| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"stork" |
| Date: |
25 Jan 2007 11:54:36 PM |
| Object: |
A basic question. |
Do atoms and even subatomic particles get larger when they get hotter?
I'm trying to form a mental model of what an atom is, as, its not
particles, and its not waves, and try not to define it as such in my
head. So, the only thing that I can come up with is to apply knowledge
from writing monte carlo simulations for power, and so, I have it that
each is a sort of a probability field that has a shape described by a
funky set of equations. For example, an electron shell might be
described by a sort of a cloud that describes where the effect of an
electron might be felt.
Now, with that concept in mind, I ask myself, what happens when you add
heat to the system? At varying levels of heat, we know that molecular
bonds can break - if you heat water to a certain point, the H and O2
will disasociate. If you heat even further the electrons leave the
shells and start floating around and you get a plasma. And, I imagine,
you could theoretically apply so much energy that the Oxygen atom will
completely break apart into its a collection of protons and neutrons,
and from there, into whatever quarks that compose the thing.
So, my question is, does temperature change the shape of the
probability field the governs a "particle" in an atom? Do electron
shells distort as they are subjected to ever increasing amounts of
energy? Does a neutron get "bigger"? Or does everything stay the same
size, as if, these probability fields were like so many balloons that
just reach a certain size and burst, disgorging their contents?
.
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| User: "WillE1" |
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| Title: Re: A basic question. |
26 Jan 2007 11:20:27 AM |
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"stork" <tbandrow@storkyak.com> wrote in message
news:1169790876.264402.21970@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Do atoms and even subatomic particles get larger when they get hotter?
I'm trying to form a mental model of what an atom is, as, its not
particles, and its not waves, and try not to define it as such in my
head. So, the only thing that I can come up with is to apply knowledge
from writing monte carlo simulations for power, and so, I have it that
each is a sort of a probability field that has a shape described by a
funky set of equations. For example, an electron shell might be
described by a sort of a cloud that describes where the effect of an
electron might be felt.
Now, with that concept in mind, I ask myself, what happens when you add
heat to the system? At varying levels of heat, we know that molecular
bonds can break - if you heat water to a certain point, the H and O2
will disasociate. If you heat even further the electrons leave the
shells and start floating around and you get a plasma. And, I imagine,
you could theoretically apply so much energy that the Oxygen atom will
completely break apart into its a collection of protons and neutrons,
and from there, into whatever quarks that compose the thing.
So, my question is, does temperature change the shape of the
probability field the governs a "particle" in an atom? Do electron
shells distort as they are subjected to ever increasing amounts of
energy? Does a neutron get "bigger"? Or does everything stay the same
size, as if, these probability fields were like so many balloons that
just reach a certain size and burst, disgorging their contents?
I think you need to rephrase your question. Replace "heat" with "energy".
When you bombard atoms and molecules with various forms of energy, all sorts
of interesting changes take place. Look up fluorescence for just one
example. Will E.
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| User: "Dumbledore_" |
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| Title: Re: A basic question. |
26 Jan 2007 12:27:06 AM |
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"stork" <tbandrow@storkyak.com> wrote in message =
news:1169790876.264402.21970@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Do atoms and even subatomic particles get larger when they get hotter?
=20
I'm trying to form a mental model of what an atom is, as, its not
particles, and its not waves, and try not to define it as such in my
head. So, the only thing that I can come up with is to apply =
knowledge
from writing monte carlo simulations for power, and so, I have it that
each is a sort of a probability field that has a shape described by a
funky set of equations. For example, an electron shell might be
described by a sort of a cloud that describes where the effect of an
electron might be felt.
=20
Now, with that concept in mind, I ask myself, what happens when you =
add
heat to the system? At varying levels of heat, we know that molecular
bonds can break - if you heat water to a certain point, the H and O2
will disasociate. If you heat even further the electrons leave the
shells and start floating around and you get a plasma. And, I =
imagine,
you could theoretically apply so much energy that the Oxygen atom will
completely break apart into its a collection of protons and neutrons,
and from there, into whatever quarks that compose the thing.
=20
So, my question is, does temperature change the shape of the
probability field the governs a "particle" in an atom? Do electron
shells distort as they are subjected to ever increasing amounts of
energy? Does a neutron get "bigger"? Or does everything stay the =
same
size, as if, these probability fields were like so many balloons that
just reach a certain size and burst, disgorging their contents?
To most physicists heat is the average kinetic energy of a=20
collection of molecules, make them go faster and the object
takes up more room, we call that expansion. It doesn't mean
the molecules get bigger, it means they vibrate faster.=20
*I* do NOT know that if you heat water to a certain point the=20
H and O2 will "disassociate", even superheated steam is still
H2O, even if "we" know it.=20
One can separate the elements by electrolysis, but that is not "heat";
although in a sense it is, the 2H2 and O2 have more kinetic energy
and become gas. Nevertheless the temperature of the two gases
is no higher than the temperature of the original water.
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| User: "John Bailey" |
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| Title: Re: A basic question. |
27 Jan 2007 08:06:59 AM |
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On 25 Jan 2007 21:54:36 -0800, "stork" <tbandrow@storkyak.com> wrote:
Do atoms and even subatomic particles get larger when they get hotter?
So, my question is, does temperature change the shape of the
probability field the governs a "particle" in an atom? Do electron
shells distort as they are subjected to ever increasing amounts of
energy?
Like you, I am currently trying to gain intuitional insight into the
fundamental structure of matter. Only yesterday, I visited this
website which discusses precisely the question you appear to be
specifically asking:
http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/astr_250/Lectures/Lec17_sml.htm
"Evolution of a Low Mass Star from the Main Sequence
1) Core H is exhausted so energy generation stops. The gas pressure
cannot resist the force of gravity so the core begins to contract. As
it contracts, it heats up.
2) Gas layer immediately above the core is heated by the core
contraction. H begins to burn to He in a shell surrounding the core.
The energy released in this shell causes the overlying layers to
expand.
3)The core continues to contract, aided by He "ash" falling on it from
the H burning shell above.
and (suprisingly):
Look at this pressure carefully! It does not depend on temperature!
(this followed an equation for pressure and density which this news
writer cannot support)"
By the way,
http://www.chemistry.mcmaster.ca/esam/Chapter_4/section_3.html
provides the most comprehensive source for trying to understand the
structure of matter:
"This web page begins with a discussion of the need for a new
mechanics to describe the events at the atomic level. This is
illustrated through a discussion of experiments with electrons and
light, which are found to be inexplicable in terms of the mechanics of
Newton. The basic concepts of the quantum description of a bound
electron, such as quantization, degeneracy and its probabilistic
aspect, are introduced by contrasting the quantum and classical
results for similar one-dimensional systems. The atomic orbital
description of the many-electron atom and the Pauli exclusion
principle are considered in some detail, and the experimental
consequences of their predictions regarding the energy, angular
momentum and magnetic properties of atoms are illustrated."
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: A basic question. |
29 Jan 2007 09:59:05 AM |
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On Jan 25, 11:54 pm, "stork" <tband...@storkyak.com> wrote:
Do atoms and even subatomic particles get larger when they get hotter?
I'm trying to form a mental model of what an atom is, as, its not
particles, and its not waves, and try not to define it as such in my
head. So, the only thing that I can come up with is to apply knowledge
from writing monte carlo simulations for power, and so, I have it that
each is a sort of a probability field that has a shape described by a
funky set of equations. For example, an electron shell might be
described by a sort of a cloud that describes where the effect of an
electron might be felt.
Now, with that concept in mind, I ask myself, what happens when you add
heat to the system? At varying levels of heat, we know that molecular
bonds can break - if you heat water to a certain point, the H and O2
will disasociate. If you heat even further the electrons leave the
shells and start floating around and you get a plasma. And, I imagine,
you could theoretically apply so much energy that the Oxygen atom will
completely break apart into its a collection of protons and neutrons,
and from there, into whatever quarks that compose the thing.
So, my question is, does temperature change the shape of the
probability field the governs a "particle" in an atom? Do electron
shells distort as they are subjected to ever increasing amounts of
energy? Does a neutron get "bigger"? Or does everything stay the same
size, as if, these probability fields were like so many balloons that
just reach a certain size and burst, disgorging their contents?
To first order, the answer to your question is "no". Atomic-level
constituents do not get bigger when they get hotter. A good example is
an ideal gas. The fundamental assumptions of the kinetic model of an
ideal gas are that:
- the size of the objects is much, much smaller than the distance
between interactions between the objects. That is, they do not sit
shoulder-to-shoulder.
- the fraction of the time spent in "collision" between two objects is
very small, and the remainder of the time the objects can be
considered free.
When a gas expands under heating, all that really happens is that
distance between interactions becomes larger because the particles are
moving faster and they collide with more violence. Another way of
saying this is that, because of more vigorous movement, the particles
spend more of their time with more space between them.
With molecular dissociation, the thing you have to remember is that
bonds are mobile. They rotate, they vibrate, they swing back and forth
-- and energy is contained in those motions. Most of the time, this is
represented by an oscillation around the ground-state configuration,
so the average does not change much. However, if the oscillation
reaches the "elastic limit", then the bond can dissociate.
PD
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: A basic question. |
26 Jan 2007 12:19:23 AM |
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stork wrote:
Do atoms and even subatomic particles get larger when they get hotter?
No... Please look at these three concepts.
Kinetic Energy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_Energy
Temperature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature
Gas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas
.
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