!! New scientific analysis proves WTC Demolition !!



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Henry"
Date: 17 May 2007 09:43:40 AM
Object: !! New scientific analysis proves WTC Demolition !!
The free fall speed of the collapses, the near perfect symmetry,
the multiple, synchronized explosions, and the flowing, molten
metal observed deep in the rubble of all three WTC demolition sites
is all the proof a clear thinking person needs to conclude that the
towers ans WTC7 were demolished, but here is still more conclusive
proof for the severely brainwashed, and those who have difficulty
grasping basic concepts involving physics, mechanics, and logic.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
All comments are welcome, whether they are the hysterical,
nonsensical, knee jerk rants of magic fire conspiracy kooks,
or the thoughtful observations of reasonable people based
on the findings in Dr. Jones' paper.
--
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://stj911.org
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html
http://www.911truth.org
Ever wonder who benefits from the 300 MILLION
U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21
"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
.

User: "David"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 24 May 2007 04:19:49 PM
"galathaea" <galathaea@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180035191.479275.201230@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

On May 22, 12:38 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
[...]

Yes plenty of science for sure. Very short of common sense however.
You would have to be a lunatic to think that so many people in the inner
circles would engage in a conspiracy that would give them a life sentence
in
the likely event that it would be uncovered


there are many historical examples of just that kind of activity

in fact
there are many well-documented historical examples
of the american government participating in that kind of activity

south-east asia
south america

hell
operation gladio lasted well into the late 70's - early 80's
in industrialised first-world italy
with a number of false flag operations in their "strategy of tension"

american paramilitary units
have been very real for a very long time

it is not crazy to hypothesise
that past observations may explain current events

that is what science is all about

i never understand this "common sense"
that denies well-observed and documented events
and belittles investigation

explain to me which of the above examples have resulted in a charge of mass
murder of Americans against the top echelon in the administration


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar

.
User: "galathaea"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 24 May 2007 05:05:09 PM
On May 24, 2:19 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

"galathaea" <galath...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180035191.479275.201230@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

On May 22, 12:38 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:


[...]


Yes plenty of science for sure. Very short of common sense however.
You would have to be a lunatic to think that so many people in the inner
circles would engage in a conspiracy that would give them a life sentence
in the likely event that it would be uncovered


there are many historical examples of just that kind of activity


in fact
there are many well-documented historical examples
of the american government participating in that kind of activity


south-east asia
south america


hell
operation gladio lasted well into the late 70's - early 80's
in industrialised first-world italy
with a number of false flag operations in their "strategy of tension"


american paramilitary units
have been very real for a very long time


it is not crazy to hypothesise
that past observations may explain current events


that is what science is all about


i never understand this "common sense"
that denies well-observed and documented events
and belittles investigation


explain to me which of the above examples have resulted in a charge of mass
murder of Americans against the top echelon in the administration

well those show that the american government
has the agency and willingness to perform such actions secretly
so they should at least cause concern
but if you can easily ignore that evidence
then things like the tuskegee experiments
against americans
including condemning children to congenital syphilis
probably won't phase you either
or artichoke / mkultra against
horrors!
_actually_white_americans_
of course
the fact that operation northwoods reached "upper echelons"
_and_received_their_approval_
for a fake attack on american soil
now well documented and admitted by government (foia)
probably also doesn't meet your requirements
the point though
is not that this gives any support for the 9/11 theories
these are not evidence in favor of those interpretations
they are evidence against this idea
that it is somehow crazy to even suspect the possibility
using such tactics is a shallow avoidance technique
mere antiscience desirous of ignorance
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
User: "Rob Kleinschmidt"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 25 May 2007 01:19:36 AM
On May 24, 2:05 pm, galathaea <galath...@gmail.com> wrote:

On May 24, 2:19 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

[re governments can be capable of evil cover operations]

the point though
is not that this gives any support for the 9/11 theories

these are not evidence in favor of those interpretations

they are evidence against this idea
that it is somehow crazy to even suspect the possibility

The point though is that the current administration has
shown itself to be spectacularly incompetent in everything
it touches.
They manage to stir up the rightish end of the political
spectrum, but they make ***** out of every operation
they undertake. They're currently attempting to snatch
defeat from the jaws of victory in Afghanistan too.
Apart from being good cheerleaders, I see no core
competence.
When they can't even "find" some WMDs in Iraq, you figure
they could pull off a covert WTC demolition in the couple
of months they were in office ? Also, all demolition scenarios
I've seen involve some kind of postulated sci fi device whose
properties are not well specified (nano-thermite, rays, radiation
free nukes, etc).
Jumbo jet hits building. Building catches fire and collapses
an hour later. Not too astonishing IMHO.
.
User: "Henry"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 30 May 2007 07:05:38 PM
Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:

On May 24, 2:05 pm, galathaea <galath...@gmail.com> wrote:

On May 24, 2:19 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

[re governments can be capable of evil cover operations]

the point though
is not that this gives any support for the 9/11 theories

these are not evidence in favor of those interpretations

they are evidence against this idea
that it is somehow crazy to even suspect the possibility


The point though is that the current administration has
shown itself to be spectacularly incompetent in everything
it touches.

Which is why everyone but the most ignorant and gullible
fools can see through their 9-11 cartoon conspiracy lies, and
are not fooled by their propaganda.
--
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://stj911.org
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html
http://www.911truth.org
Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed
to raging infernos for hours on end.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html
On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which
had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry
at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled
demolition.
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm
Ever wonder who benefits from the 300 MILLION
U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21
"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...
.



User: "The_Man"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 24 May 2007 04:34:39 PM
On May 24, 5:19 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

"galathaea" <galath...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1180035191.479275.201230@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...





On May 22, 12:38 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
[...]

Yes plenty of science for sure. Very short of common sense however.
You would have to be a lunatic to think that so many people in the inner
circles would engage in a conspiracy that would give them a life sentence
in
the likely event that it would be uncovered


there are many historical examples of just that kind of activity


in fact
there are many well-documented historical examples
of the american government participating in that kind of activity


south-east asia
south america


hell
operation gladio lasted well into the late 70's - early 80's
in industrialised first-world italy
with a number of false flag operations in their "strategy of tension"


american paramilitary units
have been very real for a very long time


it is not crazy to hypothesise
that past observations may explain current events


that is what science is all about


i never understand this "common sense"
that denies well-observed and documented events
and belittles investigation


explain to me which of the above examples have resulted in a charge of mass
murder of Americans against the top echelon in the administration

None. Even on the Wikipedia article that galathaea cites, there is a
lot of "alleged" and "allegedly". There is also a great deal of
speculation, mostly of an extreme left-wing nature (not to put too
fine a point on it).
BTW, charges of mass murder are rampant in cases where there is no
evidence (JFK assassination, Pearl Harbor, 911), but there are no
charges in cases where the evidence is overwhelming (Nazi extermiation
of Jews, Stalin's crimes, Khmer Rouge murder of 1/4 of Cambodia -
sorry "Democratic Kampuchea" - in 4 years, Vietcong/NVA atrocities in
Hue, etc.)
Has anyone noticed that the posters who most fervently believe in
these "conspiracies" are precisely the SAME posters who believe that
SR and QM are conspiracies, that the Holocaust never happened?
That these are the same posters who are unable to solve a simple
physics motion problem?
The same posters who barely graduated high school?






-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

.
User: "galathaea"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 24 May 2007 06:37:48 PM
On May 24, 2:34 pm, The_Man <me_so_hornee...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On May 24, 5:19 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

"galathaea" <galath...@gmail.com> wrote in message


news:1180035191.479275.201230@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...


On May 22, 12:38 pm, "David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
[...]

Yes plenty of science for sure. Very short of common sense however.
You would have to be a lunatic to think that so many people in the inner
circles would engage in a conspiracy that would give them a life sentence
in
the likely event that it would be uncovered


there are many historical examples of just that kind of activity


in fact
there are many well-documented historical examples
of the american government participating in that kind of activity


south-east asia
south america


hell
operation gladio lasted well into the late 70's - early 80's
in industrialised first-world italy
with a number of false flag operations in their "strategy of tension"


american paramilitary units
have been very real for a very long time


it is not crazy to hypothesise
that past observations may explain current events


that is what science is all about


i never understand this "common sense"
that denies well-observed and documented events
and belittles investigation


explain to me which of the above examples have resulted in a charge of mass
murder of Americans against the top echelon in the administration


None. Even on the Wikipedia article that galathaea cites, there is a
lot of "alleged" and "allegedly". There is also a great deal of
speculation, mostly of an extreme left-wing nature (not to put too
fine a point on it).

BTW, charges of mass murder are rampant in cases where there is no
evidence (JFK assassination, Pearl Harbor, 911), but there are no
charges in cases where the evidence is overwhelming (Nazi extermiation
of Jews, Stalin's crimes, Khmer Rouge murder of 1/4 of Cambodia -
sorry "Democratic Kampuchea" - in 4 years, Vietcong/NVA atrocities in
Hue, etc.)

Has anyone noticed that the posters who most fervently believe in
these "conspiracies" are precisely the SAME posters who believe that
SR and QM are conspiracies, that the Holocaust never happened?

That these are the same posters who are unable to solve a simple
physics motion problem?
The same posters who barely graduated high school?

wow
you have a brain like dynamite
able to bend reality to appear anyway you like it
i cited a wikipedia article?
operation gladio was discussed in european union meetings
and the italian parliament
and there is legitimate scholarly research on it
but i really liked your ability
to throw a bunch of unrelated and unsubstantiated charges at me
do you enjoy lying to yourself or does it take effort?
i know i couldn't so easily forget experienced evidence
for the constructions of my wishes, hopes, and dreams
but then i probably haven't had your years of practice
for the record
i think the holocaust was a Bad Idea (tm)
and that millions with many beliefs were exterminated
also
relativistic quantum field theory
is the most validated scientific theory we have ever constructed
though we will need to change some things
to get it to work with gravity
why is it that "debunkers"
always have the most tenuous relationships with experience?
is it because they have chosen a "goal"
to "prove" a given position is wrong
without appeal to investigation or science?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
User: "proehling"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 24 May 2007 07:21:50 PM
"galathaea" <galathaea@gmail.com> wrote

why is it that "debunkers"
always have the most tenuous relationships with experience?

Uh, they don't. That's why the overwhelming majority of professionals whose
specialities overlap in areas such as engineering, fire-control,
law-enforcement, military demolition and architecture all agree that there
is no reason to suspect that the WTC collapse was due to anything but the
aircraft crashes and the resulting fires. (Unless, of course, you want to
believe that that huge majority are all involved in the massive cover-up
that would have *had* to have taken place were there ever a real plot. And
if you *do* believe that, I can make you a real deal on a "I'm paranoid. But
am I paranoid enough?" tee-shirt. One size fits all screwballs.)

is it because they have chosen a "goal"
to "prove" a given position is wrong
without appeal to investigation or science?

No. No more than the fact that professional bioligists almost universally
agree that evolution is a real and ongoing process. They agree on that
because all the scientific evidence they have seen supports that conclusion,
just like the professionals named above all agree that the evidence in the
WTC case points overwhelmingly to the destruction of the buildings being due
to perfectly obvious reasons.
But hey, why let common sense get in the way of a perfectly good psychosis?
.
User: "JMW"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 25 May 2007 12:08:22 AM
"proehling" <peter_roehling@eee.org> wrote:


"galathaea" <galathaea@gmail.com> wrote


is it because they have chosen a "goal"
to "prove" a given position is wrong
without appeal to investigation or science?


No. No more than the fact that professional bioligists almost universally
agree that evolution is a real and ongoing process. They agree on that
because all the scientific evidence they have seen supports that conclusion,
just like the professionals named above all agree that the evidence in the
WTC case points overwhelmingly to the destruction of the buildings being due
to perfectly obvious reasons.

But hey, why let common sense get in the way of a perfectly good psychosis?

You make an excellent point. Sometimes these loons sound just like
the fundamentalist Christians who claim they have "proven" creationist
theory.
.
User: "proehling"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 25 May 2007 12:55:40 AM
"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote

But hey, why let common sense get in the way of a perfectly good
psychosis?


You make an excellent point. Sometimes these loons sound just like
the fundamentalist Christians who claim they have "proven" creationist
theory.

For good reason. Both they -and many other nut-groups such as the "We never
landed on the Moon" and the "Flat-Earthers"- all share the same pathology:
it's called "Owning The Truth".
See www.ocdonline.com/articlephillipson6.php if you're interested in the
gory details, but suffice it to say that some people get a tremendous ego
boost from believing that they're privy to some sort of special
"inside"information, the knowledge of which sets them apart from -and
above- mere ordinary humans.
In fact, this "secret knowledge" makes them feel *so* good that they will
frequently construct an entire pathological belief-system inside their own
heads: a system that is designed to automatically exclude any incoming
information that might shake their beliefs. (Denial)
Arguing with such a person is like arguing with a mirror: there really isn't
anyone else in the room, so why bother?
.
User: "JMW"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 25 May 2007 01:44:25 AM
"proehling" <peter_roehling@eee.org> wrote:


"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote

But hey, why let common sense get in the way of a perfectly good
psychosis?


You make an excellent point. Sometimes these loons sound just like
the fundamentalist Christians who claim they have "proven" creationist
theory.


For good reason. Both they -and many other nut-groups such as the "We never
landed on the Moon" and the "Flat-Earthers"- all share the same pathology:
it's called "Owning The Truth".

See www.ocdonline.com/articlephillipson6.php

If you check Google, you'll probably find that I was the first one who
posted a link to that page. I have a stong suspicion that not only
does Henry suffer from OCPD, but that he has also been diagnosed with
it in the past. There has always been an uncharacteristic
non-response when I have mentioned it previously.
.
User: "Henry"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 30 May 2007 07:06:02 PM
JMW wrote:

"proehling" <peter_roehling@eee.org> wrote:

"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
For good reason. Both they -and many other nut-groups such as the "We never
landed on the Moon" and the "Flat-Earthers"- all share the same pathology:
it's called "Owning The Truth".
See www.ocdonline.com/articlephillipson6.php


If you check Google, you'll probably find that I was the first one who
posted a link to that page.

Suggested reading by your therapists, no doubt. Perhaps you
and psycho Pete are using the same one.
At any rate, your mental illness is not the subject here. The
subject is the 9-11 attacks and the proved complicity of the
Bush regime. You and psycho Pete should share your mental
health problems in another thread.
Look at the height of WTC7:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/9-11%20Picture1.jpg
Then look at how it collapsed:
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
Small random fires can't possibly make a steel framed building
do that. Not even a raging inferno can cause a steel building to
do anything even remotely close to that. Only a very well executed
controlled demolition can cause the total, instant, and symmetric
failure of all steel support columns that took place in WTC7.
That was very solidly braced and virtually undamaged steel frame.
It was dramatically over engineered to withstand hurricane force
winds and mild earth quakes. Look at the still photos at 1 second
intervals. The building stays perfectly straight and level all the
way down. Every one of the 58 steel perimeter columns failed at
exactly the same time, and they all failed totally, putting up
essentially zero resistance. That's proved by the collapse time of
6.6 seconds compared to 6 seconds free fall. The southwest corner
of WTC7 was damaged by debris from the north tower, and there were
small random fires in the building, although it's anyone's guess how
they were ignited. But asymmetric damage and random fires don't cause
steel framed buildings to collapse even slowly and asymmetrically.
More expert analysis on the demolition of WTC7 can be found here:
http://11syyskuu.blogspot.com/2006/02/destruction-of-wtc-7.html
This is what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging
infernos for hours on end.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html
As you can see, these steel framed structures suffered gradual
deformation, but nothing even remotely close to a total symmetric
and free fall speed collapse - and those fires were far hotter
and of much longer duration than the small, isolated fires in
WTC7.
Twin Towers:
The massive reserve strength designed into the steel frames of
the towers could not possibly have been overcome by the force
of gravity alone. The fact that it was exceeded to such an
extreme degree that the undamaged steel frame offered no
measurable resistance, proves conclusively that the lower
structures were destroyed before being impacted by the upper
structures.
From:
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060327100957690
"The Twin Towers and Why They Fell
It would help to begin with an accurate description of the WTC towers
in terms of quality of design and construction. In July of 1971, the
American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) presented a national award
judging the buildings to be "the engineering project that demonstrates
the greatest engineering skills and represents the greatest
contribution to engineering progress and mankind."3 Others noted that
"the World Trade Center towers would have an inherent capacity to
resist unforeseen calamities." This capacity stemmed from the use of
special high-strength steels. In particular, the perimeter columns
were designed with tremendous reserve strength whereby "live loads on
these columns can be increased more than 2,000% before failure occurs.
More on the incredible strength of the towers can be found here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html
"There is evidence that the Twin Towers were designed with an even
greater measure of reserve strength than typical large buildings.
According to the calculations of engineers who worked on the Towers'
design, all the columns on one side of a Tower could be cut, as well
as the two corners and some of the columns on each adjacent side, and
the building would still be strong enough to withstand a
100-mile-per-hour wind. 3"
The massive steel frames of the towers were far too strong to
collapse only under their own weight. That's been proved through
physics, and that's why no other steel framed buildings have ever
collapsed that way unless they were demolished. See Gordon Ross'
excellent paper on momentum transfer on this page:
http://worldtradecentertruth.com/
As common sense would dictate, even if all the perimeter and
core columns near the top of the tower were somehow destroyed
simultaneously so that the top 20 stories or so dropped onto the
remaining undamaged frame, after some bending and compression,
the collapse would have stopped, or the upper block would have
fallen off to the side. Gordon Ross proves that with physics.
The official conspiracy requires us to believe that falling
directly =through= the massive undamaged steel frames, including
the 47 interconnected central core columns:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html
provided little more resistance than air. This is proved by
the fact that debris falling outside the towers hit the ground
about the same time as the debris falling through the towers.
Making the government's conspiracy theory even more implausible,
is the fact that the steel at the top of the towers was over
ten times lighter and thinner than the undamaged steel in the
lower section. Look at the massive core column cross section in
the bottom photo.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html
The official conspiracy theory says that crushing 47 of those
columns, all interconnected with even more steel, =and= destroying
all the perimeter columns, =and= "pancaking" all the floors, and
stairways, produced about the same kinetic friction as falling
though air. That, of course, is not physically possible.
Observe the rotating and disintegrating block on the South
Tower.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp4.html
Notice that the corners are curved, as the block's internal
destruction is already taking place. If it had not been destroyed
through demolition, it would have continued to rotate and fall off
the building as an intact block. Also, notice that the block is
tilting towards the corner where it was impacted. The opposite
corner was undamaged by impact or fire, as proved by photo
evidence.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp1.html
As the top section of that tower is rotating, the high strength,
fire resistant perimeter columns on one side of the building are
being compressed, and on the opposite side, where the building
was not damaged by fire or impact, the weight above them is greatly
reduced.
Why do you think the undamaged steel perimeter frame with reduced
weight above it is exploding and collapsing at the same rate as
the fire and impact damaged side that has most of the weight of the
rotating block on it? Seems more than a little odd, doesn't it? Here's
some information on the perimeter columns.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/perimeter.html
Now watch the video titled, "Close-up of South Tower collapse
on this page:
http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse%20update/#videos
That's not gradual bending and buckling of an over heated steel
frame. Those are huge explosions not unlike those we see in a
controlled demolition. Keep in mind that this is at the onset of
the collapse, so nothing is falling quickly at this point.
More good information on 9-11 can be found here:
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html
--
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://stj911.org
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html
http://www.911truth.org
Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed
to raging infernos for hours on end.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html
On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which
had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry
at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled
demolition.
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm
Ever wonder who benefits from the 300 MILLION
U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21
"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...
.


User: "Henry"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 30 May 2007 07:01:17 PM
p "I'm not psychotic at all" roehling wrote:

"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote

But hey, why let common sense get in the way of a perfectly good
psychosis?

You make an excellent point. Sometimes these loons sound just like
the fundamentalist Christians who claim they have "proven" creationist
theory.

For good reason. Both they -and many other nut-groups such as the "We never
landed on the Moon" and the "Flat-Earthers"- all share the same pathology:
it's called "Owning The Truth".

What's really strange, is that they put their blind faith in
known government liars at the expense of experts, science,
physics, logic, precedent, and reality. For these loons,
government is their religion, and government propaganda is
their bible. In some ways, their blind faith, ignorance, and
stupidity is worse than that of their flat-earth predecessors.
Look at the height of WTC7:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/9-11%20Picture1.jpg
Then look at how it collapsed:
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
Small random fires can't possibly make a steel framed building
do that. Not even a raging inferno can cause a steel building to
do anything even remotely close to that. Only a very well executed
controlled demolition can cause the total, instant, and symmetric
failure of all steel support columns that took place in WTC7.
That was very solidly braced and virtually undamaged steel frame.
It was dramatically over engineered to withstand hurricane force
winds and mild earth quakes. Look at the still photos at 1 second
intervals. The building stays perfectly straight and level all the
way down. Every one of the 58 steel perimeter columns failed at
exactly the same time, and they all failed totally, putting up
essentially zero resistance. That's proved by the collapse time of
6.6 seconds compared to 6 seconds free fall. The southwest corner
of WTC7 was damaged by debris from the north tower, and there were
small random fires in the building, although it's anyone's guess how
they were ignited. But asymmetric damage and random fires don't cause
steel framed buildings to collapse even slowly and asymmetrically.
More expert analysis on the demolition of WTC7 can be found here:
http://11syyskuu.blogspot.com/2006/02/destruction-of-wtc-7.html
This is what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging
infernos for hours on end.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html
As you can see, these steel framed structures suffered gradual
deformation, but nothing even remotely close to a total symmetric
and free fall speed collapse - and those fires were far hotter
and of much longer duration than the small, isolated fires in
WTC7.
Twin Towers:
The massive reserve strength designed into the steel frames of
the towers could not possibly have been overcome by the force
of gravity alone. The fact that it was exceeded to such an
extreme degree that the undamaged steel frame offered no
measurable resistance, proves conclusively that the lower
structures were destroyed before being impacted by the upper
structures.
From:
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060327100957690
"The Twin Towers and Why They Fell
It would help to begin with an accurate description of the WTC towers
in terms of quality of design and construction. In July of 1971, the
American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) presented a national award
judging the buildings to be "the engineering project that demonstrates
the greatest engineering skills and represents the greatest
contribution to engineering progress and mankind."3 Others noted that
"the World Trade Center towers would have an inherent capacity to
resist unforeseen calamities." This capacity stemmed from the use of
special high-strength steels. In particular, the perimeter columns
were designed with tremendous reserve strength whereby "live loads on
these columns can be increased more than 2,000% before failure occurs.
More on the incredible strength of the towers can be found here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html
"There is evidence that the Twin Towers were designed with an even
greater measure of reserve strength than typical large buildings.
According to the calculations of engineers who worked on the Towers'
design, all the columns on one side of a Tower could be cut, as well
as the two corners and some of the columns on each adjacent side, and
the building would still be strong enough to withstand a
100-mile-per-hour wind. 3"
The massive steel frames of the towers were far too strong to
collapse only under their own weight. That's been proved through
physics, and that's why no other steel framed buildings have ever
collapsed that way unless they were demolished. See Gordon Ross'
excellent paper on momentum transfer on this page:
http://worldtradecentertruth.com/
As common sense would dictate, even if all the perimeter and
core columns near the top of the tower were somehow destroyed
simultaneously so that the top 20 stories or so dropped onto the
remaining undamaged frame, after some bending and compression,
the collapse would have stopped, or the upper block would have
fallen off to the side. Gordon Ross proves that with physics.
The official conspiracy requires us to believe that falling
directly =through= the massive undamaged steel frames, including
the 47 interconnected central core columns:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html
provided little more resistance than air. This is proved by
the fact that debris falling outside the towers hit the ground
about the same time as the debris falling through the towers.
Making the government's conspiracy theory even more implausible,
is the fact that the steel at the top of the towers was over
ten times lighter and thinner than the undamaged steel in the
lower section. Look at the massive core column cross section in
the bottom photo.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html
The official conspiracy theory says that crushing 47 of those
columns, all interconnected with even more steel, =and= destroying
all the perimeter columns, =and= "pancaking" all the floors, and
stairways, produced about the same kinetic friction as falling
though air. That, of course, is not physically possible.
Observe the rotating and disintegrating block on the South
Tower.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp4.html
Notice that the corners are curved, as the block's internal
destruction is already taking place. If it had not been destroyed
through demolition, it would have continued to rotate and fall off
the building as an intact block. Also, notice that the block is
tilting towards the corner where it was impacted. The opposite
corner was undamaged by impact or fire, as proved by photo
evidence.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp1.html
As the top section of that tower is rotating, the high strength,
fire resistant perimeter columns on one side of the building are
being compressed, and on the opposite side, where the building
was not damaged by fire or impact, the weight above them is greatly
rediced.
Why do you think the undamaged steel perimeter frame with reduced
weight above it is exploding and collapsing at the same rate as
the fire and impact damaged side that has most of the weight of the
rotating block on it? Seems more than a little odd, doesn't it? Here's
some information on the perimeter columns.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/perimeter.html
Now watch the video titled, "Close-up of South Tower collapse
on this page:
http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse%20update/#videos
That's not gradual bending and buckling of an over heated steel
frame. Those are huge explosions not unlike those we see in a
controlled demolition. Keep in mind that this is at the onset of
the collapse, so nothing is falling quickly at this point.
More good information on 9-11 can be found here:
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html
--
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://stj911.org
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html
http://www.911truth.org
Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed
to raging infernos for hours on end.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html
On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which
had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry
at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled
demolition.
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm
Ever wonder who benefits from the 300 MILLION
U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21
"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...
.


User: "Henry"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 30 May 2007 06:58:36 PM
JMW wrote:

"proehling" <peter "I'm not psychotic at all" roehling wrote:

But hey, why let common sense get in the way of a perfectly good psychosis?

You make an excellent point. Sometimes these loons sound just like
the fundamentalist Christians who claim they have "proven" creationist
theory.

What's really amazing, is that these loons mindlessly parrot the
impossible cartoon conspiracy of people with a long history of
lying, and a clear incentive to lie. Only those closely affiliated
with Bush regime have benefited from the 9-11 attacks, and they
even stated in writing that they needed a "New Pearl Harbor.
Yet the loons continue to ignore and deny the laws of physics,
the research of experts, the testimony of eyewitnesses, the hard
evidence, and realty. The power of government propaganda is really
quite amazing.
--
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://stj911.org
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html
http://www.911truth.org
Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed
to raging infernos for hours on end.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html
On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which
had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry
at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled
demolition.
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm
Ever wonder who benefits from the 300 MILLION
U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21
"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...
.


User: "galathaea"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 24 May 2007 08:27:27 PM
On May 24, 5:21 pm, "proehling" <peter_roehl...@eee.org> wrote:

"galathaea" <galath...@gmail.com> wrote

why is it that "debunkers"
always have the most tenuous relationships with experience?


Uh, they don't.

you know
that is the perfect answer
i couldn't have asked you to more clearly illustrate my point
of course
i shouldn't have used "always" there
as i was just apeing the certainty of the_man's "argument"
and i could have been savaged for such absolutism
but instead
you ignored that
and you ignored that i had just illustrated a number of issues
of mistaken reality
and continued on full force against evidence
that is the antiscience you are helping illustrate so finely

That's why the overwhelming majority of professionals whose
specialities overlap in areas such as engineering, fire-control,
law-enforcement, military demolition and architecture all agree that there
is no reason to suspect that the WTC collapse was due to anything but the
aircraft crashes and the resulting fires. (Unless, of course, you want to
believe that that huge majority are all involved in the massive cover-up
that would have *had* to have taken place were there ever a real plot. And
if you *do* believe that, I can make you a real deal on a "I'm paranoid. But
am I paranoid enough?" tee-shirt. One size fits all screwballs.)

actually
the overwhelming majority of professionals whose fields so overlap
have said nothing
a vocal minority have mentioned their views on both sides
i can give references for both sides
but i have a suspicion you may not be interested in evidence

is it because they have chosen a "goal"
to "prove" a given position is wrong
without appeal to investigation or science?


No.

and here you just completely ignore the_man's major examples otherwise
ignore
ignore
ignore-ance

No more than the fact that professional bioligists almost universally
agree that evolution is a real and ongoing process. They agree on that
because all the scientific evidence they have seen supports that conclusion,
just like the professionals named above all agree that the evidence in the
WTC case points overwhelmingly to the destruction of the buildings being due
to perfectly obvious reasons.

again
perfect example
darwinism has been immensely successful
and the neodarwinian dogma has propounded
that the passage of information is always germ line to somatic
except that evidence for epigenetic influences
started being found in experiments in the late sixties
and really started to be explored by the eighties
additionally
retroviruses and other critters
started showing physical mechanisms for affecting the germ line
of course
many
even "professionals" with many degrees
began to attack the researchers making such discoveries
even as some of these "neolamarckian" mechanisms
became more and more validated in the library
the shrill attacks grew louder
and regularly turned to personal attacks
ridicule
and other antiscience
i see you have a similar approach to antiscience

But hey, why let common sense get in the way of a perfectly good psychosis?

again
the common sense as an avoidance of research
and a good jab in there for flavor
you will notice i have not said anywhere i believe 9/11 was an inside
job
i am an agnostic
i don't believe in belief
i have only argued that
IT REALLY IS ACCEPTABLE TO HYPOTHESISE AND RESEARCH
you seem to find that a psychosis
that says a lot about you
but so does your avoidances noted earlier
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
User: "proehling"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 24 May 2007 09:30:52 PM
"galathaea" <galathaea@gmail.com> wrote

why is it that "debunkers"
always have the most tenuous relationships with experience?


Uh, they don't.


you know

that is the perfect answer

i couldn't have asked you to more clearly illustrate my point

You're an idiot. You made a claim that was patently untrue (see above), and
I pointed out that you had done so.
If you can't cope with the consequenses of your own statements, you need to
find a nice quiet room somewhere and hide there until you grow up.
If, on the other hand, you actually believe what you wrote, you're as
psychotic as Hen3ry.

of course
i shouldn't have used "always" there
as i was just apeing the certainty of the_man's "argument"
and i could have been savaged for such absolutism

but instead
you ignored that
and you ignored that i had just illustrated a number of issues
of mistaken reality
and continued on full force against evidence

that is the antiscience you are helping illustrate so finely

Idiot, I scored 168 the last time I ran through the Stanford-Binet tests and
taught at the University of California for twelve years.
And you? (The guy who never even learned what capitol letters and periods
were for?)

actually
the overwhelming majority of professionals whose fields so overlap
have said nothing

*****.

a vocal minority have mentioned their views on both sides

i can give references for both sides
but i have a suspicion you may not be interested in evidence

I'm not interested in what *you* think of as evidence, any more than the
National Academy of Science is interested in looking at the "evidence" for
Creationism as presented by Creationists: and for exactly the same reasons.
You have to have some credibility *before* you enter an argument if you
expect people to do anything but heap you with ridicule.
You have none.
And at the rate you're going, you never will.
(Snip several paragraphs of drool.)
.
User: "Henry"

Title: Re: it really is acceptable to hypothesise and research 30 May 2007 07:00:31 PM
p "I'm not psychotic at all" roehling wrote:

"galathaea" <galathaea@gmail.com> wrote

why is it that "debunkers"
always have the most tenuous relationships with experience?

Uh, they don't.

you know
that is the perfect answer
i couldn't have asked you to more clearly illustrate my point

You're an idiot.

Very well researched and intelligent rebuttal, Pete.
You prove the man's point nicely.

of course
i shouldn't have used "always" there
as i was just apeing the certainty of the_man's "argument"
and i could have been savaged for such absolutism

but instead
you ignored that
and you ignored that i had just illustrated a number of issues
of mistaken reality
and continued on full force against evidence

that is the antiscience you are helping illustrate so finely

Idiot, I scored 168 the last time I ran through the Stanford-Binet tests

You know, Pete, if you would stop your juvenile, hysterical name
calling and address the facts, someone might actually take you
seriously. But when all you can do is scream that you're not psychotic
and brag about some test score while hiding and cowering form the
hard evidence and facts, you will rightfully be dismissed by
your many betters as an ignorant and mentally unstable fool.
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://stj911.org
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html
http://www.911truth.org
Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed
to raging infernos for hours on end.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html
On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which
had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry
at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled
demolition.
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm
Ever wonder who benefits from the 300 MILLION
U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21
"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...
.

User: "galathaea"

Title: earnest research 26 May 2007 07:55:47 PM
the first scientific models
probably were those of bazant and zhou
they proposed the column collapse theory
which held that if one floor loses enough core column strength
possibly due the crash and fires
then that was enough to instigate a progressive collapse
in structures like the world trade towers
this is based on a basic inequality
if the energy released from the falling masses potential
during the fall of one story from rest
is greater than the energy used to pulverise and snap
the major structural supports enough to initiate lower story collapse
then the paper asserts
since next iterations mass and kinetic energy will be larger
it too will have enough energy to initiate lower story collapse
in the world trade towers
the center columns were the major structural support
and so if fire and collision were to lower
the central column's strength so one floor collapses
and that causes the impact to start another floor collapse
the process is necessarily complete
in their model
there is a basic separation into two components
an upper and lower
-----------
| | upper
| XXx |
XxxXXxxXXXxxx
XxXx XX Xx
| |
| |
| | lower
. .
. .
the lower response upon impact from upper
is modeled as a stiff spring
of stiffness approximately 71 GN/m
approximated from strength of lower columns
for the north tower 7
they calculate the upper mass as 5.8 x 10 kg
and make two calculations of overload ratios
at greatest 3.7m downward displacement on the stiff spring
an overload of 31
and initial impact overload of 64.5
whereas building infrastructure was built for 3-6 overload tolerance
( they state 2 and have been criticised for this biasing error )
however
in their fall time calculations
they discounted plastic energy losses
neglected all pulverisation energies
and neglected losses of mass from the upper section
from pulverisation and blowout
their initiation hypothesis requires at least 800 C temperatures
across the entire floor of collapse
which clifton and others have debated
and the fall will not distribute the load of the upper
in a single impact to spring response after the first floor collapses
as modeled in the paper
but crushes the bottom and distributes over an interval
cherepanov has shown that even excluding the plastic losses
even the standard pancake iterations must have geometric factors
of between '\/3 and greater to the fall time
and can be excluded by existing evidence of fall time
he suggests fracture waves
which would convert the initial impact into a progression of damage
that could effectively remove the dissipating forces
however
this model predicts a leading fracture pulverisation
and cherepanov incorrectly argues that this
would allow the building to collapse in the near free fall regime
the error is that the energetics still rob from kinetic
and much does not occur until we see it
any global impulse shattering is not seen
pulverisation process occur throughout the collapse
that energetic is taken from kinetic
no simulations using the accuracy of
for instance
sebastian and mcconnel's semiempirical finite element models
of steel, concrete, and composite structural elements
have been able to account such energetics and time-to-fall
it does not matter what mechanism of destruction is used
ultimately the fall time is purely an energetic calculation
a delta from initial to final state
that is why it is an interesting scientific mystery
to account for the collapse speed of the towers
&&&&&&&&&&&..
but the towers are only the more spectacular collapses of the day
and not the most interesting technologically
the fire safety journal has run a number of articles over the years
of tests at the cardington laboratory in bedfordshire
this facility features an 8-story steel building structure
on which fire tests are regularly performed
beam strengths at various temperatures are measures
slab response is observed
in october of last year for instance
wald, simoes da silva, moore, lennon, chladna, santiago, benes, and borges
reported on some local collapse tests
that have been suggesting that the physical structures
are performing better against fire than standard models
extreme temperatures of 1150 C were reached without local collapse
wtc7 has not had a published simulation for its collapse
yet it is a much more common and basic design
an october 2003 fire safety journal paper by usmani, chung, and torero
about some 2-d models of initiation for the tower collapses
mentions
" Although the Twin Towers themselves had sustained considerable
structural damage, WTC 7 which had not, also collapsed (being
the first recorded case of the collapse of such a structure
entirely because of fire). This poor response from composite
steel frame structures is not in accordance with the findings
of Cardington [1]. "
it is wtc7 that provides the most relevant information to engineers
because it is buildings like wtc7 that are more commonly built
yet most of the events of its collapse are unaccounted for
progressive collapse phenomena in steel frame buildings
has almost always initiated locally to a section
in small buildings with only one load bearing section
this is equivalent to complete collapse
but in larger structures this often means
only that local section collapses progressively through its vertical load
there are many examples from bombing and other concussive attacks
like the murray building in oklahoma
of these sectional failures
and even the two towers can be seen as single sectional collapses
due to the monofloor structure
when the progressive collapse is complete across multiple sections
this usually proceeds through a wave of sectional collapses
one section falls providing asymmetric loading
causing the neighboring section to then fall
and these progressions of sectional collapses
continue in a wave across the structure
a sudden complete catastrophic failure
for these common construction steel skeletons
is unknown outside wtc7 and unsimulated
earthquake and hurricane regularly produce only localised structural damage
in structures greater then 5 stories
and although there have been a number of lower level structure breakages
sometimes overturning the entire building
and collapsing it into neighbors
there is normally the major portion of skeleton still intact
even dissertations with good review of the field
like ruangtananurak nara's dissertation for the university of tsukuba
describes only local mechanisms for possible failures
where progressive collapse again occurs in sections
as observed outside wtc7
global analyses have so far failed to describe what was observed
|
~~~~~~~~~~..
there are legitimate structural engineering questions
still unanswered from the tragedies of the 11th, september 2001
and despite a vocal group who regularly attack questioning the collapse theories
there are major scientific and technological reasons to continue the questions
and there is even a greater reason why it is important to follow the debate
outside the research community
this is because there have been theories that do describe the collapses
those theories describe intentional collapse mechanism
through the use of explosives
which easily accounts all energetics
and it becomes extremely important to consider such possibilities
when it may be factions in the american government behind such mechanisms
this is something americans need seriously consider
is our government out of our control?
will our government work against us?
other governments get out of their populace's control
all the time
they are the aristocracies
the theocracies
the dictator monarchs
the privileged
americans cannot pretend that such investigations are foolish
or "crazy"
"unthinkable"
they happen
often
and operations like gladio show our government may hurt our friends
and ones we didn't know we were supposed to hate
and fund terrorist groups we were allegedly against
like the contras and the other bush
and now with many leaks of greater population surveillance
and greater use of marketing and propaganda
intentional misdirections regularly revealed
that indicate an us-them positioning by government structures
the comparisons with nazification
mostly surround this elitisation process of power
but each are their own distinct approaches to the process
as was stalinisation
showaism
or the yahyaine
things really can get out of our hands
they do often
and vigilance means
whether republican or anarchists or libertarian or guns and dope
all must understand the extent of america's own elitisation
these catastrophes must be investigated through the methods of science
developing mathematical models for prediction
and technology
so citizens can engineer a healthier america
if our air defense was vulnerable that day
what was the mechanism of that vulnerability
and what process changes have been made to resolve the vulnerabilities
and increase robustness of response
it is possible to open up process to inspection
without revealing secret data
that is the point of opensource cryptography
it is possible to investigate many horrible possibilities
without being "paranoid" or "senseless"
it is possible to to try to earnestly understand
when there earnestly are reasons to understand what is going on
is our process breaking?
how can we measure it?
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
User: "quasi"

Title: Re: earnest research 27 May 2007 08:58:25 PM
On Sat, 26 May 2007 17:55:47 -0700, galathaea <galathaea@veawb.coop>
wrote:

the first scientific models
probably were those of bazant and zhou

they proposed the column collapse theory

which held that if one floor loses enough core column strength
possibly due the crash and fires
then that was enough to instigate a progressive collapse
in structures like the world trade towers

this is based on a basic inequality

if the energy released from the falling masses potential
during the fall of one story from rest
is greater than the energy used to pulverise and snap
the major structural supports enough to initiate lower story collapse
then the paper asserts
since next iterations mass and kinetic energy will be larger
it too will have enough energy to initiate lower story collapse

in the world trade towers
the center columns were the major structural support
and so if fire and collision were to lower
the central column's strength so one floor collapses
and that causes the impact to start another floor collapse
the process is necessarily complete

in their model
there is a basic separation into two components
an upper and lower

-----------
| | upper
| XXx |
XxxXXxxXXXxxx
XxXx XX Xx
| |
| |
| | lower
. .
. .

the lower response upon impact from upper
is modeled as a stiff spring
of stiffness approximately 71 GN/m
approximated from strength of lower columns

for the north tower 7
they calculate the upper mass as 5.8 x 10 kg
and make two calculations of overload ratios
at greatest 3.7m downward displacement on the stiff spring
an overload of 31
and initial impact overload of 64.5
whereas building infrastructure was built for 3-6 overload tolerance
( they state 2 and have been criticised for this biasing error )

however
in their fall time calculations
they discounted plastic energy losses
neglected all pulverisation energies
and neglected losses of mass from the upper section
from pulverisation and blowout

their initiation hypothesis requires at least 800 C temperatures
across the entire floor of collapse
which clifton and others have debated

and the fall will not distribute the load of the upper
in a single impact to spring response after the first floor collapses
as modeled in the paper
but crushes the bottom and distributes over an interval

cherepanov has shown that even excluding the plastic losses
even the standard pancake iterations must have geometric factors
of between '\/3 and greater to the fall time
and can be excluded by existing evidence of fall time

he suggests fracture waves
which would convert the initial impact into a progression of damage
that could effectively remove the dissipating forces

however
this model predicts a leading fracture pulverisation
and cherepanov incorrectly argues that this
would allow the building to collapse in the near free fall regime

the error is that the energetics still rob from kinetic
and much does not occur until we see it

any global impulse shattering is not seen

pulverisation process occur throughout the collapse

that energetic is taken from kinetic

no simulations using the accuracy of
for instance
sebastian and mcconnel's semiempirical finite element models
of steel, concrete, and composite structural elements
have been able to account such energetics and time-to-fall

it does not matter what mechanism of destruction is used
ultimately the fall time is purely an energetic calculation
a delta from initial to final state

that is why it is an interesting scientific mystery
to account for the collapse speed of the towers

Yes, the energy required to break the support beams has to come from
somewhere.
If we assume the collapse of the supports for the lower floors is
completely explained by the impact of the falling floors, then the
energy required to break the lower supports must _subtract_ from the
kinetic energy of the falling floors.
Of course, there can be other sources of energy as well. For example,
the fires themselves are certainly a source of energy. Estimates would
be needed for these additional effects.
To my view, it's intuitive that there should have been visible
resistance. The apparent lack of such resistance calls for an
explanation. The analysis should be based on laws of physics, together
with potentially realistic quantitative estimates, as opposed to just
speculative handwaving.
quasi
.
User: "galathaea"

Title: Re: earnest research 28 May 2007 02:23:58 PM
On May 27, 6:58 pm, quasi <q...@null.set> wrote:
[...]

Yes, the energy required to break the support beams has to come from
somewhere.

If we assume the collapse of the supports for the lower floors is
completely explained by the impact of the falling floors, then the
energy required to break the lower supports must _subtract_ from the
kinetic energy of the falling floors.

Of course, there can be other sources of energy as well. For example,
the fires themselves are certainly a source of energy. Estimates would
be needed for these additional effects.

To my view, it's intuitive that there should have been visible
resistance. The apparent lack of such resistance calls for an
explanation. The analysis should be based on laws of physics, together
with potentially realistic quantitative estimates, as opposed to just
speculative handwaving.

i mentioned that i would post some of my basic calculations
and wanted to follow up
i will give some basic calculations for the towers
because those are easiest to find
but my real interest lies
in the many more interesting questions of wtc7
material pulverisation has a simple model
the increase in surface area due to breakage
is linearly proportional to the force needed to break
this type of model is a simple solid-state approximation
based on the observation that outside the atomic regime (>100nm)
area is proportional to the intermolecular bonds that must be broken
for concrete
a value i have seen is 100 J/m^2
when the area created is much larger than the original area
one can take as a first approximation just the total area of
particles created
and focus on getting a good understanding of particle sizes detected
with the assumption that spherical area approximation
gives a good first order term
( and roughness would increase such an estimate )
the mass of a tower's concrete was 7.5 x 10^7 kg
one way to help ensure that calculation does not bias too large
is to only account for the dust found outside the footprint
as that excludes the large pieces that include most of the original
surface area
and helps assure a lower bound
there are many studies on the sizes of these particles
because such data was necessary for the evaluation of health issues
of the mass of concrete
2/3 was in the footprint
and of the remaining third
7% was to 200m but outside footprint
11% was 200m to 400m
19% was 400m to 800m
37% was 800m to 1600m
and 25% was beyond 1600m
so total mass per tower outside 400m is
82% x 1/3 x 7.5 x 10^7 kg = 2.05 x 10^7 kg
it is known that 400m outside the footprint
95% of the dust particles were in the 0.3 to 20 micron range
with median of 3 microns
just taking the median value 3 microns as an initial guess
( accepting that the contributions from lower sizes are much larger
than the corrections from larger sizes
so we are still trying for a lower bound here )
surface area of 3 microns = 4 x pi x ( 3 x 10^(-6) )^2 =
1.13 x 10^(-10) m^2 / particle
and a particle will have volume 4/3 x pi x ( 3 x 10^(-6) )^3 =
1.13 x 10^(-16) m^3 / particle
now the density of concrete is around 1750 kg/m^3
so the volume of concrete in the > 400m region is
2.05 x 10^7 kg / 1750 kg/m^3 = 1.17 x 10^4 m^3
which gives the number of particles as
1.17 x 10^4 m^3 / 1.13 x 10^(-16) m^3/particles =
1.04 x 10^20 particles
and so the total pulverisation energy per tower is
100 J/m^2 x 1.13 x 10^(-10) m^2 / particle x 1.04 x 10^20 particles
=
1.2 x 10^12 J
already this is becoming a problematic calculation
because the potential energy of a tower
with center of mass at half height
is
m x g x h_center = 4.5 x 10^8 kg x 9.8 m/s^2 x 207 m =
9.1 x 10^11 J
and notice that the previous calculation does not account
more than 2/3rds of the actual concrete
or any of the structural steel breakage
or inelastic heating
and so on
i'll post steel numbers in a little while
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
User: "quasi"

Title: Re: earnest research 28 May 2007 04:33:51 PM
On 28 May 2007 12:23:58 -0700, galathaea <galathaea@gmail.com> wrote:

On May 27, 6:58 pm, quasi <q...@null.set> wrote:
[...]

Yes, the energy required to break the support beams has to come from
somewhere.

If we assume the collapse of the supports for the lower floors is
completely explained by the impact of the falling floors, then the
energy required to break the lower supports must _subtract_ from the
kinetic energy of the falling floors.

Of course, there can be other sources of energy as well. For example,
the fires themselves are certainly a source of energy. Estimates would
be needed for these additional effects.

To my view, it's intuitive that there should have been visible
resistance. The apparent lack of such resistance calls for an
explanation. The analysis should be based on laws of physics, together
with potentially realistic quantitative estimates, as opposed to just
speculative handwaving.


i mentioned that i would post some of my basic calculations
and wanted to follow up

i will give some basic calculations for the towers
because those are easiest to find
but my real interest lies
in the many more interesting questions of wtc7

material pulverisation has a simple model

the increase in surface area due to breakage
is linearly proportional to the force needed to break

this type of model is a simple solid-state approximation
based on the observation that outside the atomic regime (>100nm)
area is proportional to the intermolecular bonds that must be broken

for concrete
a value i have seen is 100 J/m^2

when the area created is much larger than the original area
one can take as a first approximation just the total area of
particles created
and focus on getting a good understanding of particle sizes detected
with the assumption that spherical area approximation
gives a good first order term
( and roughness would increase such an estimate )

the mass of a tower's concrete was 7.5 x 10^7 kg

one way to help ensure that calculation does not bias too large
is to only account for the dust found outside the footprint
as that excludes the large pieces that include most of the original
surface area
and helps assure a lower bound

there are many studies on the sizes of these particles
because such data was necessary for the evaluation of health issues

of the mass of concrete
2/3 was in the footprint
and of the remaining third
7% was to 200m but outside footprint
11% was 200m to 400m
19% was 400m to 800m
37% was 800m to 1600m
and 25% was beyond 1600m

so total mass per tower outside 400m is

82% x 1/3 x 7.5 x 10^7 kg = 2.05 x 10^7 kg

it is known that 400m outside the footprint
95% of the dust particles were in the 0.3 to 20 micron range
with median of 3 microns

just taking the median value 3 microns as an initial guess
( accepting that the contributions from lower sizes are much larger
than the corrections from larger sizes
so we are still trying for a lower bound here )

surface area of 3 microns = 4 x pi x ( 3 x 10^(-6) )^2 =

1.13 x 10^(-10) m^2 / particle

and a particle will have volume 4/3 x pi x ( 3 x 10^(-6) )^3 =

1.13 x 10^(-16) m^3 / particle

now the density of concrete is around 1750 kg/m^3

so the volume of concrete in the > 400m region is

2.05 x 10^7 kg / 1750 kg/m^3 = 1.17 x 10^4 m^3

which gives the number of particles as
1.17 x 10^4 m^3 / 1.13 x 10^(-16) m^3/particles =

1.04 x 10^20 particles

and so the total pulverisation energy per tower is

100 J/m^2 x 1.13 x 10^(-10) m^2 / particle x 1.04 x 10^20 particles
=

1.2 x 10^12 J

already this is becoming a problematic calculation
because the potential energy of a tower
with center of mass at half height
is

m x g x h_center = 4.5 x 10^8 kg x 9.8 m/s^2 x 207 m =

9.1 x 10^11 J

and notice that the previous calculation does not account
more than 2/3rds of the actual concrete
or any of the structural steel breakage
or inelastic heating
and so on

The above are some very concrete calculations (just kidding).
But seriously ...
I'm not qualified to judge either the quantitative estimates or the
calculations, but this is the type of analysis that's needed to help
resolve the controversy.
However let me see if I understand the gist of it ...
(1) You make rough estimates for the amount of concrete pulverized and
dispersed, stratified by distance.
(2) Base on those estimates, you then estimate the energy required to
accomplish such the pulverization as approximately 1.2 x 10^12 J.
(3) You then estimate the potential (gravitational) energy of the
tower as approximately 9.1 x 10^11 J
So the immediate problem, based on your estimates, is that the
available potential energy is not enough to accomplish the
pulverization. But those numbers are roughly the same order of
magnitude. Still, even if we ignore the above deficit, there would be
no energy left to do anything else (for example, breaking the steel
beams).

i'll post steel numbers in a little while

If the formulas require division, brace for some tough calculations --
dividing steel numbers can be difficult.
quasi
.
User: "galathaea"

Title: Re: earnest research 30 May 2007 02:50:55 AM
On May 28, 2:33 pm, quasi <q...@null.set> wrote:

On 28 May 2007 12:23:58 -0700, galathaea <galath...@gmail.com> wrote:

i'll post steel numbers in a little while

steel is similar to concrete
but there is deformation to consider
in particular
one must account
- breaking of steel exterior columns
- bending/deformation of steel exterior columns
- breaking of steel interior core columns
- bending/deformation of steel interior core columns
- breaking of steel floor structure
- bending/deformation of steel floor structure
wierzbicki has given the value
6.19 x 10^7 J/m^2
as a typical value for the steel used
( there were actually 12 grades used
with a distribution of 30-100 ksi
but distributed asymmetrically throughout )
for the exterior columns at 0.0184 m^2 crossection
we can take this as best case transverse breakage
at 1.14 x 10^6 J/column
now the estimates i have seen
greenings for instance
use the assumption that all columns
were broke once every story
there was likely a spread
but i know from pictures
there were not more than a handful
of 2 or 3 story structures
so one story breaks seem a useful starting mean
with the above exterior column energy
and that there are 236 exterior columns
the calculation gives
1.14 x 10^6 J/column x 236 columns/floor x 110 floors
or
2.96 x 10^10 J
similarly for the 47 core columns
at 0.1236 m^2 crossection x 6.19 x 10^7 J/m^2
x 47 columns/floor x 110 floors
3.96 x 10^10 J
to maintain debris size distribution at the story level
for the acre-sized floors
this requires quite a number of breaks
to get pieces averaging 1 floor
with about 480 trussed cells per floor outside the core
if one break is assigned per cell
this gives breaks of about one per story length
the steel is the same grade as the exterior columns
so this is
6.02 x 10^10 J
now it is difficult to estimate deformation energies
but deformations must reach yield forces
just as breaks
and looking at some representatives
http://tinyurl.com/2sq5cp
shows that representative beams did suffer measurable deformation
a very rough estimate can be taken by assuming
given a continuous span of column
it on average been damaged 3 times
by impulses 1/3 required to break
which is a simple visual and energetic model
there are better methods using
semiempirical energy distributions
but this basic heuristics gives a duplication
of all energies calculated so far
2.96 x 10^10 J towards deformations of exterior columns
3.96 x 10^10 J deforming core columns
6.02 x 10^10 J deforming floor trusses
all accounted
the steel energies total
2.59 x 10^11 J
or 28.5% of the potential energy
if we assume breakage that occurs
at angles not completely transverse
and try to take into account the spread of sizes
with smaller sizes contributing more as in concrete
then this may be a good lowerbound
and the actual value will likely be higher
but already again the value seems significant for fall times
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
.
User: "quasi"

Title: Re: earnest research 30 May 200