Science > Physics > A CONVERSTAION WITH PENROSE ET. AL-- MOVING DIMENSIONS THEORY EXPLAINS AWAY THE "BLOCK UNIVERSE"
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
07 Feb 2006 07:06:07 AM |
| Object: |
A CONVERSTAION WITH PENROSE ET. AL-- MOVING DIMENSIONS THEORY EXPLAINS AWAY THE "BLOCK UNIVERSE" |
http://physicsmathforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3D57
http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=3D13&threadID=3D1304533&message=
ID=3D4108067
THE QM, GR & MDT: A DIALOGUE WITH PENROSE ET. AL
Roger Penrose longs for Moving Dimensions Theory. Where he falls short
in the following discussion is where he states, "the future is out
there." The future is not out there. But where Penrose steers close
is in acknowledging, "I think we need a new way to look at time, not
either Quantum Mechanics or Relativity." MD Theory offers this new
way.
Time is an emergent phenomena. Time happens because a fourth dimension
is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
Moving Dimensions Theory offers a new way of looking at time underlying
both QM and SR a phenoma that emerges from the MD Theory: THE FOURTH
DIMENSION IS EXPANDING AT A RATE OF C RELATIVE TO THE THREE SPATIAL
DIMENSIONS IN QUANTIZED UNITS OF THE PLANCK LENGTH, GIVING RISE TO TIME
AND ALL QUANTUM MECHANICAL AND RELATIVISTIC PHENOMENA.
http://physicsmathforums.com
Penrose's mistaken view of "the future being out there" arises
because of physicists misleadingly labeling "time" the fourth
dimension, thus implying that just as we can move anywhere in the three
spatial dimensions, such as up and down and back again, so too can we
move anywhere in the time dimension, to the past, the future, and back
again, implying that both the past and future must exist, as sure as
New York and Los Angeles.
But time is not so much the fourth dimension as it is an emergent
phenomena that arises because a fourth dimension is expanding at the
rate of c relative to the three spatial dimensions in a spherically
symmetric manner in units of the Planck length.
Dr. E has added to the following dialogue with Roger Penrose, showing
how Moving Dimensions Theory can unify the concept of time in SR and
QM-in fact all phenomena in SR and QM might be accounted for by
Moving Dimensions Theory. The original dialogue may be found here:
http://members.fortunecity.com/templarser/flowtime.html
Roger Penrose : "I think there's always something paradoxical about
the way we seem to perceive time to pass and the way physics describes
time."
Dr. E: Moving Dimensions Theory alleviates this paradox by viewing time
as an emergent phenomena-something that arises because the fourth
dimension is expanding relative to the three stationary spatial
dimensions.
Roger Penrose : Space-time is certainly different stuff from space
because its 4 dimensional instead of 3-D (RP larfs!) which is a big
diff. Time really has to be brought into the picture; this one thing
which is space/time.
Physicist : Just imagine what this might be like: 3-D space implies a
volume, and you can move any where in that volume. Once you add time as
a 4th dimension, another axis, then this block of space/time would
contain within it past, present and future, all at once. Time is
frozen, all times exist together; so just as you can say "over here,
over there" in 3-D space, you can talk about "over then", in 4-D
space/time.
Roger Penrose : It's a way of looking at things if you like which
physically we seem to be forced into. I say physically from the point
of view of what the theory of rel. tells us. And Relativity is
remarkably well tested, I mean, 14 places of decimal, it's just
incredible. So we know that this theory does describe the universe to
an extraordinarily precise degree, so we have to take it seriously. And
that theory tells us that we have to regard space and time as one
thing, it's all out there, it's one thing. In the same sense that
space is out there, time is out there.
Dr. E: No-the past and future are not out there. There is indeed a
fourth dimension, and that dimension is expanding relative to the three
spatial dimensions at the rate of c in units of the Planck length. We
perceive time-the past and the future-as events and dreams in our
memories and minds, based on the interaction of the fourth expanding
dimension with the three stationary dimensions.
Narrator : Like the Medieval God's-view of time, Einstein's physics
says that the future is already out there. The moments of our lives are
just waiting for us to step into them.
Roger Penrose : But there's no more problem about the future being out
there than saying that space is out there. You say, "Mars is out
there", but why is that more comprehensible than saying "next week is
out there"? It's just as far away in a certain sense.
Physicist : If you take this block of 4-D space/time literally, it
means you have to abandon free will. It means not only is the future
pre-ordained, but its already there, its already happened. There's no
point in making any decisions, whatever you do has already happened. If
I choose to drop this stone into a pond, I think of it being my own
free choice, but of course in 4-D space/time I had no choice in
dropping the stone ; the splash is already there in the future and so
we lose all free will. If time travel was possible, you can imagine
people coming back from the future to visit us; its no good us saying,
"you cant exist - you haven't happened yet".They've come from a time
which they consider to be their 'now' and for them we're in their path.
Roger Penrose : So this means that in a sense, the present past and
future are out there, and that also gives us a very deterministic view
of the world. We have no control of what happens in the future because
its all laid out. I think the trouble that people have with this idea
is that you think the future is under your control, to some degree, and
so this means that if the future's laid out then in a sense its not
under your control.
Physicist : Personally I'm very uncomfortable about the block universe
idea. Now this may be just a gut feeling or just irrational, but can't
accept the future's already 'out there'. I don't accept that I don't
have any free will.
Roger Penrose : I think there is a positive side to this picture of
space and time being laid out there as 4 dimensions, because it tells
you that all times are there once and it can affect the way one thinks
about people who have died. I mean, I remember thinking in this kind of
way when my mother died. In some sense she was still there because her
existence is still out there in space/time although in our time she is
not alive. A colleague of mine had a son who died in tragic
circumstances and I presented this idea to him and it helped his
understanding also. This was before I heard that Einstein had a
colleague died and he wrote to the man's wife that Bessa was still out
there, and that somehow this was reassuring. I certainly think this way
often, that space/time is laid out and that things in the past and
things in the future are out there still.
Narrator : But almost at the same time that Relativity was gaining
universal acceptance a radically different picture of the universe was
emerging.
Physicist : The way out if you don't want to accept the block universe
idea is quantum mechanics. Now, Quantum Mechanics is the second great
discovery of the 20th century physics and that states that the future
isn't predetermined and preordained.
Narrator : Quantum Mechanics was born out of a series of experiments
whose results even today have no satisfactory explanation. Relativity
works at the large scale where it provides exact predictions as to what
will happen next. But when physicists started looking down at the
atomic and sub-atomic level, the familiar laws failed. At this level,
there were no certainties, only probabilities. How can the future of
the universe be already out there if the future of a single molecule is
so utterly unpredictable?
Dr. E: The future of the universe is not already out there. Both
quantum mechanics and relativity derive from the same underlying
physical reality of a fourth dimension expanding relative to three
spatial dimensions at the rate of c in units of the Planck length. The
wave-particle duality of matter comes from the inherent non-locality of
any matter at a point in the expanding dimension, which would appear as
photons expanding in a spherically symmetric manner at the rate of c.
The constant speed of light also comes from the physical reality of the
fourth dimension expanding relative to the three stationary spatial
dimensions. No matter how fast the emitter is traveling, the expanding
dimension yet carries the photon at the rate of c.
Physicist : Before we look to see what the atom is doing, not only is
there a gap in our knowledge, the atom itself has not decided what to
do. It had an infinite number of choices to make, it will be doing all
those choices all at once, and its only when we look to see what is
happening do we force it to make a choice. In Quantum Mechanics the
future is not determined, and so Quantum Mechanics in a sense rescues
us and rescues free will.
Roger Penrose : In a sense you don't have the future laid out in
Quantum Mechanics So Quantum Mechanics. is basically different in the
way we look at it. You do have this indeterminacy about the future and
a necessary feature of this is its incompatibility with Special
Relativity. So we have these 2 great theories, both of which are
extremely accurate, tell us something about how the world operates,
something very insightful and profound and accurate, but they're
incompatible with each other. So there's no doubt there's something
missing here. How important it is to how we 'feel' the passage of time
is I think very important.
Dr. E: But QM and SR perfectly compatible theories. In SR there is no
certain future-that is a byproduct of mistakenly looking at time as a
fourth dimension on equal footing with the three spatial dimensions.
The passage of time happens because of matter interacting with a
dimension that is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
And all quantum mechanical and relativistic effects may be traced back
to Moving Dimensions Theory.
Narrator: The tragedy of modern physics is that it explains so much of
the objective universe but at the cost of what we subjectively feel;
about our conscious free will and our feeling that time does flow.
Faun Flynn: I very much think there's a flow to time. If you consider
what music would be like if there was no flow to time. You couldn't
have music if you didn't have memory, or if you didn't have an
expectation generated by that memory. You'd have an isolated note in
the 'now'. Music unfolds in time in such a way that we have a memory of
what we've heard, and this memory conditions to what we expect. This of
course is something that everybody is familiar with, because if you
hear ( 7 note scale played on piano) you have a very strong expectation
that the next note will be (plays final octave note of scale) . Music
is a distillation or a side-effect of that mental faculty we employ to
perceive time, and things changing in time.
Roger Penrose : The question of the passage of time is something the
scientists have rather set aside, and taking the view that its not
really physics, it's a subjective issue; and subjective questions are
not part of science. Now when you start talking about phenomena like
one's own perception of the passage of time, then that is a subjective
thing. And that's almost a taboo subject for science because it's
subjective. The physical world at least according to Relativity, is out
there, and there is no flow of time, it's just there; whereas our
feeling (we have this feeling of the passage of time) are intimately
connected to our perceptions.
Dr. E: Indeed scientists too often choose their battles selfishly,
thereby solving problems by saying that they do not need to be solved,
while simultaneously concentrating on obscure theories, spending
millions on building empty temples for the herd. The physical future is
not out there according to relativity. The passage of time is the
result of the propagation of energy. The aging of cells, the
oscillations of a quartz crystal, the unwinding of a clock spring, the
swing of a pendulum-all of these have to do with the exchange of
photons and thus the propagation of energy. And energy propagates at
the constant rate of c throughout the universe because the fourth
dimension, which carries matter that we perceive as photons, is
expanding at the rate of c relative to the three spatial dimensions, in
units of the Planck length.
Physicist : We have this subjective feeling, that time goes by, but
physicists would argue this is just an illusion.
Roger Penrose : Yes I think physicists would agree that the feeling of
time passing is simply an illusion, something that is not real. It has
something to do with our perceptions.
Dr. E: The passage of time is real. Time's arrow, or entropy, or the
second law of thermodynamics are all explained by Moving Dimensions
Theory. Because a fourth dimension is expanding at the rate of c in a
spherically symmetric manner, all particles have a probability of being
displaced in a spherically symmetric manner. Thus any two particles
close to each other will wander apart.
Narrator : Illusion or not, our perceptions emerge somewhere between
the cosmic scale of Relativity where the flow of time is frozen and the
quantum scale, where flow descends to uncertainty. Our world is on a
scale governed by a mixture of chance and necessity.
Roger Penrose : My view is that there is some large scale quantum
activity going on in the brain. Physics does not say that Quantum
Mechanics takes place in small areas, but also take place over larger
areas. I think this has to do with the consciousness. I think we need a
new way to look at time, not either Quantum Mechanics or Relativity.
Dr. E: Moving Dimensions offers this new way of looking at time. Time
is not the fourth dimension, but it is a phenomena that arises because
a fourth spatial dimension is expanding relative to the three
stationary spatial dimensions.
Narrator : If Quantum Mechanics is taking place in the brain then the
same randomness of outcome and unpredictability might explain our
ability to make sometime random choices. Opening up the future to the
possibility of change would provide the first step of restoring to
physics the flow of time it currently denies.
Physicist : I don't think time flows, I feel that time flows, but I
feel we can only understand this if we have a better understanding of
how consciousness works. I think human consciousness probably has the
secrets as to how and why we think of time as going by.
Roger Penrose : I don't think we have the tools, I don't think we have
the physical picture to accommodate these things yet. We're not very
close to it.
Dr. E: Moving Dimensions Theory has just brought us closer.
The original dialogue may be found here:
http://members.fortunecity.com/templarser/flowtime.html
Wheeler's Quantum Foam:
Brian Greene writes, "The notion of a smooth spatial geometry, the
central principle of general relativity, is destroyed by the violent
fluctuations of the quantum world on short distance scales. On
ultramicroscopic scales, the central feature of quantum mechanics-the
uncertainty principle-is in direct conflict with the central feature
of general relativity-the smooth geometrical model of space (and of
spacetime)... The equations of general relativity cannot handle the
roiling frenzy of quantum foam." Nor do they have to.
MDT happily unifies relativity and quantum mechanics with a simple
postulate. The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three
spatial dimensions.
And because the fourth dimension is expanding in units of the Planck
length, quantum mechanical behavior manifests itself in all phenomena
that touch upon the notion of tiny distances. However, over large
distances, the expansion of the fourth dimension seems smooth and
continuous. Thus space and time appear smooth and continuous over large
distances.
Likewise, although light has a probability of traveling slower or
faster than c, due to the quantum mechanical nature of the expansion of
the dimension that carries it through space, over large distances time
is observed to travel at a the constant rate of c.
Relativity and quantum mechanics have always existed peaceably in
nature, and now, via Moving Dimensions Theory, relativity and quantum
mechanics exist peaceably in theory too.
String Theory's Admitted Shortcomings FROM ITS TEXTBOOKS!!!:
The great irony of string theory, however, is that the theory itself is
not unified. To someone learning the theory for the first time, it is
often a frustrating collection of folklore, rules of thumb, and
intuition. (IN OTHER WORDS IT IS NOT PHYSICS!!!) At times, there seems
to be no rhyme or reason for many of the conventions of the model. For
a theory that makes the claim of providing a unifying framework for all
physical laws, it is the supreme irony that the theory itself appears
so disunited!!
Chapter 1. Path Integrals and Point Particles: Why Strings?
"Introduction to Superstrings and M-Theory," page 5. -Michio Kaku
Supersymmetry is one of the most elegant of all symmetries, uniting
bosons and fermions into a single multiplet:
Fermions =DF=E0 Bosons
By uniting fields of differing statistics, supersymmetry and
supergroups have also opened up an entirely new area of mathematics...
However, the irony is that there is not a single shred of experimental
evidence in its favor. For example, physicists have tried to fit the
electron or neutrino into supersymmetric multiplets, but the scalar
partners of these leptons have never been seen. In fact, none of the
presently known particles has a supersymmetric partner.
Chapter 3, Superstrings, Supersymmetric Point Particles - Michio Kaku
Should New Ideas be Allowed in Contemporary Physics?
All of physic's greatest hits are contained in simple postulates,
laws, and equations that have stood the test of time and provided a
lever by which we could disturb the universe. For this reason, I am
advocating a return to physics that is expressed in simple postulates,
laws, and equations that can be discussed and tested by experiment.
Postmodern theories such as string theory are dangerous to physics and
physicists alike. Like Narcissus, who fell in the water while staring
at his own reflection, it seems many String Theorists have fallen into
a world of reflection, where they're not looking at physical reality,
but only themselves. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been poured
into String Theory, and yet not one postulate, nor law, nor proof, nor
success.
But the purpose of this paper is not to criticize string theory, but to
light the way to a new day with a simple postulate: the fourth
dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
After Einstein published his two postulates of special relativity and
his foundational paper on quantum mechanics, it was yet many years, and
tens of thousands of man hours, before a nobler physics bore itself
out-the realm of physics that is now known as relativity, that has
stood the tests of time and continues to inspire young physicists. And
so it is that today, Quantum Mechanics and Relativity, which came out
of either side of Einstein's mind, are yet the towering beacons that
inspire young physicists. When one wants to see further, one climbs on
top of the shoulders of giants-Newton, Bohr, Einstein, Dirac,
Shrodinger, and Wheeler. And it was from such a vantage point that I
saw Moving Dimensions Theory.
Contemporary physics, like much of academia, is cluttered with
political factions, charlatans, hypesters, and fund-raisers. Such a
system is self-reinforcing, and as time goes on, truth means less and
less, as politics, hype, and blind-faith land the postdocs, government
grants, and tenure.
Young physicists are bullied by pomo-hipster "the truth does not
exist" String Theorists who tell questioning young physicists that
they cannot question. When the young physicists continue to question
undeterred, the tenured string theorist waves her hands and makes it
personal, projecting their infinite shortcomings, telling the young
physicists that simply cannot comprehend the beauty of the ten, eleven,
twenty-two, or thirty dimensions.
But there are changes afoot, and prominent physicists-Nobel Prize
winners and true leaders-are stepping forth to criticize string
theory:
"If Einstein were alive today, he would be horrified at this state of
affairs. He would upbraid the profession for allowing this mess to
develop and fly into a blind rage over the transformation of his
beautiful creations into ideologies and the resulting proliferation of
logical inconsistencies. Einstein was an artist and a scholar but above
all he was a revolutionary. His approach to physics might be summarized
as hypothesizing minimally. Never arguing with experiment, demanding
total logical consistency, and mistrusting unsubstantiated beliefs. The
unsubstantial belief of his day was ether, or more precisely the na=EFve
version of ether that preceded relativity. The unsubstantiated belief
of our day is relativity itself. It would be perfectly in character for
him to reexamine the facts, toss them over in his mind, and conclude
that his beloved principle of relativity was not fundamental at all but
emergent-a collective property of the matter constituting space-time
that becomes increasingly exact at long length scales but fails at
short ones. This is a different idea from his original one but
something fully compatible with it logically, and even more exciting
and potentially important. It would mean that the fabric of space-time
was not simply the stage on which life played out but an organizational
phenomenon, and that there might be something beyond." -A Different
Universe, Reinventing Physics From The Bottom Down, Robert B. Laughlin,
Winner of the Nobel Prize in physics for his work on the fractional
quantum Hall effect.
"Despite its having become embedded in the discipline, the idea of
absolute symmetry makes no sense. Symmetries are cause by things, not
he cause of things. If relativity is always true, then there has to be
an underlying reason. Attempts to evade this problem inevitably result
in contradictions. Thus if we try to write down relativistic equations
describing the spectroscopy of a vacuum, we discover that the equations
are mathematical nonsense unless either relativity or guage invariance,
an equally important symmetry, is postulated to fail at extremely short
distances. No workable fix to this problem has ever been discovered.
String theory, originally invented for this purpose, has not succeeded.
In addition to its legendary appetite for higher dimensions, it also
has problems at short length scales, albeit more subtle ones, and has
never been shown to evolve into the standard model at long length
scales, as required for compatibility with experiment." -A
Different Universe, Reinventing Physics From The Bottom Down, Robert B.
Laughlin, Winner of the Nobel Prize in physics for his work on the
fractional quantum Hall effect
"Thus the innocent observation that the vacuum of space is empty is
not innocent at all, but is instead compelling evidence that light and
gravity are linked and probably both collective in nature. Real light,
like real quantum-mechanical sound, differs from its idealized
Newtonian counterpart in containing energy even when it is stone cold.
According to the principle of relativity, this energy should have
generated mass, and this, in turn, should have generated gravity. We
have no idea why it does not, so we deal with the problem the way the
government might, namely by simply declaring empty space not to
gravitate. In chutzpah, this ranks with the famous case of the Indiana
state legislature passing a law declaring Pi to have the value three.
It also demonstrates the severity of the problem, for one does not
resort to such desperate measures when there are reasonable
alternatives. The desire to explain away the gravity paradox
microscopically is also the motivation for the invention of
supersymmetry, a mathematical construction that assigns a special
complementary partner to every known elementary particle. Were a
superpartner ever discovered in nature, the hope for a reductionist
explanation for the emptiness of space might be rekindled, but this has
not happened, at least not yet."
"[String Theory] has no practical utility, however, other than to
sustain the myth of the ultimate theory. There is no experimental
evidence for the existence of strings in nature, nor does the special
mathematics of string theory enable known experimental behavior to be
calculated or predicted more easily. Moreover, the complex
spectroscopic properties of space accessible with today's mighty
accelerators are accountable in only as "low-energy
phenomenology"-a pejorative term for transcendent emergent
properties of matter impossible to calculate from first principles.
String theory is, in fact, a textbook case of Deceitful Turkey, a
beautiful set of ideas that will always remain just barely out of
reach. Far from a wonderful technological hope for a greater tomorrow,
it is instead the tragic consequence of an obsolete belief system-in
which emergence plays no role and dark law does not exist."
-A Different Universe, Reinventing Physics From The Bottom Down,
Robert B. Laughlin, Winner of the Nobel Prize in physics for his work
on the fractional quantum Hall effect.
"The master antitheory of the age is the idea that there is no
fundamental thing left to discover, so that the world we inhabit is
simply a swarm of detail that belongs to no one and thus can be
legitimately handled by business tactics-resource management,
competitive advertising, survival of the fittest, and so forth. A
corollary is that there is no absolute truth, but only products, like
shirts or hamburgers, that one throws away when their usefulness is
exhausted. Antitheories are dangerous ideologies not only because they
impede inquiry but because they lull one into ignoring threats that
one's opponents can exploit to their advantage."
-A Different Universe, Reinventing Physics From The Bottom Down,
Robert B. Laughlin, Winner of the Nobel Prize in physics for his work
on the fractional quantum Hall effect.
Acceleration occurs when an object is rotated in space-time, and the
conservation of momentum and energy were based on the conservation of
something more fundamental-the conservation of dimension.
Conservation Laws: Newton's Laws & The Law of Inertia
The conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum can be
expressed as the conservation of rotation in space-time. Every particle
has a probability of existing in ace or time. A photon has close to a
100% probability of existing in time and close to a 0% chance of
existing in space. Mass has close to a 100% chance of existing in
space, and close to 0% chance of existing in time. When one adds
photons to massive objects, one gives them energy, the net photon-mass
object has a greater chance of existing in time than did the massive
object on its own.
The Purpose of Physics
The purpose of physics has ever been to unify diverse physical
phenomena with simple postulates, laws, and formulas reflecting the
deeper physical reality. MDT unifies relativity and quantum mechanics
by positing that they are both emergent properties of moving
dimensions. MDT's simple postulate-the fourth dimension is
expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions-offers the first
satisfactory explanation of the Einstein Podolsky Rosen (EPR) effect
and the nonlocal behavior inherent to the math and physical reality of
quantum mechanics. Time itself is viewed not as the fourth dimension,
but as an emergent phenomena arising from the expansion of the fourth
dimension relative to the three spatial dimensions. This logic
alleviates a confusion of time with an actual fourth dimension where
one can travel back and forth at will, thus addressing Godel's,
Einstein's, Hawking's, Barbour's, and Penrose's concerns about
frozen time, and accounting for time's relentless arrow, the second
law of thermodynamics, and entropy.
This is but a brief treatment of a much larger project.
The General Postulate of Moving Dimensions Theory:
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial
dimensions.
The Specific Postulate of Moving Dimensions Theory:
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial
dimensions at the rate of c in quantized units of the Planck length.
http://physicsmathforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3D57
http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=3D13&threadID=3D1304533&message=
ID=3D4108067
http://physicsmathforums.com/
.
|
|
| User: "Bill Hobba" |
|
| Title: Re: A CONVERSTAION WITH PENROSE ET. AL-- MOVING DIMENSIONS THEORY EXPLAINS AWAY THE "BLOCK UNIVERSE" |
07 Feb 2006 05:34:36 PM |
|
|
<drelliot@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139317567.806138.111370@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://physicsmathforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=57
http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=13&threadID=1304533&messageID=4108067
THE QM, GR & MDT: A DIALOGUE WITH PENROSE ET. AL Roger Penrose longs for
Moving Dimensions Theory.
You long for psychiatric help - seek it soon.
Bill
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Immortalist" |
|
| Title: Re: A CONVERSTAION WITH PENROSE ET. AL-- MOVING DIMENSIONS THEORY EXPLAINS AWAY THE "BLOCK UNIVERSE" |
07 Feb 2006 12:00:42 PM |
|
|
Time is an emergent phenomena.
Time happens because a fourth dimension
is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
Sorry about the snip but since when I replied the ">" sign wouldn't appear I
had to cut out all the stuff except what I felt compfortable putting ">"
signs before. I am sure there are some good parts of your argument wasted
because of your lack of knowledge about how to post text but what can I say?
You say time is emergent but wouldn't something take time to emerge which
would make your claim be contradictory for its circularity in that your
saying time emerges and emergence takes time at the same time.
Then you say that length, height, and width are expanding and so must time
but you give us no reason to associate the dimensions this way. I can
imagine that if the big bang then there were times when things were closer
than they are now and that the time it takes for light to travel is greater
for further distances. If time expanded wouldn't it take the same time for
light to travel two different distances at different times?
You need a theory of time that can norrow your topic and hence increase the
conclusivenes of your probabilities.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Len Gaasenbeek" |
|
| Title: Re: A CONVERSTAION WITH PENROSE ET. AL-- MOVING DIMENSIONS THEORY EXPLAINS AWAY THE "BLOCK UNIVERSE" |
07 Feb 2006 07:41:31 AM |
|
|
Please!
One phenomenon,
Two phenomena.
Len.
.................................................
<drelliot@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139317567.806138.111370@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://physicsmathforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=57
http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=13&threadID=1304533&messageID=4108067
THE QM, GR & MDT: A DIALOGUE WITH PENROSE ET. AL
Roger Penrose longs for Moving Dimensions Theory. Where he falls short
in the following discussion is where he states, "the future is out
there." The future is not out there. But where Penrose steers close
is in acknowledging, "I think we need a new way to look at time, not
either Quantum Mechanics or Relativity." MD Theory offers this new
way.
Time is an emergent phenomena. Time happens because a fourth dimension
is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
Moving Dimensions Theory offers a new way of looking at time underlying
both QM and SR a phenoma that emerges from the MD Theory: THE FOURTH
DIMENSION IS EXPANDING AT A RATE OF C RELATIVE TO THE THREE SPATIAL
DIMENSIONS IN QUANTIZED UNITS OF THE PLANCK LENGTH, GIVING RISE TO TIME
AND ALL QUANTUM MECHANICAL AND RELATIVISTIC PHENOMENA.
http://physicsmathforums.com
Penrose's mistaken view of "the future being out there" arises
because of physicists misleadingly labeling "time" the fourth
dimension, thus implying that just as we can move anywhere in the three
spatial dimensions, such as up and down and back again, so too can we
move anywhere in the time dimension, to the past, the future, and back
again, implying that both the past and future must exist, as sure as
New York and Los Angeles.
But time is not so much the fourth dimension as it is an emergent
phenomena that arises because a fourth dimension is expanding at the
rate of c relative to the three spatial dimensions in a spherically
symmetric manner in units of the Planck length.
Dr. E has added to the following dialogue with Roger Penrose, showing
how Moving Dimensions Theory can unify the concept of time in SR and
QM-in fact all phenomena in SR and QM might be accounted for by
Moving Dimensions Theory. The original dialogue may be found here:
http://members.fortunecity.com/templarser/flowtime.html
Roger Penrose : "I think there's always something paradoxical about
the way we seem to perceive time to pass and the way physics describes
time."
Dr. E: Moving Dimensions Theory alleviates this paradox by viewing time
as an emergent phenomena-something that arises because the fourth
dimension is expanding relative to the three stationary spatial
dimensions.
Roger Penrose : Space-time is certainly different stuff from space
because its 4 dimensional instead of 3-D (RP larfs!) which is a big
diff. Time really has to be brought into the picture; this one thing
which is space/time.
Physicist : Just imagine what this might be like: 3-D space implies a
volume, and you can move any where in that volume. Once you add time as
a 4th dimension, another axis, then this block of space/time would
contain within it past, present and future, all at once. Time is
frozen, all times exist together; so just as you can say "over here,
over there" in 3-D space, you can talk about "over then", in 4-D
space/time.
Roger Penrose : It's a way of looking at things if you like which
physically we seem to be forced into. I say physically from the point
of view of what the theory of rel. tells us. And Relativity is
remarkably well tested, I mean, 14 places of decimal, it's just
incredible. So we know that this theory does describe the universe to
an extraordinarily precise degree, so we have to take it seriously. And
that theory tells us that we have to regard space and time as one
thing, it's all out there, it's one thing. In the same sense that
space is out there, time is out there.
Dr. E: No-the past and future are not out there. There is indeed a
fourth dimension, and that dimension is expanding relative to the three
spatial dimensions at the rate of c in units of the Planck length. We
perceive time-the past and the future-as events and dreams in our
memories and minds, based on the interaction of the fourth expanding
dimension with the three stationary dimensions.
Narrator : Like the Medieval God's-view of time, Einstein's physics
says that the future is already out there. The moments of our lives are
just waiting for us to step into them.
Roger Penrose : But there's no more problem about the future being out
there than saying that space is out there. You say, "Mars is out
there", but why is that more comprehensible than saying "next week is
out there"? It's just as far away in a certain sense.
Physicist : If you take this block of 4-D space/time literally, it
means you have to abandon free will. It means not only is the future
pre-ordained, but its already there, its already happened. There's no
point in making any decisions, whatever you do has already happened. If
I choose to drop this stone into a pond, I think of it being my own
free choice, but of course in 4-D space/time I had no choice in
dropping the stone ; the splash is already there in the future and so
we lose all free will. If time travel was possible, you can imagine
people coming back from the future to visit us; its no good us saying,
"you cant exist - you haven't happened yet".They've come from a time
which they consider to be their 'now' and for them we're in their path.
Roger Penrose : So this means that in a sense, the present past and
future are out there, and that also gives us a very deterministic view
of the world. We have no control of what happens in the future because
its all laid out. I think the trouble that people have with this idea
is that you think the future is under your control, to some degree, and
so this means that if the future's laid out then in a sense its not
under your control.
Physicist : Personally I'm very uncomfortable about the block universe
idea. Now this may be just a gut feeling or just irrational, but can't
accept the future's already 'out there'. I don't accept that I don't
have any free will.
Roger Penrose : I think there is a positive side to this picture of
space and time being laid out there as 4 dimensions, because it tells
you that all times are there once and it can affect the way one thinks
about people who have died. I mean, I remember thinking in this kind of
way when my mother died. In some sense she was still there because her
existence is still out there in space/time although in our time she is
not alive. A colleague of mine had a son who died in tragic
circumstances and I presented this idea to him and it helped his
understanding also. This was before I heard that Einstein had a
colleague died and he wrote to the man's wife that Bessa was still out
there, and that somehow this was reassuring. I certainly think this way
often, that space/time is laid out and that things in the past and
things in the future are out there still.
Narrator : But almost at the same time that Relativity was gaining
universal acceptance a radically different picture of the universe was
emerging.
Physicist : The way out if you don't want to accept the block universe
idea is quantum mechanics. Now, Quantum Mechanics is the second great
discovery of the 20th century physics and that states that the future
isn't predetermined and preordained.
Narrator : Quantum Mechanics was born out of a series of experiments
whose results even today have no satisfactory explanation. Relativity
works at the large scale where it provides exact predictions as to what
will happen next. But when physicists started looking down at the
atomic and sub-atomic level, the familiar laws failed. At this level,
there were no certainties, only probabilities. How can the future of
the universe be already out there if the future of a single molecule is
so utterly unpredictable?
Dr. E: The future of the universe is not already out there. Both
quantum mechanics and relativity derive from the same underlying
physical reality of a fourth dimension expanding relative to three
spatial dimensions at the rate of c in units of the Planck length. The
wave-particle duality of matter comes from the inherent non-locality of
any matter at a point in the expanding dimension, which would appear as
photons expanding in a spherically symmetric manner at the rate of c.
The constant speed of light also comes from the physical reality of the
fourth dimension expanding relative to the three stationary spatial
dimensions. No matter how fast the emitter is traveling, the expanding
dimension yet carries the photon at the rate of c.
Physicist : Before we look to see what the atom is doing, not only is
there a gap in our knowledge, the atom itself has not decided what to
do. It had an infinite number of choices to make, it will be doing all
those choices all at once, and its only when we look to see what is
happening do we force it to make a choice. In Quantum Mechanics the
future is not determined, and so Quantum Mechanics in a sense rescues
us and rescues free will.
Roger Penrose : In a sense you don't have the future laid out in
Quantum Mechanics So Quantum Mechanics. is basically different in the
way we look at it. You do have this indeterminacy about the future and
a necessary feature of this is its incompatibility with Special
Relativity. So we have these 2 great theories, both of which are
extremely accurate, tell us something about how the world operates,
something very insightful and profound and accurate, but they're
incompatible with each other. So there's no doubt there's something
missing here. How important it is to how we 'feel' the passage of time
is I think very important.
Dr. E: But QM and SR perfectly compatible theories. In SR there is no
certain future-that is a byproduct of mistakenly looking at time as a
fourth dimension on equal footing with the three spatial dimensions.
The passage of time happens because of matter interacting with a
dimension that is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
And all quantum mechanical and relativistic effects may be traced back
to Moving Dimensions Theory.
Narrator: The tragedy of modern physics is that it explains so much of
the objective universe but at the cost of what we subjectively feel;
about our conscious free will and our feeling that time does flow.
Faun Flynn: I very much think there's a flow to time. If you consider
what music would be like if there was no flow to time. You couldn't
have music if you didn't have memory, or if you didn't have an
expectation generated by that memory. You'd have an isolated note in
the 'now'. Music unfolds in time in such a way that we have a memory of
what we've heard, and this memory conditions to what we expect. This of
course is something that everybody is familiar with, because if you
hear ( 7 note scale played on piano) you have a very strong expectation
that the next note will be (plays final octave note of scale) . Music
is a distillation or a side-effect of that mental faculty we employ to
perceive time, and things changing in time.
Roger Penrose : The question of the passage of time is something the
scientists have rather set aside, and taking the view that its not
really physics, it's a subjective issue; and subjective questions are
not part of science. Now when you start talking about phenomena like
one's own perception of the passage of time, then that is a subjective
thing. And that's almost a taboo subject for science because it's
subjective. The physical world at least according to Relativity, is out
there, and there is no flow of time, it's just there; whereas our
feeling (we have this feeling of the passage of time) are intimately
connected to our perceptions.
Dr. E: Indeed scientists too often choose their battles selfishly,
thereby solving problems by saying that they do not need to be solved,
while simultaneously concentrating on obscure theories, spending
millions on building empty temples for the herd. The physical future is
not out there according to relativity. The passage of time is the
result of the propagation of energy. The aging of cells, the
oscillations of a quartz crystal, the unwinding of a clock spring, the
swing of a pendulum-all of these have to do with the exchange of
photons and thus the propagation of energy. And energy propagates at
the constant rate of c throughout the universe because the fourth
dimension, which carries matter that we perceive as photons, is
expanding at the rate of c relative to the three spatial dimensions, in
units of the Planck length.
Physicist : We have this subjective feeling, that time goes by, but
physicists would argue this is just an illusion.
Roger Penrose : Yes I think physicists would agree that the feeling of
time passing is simply an illusion, something that is not real. It has
something to do with our perceptions.
Dr. E: The passage of time is real. Time's arrow, or entropy, or the
second law of thermodynamics are all explained by Moving Dimensions
Theory. Because a fourth dimension is expanding at the rate of c in a
spherically symmetric manner, all particles have a probability of being
displaced in a spherically symmetric manner. Thus any two particles
close to each other will wander apart.
Narrator : Illusion or not, our perceptions emerge somewhere between
the cosmic scale of Relativity where the flow of time is frozen and the
quantum scale, where flow descends to uncertainty. Our world is on a
scale governed by a mixture of chance and necessity.
Roger Penrose : My view is that there is some large scale quantum
activity going on in the brain. Physics does not say that Quantum
Mechanics takes place in small areas, but also take place over larger
areas. I think this has to do with the consciousness. I think we need a
new way to look at time, not either Quantum Mechanics or Relativity.
Dr. E: Moving Dimensions offers this new way of looking at time. Time
is not the fourth dimension, but it is a phenomena that arises because
a fourth spatial dimension is expanding relative to the three
stationary spatial dimensions.
Narrator : If Quantum Mechanics is taking place in the brain then the
same randomness of outcome and unpredictability might explain our
ability to make sometime random choices. Opening up the future to the
possibility of change would provide the first step of restoring to
physics the flow of time it currently denies.
Physicist : I don't think time flows, I feel that time flows, but I
feel we can only understand this if we have a better understanding of
how consciousness works. I think human consciousness probably has the
secrets as to how and why we think of time as going by.
Roger Penrose : I don't think we have the tools, I don't think we have
the physical picture to accommodate these things yet. We're not very
close to it.
Dr. E: Moving Dimensions Theory has just brought us closer.
The original dialogue may be found here:
http://members.fortunecity.com/templarser/flowtime.html
Wheeler's Quantum Foam:
Brian Greene writes, "The notion of a smooth spatial geometry, the
central principle of general relativity, is destroyed by the violent
fluctuations of the quantum world on short distance scales. On
ultramicroscopic scales, the central feature of quantum mechanics-the
uncertainty principle-is in direct conflict with the central feature
of general relativity-the smooth geometrical model of space (and of
spacetime)... The equations of general relativity cannot handle the
roiling frenzy of quantum foam." Nor do they have to.
MDT happily unifies relativity and quantum mechanics with a simple
postulate. The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three
spatial dimensions.
And because the fourth dimension is expanding in units of the Planck
length, quantum mechanical behavior manifests itself in all phenomena
that touch upon the notion of tiny distances. However, over large
distances, the expansion of the fourth dimension seems smooth and
continuous. Thus space and time appear smooth and continuous over large
distances.
Likewise, although light has a probability of traveling slower or
faster than c, due to the quantum mechanical nature of the expansion of
the dimension that carries it through space, over large distances time
is observed to travel at a the constant rate of c.
Relativity and quantum mechanics have always existed peaceably in
nature, and now, via Moving Dimensions Theory, relativity and quantum
mechanics exist peaceably in theory too.
String Theory's Admitted Shortcomings FROM ITS TEXTBOOKS!!!:
The great irony of string theory, however, is that the theory itself is
not unified. To someone learning the theory for the first time, it is
often a frustrating collection of folklore, rules of thumb, and
intuition. (IN OTHER WORDS IT IS NOT PHYSICS!!!) At times, there seems
to be no rhyme or reason for many of the conventions of the model. For
a theory that makes the claim of providing a unifying framework for all
physical laws, it is the supreme irony that the theory itself appears
so disunited!!
Chapter 1. Path Integrals and Point Particles: Why Strings?
"Introduction to Superstrings and M-Theory," page 5. -Michio Kaku
Supersymmetry is one of the most elegant of all symmetries, uniting
bosons and fermions into a single multiplet:
Fermions ßà Bosons
By uniting fields of differing statistics, supersymmetry and
supergroups have also opened up an entirely new area of mathematics...
However, the irony is that there is not a single shred of experimental
evidence in its favor. For example, physicists have tried to fit the
electron or neutrino into supersymmetric multiplets, but the scalar
partners of these leptons have never been seen. In fact, none of the
presently known particles has a supersymmetric partner.
Chapter 3, Superstrings, Supersymmetric Point Particles - Michio Kaku
Should New Ideas be Allowed in Contemporary Physics?
All of physic's greatest hits are contained in simple postulates,
laws, and equations that have stood the test of time and provided a
lever by which we could disturb the universe. For this reason, I am
advocating a return to physics that is expressed in simple postulates,
laws, and equations that can be discussed and tested by experiment.
Postmodern theories such as string theory are dangerous to physics and
physicists alike. Like Narcissus, who fell in the water while staring
at his own reflection, it seems many String Theorists have fallen into
a world of reflection, where they're not looking at physical reality,
but only themselves. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been poured
into String Theory, and yet not one postulate, nor law, nor proof, nor
success.
But the purpose of this paper is not to criticize string theory, but to
light the way to a new day with a simple postulate: the fourth
dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
After Einstein published his two postulates of special relativity and
his foundational paper on quantum mechanics, it was yet many years, and
tens of thousands of man hours, before a nobler physics bore itself
out-the realm of physics that is now known as relativity, that has
stood the tests of time and continues to inspire young physicists. And
so it is that today, Quantum Mechanics and Relativity, which came out
of either side of Einstein's mind, are yet the towering beacons that
inspire young physicists. When one wants to see further, one climbs on
top of the shoulders of giants-Newton, Bohr, Einstein, Dirac,
Shrodinger, and Wheeler. And it was from such a vantage point that I
saw Moving Dimensions Theory.
Contemporary physics, like much of academia, is cluttered with
political factions, charlatans, hypesters, and fund-raisers. Such a
system is self-reinforcing, and as time goes on, truth means less and
less, as politics, hype, and blind-faith land the postdocs, government
grants, and tenure.
Young physicists are bullied by pomo-hipster "the truth does not
exist" String Theorists who tell questioning young physicists that
they cannot question. When the young physicists continue to question
undeterred, the tenured string theorist waves her hands and makes it
personal, projecting their infinite shortcomings, telling the young
physicists that simply cannot comprehend the beauty of the ten, eleven,
twenty-two, or thirty dimensions.
But there are changes afoot, and prominent physicists-Nobel Prize
winners and true leaders-are stepping forth to criticize string
theory:
"If Einstein were alive today, he would be horrified at this state of
affairs. He would upbraid the profession for allowing this mess to
develop and fly into a blind rage over the transformation of his
beautiful creations into ideologies and the resulting proliferation of
logical inconsistencies. Einstein was an artist and a scholar but above
all he was a revolutionary. His approach to physics might be summarized
as hypothesizing minimally. Never arguing with experiment, demanding
total logical consistency, and mistrusting unsubstantiated beliefs. The
unsubstantial belief of his day was ether, or more precisely the naïve
version of ether that preceded relativity. The unsubstantiated belief
of our day is relativity itself. It would be perfectly in character for
him to reexamine the facts, toss them over in his mind, and conclude
that his beloved principle of relativity was not fundamental at all but
emergent-a collective property of the matter constituting space-time
that becomes increasingly exact at long length scales but fails at
short ones. This is a different idea from his original one but
something fully compatible with it logically, and even more exciting
and potentially important. It would mean that the fabric of space-time
was not simply the stage on which life played out but an organizational
phenomenon, and that there might be something beyond." -A Different
Universe, Reinventing Physics From The Bottom Down, Robert B. Laughlin,
Winner of the Nobel Prize in physics for his work on the fractional
quantum Hall effect.
"Despite its having become embedded in the discipline, the idea of
absolute symmetry makes no sense. Symmetries are cause by things, not
he cause of things. If relativity is always true, then there has to be
an underlying reason. Attempts to evade this problem inevitably result
in contradictions. Thus if we try to write down relativistic equations
describing the spectroscopy of a vacuum, we discover that the equations
are mathematical nonsense unless either relativity or guage invariance,
an equally important symmetry, is postulated to fail at extremely short
distances. No workable fix to this problem has ever been discovered.
String theory, originally invented for this purpose, has not succeeded.
In addition to its legendary appetite for higher dimensions, it also
has problems at short length scales, albeit more subtle ones, and has
never been shown to evolve into the standard model at long length
scales, as required for compatibility with experiment." -A
Different Universe, Reinventing Physics From The Bottom Down, Robert B.
Laughlin, Winner of the Nobel Prize in physics for his work on the
fractional quantum Hall effect
"Thus the innocent observation that the vacuum of space is empty is
not innocent at all, but is instead compelling evidence that light and
gravity are linked and probably both collective in nature. Real light,
like real quantum-mechanical sound, differs from its idealized
Newtonian counterpart in containing energy even when it is stone cold.
According to the principle of relativity, this energy should have
generated mass, and this, in turn, should have generated gravity. We
have no idea why it does not, so we deal with the problem the way the
government might, namely by simply declaring empty space not to
gravitate. In chutzpah, this ranks with the famous case of the Indiana
state legislature passing a law declaring Pi to have the value three.
It also demonstrates the severity of the problem, for one does not
resort to such desperate measures when there are reasonable
alternatives. The desire to explain away the gravity paradox
microscopically is also the motivation for the invention of
supersymmetry, a mathematical construction that assigns a special
complementary partner to every known elementary particle. Were a
superpartner ever discovered in nature, the hope for a reductionist
explanation for the emptiness of space might be rekindled, but this has
not happened, at least not yet."
"[String Theory] has no practical utility, however, other than to
sustain the myth of the ultimate theory. There is no experimental
evidence for the existence of strings in nature, nor does the special
mathematics of string theory enable known experimental behavior to be
calculated or predicted more easily. Moreover, the complex
spectroscopic properties of space accessible with today's mighty
accelerators are accountable in only as "low-energy
phenomenology"-a pejorative term for transcendent emergent
properties of matter impossible to calculate from first principles.
String theory is, in fact, a textbook case of Deceitful Turkey, a
beautiful set of ideas that will always remain just barely out of
reach. Far from a wonderful technological hope for a greater tomorrow,
it is instead the tragic consequence of an obsolete belief system-in
which emergence plays no role and dark law does not exist."
-A Different Universe, Reinventing Physics From The Bottom Down,
Robert B. Laughlin, Winner of the Nobel Prize in physics for his work
on the fractional quantum Hall effect.
"The master antitheory of the age is the idea that there is no
fundamental thing left to discover, so that the world we inhabit is
simply a swarm of detail that belongs to no one and thus can be
legitimately handled by business tactics-resource management,
competitive advertising, survival of the fittest, and so forth. A
corollary is that there is no absolute truth, but only products, like
shirts or hamburgers, that one throws away when their usefulness is
exhausted. Antitheories are dangerous ideologies not only because they
impede inquiry but because they lull one into ignoring threats that
one's opponents can exploit to their advantage."
-A Different Universe, Reinventing Physics From The Bottom Down,
Robert B. Laughlin, Winner of the Nobel Prize in physics for his work
on the fractional quantum Hall effect.
Acceleration occurs when an object is rotated in space-time, and the
conservation of momentum and energy were based on the conservation of
something more fundamental-the conservation of dimension.
Conservation Laws: Newton's Laws & The Law of Inertia
The conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum can be
expressed as the conservation of rotation in space-time. Every particle
has a probability of existing in ace or time. A photon has close to a
100% probability of existing in time and close to a 0% chance of
existing in space. Mass has close to a 100% chance of existing in
space, and close to 0% chance of existing in time. When one adds
photons to massive objects, one gives them energy, the net photon-mass
object has a greater chance of existing in time than did the massive
object on its own.
The Purpose of Physics
The purpose of physics has ever been to unify diverse physical
phenomena with simple postulates, laws, and formulas reflecting the
deeper physical reality. MDT unifies relativity and quantum mechanics
by positing that they are both emergent properties of moving
dimensions. MDT's simple postulate-the fourth dimension is
expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions-offers the first
satisfactory explanation of the Einstein Podolsky Rosen (EPR) effect
and the nonlocal behavior inherent to the math and physical reality of
quantum mechanics. Time itself is viewed not as the fourth dimension,
but as an emergent phenomena arising from the expansion of the fourth
dimension relative to the three spatial dimensions. This logic
alleviates a confusion of time with an actual fourth dimension where
one can travel back and forth at will, thus addressing Godel's,
Einstein's, Hawking's, Barbour's, and Penrose's concerns about
frozen time, and accounting for time's relentless arrow, the second
law of thermodynamics, and entropy.
This is but a brief treatment of a much larger project.
The General Postulate of Moving Dimensions Theory:
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial
dimensions.
The Specific Postulate of Moving Dimensions Theory:
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial
dimensions at the rate of c in quantized units of the Planck length.
http://physicsmathforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=57
http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=13&threadID=1304533&messageID=4108067
http://physicsmathforums.com/
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Minus XVII" |
|
| Title: Re: A CONVERSTAION WITH PENROSE ET. AL-- MOVING DIMENSIONS THEORY EXPLAINS AWAY THE "BLOCK UNIVERSE" |
07 Feb 2006 09:29:38 PM |
|
|
in practice, no-one has a problem with
this part of your expose, regardless
of any claims of einsteinmaniaologists
(cosmic reverberaration of the Sound
of one hand, Clapping .-)
in other words, it's really some thing that stands
on its own, without need of a "new cosmogyny," or
New Age storytelling.
thus quoth:
because of physicists misleadingly labeling "time" the fourth
dimension, thus implying that just as we can move anywhere in the three
spatial dimensions, such as up and down and back again, so too can we
move anywhere in the time dimension, to the past, the future, and back
again, implying that both the past and future must exist, as sure as
--Give Earth a Trickier ***** Cheeny -- out of office, after gigayears!
http://larouchepub.com/other/2003/3045dems_dive_soros.html
http://tarpley.net/bush8.htm
http://www.benfranklinbooks.com/
http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac
http://www.wlym.com/pdf/iclc/howthenation.pdf
http://larouchepub.com/other/2003/3048iraq_58_const.html
http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/figs/plate01.html
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
