that read this will bring you down to reality.
.
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| User: "block" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 04:27:22 AM |
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"Chzwmn" <chzwmn@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040924213721.23163.00000998@mb-m12.aol.com...
I trust that most people that read this will bring you down to reality.
What? And end up being a ***** like you?
NO THANKS!!!!
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 03:00:18 PM |
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The situation is meaningless. Similar to the
meaninglessness in a cockroach colony, under a rock.
It is thus arbitrary. Including the arbitrariness of
whatever stories we practice. We humans, in our
insanities, need our stories, our meaning giving
stories.
Thank you for sharing some of your stories.
We are not "important" enough for "wrongness"
to apply. We are meaningless, like the cockroaches.
Breeding and confabulating.
There may be a meaningful context, but all we can know
are our stories. We are probably only meaningless
sentient crud. (with hubris)
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill/
*************************
Phrase of the week :
As I've Matured, I've learned that :
you cannot make someone love you. All you can do is stalk them and hope they panic and give in... ;
one good turn gets most of the blankets;
no matter how much I care, some people are just jerks;
it takes years to build up trust, and it only takes suspicion, not proof, to destroy it;
whatever hits the fan will not be evenly dispersed;
you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you think;
depression is merely anger without enthusiasm;
you can keep vomiting long after you think you're finished;
age is a very high price to pay for maturity;
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it;
we are responsible for what we do, unless we are celebrities;
artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity;
the people you care most about in life are taken from you
too soon and all the less important ones just never go away.
:-))))Snort!)
*************************
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| User: "block" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 03:29:44 PM |
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"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:41547CD2.54D4D995@fuzzysys.com...
The situation is meaningless. Similar to the
meaninglessness in a cockroach colony, under a rock.
It is thus arbitrary. Including the arbitrariness of
whatever stories we practice. We humans, in our
insanities, need our stories, our meaning giving
stories.
Thank you for sharing some of your stories.
We are not "important" enough for "wrongness"
to apply. We are meaningless, like the cockroaches.
Breeding and confabulating.
There may be a meaningful context, but all we can know
are our stories. We are probably only meaningless
sentient crud. (with hubris)
--
No, I don't believe that. I think man is very meaningful, and yet I believe
that birds, dolphins, fish, horses - all have their own unique
intelligence/collective. Maybe it is just the turn of man to become aware
and to try and understand how they fit into the grand scheme of things and
their place in the hierarchy and their own unique understanding of all that
is around and within.
You say hubris - pride is a crucial aspect of human nature. It is pride
that prevents a man crying in public, it is pride that makes man detest
humiliation and ultimately I am quite sure that pride will play a large part
in man's relationship to whatever or whoever is out there.
It's a never ending story............it has to be...............this is just
part of it.
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| User: "Chzwmn" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 08:40:44 PM |
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"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:41547CD2.54D4D995@fuzzysys.com...
The situation is meaningless. Similar to the
meaninglessness in a cockroach colony, under a rock.
It is thus arbitrary. Including the arbitrariness of
whatever stories we practice. We humans, in our
insanities, need our stories, our meaning giving
stories.
Thank you for sharing some of your stories.
We are not "important" enough for "wrongness"
to apply. We are meaningless, like the cockroaches.
Breeding and confabulating.
There may be a meaningful context, but all we can know
are our stories. We are probably only meaningless
sentient crud. (with hubris)
--
No, I don't believe that. I think man is very meaningful, and yet I believe
that birds, dolphins, fish, horses - all have their own unique
intelligence/collective. Maybe it is just the turn of man to become aware
and to try and understand how they fit into the grand scheme of things and
their place in the hierarchy and their own unique understanding of all that
is around and within.
You say hubris - pride is a crucial aspect of human nature. It is pride
that prevents a man crying in public, it is pride that makes man detest
humiliation and ultimately I am quite sure that pride will play a large part
in man's relationship to whatever or whoever is out there.
It's a never ending story............it has to be...............this is just
part of it.
Bring on the men with the straight jackets and the trolly (trundle..trundle..)
.
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| User: "block" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 04:37:40 AM |
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"Chzwmn" <chzwmn@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040924214044.23163.00001000@mb-m12.aol.com...
Bring on the men with the straight jackets and the trolly
(trundle..trundle..)
I have made no secret on this newsgroup of the fact that I am insane, but no
one else so far has resorted to underhand bitchy remarks like this.
I take it you are female+American?
The worst combination!!!
.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 07:11:27 AM |
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block wrote:
...
No, I don't believe that.
You want to believe that.
Why do you want that life has a deeper meaning?
Isn't it enough that we are here now and that we can live without the
pressure of a higher goal we have to follow?
Instead of searching for the grand scheme you could simply live and be
happy.
...
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| User: "Tim" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 07:22:11 PM |
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"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:41547CD2.54D4D995@fuzzysys.com...
The situation is meaningless. Similar to the
meaninglessness in a cockroach colony, under a rock.
It is thus arbitrary. Including the arbitrariness of
whatever stories we practice. We humans, in our
insanities, need our stories, our meaning giving
stories.
Thank you for sharing some of your stories.
We are not "important" enough for "wrongness"
to apply. We are meaningless, like the cockroaches.
Breeding and confabulating.
There may be a meaningful context, but all we can know
are our stories. We are probably only meaningless
sentient crud. (with hubris)
Sentient crud - nice one - reminds me of Schopenhauer.
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill/
*************************
Phrase of the week :
As I've Matured, I've learned that :
you cannot make someone love you. All you can do is stalk them and hope
they panic and give in... ;
one good turn gets most of the blankets;
no matter how much I care, some people are just jerks;
it takes years to build up trust, and it only takes suspicion, not proof,
to destroy it;
whatever hits the fan will not be evenly dispersed;
you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than
you think;
depression is merely anger without enthusiasm;
you can keep vomiting long after you think you're finished;
age is a very high price to pay for maturity;
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it;
we are responsible for what we do, unless we are celebrities;
artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity;
the people you care most about in life are taken from you
too soon and all the less important ones just never go away.
:-))))Snort!)
*************************
.
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| User: "ChickenHawk" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 05:00:42 PM |
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"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:41547CD2.54D4D995@fuzzysys.com...
The situation is meaningless. Similar to the
meaninglessness in a cockroach colony, under a rock.
It is thus arbitrary. Including the arbitrariness of
whatever stories we practice. We humans, in our
insanities, need our stories, our meaning giving
stories.
Thank you for sharing some of your stories.
We are not "important" enough for "wrongness"
to apply. We are meaningless, like the cockroaches.
Breeding and confabulating.
There may be a meaningful context, but all we can know
are our stories. We are probably only meaningless
sentient crud. (with hubris)
Whoa There! We are not all Repugliars!
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill/
*************************
Phrase of the week :
As I've Matured, I've learned that :
you cannot make someone love you. All you can do is stalk them and hope
they panic and give in... ;
one good turn gets most of the blankets;
no matter how much I care, some people are just jerks;
it takes years to build up trust, and it only takes suspicion, not proof,
to destroy it;
whatever hits the fan will not be evenly dispersed;
you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than
you think;
depression is merely anger without enthusiasm;
you can keep vomiting long after you think you're finished;
age is a very high price to pay for maturity;
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it;
we are responsible for what we do, unless we are celebrities;
artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity;
the people you care most about in life are taken from you
too soon and all the less important ones just never go away.
:-))))Snort!)
*************************
.
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 05:27:25 PM |
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ChickenHawk wrote:
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:41547CD2.54D4D995@fuzzysys.com...
The situation is meaningless. Similar to the
meaninglessness in a cockroach colony, under a rock.
It is thus arbitrary. Including the arbitrariness of
whatever stories we practice. We humans, in our
insanities, need our stories, our meaning giving
stories.
Thank you for sharing some of your stories.
We are not "important" enough for "wrongness"
to apply. We are meaningless, like the cockroaches.
Breeding and confabulating.
There may be a meaningful context, but all we can know
are our stories. We are probably only meaningless
sentient crud. (with hubris)
Whoa There! We are not all Repugliars!
And thank you for one of your practiced stories.
.
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| User: "ChickenHawk" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 05:40:23 PM |
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"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:41549F4C.B1932659@fuzzysys.com...
ChickenHawk wrote:
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:41547CD2.54D4D995@fuzzysys.com...
The situation is meaningless. Similar to the
meaninglessness in a cockroach colony, under a rock.
It is thus arbitrary. Including the arbitrariness of
whatever stories we practice. We humans, in our
insanities, need our stories, our meaning giving
stories.
Thank you for sharing some of your stories.
We are not "important" enough for "wrongness"
to apply. We are meaningless, like the cockroaches.
Breeding and confabulating.
There may be a meaningful context, but all we can know
are our stories. We are probably only meaningless
sentient crud. (with hubris)
Whoa There! We are not all Repugliars!
And thank you for one of your practiced stories.
Don't underestimate practice.
.
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| User: "Chzwmn" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 08:39:08 PM |
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Meaning giving stories (scratch)..................Meaning giving stories
(scratch)...................Meaning giving stories
(scratch)..............Meaning giving stories (scratch).........Meaning giving
stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories
scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories
scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories Meaning
giving stories scratch).>scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning
giving stories Meaning giving stories scratch).>scratch).>Meaning giving
stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories
scratch).>Meaning giving stories Meaning giving stories scratch).>scratch).>
The situation is meaningless. Similar to the
meaninglessness in a cockroach colony, under a rock.
It is thus arbitrary. Including the arbitrariness of
whatever stories we practice. We humans, in our
insanities, need our stories, our meaning giving
stories.
Thank you for sharing some of your stories.
We are not "important" enough for "wrongness"
to apply. We are meaningless, like the cockroaches.
Breeding and confabulating.
There may be a meaningful context, but all we can know
are our stories. We are probably only meaningless
sentient crud. (with hubris)
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill@fuzzysys.com
http://www.fuzzysys.com
http://members.cox.net/fmmcneill/
*************************
Phrase of the week :
As I've Matured, I've learned that :
you cannot make someone love you. All you can do is stalk them and hope they
panic and give in... ;
one good turn gets most of the blankets;
no matter how much I care, some people are just jerks;
it takes years to build up trust, and it only takes suspicion, not proof, to
destroy it;
whatever hits the fan will not be evenly dispersed;
you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you
think;
depression is merely anger without enthusiasm;
you can keep vomiting long after you think you're finished;
age is a very high price to pay for maturity;
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it;
we are responsible for what we do, unless we are celebrities;
artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity;
the people you care most about in life are taken from you
too soon and all the less important ones just never go away.
:-))))Snort!)
*************************
.
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
24 Sep 2004 11:13:18 PM |
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Chzwmn wrote:
Meaning giving stories (scratch)..................Meaning giving stories
(scratch)...................Meaning giving stories
(scratch)..............Meaning giving stories (scratch).........Meaning giving
stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories
scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories
scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories Meaning
giving stories scratch).>scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning
giving stories Meaning giving stories scratch).>scratch).>Meaning giving
stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories scratch).>Meaning giving stories
scratch).>Meaning giving stories Meaning giving stories scratch).>scratch).>
Bereft?
.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 07:05:20 AM |
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block wrote:
I think as one simple fact, we must all accept, that somewhere in the past,
in the infinity of time that came before "now", something went wrong.
Surely we all strive for the same things - and the fact that all is not
perfection right now means that either perfection never existed, and we have
always striven for perfection, or that once upon a time there was perfection
and it was lost.
While I don't think we all strive for the same things I'd generally agree.
As we all seem to have experience and knowledge of what
happiness/love/beauty and all the rest of it is, then this experience surely
is proof that we did once live in a state of perfection and it was lost
rather than that we have never known it.
Not at all: At least I don't have experience and knowledge of what
perfection is.
Besides that our impression of what we want to reach might simply be an
utopian idea - something we want to reach while knowing it doesn't exist
in reality.
The Bible (if you believe that) states that Paradise was lost by eating an
apple which gave man the knowledge of good and evil and also made man aware
of their nakedness. Nakedness could not only mean physical nakedness, but
the nakedness of ignorance.
Not sure about that: Writers of Bible had their own goals they were
following when writing that book.
The question really is - what happened? Surely with the intelligence and
questioning of man, the apple story is symbolic and I really don't think
that disobedience was the problem.
This is what Christian exegesis tells.
More likely the authors of Bible wanted to show their people that
disobedience is wrong. Don't forget that they were working for the
leaders of a theocracy.
In my humble opinion, the key thing for a state of Paradise would be Trust.
To be anywhere, to do anything, to never have any fear, to never be afraid
of being laughed at or humiliated or hurt - I am quite convinced that it was
Trust that was somehow broken or lost.
Once again I beg to differ: Loss of trust comes from living in a world
where trust is dangerous.
How, or where, or when, or why - when you consider time, time that has been
for ever before now..... why was this Trust lost? Something must have
caused the dissent and bad feeling, an iota of which would have been felt
hundreds of years before it happened in a place like Paradise where every
speck of dust is counted and every leaf falls with a purpose.
I'd say that distrust is the normal state of mind. Trust works only
within a group and even there only to some degree.
Is it possible to regain Paradise?
Not likely. Indeed not likely it ever existed.
We shall have to see.
End of Part 1
Looking forward to part 2.
.
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| User: "block" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 02:22:54 PM |
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"AE" <hidden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cj3n1f$bqt$05$1@news.t-online.com...
Looking forward to part 2.
Part 2
(With no regard to sanity)
Money is in the heart of the ruling classes. This is because radiators
don't work unless there is enough gas or electricity or water or SHOCK
treatment to cause the reaction required within the scope of possible
reasoning (including time scale). This anti-matter/matter reaction is the
same in the entire Universe - look at Jupiter, you will notice it is not as
big as you think if you think it is not a colour but a cloud!!!
You see gasses and matter will never behold the reasoning state, because to
have a reasoning state you have to see what there is inside the art of
writing, which in itself is nothing like "nouveau art".
They use saucepans as art these days, you might say what for? Well in the
Tate hangs a painting that will give you what for, because in the colours
you will see fragments of something that will always intertwine everything
within a balance or scales that always match because what are we weighing?
Balloons and hot air, what really is it that is what it is when it isn't
(when it's at home)?
Do you think he fired that arrow
To miss the apple
Or what?
Archers archers out in the garden
Looking for a figure of time
When all they got, was not a lot
Just a Nursery Rhyme
Seriously in the quota of modern life, inventions and capacity for thought
are mere turnstiles (seeing as there are no longer any records) capacity for
music in the scales of modern day society is weighed as feathers - which we
know of course are not as light as helium, gas having (of course) no
properties of that kind.
Lightness can be seen in spectrums, often coloured, shadows are dark because
horses and others creatures of intelligence have a strange understanding
that can be seen in the nature of simple things like geese and ducks.
WALK IN THE SHADOW of death and be fearful of STONE! Stone being a cold
substance in tabernacles where choirs sing holy chorus in time - where do we
measure time in places where time continues still to this day, in trees, in
grasses, and like I said in the nature of simple things like ducks and
geese.
Golden threads spin endlessly in time - because the spinning wheel sits,
ever sits, the blood is with us still of a damp chamber somewhere that
echoes in what never existed anyway.
So there!
I'll write a more sensible answer later.
.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 03:15:01 PM |
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block wrote:
...
Part 2
(With no regard to sanity)
Money is in the heart of the ruling classes. This is because radiators
don't work unless there is enough gas or electricity ...
There's an important difference between money and lots of money:
I do understand that people are earning enough money to live - even to
add some luxury. But then things seem to get out of control and people
want to get more and more. Surely there's some addiction to the luxury
and even more to the power money represents, but there's as well a
self-desctructive component: Many people are spending too much precious
lifetime they could spend in a much more joyful way to earn money they
don't need.
.
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| User: "Bobs Boyfriend" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 06:24:05 PM |
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In article <cj4jnj$rli$04$1@news.t-online.com>, AE <hidden@nospam.com>
wrote:
block wrote:
...
Part 2
(With no regard to sanity)
Money is in the heart of the ruling classes. This is because radiators
don't work unless there is enough gas or electricity ...
There's an important difference between money and lots of money:
I do understand that people are earning enough money to live - even to
add some luxury. But then things seem to get out of control and people
want to get more and more. Surely there's some addiction to the luxury
and even more to the power money represents, but there's as well a
self-desctructive component: Many people are spending too much precious
lifetime they could spend in a much more joyful way to earn money they
don't need.
Perhaps. However, if I can convince you that greed is a "bad" thing
then, that would certainly leave more for me to enjoy.
.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
26 Sep 2004 12:51:29 PM |
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Bob's Boyfriend wrote:
AE wrote:
block wrote:
...
Part 2
(With no regard to sanity)
Money is in the heart of the ruling classes. This is because radiators
don't work unless there is enough gas or electricity ...
There's an important difference between money and lots of money:
I do understand that people are earning enough money to live - even to
add some luxury. But then things seem to get out of control and people
want to get more and more. Surely there's some addiction to the luxury
and even more to the power money represents, but there's as well a
self-desctructive component: Many people are spending too much precious
lifetime they could spend in a much more joyful way to earn money they
don't need.
Perhaps. However, if I can convince you that greed is a "bad" thing
then, that would certainly leave more for me to enjoy.
Me not wanting it doesn't mean you getting it.
.
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| User: "Bobs Boyfriend" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
26 Sep 2004 01:33:23 PM |
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In article <cj6vmf$dku$00$2@news.t-online.com>, AE <hidden@nospam.com>
wrote:
Bob's Boyfriend wrote:
AE wrote:
block wrote:
...
Part 2
(With no regard to sanity)
Money is in the heart of the ruling classes. This is because radiators
don't work unless there is enough gas or electricity ...
There's an important difference between money and lots of money:
I do understand that people are earning enough money to live - even to
add some luxury. But then things seem to get out of control and people
want to get more and more. Surely there's some addiction to the luxury
and even more to the power money represents, but there's as well a
self-desctructive component: Many people are spending too much precious
lifetime they could spend in a much more joyful way to earn money they
don't need.
Perhaps. However, if I can convince you that greed is a "bad" thing
then, that would certainly leave more for me to enjoy.
Me not wanting it doesn't mean you getting it.
It certainly helps though. Convincing you that greed is a bad thing
encourages you to avoid attaining those things. Therefore, competition
is reduced.
.
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| User: "block" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 03:50:48 PM |
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"AE" <hidden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cj3n1f$bqt$05$1@news.t-online.com...
While I don't think we all strive for the same things I'd generally agree.
I think deep down inside we all strive for the same things, freedom from
pain, freedom from suffering. Some kind of Utopia where we experience joy.
Somewhere where we feel we belong and all the rest of it................
Not at all: At least I don't have experience and knowledge of what
perfection is.
Not so much what perfection is, but what your perfection is. You must have
taste. You know what kind of music you like, what kind of art you like,
whether you like sunny weather or rainy weather. You have your own
knowledge of what pleases you and makes you happy, and to you, surely, if
you achieved all those things, then that, for the moment, would be
perfection.
Besides that our impression of what we want to reach might simply be an
utopian idea - something we want to reach while knowing it doesn't exist
in reality.
Why not? What is the point of survival, or striving, or even trying unless
we hope to better things?
Once again I beg to differ: Loss of trust comes from living in a world
where trust is dangerous.
And so does cynicism. Is that what you want?
I'd say that distrust is the normal state of mind. Trust works only
within a group and even there only to some degree.
In my opinion, not at all. Trust is a two sided thing, if you mistrust, you
will be mistrusted, but if you trust, you are far more likely to be trusted
and this generates trust, and this is contagious.
Not likely. Indeed not likely it ever existed.
Maybe not yet, maybe not in the form we would like it to take.
.
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| User: "Bobs Boyfriend" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 06:48:53 PM |
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In article <ISk5d.3376$lW2.1361@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
"block" <block@space.com> wrote:
"AE" <hidden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cj3n1f$bqt$05$1@news.t-online.com...
While I don't think we all strive for the same things I'd generally agree.
I think deep down inside we all strive for the same things, freedom from
pain, freedom from suffering. Some kind of Utopia where we experience joy.
Somewhere where we feel we belong and all the rest of it................
Not at all: At least I don't have experience and knowledge of what
perfection is.
Not so much what perfection is, but what your perfection is. You must have
taste. You know what kind of music you like, what kind of art you like,
whether you like sunny weather or rainy weather. You have your own
knowledge of what pleases you and makes you happy, and to you, surely, if
you achieved all those things, then that, for the moment, would be
perfection.
You've described pleasure or joy. Perfection is defined generally as
that which is flawless. To connect the two points, your definition of
perfection is to experience pleasure or joy. The attainment of this
perfection is problematic.
For us, listening to our favourite music or rereading a favourite book
might provide that perfection (joy). For the drug addict, the last line
of coke or injection of heroin might do the same. For the prostitute, it
might be having that extra money. For the convict it might be in
exacting revenge.
Besides that our impression of what we want to reach might simply be an
utopian idea - something we want to reach while knowing it doesn't exist
in reality.
Why not? What is the point of survival, or striving, or even trying unless
we hope to better things?
How about accepting things? How about changing one's perceptions of what
exists versus categorizing them as less than better and in need of
improvement.
Once again I beg to differ: Loss of trust comes from living in a world
where trust is dangerous.
And so does cynicism. Is that what you want?
I'd say that distrust is the normal state of mind. Trust works only
within a group and even there only to some degree.
In my opinion, not at all. Trust is a two sided thing, if you mistrust, you
will be mistrusted, but if you trust, you are far more likely to be trusted
and this generates trust, and this is contagious.
Children are trusting and are still disadvantaged. Children are trusting
and still harmed. The contagion effect is a falsity based on religious
effects within th culture.
Not likely. Indeed not likely it ever existed.
Maybe not yet, maybe not in the form we would like it to take.
.
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| User: "block" |
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| Title: Re: Wrong |
26 Sep 2004 06:39:22 AM |
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"Bob's Boyfriend" <together@wyoming.com> wrote in message
news:together-B6FA5F.19485325092004@news.isp.giganews.com...
You've described pleasure or joy. Perfection is defined generally as
that which is flawless. To connect the two points, your definition of
perfection is to experience pleasure or joy. The attainment of this
perfection is problematic.
It is easy if you look for simple things rather than some ginormous
collective orgasm of bliss that caused the Big Bang.
For us, listening to our favourite music or rereading a favourite book
might provide that perfection (joy). For the drug addict, the last line
of coke or injection of heroin might do the same. For the prostitute, it
might be having that extra money. For the convict it might be in
exacting revenge.
Yes to the first. For the drug addict, something to replace what they are
addicted to that is everlasting and brings no ill effects and is free, for
the prostitute it would most possibly be love and for the convict it would
no doubt be the anihilation of planet earth. All good. And as for the
last, I have never seen anything wrong with anger. It's this "turn the
other cheek" they talk about that I can't come to terms with. "Oh excuse me
sir, you have just raped my daughter and (as per the Bible) would you like
to do it again?" That is one thing in the Bible that sticks with me that I
just cannot come to terms with. If someone slaps me round the face, to be
sure they certainly don't do it twice.
How about accepting things? How about changing one's perceptions of what
exists versus categorizing them as less than better and in need of
improvement.
Accepting imprisonment? Accepting hunger? Accepting pain? It all depends
on your circumstances as to whether you are prepared to accept them or not.
Come on, to us lot even a chipped tooth isn't acceptable.
.
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| User: "Bobs Boyfriend" |
|
| Title: Re: Wrong |
26 Sep 2004 11:26:19 AM |
|
|
In article <KTx5d.345$Ue2.95@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
"block" <block@space.com> wrote:
"Bob's Boyfriend" <together@wyoming.com> wrote in message
news:together-B6FA5F.19485325092004@news.isp.giganews.com...
You've described pleasure or joy. Perfection is defined generally as
that which is flawless. To connect the two points, your definition of
perfection is to experience pleasure or joy. The attainment of this
perfection is problematic.
It is easy if you look for simple things rather than some ginormous
collective orgasm of bliss that caused the Big Bang.
For us, listening to our favourite music or rereading a favourite book
might provide that perfection (joy). For the drug addict, the last line
of coke or injection of heroin might do the same. For the prostitute, it
might be having that extra money. For the convict it might be in
exacting revenge.
Yes to the first. For the drug addict, something to replace what they are
addicted to that is everlasting and brings no ill effects and is free, for
the prostitute it would most possibly be love and for the convict it would
no doubt be the anihilation of planet earth. All good. And as for the
last, I have never seen anything wrong with anger. It's this "turn the
other cheek" they talk about that I can't come to terms with. "Oh excuse me
sir, you have just raped my daughter and (as per the Bible) would you like
to do it again?" That is one thing in the Bible that sticks with me that I
just cannot come to terms with. If someone slaps me round the face, to be
sure they certainly don't do it twice.
How about accepting things? How about changing one's perceptions of what
exists versus categorizing them as less than better and in need of
improvement.
Accepting imprisonment? Accepting hunger? Accepting pain? It all depends
on your circumstances as to whether you are prepared to accept them or not.
Come on, to us lot even a chipped tooth isn't acceptable.
To be honest, I have no idea what you're writing about.
.
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| User: "Keynes" |
|
| Title: Re: Wrong |
26 Sep 2004 02:52:01 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:39:22 GMT, "block" <block@space.com> wrote:
"Bob's Boyfriend" <together@wyoming.com> wrote in message
news:together-B6FA5F.19485325092004@news.isp.giganews.com...
You've described pleasure or joy. Perfection is defined generally as
that which is flawless. To connect the two points, your definition of
perfection is to experience pleasure or joy. The attainment of this
perfection is problematic.
It is easy if you look for simple things rather than some ginormous
collective orgasm of bliss that caused the Big Bang.
For us, listening to our favourite music or rereading a favourite book
might provide that perfection (joy). For the drug addict, the last line
of coke or injection of heroin might do the same. For the prostitute, it
might be having that extra money. For the convict it might be in
exacting revenge.
Yes to the first. For the drug addict, something to replace what they are
addicted to that is everlasting and brings no ill effects and is free, for
the prostitute it would most possibly be love and for the convict it would
no doubt be the anihilation of planet earth. All good. And as for the
last, I have never seen anything wrong with anger. It's this "turn the
other cheek" they talk about that I can't come to terms with. "Oh excuse me
sir, you have just raped my daughter and (as per the Bible) would you like
to do it again?" That is one thing in the Bible that sticks with me that I
just cannot come to terms with. If someone slaps me round the face, to be
sure they certainly don't do it twice.
How about accepting things? How about changing one's perceptions of what
exists versus categorizing them as less than better and in need of
improvement.
Accepting imprisonment? Accepting hunger? Accepting pain? It all depends
on your circumstances as to whether you are prepared to accept them or not.
Come on, to us lot even a chipped tooth isn't acceptable.
Self protection is natural, but we tend to overdo it just like
everything else. Then we have preemptive aggression on
the suspicion that our enemy would like to get us first.
How smart is that?
Forgiving enemies is to forgive oneself. Hate is not a pleasant
companion. And it leads to rash escalation bringing even more
troubles than we had before.
Nursing hatred and seeking revenge blackens one's life, taking
it over without leaving any room for more pleasant things.
Force is considered the supreme weapon, but it can only increase
opposition, and never end it. A better weapon is non-violence.
Ghandi and ML King could never have won by force.
America's greatest weapon was our ideals of freedom and justice.
By these we conquored the whole world, including the soviets.
But now the USA has thrown away it's ultimate weapon in
favor of a counter-productive course of mere naked force.
All the world turns against us now. What a pity.
On a personal level, a minimum of force in self defense might
be alright, if one could stop there. After the fact, to forget is
to forgive. Really quite refreshing to sweep out the clutter.
.
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| User: "Bobs Boyfriend" |
|
| Title: Re: Wrong |
26 Sep 2004 02:57:18 PM |
|
|
In article <3i6el0l3kcr5km8do2kkvefpk6bre8hh5n@4ax.com>,
Keynes <Keynes@earthlinkspam.net> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:39:22 GMT, "block" <block@space.com> wrote:
"Bob's Boyfriend" <together@wyoming.com> wrote in message
news:together-B6FA5F.19485325092004@news.isp.giganews.com...
You've described pleasure or joy. Perfection is defined generally as
that which is flawless. To connect the two points, your definition of
perfection is to experience pleasure or joy. The attainment of this
perfection is problematic.
It is easy if you look for simple things rather than some ginormous
collective orgasm of bliss that caused the Big Bang.
For us, listening to our favourite music or rereading a favourite book
might provide that perfection (joy). For the drug addict, the last line
of coke or injection of heroin might do the same. For the prostitute, it
might be having that extra money. For the convict it might be in
exacting revenge.
Yes to the first. For the drug addict, something to replace what they are
addicted to that is everlasting and brings no ill effects and is free, for
the prostitute it would most possibly be love and for the convict it would
no doubt be the anihilation of planet earth. All good. And as for the
last, I have never seen anything wrong with anger. It's this "turn the
other cheek" they talk about that I can't come to terms with. "Oh excuse me
sir, you have just raped my daughter and (as per the Bible) would you like
to do it again?" That is one thing in the Bible that sticks with me that I
just cannot come to terms with. If someone slaps me round the face, to be
sure they certainly don't do it twice.
How about accepting things? How about changing one's perceptions of what
exists versus categorizing them as less than better and in need of
improvement.
Accepting imprisonment? Accepting hunger? Accepting pain? It all depends
on your circumstances as to whether you are prepared to accept them or not.
Come on, to us lot even a chipped tooth isn't acceptable.
Self protection is natural, but we tend to overdo it just like
everything else. Then we have preemptive aggression on
the suspicion that our enemy would like to get us first.
How smart is that?
Forgiving enemies is to forgive oneself. Hate is not a pleasant
companion. And it leads to rash escalation bringing even more
troubles than we had before.
Nursing hatred and seeking revenge blackens one's life, taking
it over without leaving any room for more pleasant things.
Force is considered the supreme weapon, but it can only increase
opposition, and never end it. A better weapon is non-violence.
Ghandi and ML King could never have won by force.
Both are dead. What did they win? Both died at the hands of others.
America's greatest weapon was our ideals of freedom and justice.
By these we conquored the whole world, including the soviets.
But now the USA has thrown away it's ultimate weapon in
favor of a counter-productive course of mere naked force.
All the world turns against us now. What a pity.
On a personal level, a minimum of force in self defense might
be alright, if one could stop there. After the fact, to forget is
to forgive. Really quite refreshing to sweep out the clutter.
.
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| User: "Bobs Boyfriend" |
|
| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 01:34:55 PM |
|
|
In article <cj3n1f$bqt$05$1@news.t-online.com>, AE <hidden@nospam.com>
wrote:
block wrote:
I think as one simple fact, we must all accept, that somewhere in the past,
in the infinity of time that came before "now", something went wrong.
Surely we all strive for the same things - and the fact that all is not
perfection right now means that either perfection never existed, and we have
always striven for perfection, or that once upon a time there was perfection
and it was lost.
While I don't think we all strive for the same things I'd generally agree.
As we all seem to have experience and knowledge of what
happiness/love/beauty and all the rest of it is, then this experience surely
is proof that we did once live in a state of perfection and it was lost
rather than that we have never known it.
Not at all: At least I don't have experience and knowledge of what
perfection is.
As an atheist, this is my difficulty. Gods are deemed perfect in a
number of respects. I am human and by definition imperfect. How does the
imperfect define what is perfect?
Besides that our impression of what we want to reach might simply be an
utopian idea - something we want to reach while knowing it doesn't exist
in reality.
The Bible (if you believe that) states that Paradise was lost by eating an
apple which gave man the knowledge of good and evil and also made man aware
of their nakedness. Nakedness could not only mean physical nakedness, but
the nakedness of ignorance.
Not sure about that: Writers of Bible had their own goals they were
following when writing that book.
The question really is - what happened? Surely with the intelligence and
questioning of man, the apple story is symbolic and I really don't think
that disobedience was the problem.
This is what Christian exegesis tells.
More likely the authors of Bible wanted to show their people that
disobedience is wrong. Don't forget that they were working for the
leaders of a theocracy.
In my humble opinion, the key thing for a state of Paradise would be Trust.
To be anywhere, to do anything, to never have any fear, to never be afraid
of being laughed at or humiliated or hurt - I am quite convinced that it was
Trust that was somehow broken or lost.
Once again I beg to differ: Loss of trust comes from living in a world
where trust is dangerous.
How, or where, or when, or why - when you consider time, time that has been
for ever before now..... why was this Trust lost? Something must have
caused the dissent and bad feeling, an iota of which would have been felt
hundreds of years before it happened in a place like Paradise where every
speck of dust is counted and every leaf falls with a purpose.
I'd say that distrust is the normal state of mind. Trust works only
within a group and even there only to some degree.
Is it possible to regain Paradise?
Not likely. Indeed not likely it ever existed.
We shall have to see.
End of Part 1
Looking forward to part 2.
.
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| User: "block" |
|
| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 03:32:49 PM |
|
|
"Bob's Boyfriend" <together@wyoming.com> wrote in message
news:together-58CB94.14345525092004@news.isp.giganews.com...
As an atheist, this is my difficulty. Gods are deemed perfect in a
number of respects. I am human and by definition imperfect. How does the
imperfect define what is perfect?
Before you seek perfection, think on "Can you improve on perfection?".
What if perfection is the very basest level to what we can aspire to?
Rather like seeking the impossible
"The impossible is difficult, the difficult takes a bit longer".
These words all sum up a state, a meaning, something that we "think" we
aspire to - but perfection - can it be improved on?
.
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| User: "Bobs Boyfriend" |
|
| Title: Re: Wrong |
25 Sep 2004 06:42:44 PM |
|
|
In article <RBk5d.3260$lW2.1103@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net>,
"block" <block@space.com> wrote:
"Bob's Boyfriend" <together@wyoming.com> wrote in message
news:together-58CB94.14345525092004@news.isp.giganews.com...
As an atheist, this is my difficulty. Gods are deemed perfect in a
number of respects. I am human and by definition imperfect. How does the
imperfect define what is perfect?
Before you seek perfection, think on "Can you improve on perfection?".
Same problem. Your question presumes that I, as an imperfect human can
conceptualize perfection or an improvement on perferction.
What if perfection is the very basest level to what we can aspire to?
The presupposes that perfection, again, is known. Perfection has yet to
be defined.
Rather like seeking the impossible
"The impossible is difficult, the difficult takes a bit longer".
These words all sum up a state, a meaning, something that we "think" we
aspire to - but perfection - can it be improved on?
.
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