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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "galathaea"
Date: 11 Feb 2004 10:18:07 AM
Object: :: more focus on the constructive discussion
I thought it might be useful to post more references and reorganise
into more focused questions. I appologise for the more playful first
post. It's sometimes hard for me to put aside creativity for more
formality.
There are Heyting algebras in a lot of fields. They are one of the
more useful logical forms for our models in these fields.
In the study of cognitive research we have models of neural
interaction, and many experiments match well to the models. There is
a school of thought that says concepts are attractors in the neural
models dynamics. This allows us to pose dynamical propositions in the
neural models. The propositional structure would then likely be
Heyting in such a model.
"Neural organisation: structure, function, and dynamics" by Arbib,
Erdi, and Szentogathai
"The algebraic structure of sets of regions" by Stell and Worboys
"A canonical model of the region-connection calculus" by Jochen Renz
"A relation-algebraic approach to the region-connection calculus" by
Duntsch, Wang, and McCloskey
Interestingly, there are also very similar things found in the logical
study of the way we reason about the world.
"How logic emerges from the dynamics of information" by Peter
Gardenfors
"Bimodal logics for reasoning about continuous dynamics" by Davoren
and Gore
"Categorical and Kripke semantics for constructive S4 modal logic" by
Alechina, Mendler, de Paiva, and Ritter
"The algebra of topology" by Tarski and McKinsey
"Sentential calculus and topology" by Tarski
And this fits in with a particular history of research in the logics
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-modal/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/model-theory/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_information_theory
which builds the context for the way we reason about the world in
terms that become computable. Its at the point where the models are
able to process the information in the manner of a state machine with
a discrete, directed collection of states (often represented by time)
that languages are formalised. The models become dynamic.
This as well is interesting since the well-known Curry-Howard
isomorphism describes a natural relationship between lambda calculi
and Heyting algebras.
"Lectures on the Curry-Howard isomorphism" by Morten Heine B. Sorensen
and Pawel Urzyczyn
Language and the dynamics of conversations can be modeled by these
automatons.
"Representing communicative intentions in collaborative conversational
agents" by Matthew Stone
"Speech and language processing" by Jurafsky and Martin
"Denotational semantics for agent communication languages" by Frank
Guerin and Jeremy Pitt
"From continuous dynamics to symbols" by Herbert Jaeger
"Attractors in the development of communication" by E. D. de Jong
"Autonomous formation of concepts and communication" by E. de Jong
And when you look at the computational ability of our models of brain
activity
"On the computational power of neural nets" by Siegelmann and Sontag
we see an intimate connection forming. This is not meant to affirm a
logical linguistic programme, only to show that there are Heyting
algebras associated to the fields around such a programme from several
different directions, and the theory of computation in particular has
strong foundations in structures that are associated with these
algebras. There are other logics also associated with
turing-completeness
"The Turing-completeness of multimodal categorial grammars" by Bob
Carpenter
which shows that the logical programme of linguistics can arive to
equivalence to lambda calculi from different directions. There are
many interesting relationships between Heyting algebras and other
logics known, such as
"Combining possibilities and negations" by Greg Restall
"A semantical study of orthologics" by Miyazaki Yutaka
"Algebras and frames for modal logics"
And so on...
Now, Heyting algebras are all over the place in mathematics. Besides
the above (which also mentions the classic result of topologies
defining Heyting algebras), there is the general theory of topoi.
"Topoi: the categorial analysis of logic" by Robert Goldblatt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topos
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/topos.html
which shows that the study of mappings between mathematical objects
often occurs in categories that are topoi. All topoi have a natural
Heyting algebra structure.
Many models of our world contain reasoning inside topoi, on objects
that are members topoi and the transformations between them. In
particular, we have evolutionary theories on graphs and digraphs
(which include trees and directed trees)
"A guided tour in the topos of graphs" by Sebastiano Vigna
where we find both topological logics and some proposed connections
with fuzzy logics, both in modeling and the inverse problem
"A general study on genetic fuzzy systems" by Oscar Cordon
"A formulation of fuzzy automata and its application as a model of
learning systems" by Wee and Fu
and we have again Heyting algebras found for the logic of fuzzy sets.
"Lattice of fuzzy sets" by Takashi Mitsuishi and Grzegorz Bancerek
"A natural interpretation of fuzzy sets and fuzzy relations" by Mamoru
Shimoda
So there's seems to be something about abstraction, computational,
evolutionary logics that tend to draw Heyting models. Something
connectional and topological.
And still, we have the wonderful Fotini Markopoulou-Kalamara and her
programme of causal sets and their Heyting structure.
"The internal description of a causal set: What the universe look like
from the inside" by Fotini Markopoulou
"An insider's guide to quantum causal histories" by Fotini Markopoulou
"Dynamics of causal sets" by David Rideout
"Causal sets and frame-valued set theory" by John L. Bell
"Quantum spacetime as a qunatum causal set" by Ioannis Raptis
"Topos theory and consistent histories: the internal logic of the set
of all consistent sets" by C. J. Isham
Which ties itself up nicely with, to me, one of the neatest Heyting
algebra of all, that of the operator projection calculus on a quantum
Hilbert space.
"Operational quantum logic: an overview" by Coecke, Moor, and Wilce
"Quantum logic in intuitionistic perception" by Bob Coecke
"Constructive mathematics and quantum physics" by Douglas Bridges and
Karl Svozil
and of course we now have ties with quantum computing.
"Locality, weak or strong anticipation and quantum computing II:
constructivism with category theory" by Heather and Rossiter
So those are the models I see when I think about Heyting algebras. It
seems to me to have something intimate to do with process. And these
are all quite interesting models, about learning and our symbol
systems, about calculation, evolution, the quantum.
And these particular algebras mentioned are the non-Boolean kind.
Some mathematicians may also be familiar with Goedel algebras (also
Heyting).
http://math.chapman.edu/cgi-bin/structures.pl?Goedel_algebras
So, for the mathematicians, I think the thing that ties it all
together is the theory of realisability. Its a well established field
that, in many ways, works at describing these various relationships
mentioned.
"Realizability: an historical essay" by Jaap van Oosten
Thats pretty much why I wanted to discuss Heyting algebras. Their
beautiful things, and I thought, from my exposure to its ubiquity in
all of these fields, maybe there might be others who had seen at least
a piece of it in their own fields. I thought maybe all the of all the
people out their from the various directions, maybe one or two from
each field would be hanging around the newsgroups. Maybe a few others
not active working on it, but maybe had seen some of the work. This
bibliography is nothing. I didn't want to waste all my time tossing
everything I could together, but just what this presents, and their
bibliographies and new articles referring to them, the numbers of
people working is large. But there is also Carlos Leguizamon and his
programme on the algbraic-relational theory in biological systems.
"Review: the algebraic-relational theory and its applications" by Alba
Zeretsky
with their pseudo-Booleans found in antigen-antibody reactions and
other biological modelings.
Their are many beautiful models with more exotic structures, but
Heyting algebras seem to have this special universality principle that
somehow seems connected to the Church-Turing thesis. So when I
mentioned education in my first post, I thought these algebras would
be the least controversial to put prior to Boolean. It pretty much
fits right there, with fewer defining relations, full computational
ability, potential cognitive primacy. Its useful in all sorts of
evolutionary models. But in some ways, its also a step to a better
education about models in general, and our ability to calculate in
agreemant with our observations.
Because new models come out all the time. Its important to understand
their logical structure to reason correctly within them. And I
thought maybe this might be a good time to start thinking about
teaching some of these connections I mentioned. Nearly all my friends
went through logic classes as prerequisites in their undergraduate
studies, and these never explained anything outside of quantified
classical logic (often without much algebra). And it seems to me that
with just a little restructuring, such a course could include
constructive logic as it builds the axiom set. All of the various
research in many different directions easily provides a large example
set. Interesting new cases come up all the time.
"An information-based theory of conditionals" by Wayne Wobcke
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.

User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: :: more focus on the constructive discussion 11 Feb 2004 07:02:59 PM
"galathaea" <galathaea@excite.com> wrote in message
news:b22ffac3.0402110818.8c56bbe@posting.google.com...

I thought it might be useful to post more references and reorganise
into more focused questions. I appologise for the more playful first
post. It's sometimes hard for me to put aside creativity for more
formality.

There are Heyting algebras in a lot of fields. They are one of the
more useful logical forms for our models in these fields.

In the study of cognitive research we have models of neural
interaction, and many experiments match well to the models. There is
a school of thought that says concepts are attractors in the neural
models dynamics. This allows us to pose dynamical propositions in the
neural models. The propositional structure would then likely be
Heyting in such a model.

"Neural organisation: structure, function, and dynamics" by Arbib,
Erdi, and Szentogathai
"The algebraic structure of sets of regions" by Stell and Worboys
"A canonical model of the region-connection calculus" by Jochen Renz
"A relation-algebraic approach to the region-connection calculus" by
Duntsch, Wang, and McCloskey

Interestingly, there are also very similar things found in the logical
study of the way we reason about the world.

"How logic emerges from the dynamics of information" by Peter
Gardenfors
"Bimodal logics for reasoning about continuous dynamics" by Davoren
and Gore
"Categorical and Kripke semantics for constructive S4 modal logic" by
Alechina, Mendler, de Paiva, and Ritter
"The algebra of topology" by Tarski and McKinsey
"Sentential calculus and topology" by Tarski

And this fits in with a particular history of research in the logics

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-modal/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/model-theory/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_information_theory

which builds the context for the way we reason about the world in
terms that become computable. Its at the point where the models are
able to process the information in the manner of a state machine with
a discrete, directed collection of states (often represented by time)
that languages are formalised. The models become dynamic.

This as well is interesting since the well-known Curry-Howard
isomorphism describes a natural relationship between lambda calculi
and Heyting algebras.

"Lectures on the Curry-Howard isomorphism" by Morten Heine B. Sorensen
and Pawel Urzyczyn

Language and the dynamics of conversations can be modeled by these
automatons.

"Representing communicative intentions in collaborative conversational
agents" by Matthew Stone
"Speech and language processing" by Jurafsky and Martin
"Denotational semantics for agent communication languages" by Frank
Guerin and Jeremy Pitt
"From continuous dynamics to symbols" by Herbert Jaeger
"Attractors in the development of communication" by E. D. de Jong
"Autonomous formation of concepts and communication" by E. de Jong

And when you look at the computational ability of our models of brain
activity

"On the computational power of neural nets" by Siegelmann and Sontag

we see an intimate connection forming. This is not meant to affirm a
logical linguistic programme, only to show that there are Heyting
algebras associated to the fields around such a programme from several
different directions, and the theory of computation in particular has
strong foundations in structures that are associated with these
algebras. There are other logics also associated with
turing-completeness

"The Turing-completeness of multimodal categorial grammars" by Bob
Carpenter

which shows that the logical programme of linguistics can arive to
equivalence to lambda calculi from different directions. There are
many interesting relationships between Heyting algebras and other
logics known, such as

"Combining possibilities and negations" by Greg Restall
"A semantical study of orthologics" by Miyazaki Yutaka
"Algebras and frames for modal logics"

And so on...

Now, Heyting algebras are all over the place in mathematics. Besides
the above (which also mentions the classic result of topologies
defining Heyting algebras), there is the general theory of topoi.

"Topoi: the categorial analysis of logic" by Robert Goldblatt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topos
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/topos.html

which shows that the study of mappings between mathematical objects
often occurs in categories that are topoi. All topoi have a natural
Heyting algebra structure.

Many models of our world contain reasoning inside topoi, on objects
that are members topoi and the transformations between them. In
particular, we have evolutionary theories on graphs and digraphs
(which include trees and directed trees)

"A guided tour in the topos of graphs" by Sebastiano Vigna

where we find both topological logics and some proposed connections
with fuzzy logics, both in modeling and the inverse problem

"A general study on genetic fuzzy systems" by Oscar Cordon
"A formulation of fuzzy automata and its application as a model of
learning systems" by Wee and Fu

and we have again Heyting algebras found for the logic of fuzzy sets.

"Lattice of fuzzy sets" by Takashi Mitsuishi and Grzegorz Bancerek
"A natural interpretation of fuzzy sets and fuzzy relations" by Mamoru
Shimoda

So there's seems to be something about abstraction, computational,
evolutionary logics that tend to draw Heyting models. Something
connectional and topological.

And still, we have the wonderful Fotini Markopoulou-Kalamara and her
programme of causal sets and their Heyting structure.

"The internal description of a causal set: What the universe look like
from the inside" by Fotini Markopoulou
"An insider's guide to quantum causal histories" by Fotini Markopoulou
"Dynamics of causal sets" by David Rideout
"Causal sets and frame-valued set theory" by John L. Bell
"Quantum spacetime as a qunatum causal set" by Ioannis Raptis
"Topos theory and consistent histories: the internal logic of the set
of all consistent sets" by C. J. Isham

Which ties itself up nicely with, to me, one of the neatest Heyting
algebra of all, that of the operator projection calculus on a quantum
Hilbert space.

"Operational quantum logic: an overview" by Coecke, Moor, and Wilce
"Quantum logic in intuitionistic perception" by Bob Coecke
"Constructive mathematics and quantum physics" by Douglas Bridges and
Karl Svozil

and of course we now have ties with quantum computing.

"Locality, weak or strong anticipation and quantum computing II:
constructivism with category theory" by Heather and Rossiter

So those are the models I see when I think about Heyting algebras. It
seems to me to have something intimate to do with process. And these
are all quite interesting models, about learning and our symbol
systems, about calculation, evolution, the quantum.

And these particular algebras mentioned are the non-Boolean kind.

Some mathematicians may also be familiar with Goedel algebras (also
Heyting).

http://math.chapman.edu/cgi-bin/structures.pl?Goedel_algebras

So, for the mathematicians, I think the thing that ties it all
together is the theory of realisability. Its a well established field
that, in many ways, works at describing these various relationships
mentioned.

"Realizability: an historical essay" by Jaap van Oosten

Thats pretty much why I wanted to discuss Heyting algebras. Their
beautiful things, and I thought, from my exposure to its ubiquity in
all of these fields, maybe there might be others who had seen at least
a piece of it in their own fields. I thought maybe all the of all the
people out their from the various directions, maybe one or two from
each field would be hanging around the newsgroups. Maybe a few others
not active working on it, but maybe had seen some of the work. This
bibliography is nothing. I didn't want to waste all my time tossing
everything I could together, but just what this presents, and their
bibliographies and new articles referring to them, the numbers of
people working is large. But there is also Carlos Leguizamon and his
programme on the algbraic-relational theory in biological systems.

"Review: the algebraic-relational theory and its applications" by Alba
Zeretsky

with their pseudo-Booleans found in antigen-antibody reactions and
other biological modelings.

Their are many beautiful models with more exotic structures, but
Heyting algebras seem to have this special universality principle that
somehow seems connected to the Church-Turing thesis. So when I
mentioned education in my first post, I thought these algebras would
be the least controversial to put prior to Boolean. It pretty much
fits right there, with fewer defining relations, full computational
ability, potential cognitive primacy. Its useful in all sorts of
evolutionary models. But in some ways, its also a step to a better
education about models in general, and our ability to calculate in
agreemant with our observations.

Because new models come out all the time. Its important to understand
their logical structure to reason correctly within them. And I
thought maybe this might be a good time to start thinking about
teaching some of these connections I mentioned. Nearly all my friends
went through logic classes as prerequisites in their undergraduate
studies, and these never explained anything outside of quantified
classical logic (often without much algebra). And it seems to me that
with just a little restructuring, such a course could include
constructive logic as it builds the axiom set. All of the various
research in many different directions easily provides a large example
set. Interesting new cases come up all the time.

"An information-based theory of conditionals" by Wayne Wobcke

A++ I say, and ye have pointed the way! Heyting man, you know like SAM, the
***** with the green eggs and ham, you can have anywhere anyway, alway green
and with ham.
http://tinyurl.com/2rmst
Joking here, this is a really good article and I suspect you have the book
part way done? You could kill the market if you could put it all in as
simple speak. Excellent linkage to back up your positions so obscurantism
cannot be claimed.
My question is how do Heyting structures deal with "web hierarchies" or
distributed networks that emerge discretness? Here is Kevin Kelly on
distributed control:
KELLY ON SUBSUMPTION ARCHITECTURE:
The distributed control layout for robots that Brooks devised came to be
known as "subsumption architecture" because the higher level of behaviors
subsumed the roles of lower levels of behaviors when they wished to take
control.
If a nation were a machine, here's how you could build it using subsumption
architecture:
You start with towns. You get a town's logistics ironed out: basic stuff
like streets, plumbing, lights, and law. Once you have a bunch of towns
working reliably, you make a county. You keep the towns going while adding a
layer of complexity that will take care of courts, jails, and schools in a
whole district of towns. If the county apparatus were to disappear, the
towns would still continue. Take a bunch of counties and add the layer of
states. States collect taxes and subsume many of the responsibilities of
governing from the county. Without states, the towns would continue,
although perhaps not as effectively or as complexly. Once you have a bunch
of states, you can add a federal government. The federal layer subsumes some
of the activities of the states, by setting their limits, and organizing
work above the state level. If the feds went away the thousands of local
towns would still continue to do their local jobs-streets, plumbing and
lights. But the work of towns subsumed by states and finally subsumed by a
nation is made more powerful. That is, towns organized by this subsumption
architecture can build, educate, rule, and prosper far more than they could
individually. The federal structure of the U.S. government is therefore a
subsumption architecture.
http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/ch3-b.html
[notice how he deals with multiple levels like a grammatical layering?]
Following the subsumption architecture model, Maes is structuring a
hierarchy of algorithms that let her creatures not only adapt, but also
bootstrap themselves to increasing complex behaviors and-as an essential
part of the package-also let their own goals emerge from those behaviors
http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/ch16-e.html
Brooks's ideas gelled in a cockroachlike contraption the size of a football
called "Genghis." Brooks had pushed his downsizing to an extreme. Genghis
had six legs but no "brain" at all. All of its 12 motors and 21 sensors were
distributed in a decomposable network without a centralized controller. Yet
the interaction of these 12 muscles and 21 sensors yielded an amazingly
complex and lifelike behavior.
Each of Genghis's six tiny legs worked on its own, independent of the
others. Each leg had its own ganglion of neural cells-a tiny
microprocessor-that controlled the leg's actions. Each leg thought for
itself! Walking for Genghis then became a group project with at least six
small minds at work. Other small semiminds within its body coordinated
communication between the legs. Entomologists say this is how ants and real
cockroaches cope-they have neurons in their legs that do the leg's thinking.
In the mobot Genghis, walking emerges out of the collective behavior of the
12 motors. Two motors at each leg lift, or not, depending on what the other
legs around them are doing. If they activate in the right sequence-Okay,
hup! One, three, six, two, five, four!-walking "happens."
No one place in the contraption governs walking. Without a smart central
controller, control can trickle up from the bottom. Brooks called it
"bottom-up control." Bottom-up walking. Bottom-up smartness. If you snip off
one leg of a cockroach, it will shift gaits with the other five without
losing a stride. The shift is not learned; it is an immediate
self-reorganization. If you disable one leg of Genghis, the other legs
organize walking around the five that work. They find a new gait as easily
as the cockroach.
In one of his papers, Rod Brooks first laid out his instructions on how to
make a creature walk without knowing how:
There is no central controller which directs the body where to put each foot
or how high to lift a leg should there be an obstacle ahead. Instead, each
leg is granted a few simple behaviors and each independently knows what to
do under various circumstances. For instance, two basic behaviors can be
thought of as "If I'm a leg and I'm up, put myself down, " or "If I'm a leg
and I'm forward, put the other five legs back a little." These processes
exist independently, run at all times, and fire whenever the sensory
preconditions are true. To create walking then, there just needs to be a
sequencing of lifting legs (this is the only instance where any central
control is evident). As soon as a leg is raised it automatically swings
itself forward, and also down. But the act of swinging forward triggers all
the other legs to move back a little. Since those legs happen to be touching
the ground, the body moves forward.
Once the beast can walk on a flat smooth floor without tripping, other
behaviors can be added to improve the walk. For Genghis to get up and over a
mound of phone books on the floor, it needs a pair of sensing whiskers to
send information from the floor to the first set of legs. A signal from a
whisker can suppress a motor's action. The rule might be, "If you feel
something, I'll stop; if you don't, I'll keep going."
While Genghis learns to climb over an obstacle, the foundational walking
routine is never fiddled with. This is a universal biological principle that
Brooks helped illuminate-a law of god: When something works, don't mess with
it; build on top of it. In natural systems, improvements are "pasted" over
an existing debugged system. The original layer continues to operate without
even being (or needing to be) aware that it has another layer above it.
When friends give you directions on how to get to their house, they don't
tell you to "avoid hitting other cars" even though you must absolutely
follow this instruction. They don't need to communicate the goals of lower
operating levels because that work is done smoothly by a well-practiced
steering skill. Instead, the directions to their house all pertain to
high-level activities like navigating through a town.
Animals learn (in evolutionary time) in a similar manner. As do Brooks's
mobots. His machines learn to move through a complicated world by building
up a hierarchy of behaviors, somewhat in this order:
Avoid contact with objects
Wander aimlessly
Explore the world
Build an internal map
Notice changes in the environment
Formulate travel plans
Anticipate and modify plans accordingly
The Wander-Aimlessly Department doesn't give a hoot about obstacles, since
the Avoidance Department takes such good care of that.
http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/ch3-b.html
Just curious how Heyting would describe "walking" here.

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar

.
User: "galathaea"

Title: Re: :: more focus on the constructive discussion 11 Feb 2004 09:41:05 PM
"Immortalist" wrote:
:
: A++ I say, and ye have pointed the way! Heyting man, you know like SAM,
the
: ***** with the green eggs and ham, you can have anywhere anyway, alway
green
: and with ham.
:
: http://tinyurl.com/2rmst
:
: Joking here, this is a really good article and I suspect you have the book
: part way done? You could kill the market if you could put it all in as
: simple speak. Excellent linkage to back up your positions so obscurantism
: cannot be claimed.
Well, your posts provide nice templates! ;)
Maybe a book is necessary. I'm beginning to think that maybe my questions
on education are somehow "lazy" on my part, since someone needs to put the
material together if that were even to happen. There are certainly many
nice ways to approach the topics involved in a layered manner, to keep the
conceptual connections clear. I always need to work on my simplespeak,
because it keeps my understanding much clearer and honest. Confusion has a
way of hiding itself in jargon.
: My question is how do Heyting structures deal with "web hierarchies" or
: distributed networks that emerge discretness?
Well, that's very much the key. So very, very many things are described in
the terms of "graph dynamics" (graph in the mathematical sense, as in a
collection of objects or "vertices" and a web of connecting "edges").
Anything computable can, because that's the description of a computer as an
automaton. Transitions between graphs form a category that has a Heyting
structure, and a topology over an individual graph also gives one.
The distributed control you detail has very much the same structure as the
formation of languages detailed by the agent communication references in my
list, which:
: [notice how he deals with multiple levels like a grammatical layering?]
you, of course, point out. Also, you point to the natural hierarchical
structures (again graphs and, more specifically, sometimes trees) of goals
in the distributed communication graphs.
[...ghengis descript...]
: Animals learn (in evolutionary time) in a similar manner. As do Brooks's
: mobots. His machines learn to move through a complicated world by building
: up a hierarchy of behaviors, somewhat in this order:
:
: Avoid contact with objects
:
: Wander aimlessly
:
: Explore the world
:
: Build an internal map
:
: Notice changes in the environment
:
: Formulate travel plans
:
: Anticipate and modify plans accordingly
:
:
: The Wander-Aimlessly Department doesn't give a hoot about obstacles, since
: the Avoidance Department takes such good care of that.
:
: http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/ch3-b.html
:
: Just curious how Heyting would describe "walking" here.
Well, learning as dynamics of attractor spaces is a powerful idea!
=)
I also had wanted to respond to something very similar you brought up in
your second post, but kept letting it slip for other posts, but it fits in
nicely here. You mentioned fractal attractors or chaotic dynamics in terms
of mental processes. I just wanted to mention that although there is not
much evidence for chaos in the brain, there are observations that point to
it being possible in certain situations (I mentioned work on schizophrenia
at one point in all the screaming and some simulations by King, Barchas, and
Huberman on the central dopaminergic system which points to possible chaos
as a cause, and there is research on photoepilepsy and related "dynamical
disease"), so my opinion is very simialr to Stuart Kauffman's "edge of
chaos", deterministic enough to control, close enough to chaos to adapt
effectively.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: :: more focus on the constructive discussion 12 Feb 2004 06:15:07 PM
"galathaea" <galathaea@excite.com> wrote in message
news:102ltebio4k7q42@corp.supernews.com...

"Immortalist" wrote:
:
: A++ I say, and ye have pointed the way! Heyting man, you know like SAM,
the
: ***** with the green eggs and ham, you can have anywhere anyway, alway
green
: and with ham.
:
: http://tinyurl.com/2rmst
:
: Joking here, this is a really good article and I suspect you have the

book

: part way done? You could kill the market if you could put it all in as
: simple speak. Excellent linkage to back up your positions so

obscurantism

: cannot be claimed.

Well, your posts provide nice templates! ;)

Maybe a book is necessary. I'm beginning to think that maybe my questions
on education are somehow "lazy" on my part, since someone needs to put the
material together if that were even to happen. There are certainly many
nice ways to approach the topics involved in a layered manner, to keep the
conceptual connections clear. I always need to work on my simplespeak,
because it keeps my understanding much clearer and honest. Confusion has

a

way of hiding itself in jargon.

But like the legs of the robot if simple rules are followed and when one leg
moves it influences temporarily the possibilities of movement for the other
five, another layer can be tuned in called walking. This could be a
bifurcation point, the tuning of the mindless legs that do certain things
when they bump into things, like letters in words. So if you regular stuff
is synched right other layers may pop up by self organization for free man!

: My question is how do Heyting structures deal with "web hierarchies" or
: distributed networks that emerge discretness?

Well, that's very much the key. So very, very many things are described

in

the terms of "graph dynamics" (graph in the mathematical sense, as in a
collection of objects or "vertices" and a web of connecting "edges").
Anything computable can, because that's the description of a computer as

an

automaton. Transitions between graphs form a category that has a Heyting
structure, and a topology over an individual graph also gives one.

But when a front leg hits a stair it rises, but it causes all the other legs
to stretch out resonding to lift foot because of the step in front of it and
once the front leg is up the other legs push it onto the step. But these are
simple rules and no way could be considered walking until they are tuned a
bit and the bifurcation to higher organization with no agency.

The distributed control you detail has very much the same structure as the
formation of languages detailed by the agent communication references in

my

list, which:

: [notice how he deals with multiple levels like a grammatical layering?]

you, of course, point out. Also, you point to the natural hierarchical
structures (again graphs and, more specifically, sometimes trees) of goals
in the distributed communication graphs.

[...ghengis descript...]

: Animals learn (in evolutionary time) in a similar manner. As do Brooks's
: mobots. His machines learn to move through a complicated world by

building

: up a hierarchy of behaviors, somewhat in this order:
:
: Avoid contact with objects
:
: Wander aimlessly
:
: Explore the world
:
: Build an internal map
:
: Notice changes in the environment
:
: Formulate travel plans
:
: Anticipate and modify plans accordingly
:
:
: The Wander-Aimlessly Department doesn't give a hoot about obstacles,

since

: the Avoidance Department takes such good care of that.
:
: http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/ch3-b.html
:
: Just curious how Heyting would describe "walking" here.

Well, learning as dynamics of attractor spaces is a powerful idea!

Thats what I'm trying to figure. If you go back and read the legs, whatever
one leg does other legs do particular things and it is all contained in a
few rules, to few to be impedous towards gated strides up and down steps
[with no command to climb except a random bump into the steps] This
bifurcation into higher order but with only lower level dumb rules has some
attractors hiding somewhere for a free ride and assembly and dispersal of
energy into an engine.

=)

I also had wanted to respond to something very similar you brought up in
your second post, but kept letting it slip for other posts, but it fits in
nicely here. You mentioned fractal attractors or chaotic dynamics in

terms

of mental processes. I just wanted to mention that although there is not
much evidence for chaos in the brain, there are observations that point to
it being possible in certain situations (I mentioned work on schizophrenia
at one point in all the screaming and some simulations by King, Barchas,

and

Huberman on the central dopaminergic system which points to possible chaos
as a cause, and there is research on photoepilepsy and related "dynamical
disease"), so my opinion is very simialr to Stuart Kauffman's "edge of
chaos", deterministic enough to control, close enough to chaos to adapt
effectively.

Gotta go but this makes me think of three books that are forrunners of
Neurocomplexity: Going Inside by McCrone, Cerebral Symphany by Calvin, and
Societies of Brains by Freeman. All three introduce systems into current
knowledge...
SignifiganceOfBrainAttractors:
We free ride the assembling and the dismemberring simualtainiety as easily
as white water rafting! [we steer but coast]---
"The concept of the attractor means a lot of the organisation of life might
require no crafting and come simply for free."
....Not surprisingly, computer scientists and brain researchers were also
inspired by chaos theory. Computer designers wondered whether they could
harness a chaotic attractor to drive a new kind of neural network. A network
might be able to represent its memories or programs as an attractor state
distributed across the strength of its connections. So rather than following
a rigid step-by-step summation of weights to produce an answer, the system
would be like a Hebbian feedback network in which input would wander about a
bit before it eventually fell into some basin of attraction. An attractor
could be seen as a mathematically more elegant way of describing a
processing landscape - the clumping of orbits in certain regions of phase
space giving the system a topography of bumps and hollows.
Neuroscientists saw the same link. One researcher, Walter Freeman of the
University of California-Berkeley, even claimed to find attractor behaviour
in the olfactory bulbs of rabbits. Using electrodes to record from the
odour-processing centre of a rabbit's brain as the animal sniffed different
chemicals through a mask, Freeman's results seemed to show that the
olfactory bulb acted as a dynamic landscape. Each odour produced its own
characteristic pattern of bumps and hollows in the electrical activity. So
chaos theory appeared to fit very neatly with a Hebbian view, giving science
a much more natural way of thinking about the business of information
processing in the brain. What was even better was that chaos theory seemed
capable of explaining both form and behaviour. For example, the branching of
dendrites and axons was bound to be ruled by the same kind of fractal
principles as those that governed the growth of blood vessels or river
tributaries. So chaos theory could account for both the look and the
activity of the brain.
....essentially, chaos theory describes how a simple, repetitive interaction,
left alone to rub along, can produce something of rich structure. It is
about the feedback-driven generation of complication. Genuine complexity is
something else, however. Shorelines, rain puddles and weather patterns have
an intricate structure, but the really interesting things in life - systems
like cells, economies, ecologies, and, of course, human minds - have extra
properties such as an ability to adapt, to self-organise, to maintain some
sort of coherence or internal integrity. These systems are not slaves to
their maths, passively following a trajectory through phase space. Instead,
they have developed some sort of memory or genetic mechanism which allows
them to fine-tune the very feedback processes that drive them. They can
change the attractor landscapes in which they dwell, and so reshape their
own futures. A complex system is one that has harnessed chaos, rather than
one that is merely produced by it.
....A key assumption of the traditional Darwinian story is that natural
selection has to handcraft each little detail of a successful organism.
Every freckle or dimple only exists thanks to the steady pressure of
competition over many generations. But deterministic chaos brings with it a
potential for a quite spontaneous and unselected eruption of order. The
concept of the attractor means a lot of the organisation of life might
require no crafting and come simply for free.
If a species of animal or plant were thought of as existing in a phase
space - the space of all possible body forms and lifestyles -then Darwinian
evolution argues that natural selection can push the organism to any corner
of this space. Any outcome is equally plausible, so long as there is
sufficient evolutionary pressure. A fish could grow feathers or an extra
stomach if the circumstances were right. By the same token, natural
selection is needed to make anything happen at all. A species cannot move to
a particular spot in the landscape without being pushed every step of the
way. Design is something that evolution imposes. However, a chaotic process
has an inherent creative energy. The very fact that it can be described in
terms of an underlying attractor means that a system has areas of phase
space it is reluctant to traverse and, likewise, areas where it is more
likely to be found. As with a weather map, there will be patterns which are
almost inevitable, while others are near impossible. The result is that
evolutionary change must be seen as a combination of the push of natural
selection and the gravitational pull of chaos.
This is a big idea because it unburdens science of one of the most nagging
problems about classical evolutionary theory. The odds against a great many
important evolutionary events, from the development of a molecule as complex
as DNA to the repeated development of eyes across many classes of animals,
often appear rather astronomical. If life on Earth depends purely on chance
to assemble the rich brew of organic molecules that were the precursors of
DNA, then we would probably still be waiting for something to happen. On the
other hand, if there is something inherently stable about DNA-like
aggregations of molecules, then immediately the odds are slashed. They would
need only the slightest nudge to evolve. So life would not have been a story
of a competition between a vast range of equally improbable events, but of a
competition within a much smaller pool of reasonably probable outcomes.
....there is a hidden energy in a feedback-driven, chaos-harnessing system.
There is both the push of its competitions and the pull of its underlying
dynamics - the places its attractors want it to go.
....Even then, complexity cannot be the whole story. The brain still has its
digital-like side. There is no escaping the all-or-nothing nature of cell
firing, or the precision with which neurons make their connections. It could
also be argued that some of the higher level properties of the brain,
especially the ability to attend have a kind of binary exclusivity. We can
make the choice to focus our awareness on one object, activity, or event,
and not another. Human brains can also -with perhaps a bit of a struggle -
think logically. We can reason in a sequential, linear fashion which appears
not unlike a computer program.
So, in the search for some sort of intellectual bedrock from which to launch
the exploration of consciousness, psychology and neu-roscience seem to need
both computer science and dynamics. By themselves, neither is enough.
Instead, a blend has to be found. Both ways of looking at information proces
sing will have to go into the mix - and the way they eventually combine
might surprise everyone.
From Chapter 3
Going Inside - A Tour Round a Single Moment of Consciousness
John McCrone - 1999
http://www.btinternet.com/~neuronaut/webtwo_articles.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0880642629/
-----------------------------------
CONSCIOUSNESS AS A SELF-ORGANIZING PROCESS:
An Ecological Perspective
....3. An ecological understanding of consciousness
Consciousness is perhaps best understood from an ecological perspective in
which the ongoing events that structure it are seen as a rich interacting
complex of informing cognitive, perceptual, and emotional information
subsystems analogous to the interactive energy driven metabolism of a living
cell. The result is an organic, self-generating, or autopoietic, system
constantly in the act of creating itself.
Informal introspection reveals the overall fabric of conscious experience at
each moment to be constructed of a variety of undergirding psychological
processes such as memory, perception, and emotion (e.g., James 1890/1981;
Combs, 1993b; Combs, 1995b). This idea is consistent with Tart's (1975,
1985) view that states of consciousness, including dream and non-dream
sleep, various drug-induced and ecstatic states, as well as ordinary waking
consciousness, are formed of unique patterns of psychological functions, or
processes, that fit comfortably together to make something like a gestalt.
We may suspect that this comfortable gestalt represents an energy minimum
from the brain's point of view.
There is increasing evidence on many fronts that such psychological
processes, as well as the neurological events that undergird them, are
partially chaotic or, if they do not meet the formal criteria for chaos
(e.g., Kellert, 1993), at least chaos-like (e.g., Abraham & Gilgen, 1994;
Basar, 1990; Freeman, 1995; Pribram, 1995; Robertson & Combs, 1995). That
is, they appear to be deterministic and nonlinear, exhibiting globally
predictable patterns of behavior that never exactly repeat themselves, and
are not predictable in detail. In other words, these psychological processes
can be modeled as chaotic attractors. From this it seems reasonable that
consciousness itself, as a whole fabric, can be understood as a complex
system comprised of chaotic or chaotic-like psychological processes
(Goertzel, 1994; Goertzel, 1995). The advantage to this state of affairs is
added flexibility. For instance, in a memory search the injection of chaos
keeps the process fluid, so the memory attractor, which can be viewed either
psychologically or neurologically, is not permanently distracted into small
incorrect minima, or in other words, so that incorrect items are not
selected and the search terminated before the correct one is recalled.
Bringing the above ideas together, we suggest that each state of
consciousness, mood, or frame of mind, represents a unique and
coherent--minimal energy--fit for the in-formation streams represented by
the many psychological processes which comprise it, producing a stable
pattern or gestalt. Further, the stability of the pattern arises from its
autopoietic tendency to self-organize. How this works on the level of
experience is discussed at length elsewhere (Combs, 1993a, 1995a), but need
not be subtle. For instance, an ordinary episode of depression is usually
accompanied by behaviors that actively feed that state of mind, or at least
don't rally against it. In the mean time, cognitive processes such as
thought, perception, and memory become tilted toward depressing outcomes.
Research suggests, for example, that when we are depressed we tend to recall
unpleasant episodes from our past (Bower, 1981). These recollections in turn
feed the mood of depression, and so perpetuate a continuous cycle of memory
and mood. To disrupt such a self-perpetuating circuit one needs to engage in
activities that can up-end the dominant depressive attractor. For instance,
one can visit friends, listen to a rousing piece of music, eat a good meal,
or take a brisk walk in the forest.
The essential notion here is that the whole cloth of consciousness is woven
of a tightly knit informational patchwork of subprocesses, each made
possible and supported on all sides by the totality of the cloth itself,
while at the same time contributing its own part to the creation of that
totality. To put it another way, consider two discrete states of
consciousness, the ordinary waking state and dream sleep. Each is an entire
world of experience. Each carries its own intrinsic styles of thinking, its
own forms of memory, feelings, thought and perceptions--its own
possibilities. Dream thought, for instance, arises from the total experience
of the dream and cannot be sensibly separated from it. At the same time, it
contributes its unique quality to the dream.
Recently, a few neuroscientists (e.g., Freeman, 1995; Sulis, 1996) have
extended the above line of thought to include an understanding that the
human brain did not evolve in isolation, but in the community of other such
brains. Thus for human beings, processes such as thought, perception,
emotion, and even memory, are usually shared events within tribal, family,
and community groups. Exceptions are rare and sometimes celebrated, but do
not represent the customary basic mode of human experience. Thus it would
seem that we need to seek a more complete understanding of social systems,
from dyads to civilizations, in the context of the informational systems
that nest the conscious experience of individual minds within much larger
dynamic community systems. These systems are, in fact the "supra-living"
systems seen earlier in the article. Here, however, we note that such
systems do not represent a hierarchically higher and separate category of
energy organization, but in fact are interpenetrated by human experience and
consciousness itself.
http://www.unca.edu/~combs/Art%20Self-Org.html
--------------------------------
....Biologist Freeman argues that meaning is captured in the perceptual
encoding based on studies of oscillations in the olfactory bulb of
motivated, behaving rabbits. In his view, the particular bifurcation pathway
and hence the spatial patterns and complex attractor are determined by the
affective state of the organism during the dynamic process, and the
affective state is thus part of the memory formed and can be recovered when
the original stimulus is encountered again. This demonstration of feeling
bound up in the form of a mammal's perceptual encoding of smell must be
contrasted with Cassirer's emphasis on meaning arise from language - it
appears deeper and more intimately bound into percepts not visibly expressed
by the organism.
http://www.well.com/user/demaris/einmag.html
--------------------------------
Overview: Brains are characterized by every property that engineers and
computer scientists detest and avoid. They are chaotic, unstable,
nonlinear, nonstationary, non-Gaussian, asynchronous, noisy, and successful
devices that a billion years of biological evolution has produced. No one
can justifiably claim that he or she has modeled brains, but they are a
flowing spring of new concepts, and they provide a gold standard of what we
can aspire to accomplish in developing more intelligent machines.
The most fertile source of ideas with which challenge and break the
restrictions that characterize contemporary engineering practice is the
electroencephalogram (EEG). The action potential of single neurons provided
the foundation of neurodynamics for the 20th century, and in its time it
supported the development of digital computers, neural networks, and
computational neuroscience.
Now in the 21st century, the EEG will lead us in a remarkably different
direction of growth parallel, hierarchically organized, distributed
machines. These new devices now exist in prototype form. They feed on
noise support of chaotic attractor landscapes, which are shaped by education
through self-governed experience, not training by ‘teachers’, and they will
address and solve problems of interfacing between finite state automata and
the infinite complexity of the real world.
http://web.umr.edu/~annie/annie02_final/ps.htm
----------------------------
The development of the theory of chaos in the past two decades has suggested
a resolution of the discrepancy between mesoscopic (Freeman, 2000a) global
order and aperiodic seemingly random activity at microscopic levels. In
particular, models of deterministic chaos have been proposed, such as
twist-flip maps and the Lorenz, Rössler, and Chua attractors, which are
capable of dramatic and yet fully reversible changes in their aperiodic
outputs with small changes in their bifurcation parameters. However, these
models are low-dimensional, stationary, autonomous, and essentially
noise-free, so they are ill-formed to model brains, which fail to conform to
any of these conditions. Attempts to measure correlation dimensions,
Lyapunov exponents, and related numeric features of brain subsystems have
failed to yield normative results and have fallen into disrepute (Rapp
1993).
http://www.vxm.com/Link.Freemanbiocomplex.html
--------------------------------
The Cerebral Code is a new understanding of how Darwinian processes could
operate in the brain to shape mental images in only seconds, starting with
shuffled memories no better than the jumble of our nighttime dreams, but
evolving into something of quality, such as a sentence to speak aloud. Jung
said that dreaming goes on continuously but you can't see it when you are
awake, just as you can't see the stars in the daylight because it is too
bright. Calvin's is a theory for what goes on, hidden from view by the glare
of waking mental operations, that produces our peculiarly human type of
consciousness with its versatile intelligence.
Surprisingly, the subtitle's mosaics of the mind is not a literary metaphor.
For the first time, it is a description of a mechanism of what appears to be
an appropriate level of explanation for many mental phenomena, that of
hexagonal mosaics of electrical activity that compete for territory in the
association cortex of the brain.
[Surprisingly many people that talked about this book didn't realize Calvin
was talking complexity theory and the fractional...]
The Cerebral Code: Thinking a Thought in the Mosaics of the Mind
by William H. Calvin (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262531542/
-------------------------------
"Having played its role in setting the initial conditions, the
sense-dependent activity is washed away, and the perceptual message that is
sent on into the forebrain is the construction, not the residue of a filter
or a computational algorithm. A requirement for this process of "laundering"
is for spatial coherence, which arises from cooperativity over the cortical
populations. This process of replacement of sensory inputs by endogenous
constructions in perception constitutes the basis of epistemological
solipsism in brains."
http://www.williamcalvin.com/bookshelf/brains.htm
Societies of Brains: A Study in the Neuroscience of Love and Hate: The
Spinoza Lectures: Amsterdam, Netherlands (The International Neural Networks)
by Walter J. Freeman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805820175/
----------------------------
Mesoscopic neurodynamics: From neuron to brain
Walter J. Freeman
Abstract – Intelligent behavior is characterized by flexible and creative
pursuit of endogenously defined goals. Intentionality is a key concept by
which to link neuron and brain to goal-directed behavior through brain
dynamics. An archetypal form of intentional behavior is an act of
observation in space-time, by which information is sought for the guidance
of future action to explore unpredictable and ever-changing environments.
These acts are based in the brain dynamics that creates spatiotemporal
patterns of neural activity, serving as images of goals, of command
sequences by which to act to reach goals, and of expected changes in sensory
input resulting from intended actions. Prediction of the sensory
consequences of intended action and evaluation of performance is by
reafference. An intentional act is completed upon modification of the system
by itself through learning.
These principles are well known among psychologists and philosophers. What
is new is the development of nonlinear mesoscopic brain dynamics, by which
the theory of chaos can be used to understand and simulate the constructions
of meaningful patterns of neural activity that implement the process of
observation. The design of neurobiological experiments, analysis of the
resulting data, and synthesis of explanatory models require an understanding
of the hierarchical nature of brain organization, here conceived as single
neurons and neural networks at the microscopic level; clinically defined
cortical and subcortical systems studied by brain imaging (for example,
fMRI) at the macroscopic level, and self-organizing neural populations at an
intermediate mesoscopic level, at which synaptic interactions create novel
activity patterns through nonlinear state transitions. The constructive
neurodynamics of sensory cortices, when they are engaged in pattern
recognition, is revealed by learning-dependent spatial patterns of amplitude
modulation and by newly discovered radially symmetric spatial gradients of
the phase of aperiodic carrier waves in multichannel subdural EEG
recordings.
Full Paper
http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/wjf/AF.Mesoscopics.pdf

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar


.
User: "Jacques Guy"

Title: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 13 Feb 2004 06:33:42 PM
Immortalist wrote:
ne that is merely produced by it.


...A key assumption of the traditional Darwinian story is that natural
selection has to handcraft each little detail of a successful organism.
Every freckle or dimple only exists thanks to the steady pressure of
competition over many generations.

I can hardly believe that that has been the Credo in Unam Evolutionem.
To me, evolution is not the survival of the fittest, it is the
demise of the terminally inept, or the just plain unlucky.
It is not the struggle for life either, it is finding a nice
niche and snuggling in it, in other words, _avoiding_ the struggle
for life. And again, it is achieved either by intelligence, or
just pure good luck. E.g. if you are a mutation with big warts on
your *****, does it makes you fitter? Only if the females around
you are fans of Franz Liszt, or have been keeping a tomcat for
a lover. And even so, you might never score with any. Exiit
the warts-on-***** mutation. Why? Just bad luck. (Alternately,
they might prefer to give you a straight ***** than a *****.
Bingo! More chances of passing on your mutation if she's
forgotten to take her pill. Survival of the fittest? Pull the
other one.)
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 13 Feb 2004 06:31:59 PM
"Jacques Guy" <jguy@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
news:402D6CE6.55B9@alphalink.com.au...

Immortalist wrote:
ne that is merely produced by it.


...A key assumption of the traditional Darwinian story is that natural
selection has to handcraft each little detail of a successful organism.
Every freckle or dimple only exists thanks to the steady pressure of
competition over many generations.


I can hardly believe that that has been the Credo in Unam Evolutionem.
To me, evolution is not the survival of the fittest, it is the
demise of the terminally inept, or the just plain unlucky.
It is not the struggle for life either, it is finding a nice
niche and snuggling in it, in other words, _avoiding_ the struggle
for life. And again, it is achieved either by intelligence, or
just pure good luck. E.g. if you are a mutation with big warts on
your *****, does it makes you fitter? Only if the females around
you are fans of Franz Liszt, or have been keeping a tomcat for
a lover. And even so, you might never score with any. Exiit
the warts-on-***** mutation. Why? Just bad luck. (Alternately,
they might prefer to give you a straight ***** than a *****.
Bingo! More chances of passing on your mutation if she's
forgotten to take her pill. Survival of the fittest? Pull the
other one.)

If I come to a situation fresh it might take time to learn. If I am back
again I have memory which reduces the problem to simplicity. DNA is a form
of accumulated memory.
.
User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: Given any physical or biological system ... 18 Feb 2004 07:07:02 AM
Hi Immortalist, You suggested,
" DNA is a form of accumulated memory " ,
Given any physical or biological system,
no matter how it's " Memory " defines the word " Order " ,
nature will always seem like this to it :
It has a consumption rate.
First nature gives it everything for free,
and then, in the end, nature takes it all back .
And because it's information is always incomplete,
it must model nature as a semi-bizarre casino.
In evolution we're apes,
In the big bang we're dimensionless points,
In spatial time we and our gods are notions.
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Given any physical or biological system ... 18 Feb 2004 05:29:19 PM
"Jeff Relf" <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message
news:1j9xzfkrgseoo$.dlg@x.Jeff.Relf...

Hi Immortalist, You suggested,
" DNA is a form of accumulated memory " ,

Given any physical or biological system,
no matter how it's " Memory " defines the word " Order " ,
nature will always seem like this to it :
It has a consumption rate.
First nature gives it everything for free,
and then, in the end, nature takes it all back .
And because it's information is always incomplete,
it must model nature as a semi-bizarre casino.

In evolution we're apes,
In the big bang we're dimensionless points,
In spatial time we and our gods are notions.

i have memory of all these words and phrases, only some of which make sense
in response.
.
User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: Re: Given any physical or biological system ... 18 Feb 2004 11:32:10 PM
Hi Immortalist,
If I understand your very broken English correctly,
I think you said something about how
your memory allows you to respond to Usenet posts.
How people respond to posts is very trivial,
people have lots of trivial choices like that ...
What they don't have are Real choices, for example:
They didn't chose to be born.
They can't chose to live
an active life for more than about 72 years.
They can't choose to remain alive if they stop breathing.
With the likely reality that time is spatial,
( only incomplete information makes it seem otherwise )
my very being, my sense of self, is a notion, an idea.
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Given any physical or biological system ... 19 Feb 2004 03:43:15 PM
"Jeff Relf" <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message
news:1in2utp9skovo$.dlg@x.Jeff.Relf...

Hi Immortalist,
If I understand your very broken English correctly,
I think you said something about how
your memory allows you to respond to Usenet posts.

How people respond to posts is very trivial,
people have lots of trivial choices like that ...

What they don't have are Real choices, for example:
They didn't chose to be born.
They can't chose to live
an active life for more than about 72 years.
They can't choose to remain alive if they stop breathing.

With the likely reality that time is spatial,
( only incomplete information makes it seem otherwise )
my very being, my sense of self, is a notion, an idea.

one genome and it is in all 70 trillion cells in yer body
a particular cell hits a chemical gradient and can turn into one of 450
types of body cells
contingency plans
memory is like this once accumulated by selection amoungst genes for
learning to live in immediate environment
.

User: "1Z"

Title: Re: Given any physical or biological system ... 19 Feb 2004 05:01:00 AM
Jeff Relf <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message

What they don't have are Real choices, for example:
They didn't chose to be born.
They can't chose to live
an active life for more than about 72 years.
They can't choose to remain alive if they stop breathing.

Oh dear, so we only get to choose everything that happens between life
and death ?
.
User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: When the choices are more vital. 19 Feb 2004 05:13:56 AM
Hi 1Z, You joked,
" Oh dear, so we only get to choose
everything that happens between life and death ? " .
If the choice is really trivial,
then you can easily imagine that you are free to make it.
It's only when the choices are more vital
that the lack of options becomes really apparent:
You didn't chose to be born.
You can't chose to live an active life for more than
about 72 years.
You can't choose to remain alive if you stop breathing.
Generally,
The more momentum an object has the easier it is to track,
so our information about it is more complete.
At scales over 10 ^ 10 cm,
it becomes very obvious that time is actually spatial.
and that it's only the incompleteness of our information
that makes it seem otherwise.
Just like all randomness is notional, so too is liberty.
.


User: "Xaonon"

Title: Re: Given any physical or biological system ... 18 Feb 2004 11:52:33 PM
Ned i bach <1in2utp9skovo$.dlg@x.Jeff.Relf>, Jeff Relf <Me@Privacy.NET>
teithant i thiw hin:

Hi Immortalist,
If I understand your very broken English correctly,

You're hardly one to criticize, Relf.
--
Xaonon, EAC Chief of Mad Scientists and informal BAAWA, aa #1821, Kibo #: 1
http://xaonon.dyndns.org/ Guaranteed content-free since 1999. No refunds.
"I am asking you a SERIOUS QUESTION about the LOCATION and CURRENT STATUS of
your pants." -- Penny-Arcade.com
.
User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: I can explain it. 19 Feb 2004 12:07:07 AM
Hi Xaonon, Re: The Immortalist's very broken English,
You replied, " You're hardly one to criticize, Relf " ,
Are you having trouble understanding something I wrote ?
If so, I'm sure that I can explain it to you.
.
User: "Xaonon"

Title: Re: I can explain it. 19 Feb 2004 12:40:33 AM
Ned i bach <1wdr8nqjogpug$.dlg@x.Jeff.Relf>, Jeff Relf <Me@Privacy.NET>
teithant i thiw hin:

Hi Xaonon, Re: The Immortalist's very broken English,
You replied, " You're hardly one to criticize, Relf " ,

Are you having trouble understanding something I wrote ?

If so, I'm sure that I can explain it to you.

You can't even master the concepts of punctuation and whitespace, let alone
physics. What are the odds that anything you have to say is worth the time?
--
Xaonon, EAC Chief of Mad Scientists and informal BAAWA, aa #1821, Kibo #: 1
http://xaonon.dyndns.org/ Guaranteed content-free since 1999. No refunds.
"I don't mizzle shizzle if real wizzles are used. What I do mizzle is made
up slizzle, like shizzle dizzle. What the fizzle?" -- not Lots42
.
User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: That's too bad. 19 Feb 2004 02:16:55 AM
Hi Xaonon,
Re: Your unwillingness to
discuss and understand what your reading,
You commented,
" What are the odds that anything you have to say is
worth the time ? " .
That's too bad, You might learn something someday
if you spent some time with anyone to understand anything,
... especially physics.
.






User: "Creative Music Synth [220]"

Title: Re: Given any physical or biological system ... 18 Feb 2004 02:31:29 PM
I am the best MIDI output
Jeff Relf <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message news:<1j9xzfkrgseoo$.dlg@x.Jeff.Relf>...

Hi Immortalist, You suggested,
" DNA is a form of accumulated memory " ,

Given any physical or biological system,
no matter how it's " Memory " defines the word " Order " ,
nature will always seem like this to it :
It has a consumption rate.
First nature gives it everything for free,
and then, in the end, nature takes it all back .
And because it's information is always incomplete,
it must model nature as a semi-bizarre casino.

In evolution we're apes,
In the big bang we're dimensionless points,
In spatial time we and our gods are notions.

.


User: "Wolf Kirchmeir"

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 14 Feb 2004 08:36:24 AM
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:31:59 -0800, Immortalist wrote:

If I come to a situation fresh it might take time to learn. If I am back
again I have memory which reduces the problem to simplicity. DNA is a form
of accumulated memory.

DNA is a collection of successful parasites.
STIYPASI.
--
Wolf Kirchmeir, Blind River, Ontario, Canada
"Knowledge defines the boundaries of ignorance"
(after Augustine, Mcluhan and others.)
{drop first and last letters in address for correct email}
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 15 Feb 2004 03:57:14 PM
"Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwolfkir@sympatico.can> wrote in message
news:jbysxveflzcngvpbpn.ht2wko1.pminews@news1.sympatico.ca...

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:31:59 -0800, Immortalist wrote:

If I come to a situation fresh it might take time to learn. If I am back
again I have memory which reduces the problem to simplicity. DNA is a

form

of accumulated memory.


DNA is a collection of successful parasites.

Partially true. But often changes to DNA can be promoted by a change in the
groups of viruses and bacteriums that are in it's local environment.
kill books on this man
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618118128/
http://tinyurl.com/2bfyf

STIYPASI.

--
Wolf Kirchmeir, Blind River, Ontario, Canada
"Knowledge defines the boundaries of ignorance"
(after Augustine, Mcluhan and others.)
{drop first and last letters in address for correct email}


.



User: "1Z"

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 13 Feb 2004 04:52:45 AM
Jacques Guy <jguy@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message news:<402D6CE6.55B9@alphalink.com.au>...

Immortalist wrote:
ne that is merely produced by it.


...A key assumption of the traditional Darwinian story is that natural
selection has to handcraft each little detail of a successful organism.
Every freckle or dimple only exists thanks to the steady pressure of
competition over many generations.

Nope, a lot of the minor phenotypal details come about for developmental reasons.
There isn't enough DNA to code for every freckle.
.

User: "mitch"

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 13 Feb 2004 01:05:56 AM
Jacques Guy wrote:

Immortalist wrote:
ne that is merely produced by it.


...A key assumption of the traditional Darwinian story is that natural
selection has to handcraft each little detail of a successful organism.
Every freckle or dimple only exists thanks to the steady pressure of
competition over many generations.


I can hardly believe that that has been the Credo in Unam Evolutionem.
To me, evolution is not the survival of the fittest, it is the
demise of the terminally inept, or the just plain unlucky.
It is not the struggle for life either, it is finding a nice
niche and snuggling in it, in other words, _avoiding_ the struggle
for life. And again, it is achieved either by intelligence, or
just pure good luck. E.g. if you are a mutation with big warts on
your *****, does it makes you fitter? Only if the females around
you are fans of Franz Liszt, or have been keeping a tomcat for
a lover. And even so, you might never score with any. Exiit
the warts-on-***** mutation. Why? Just bad luck. (Alternately,
they might prefer to give you a straight ***** than a *****.
Bingo! More chances of passing on your mutation if she's
forgotten to take her pill. Survival of the fittest? Pull the
other one.)

I suspect that your interpretation (well, at least the start of it) better
reflects original intent. Often, it seems, the thoughts of men respected by
history are distorted. Politics attached to a simple quote is more
influential than the sense of the fiction in which it was given.
Machiavelli, for instance, espouses virtue by the end of "The Prince." I had
not expected that from popular accounts.
:-)
mitch
.

User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Morris_Carr=E9?="

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 18 Feb 2004 10:22:44 AM
Jacques Guy wrote:

the warts-on-***** mutation. Why? Just bad luck. (Alternately,
they might prefer to give you a straight ***** than a *****.
Bingo! More chances of passing on your mutation if she's
forgotten to take her pill. Survival of the fittest?

warts-on-dicks could just as well pierce condoms for reproductive advantage,
and wouldn't that be a more parsimonious explanation ?
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 18 Feb 2004 05:28:02 PM
"Morris Carré" <ruses@users.ch> wrote in message
news:40339154.8020908@users.ch...

Jacques Guy wrote:

the warts-on-***** mutation. Why? Just bad luck. (Alternately,
they might prefer to give you a straight ***** than a *****.
Bingo! More chances of passing on your mutation if she's
forgotten to take her pill. Survival of the fittest?


warts-on-dicks could just as well pierce condoms for reproductive

advantage,

and wouldn't that be a more parsimonious explanation ?

oh, given 20,000 to 40,000 years of using particular kinds of condoms? Then
the various sperm, some of which exist only to kill other mens sperm up the
shoot, might be put to other uses, peircing plastic.
.
User: "galathaea"

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 19 Feb 2004 12:40:00 AM
"Immortalist" wrote:
: oh, given 20,000 to 40,000 years of using particular kinds of condoms?
Then
: the various sperm, some of which exist only to kill other mens sperm up
the
: shoot, might be put to other uses, peircing plastic.
I had not once expected this thread to cover human sperm competition and the
controversy of kamikazee sperm.
I like seeing things I don't expect.
Will the divergent evolution of the clitoris be considered next, or the
invagination of the blastula into the gastrula as a turning point in
metazoan feeding patterns?
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Darwinian story (was:: more focus on the constructive discussion) 19 Feb 2004 03:45:04 PM
"galathaea" <galathaea@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1038mhqhn9d0h5c@corp.supernews.com...

"Immortalist" wrote:
: oh, given 20,000 to 40,000 years of using particular kinds of condoms?
Then
: the various sperm, some of which exist only to kill other mens sperm up
the
: shoot, might be put to other uses, peircing plastic.

I had not once expected this thread to cover human sperm competition and

the

controversy of kamikazee sperm.

I like seeing things I don't expect.

Will the divergent evolution of the clitoris be considered next, or the
invagination of the blastula into the gastrula as a turning point in
metazoan feeding patterns?

how blushing is very similar to a heart on and how men have evolved skills
of deception to short circuit the mind revealer in blushing and female
superior skills at communication

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar


.









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