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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Jeff Relf"
Date: 11 Dec 2003 04:42:48 AM
Object: . Science and Religion .
I argue that our general sense of free will
is due to our ignorance .
So what about creationism and the judgment day ? !
In _ Science , Philosophy , and Religion , A Symposium _ ,
New York , 1941 , Einstein said ,
" If [ God ] is omnipotent , then every occurrence ,
Including every human action , every human thought ,
and Every human feeling and aspiration is also His work ;
How is it possible to think of holding men responsible for
their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being ?
In giving out punishment and rewards he would ,
to a certain extent , be passing judgment on Himself .
How can this be combined with
the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him ?
...
The more a man is imbued with
the ordered regularity of all events
the firmer becomes his conviction that
there is no room left by the side of
this ordered regularity for causes of a different
[ ? Supernatural ] nature . "
Stephen Hawking says , " one has to find
a consistent solution of the equations of physics
...
It would imply that we were completely determined :
we couldn't change our minds . So much for free will . "
In _ Black Holes and Baby Universes _ , 1990 ,
Hawking said , " In summary , the title of this essay
was a question : ' Is everything determined ? '
The answer is yes , it is .
But it might as well not be ,
because we can never know what is determined . "
In Carl Sagan's introduction to Hawking's book
_ A Brief History of Time _ , he said ,
http://bex.nsstc.uah.edu/P494/ss09.html
" This is also a book about God ...
or perhaps about the absence of God .
The word God fills these pages .
Hawking embarks on a quest to answer
Einstein's famous question about
whether God had any choice in creating the universe .
Hawking is attempting , as he explicitly states ,
to understand the mind of God .
And this makes all the more unexpected
the conclusion of the effort , at least so far :
a universe with no edge in space ,
no beginning or end in time ,
and nothing for a Creator to do . "
In three sperate quotes , Hawking said , " One could say :
' The boundary condition of the universe
is that it has no boundary '
The universe would be completely self-contained
and not affected by anything outside itself .
It would neither be created nor destroyed .
It would just Be .
What place , then , for a creator ?
...
In relativity , there is no real distinction between
the space and time coordinates , just as there is
no difference between two space coordinates .
...
Imaginary time is
indistinguishable from directions in space . "
Many physicists and philosophers assume that
that material determinism is absolute .
( Any assumption is a " Faith " , a trust )
Commenting on how natural time is spatial and static ,
Einstein said ,
" The past , present , and future ,
are only illusions , however persistent . "
Hermann Weyl , Einstein's colleague said ,
" The world doesn't happen , it simply is . "
In 1929 , Einstein said , " Everything is determined ,
The beginning as well as the end ,
by forces over which we have no control .
It is determined for the insects as well as the star .
Human beings , vegetables , or cosmic dust ,
We all dance to a mysterious tune
Intoned in the distance by an invisible piper . "
From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02053a.htm
" The theory of Democritus [ Athens , 460 - 370 BC ]
may be summed up in the following propositions :
_ All bodies are composed of atoms
and spaces between the atoms . ...
_ There is no purpose or design in nature ,
and in this sense all is ruled by chance .
( i.e. A mysterious , yet still absolute ,
material determinism )
_ All activity is reduced to local motion . "
.

User: "will e"

Title: Re: . Science and Religion . 11 Dec 2003 09:06:24 PM
"Jeff Relf" <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message
news:1578wqckdhair.dlg@__.Jeff.Relf...

I argue that our general sense of free will
is due to our ignorance .

Our general sense of free will is due to being inner directed. Ignorance is
due to an unlucky draw of DNA.

So what about creationism and the judgment day ? !

In relationship to what?
Will E.
.
User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: . Not very auspicious . 12 Dec 2003 07:07:52 AM
Hello will e ,
Re: " So what about creationism and the judgment day ? "
You ask , " In relationship to what ? "
That question introduced the metaphysics that followed it .
Assuming that natural time is static ...
( As opposed to artificial time ,
which is pseudo directional )
Then creationism and the judgment day
are artificial constructs .
( And merely due to incomplete information ,
not very auspicious )
.


User: "Mark Martin"

Title: Re: . Science and Religion . 11 Dec 2003 10:01:37 AM
Jeff Relf <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message news:<1578wqckdhair.dlg@__.Jeff.Relf>...

I argue that our general sense of free will
is due to our ignorance .

So what about creationism and the judgment day ? !

In _ Science , Philosophy , and Religion , A Symposium _ ,
New York , 1941 , Einstein said...
Stephen Hawking says...
In Carl Sagan's introduction to Hawking's book
_ A Brief History of Time _ , he said...
Many physicists and philosophers assume that...


Commenting on how natural time is spatial and static ,
Einstein said...


Hermann Weyl , Einstein's colleague said...


In 1929 , Einstein said...
From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02053a.htm
" The theory of Democritus [ Athens , 460 - 370 BC ]
may be summed up in the following propositions...

(*yaaaaawn*) As always, many quotes of so & so's opinion, with nary
a hint of robustness within sight. It becomes apparent why you work so
few hours per year. My guess now is that It's because, with such
mighty powers of independent reasoning as yours, you probably can't
program your way out of a zip-lock baggie.
-Mark Martin
.
User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: Re: . Science and Religion . 12 Dec 2003 08:06:20 AM
Hello Mark Martin , You wrote , " you probably can't
program your way out of a zip-lock baggie "
Hmm ... You may be right .
Maybe those young Java programmers will kick my moldy butt .
Like everyone else , I devolve with age . That's just life .
How old are you ?
.
User: "Mark Martin"

Title: Re: . Science and Religion . 12 Dec 2003 08:18:51 PM
Jeff Relf <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message news:<1d5tevhougn5j.dlg@__.Jeff.Relf>...

Hello Mark Martin , You wrote , " you probably can't
program your way out of a zip-lock baggie "

Hmm ... You may be right .

Maybe those young Java programmers will kick my moldy butt .

Like everyone else , I devolve with age . That's just life .

How old are you ?

44 years last June.
-Mark Martin
.



User: "AaronB"

Title: Re: . Science and Religion . 11 Dec 2003 02:15:36 PM
Jeff Relf <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message news:<1578wqckdhair.dlg@__.Jeff.Relf>...

I argue that our general sense of free will
is due to our ignorance .

So what about creationism and the judgment day ? !

You haven't argued a single thing in this entire "essay." You just
present a series of quotes from people whose opinions, while
interesting and on occasion eloquent, are nothing more than that:
opinions. The fact that some of these people are respected authorities
on other matters is completely irrelevant. Why should Einstein and
Hawking know more about free will than a psychologist? A basketball
player? A child?

In _ Science , Philosophy , and Religion , A Symposium _ ,
New York , 1941 , Einstein said ,
" If [ God ] is omnipotent , then every occurrence ,
Including every human action , every human thought ,
and Every human feeling and aspiration is also His work ;
How is it possible to think of holding men responsible for
their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being ?
In giving out punishment and rewards he would ,
to a certain extent , be passing judgment on Himself .
How can this be combined with
the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him ?
...
The more a man is imbued with
the ordered regularity of all events
the firmer becomes his conviction that
there is no room left by the side of
this ordered regularity for causes of a different
[ ? Supernatural ] nature . "

Stephen Hawking says , " one has to find
a consistent solution of the equations of physics
...
It would imply that we were completely determined :
we couldn't change our minds . So much for free will . "

In _ Black Holes and Baby Universes _ , 1990 ,
Hawking said , " In summary , the title of this essay
was a question : ' Is everything determined ? '
The answer is yes , it is .
But it might as well not be ,
because we can never know what is determined . "

In Carl Sagan's introduction to Hawking's book
_ A Brief History of Time _ , he said ,
http://bex.nsstc.uah.edu/P494/ss09.html
" This is also a book about God ...
or perhaps about the absence of God .
The word God fills these pages .
Hawking embarks on a quest to answer
Einstein's famous question about
whether God had any choice in creating the universe .
Hawking is attempting , as he explicitly states ,
to understand the mind of God .
And this makes all the more unexpected
the conclusion of the effort , at least so far :
a universe with no edge in space ,
no beginning or end in time ,
and nothing for a Creator to do . "

In three sperate quotes , Hawking said , " One could say :
' The boundary condition of the universe
is that it has no boundary '
The universe would be completely self-contained
and not affected by anything outside itself .
It would neither be created nor destroyed .
It would just Be .
What place , then , for a creator ?
...
In relativity , there is no real distinction between
the space and time coordinates , just as there is
no difference between two space coordinates .
...
Imaginary time is
indistinguishable from directions in space . "

Many physicists and philosophers assume that
that material determinism is absolute .
( Any assumption is a " Faith " , a trust )

Commenting on how natural time is spatial and static ,
Einstein said ,
" The past , present , and future ,
are only illusions , however persistent . "

Hermann Weyl , Einstein's colleague said ,
" The world doesn't happen , it simply is . "

In 1929 , Einstein said , " Everything is determined ,
The beginning as well as the end ,
by forces over which we have no control .
It is determined for the insects as well as the star .
Human beings , vegetables , or cosmic dust ,
We all dance to a mysterious tune
Intoned in the distance by an invisible piper . "

From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02053a.htm
" The theory of Democritus [ Athens , 460 - 370 BC ]
may be summed up in the following propositions :
_ All bodies are composed of atoms
and spaces between the atoms . ...
_ There is no purpose or design in nature ,
and in this sense all is ruled by chance .
( i.e. A mysterious , yet still absolute ,
material determinism )
_ All activity is reduced to local motion . "

.
User: "Mark Martin"

Title: Re: . Science and Religion . 11 Dec 2003 08:45:44 PM
(AaronB) wrote in message news:<9f8a9f42.0312111215.569bc533@posting.google.com>...

You haven't argued a single thing in this entire "essay." You just
present a series of quotes from people whose opinions, while
interesting and on occasion eloquent, are nothing more than that:
opinions. The fact that some of these people are respected authorities
on other matters is completely irrelevant. Why should Einstein and
Hawking know more about free will than a psychologist? A basketball
player? A child?

This is Relf's modus operandi. Certain selected famous people
provisionally agree with him, therefore his position is well
supported. No need for refering to nature itself. You should've read
his personal webpage before he changed it a while back. To the best of
my recollection, he related how he "became a hard determinist summer
2002". In context, it read practically as if he'd been born again.
Halleluja!! ;)
-Mark Martin
.
User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: Re: . Science and Religion . 12 Dec 2003 08:15:40 AM
Hello Mark Martin , Referring to an old comment of mine ,
You wrote ,
" it read practically as if he'd been born again .
Halleluja !! ;) "
My trust in certain assertions ,
is nothing compared your trust in this assertion :
" Relf is a religious nut " .
But while my trust is well founded , Yours is not .
To be kind ,
I'd just say that you don't know enough about me ...
But I think the truth is different ,
I think you're just getting some tiny buzz by kicking me .
.


User: "Jeff Relf"

Title: Re: . Science and Religion . 12 Dec 2003 07:30:55 AM
Hello AaronB , You wrote ,
" Why should Einstein and Hawking
know more about free will than a psychologist ?
A basketball player ? A child ? "
Einstein and Hawking are cosmologists ,
they know the boundary between physics and metaphysics .
This does apply to real life ,
just take a look at Karl Marx's " Dialectical Materialism "
which spread to the governments of Russia and China .
Just look at evolution and psychoanalysis ,
both influenced by material fatalism .

No matter the discipline , it's important to remember this :
Because nothing is intrinsically random ,
a scientist should look for the missing information ,
or , failing that , the probabilities .
.



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