A question of purpose



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "uri"
Date: 19 Dec 2006 02:55:45 AM
Object: A question of purpose
One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
intelligent life.
Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
randomly configured universes continually form.
But if consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe and
planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
other words, if there is some kind of God, then what can we know about
this God?
Some people claim that God intervenes in human affairs, but apart from
myth and superstition, there is absolutely no evidence that any
supernatural event has ever occurred in the history of the universe.
And there is no reason to suspect that any intervention would ever be
necessary.
http://www.evolutionary-metaphysics.net/evolutionary_metaphysics.html
.

User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 06:36:40 AM
"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message
news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...

One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
intelligent life.
Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
randomly configured universes continually form.
But if consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe and
planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
other words, if there is some kind of God, then what can we know about
this God?

Regarding the above, nobody knows. That's why belief of any type requires
faith.

Some people claim that God intervenes in human affairs, but apart from
myth and superstition, there is absolutely no evidence that any
supernatural event has ever occurred in the history of the universe.
And there is no reason to suspect that any intervention would ever be
necessary.

Some people believe Jesus is that single intervention.
.
User: "Milan"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 07:59:04 AM
"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:s1Rhh.2413$Jb6.478@trnddc03...

"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message
news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...

One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
intelligent life.
Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
randomly configured universes continually form.
But if consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe and
planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
other words, if there is some kind of God, then what can we know about
this God?


Regarding the above, nobody knows. That's why belief of any type requires
faith.

Some people claim that God intervenes in human affairs, but apart from
myth and superstition, there is absolutely no evidence that any
supernatural event has ever occurred in the history of the universe.
And there is no reason to suspect that any intervention would ever be
necessary.


Some people believe Jesus is that single intervention.


How about the parting of the Red Sea, the stopping of the sun, the burning
of Sodom and Gomorrah, the meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in mount Sinai,
and all the other amazing things that happen in the old testament?
regards
Milan
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 11:18:24 AM
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4uq9o2F19cs2gU1@mid.individual.net...

"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:s1Rhh.2413$Jb6.478@trnddc03...

"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message
news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...

One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
intelligent life.
Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
randomly configured universes continually form.
But if consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe and
planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
other words, if there is some kind of God, then what can we know about
this God?

Regarding the above, nobody knows. That's why belief of any type
requires faith.

Some people claim that God intervenes in human affairs, but apart from
myth and superstition, there is absolutely no evidence that any
supernatural event has ever occurred in the history of the universe.
And there is no reason to suspect that any intervention would ever be
necessary.

Some people believe Jesus is that single intervention.

How about the parting of the Red Sea, the stopping of the sun, the burning
of Sodom and Gomorrah, the meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in mount Sinai,
and all the other amazing things that happen in the old testament?

How do you know they really happenned? You weren't there, neither was I.
There may be a geologic explanation for the temporary and incomplete parting
of the Red Sea. Maybe, I'm not sure.
We have no scientific proof the Sun ever stopped. What we do have is a huge
pile of actual rock-solid science tellling us that its impossible.
Maybe some heathen bastards were knocking the bottom out of it and tipped
over an oil lamp and set Sodom and Gomorrah on fire? Something not unlike
that set the entire city of Chicago on fire.
The meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in mount Sinai? I wasn't there. Moses
sure did screw up the Ten Commandments, so maybe he shoulda brought some
friends to help.
I can't say these things didn't happen. I'm just saying that a person MUST
have a faith-based belief in them because there's no other way to explain
them.
.
User: "Milan"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 12:07:22 PM
"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A9Vhh.4883$od6.1837@trnddc04...

"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4uq9o2F19cs2gU1@mid.individual.net...

"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:s1Rhh.2413$Jb6.478@trnddc03...

"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message
news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...

One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
intelligent life.
Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
randomly configured universes continually form.
But if consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe and
planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
other words, if there is some kind of God, then what can we know about
this God?

Regarding the above, nobody knows. That's why belief of any type
requires faith.

Some people claim that God intervenes in human affairs, but apart from
myth and superstition, there is absolutely no evidence that any
supernatural event has ever occurred in the history of the universe.
And there is no reason to suspect that any intervention would ever be
necessary.

Some people believe Jesus is that single intervention.

How about the parting of the Red Sea, the stopping of the sun, the
burning of Sodom and Gomorrah, the meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in
mount Sinai, and all the other amazing things that happen in the old
testament?


How do you know they really happenned? You weren't there, neither was I.
There may be a geologic explanation for the temporary and incomplete
parting of the Red Sea. Maybe, I'm not sure.

We have no scientific proof the Sun ever stopped. What we do have is a
huge pile of actual rock-solid science tellling us that its impossible.

Maybe some heathen bastards were knocking the bottom out of it and tipped
over an oil lamp and set Sodom and Gomorrah on fire? Something not unlike
that set the entire city of Chicago on fire.

The meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in mount Sinai? I wasn't there.
Moses sure did screw up the Ten Commandments, so maybe he shoulda brought
some friends to help.

I can't say these things didn't happen. I'm just saying that a person
MUST have a faith-based belief in them because there's no other way to
explain them.

Well, of course there is a very good and well-tested way to explain them:
they are myths and legends. Humanity has written myths for millennia. We
still have plenty of urban legends around.
regards
Milan
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 04:21:51 PM
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4uqo9jF197pvtU1@mid.individual.net...

"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A9Vhh.4883$od6.1837@trnddc04...

"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4uq9o2F19cs2gU1@mid.individual.net...

"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:s1Rhh.2413$Jb6.478@trnddc03...

"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message
news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...

One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
intelligent life.
Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
randomly configured universes continually form.
But if consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe
and
planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
other words, if there is some kind of God, then what can we know about
this God?

Regarding the above, nobody knows. That's why belief of any type
requires faith.

Some people claim that God intervenes in human affairs, but apart from
myth and superstition, there is absolutely no evidence that any
supernatural event has ever occurred in the history of the universe.
And there is no reason to suspect that any intervention would ever be
necessary.

Some people believe Jesus is that single intervention.

How about the parting of the Red Sea, the stopping of the sun, the
burning of Sodom and Gomorrah, the meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in
mount Sinai, and all the other amazing things that happen in the old
testament?

How do you know they really happenned? You weren't there, neither was I.
There may be a geologic explanation for the temporary and incomplete
parting of the Red Sea. Maybe, I'm not sure.
We have no scientific proof the Sun ever stopped. What we do have is a
huge pile of actual rock-solid science tellling us that its impossible.
Maybe some heathen bastards were knocking the bottom out of it and tipped
over an oil lamp and set Sodom and Gomorrah on fire? Something not
unlike that set the entire city of Chicago on fire.
The meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in mount Sinai? I wasn't there.
Moses sure did screw up the Ten Commandments, so maybe he shoulda brought
some friends to help.
I can't say these things didn't happen. I'm just saying that a person
MUST have a faith-based belief in them because there's no other way to
explain them.

Well, of course there is a very good and well-tested way to explain them:
they are myths and legends. Humanity has written myths for millennia. We
still have plenty of urban legends around.

That's not an explanation. You're merely categorizing them.
Why would someone invent an elaborate story for a city burning when "The
***** knocked over the fucking lamp" would suffice?
Why wouldn't someone take credit for walking 800 miles (or whatever it is)
around the Red Sea and instead invent the (otherwise) silly story?
(The Sun stopping was probably an eclipse, but who knows?)
And if you've studied myths and urban legends you should know that virtually
all of them have some basis in a factual event-based origin. But especially
with religious mythology we see many of the same basic events in most
religions when there was no possible cross-contamination of cultures.
That doesn't prove they happenned. It just suggests that we don't know the
whole story.
.
User: "Milan"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 05:13:04 PM
"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3CZhh.7986$hy6.2938@trnddc05...

"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4uqo9jF197pvtU1@mid.individual.net...

"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A9Vhh.4883$od6.1837@trnddc04...

"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4uq9o2F19cs2gU1@mid.individual.net...

"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:s1Rhh.2413$Jb6.478@trnddc03...

"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message
news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...

One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution
of
intelligent life.
Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation
is
required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
randomly configured universes continually form.
But if consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe
and
planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
other words, if there is some kind of God, then what can we know
about
this God?

Regarding the above, nobody knows. That's why belief of any type
requires faith.

Some people claim that God intervenes in human affairs, but apart
from
myth and superstition, there is absolutely no evidence that any
supernatural event has ever occurred in the history of the universe.
And there is no reason to suspect that any intervention would ever be
necessary.

Some people believe Jesus is that single intervention.

How about the parting of the Red Sea, the stopping of the sun, the
burning of Sodom and Gomorrah, the meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in
mount Sinai, and all the other amazing things that happen in the old
testament?

How do you know they really happenned? You weren't there, neither was
I. There may be a geologic explanation for the temporary and incomplete
parting of the Red Sea. Maybe, I'm not sure.
We have no scientific proof the Sun ever stopped. What we do have is a
huge pile of actual rock-solid science tellling us that its impossible.
Maybe some heathen bastards were knocking the bottom out of it and
tipped over an oil lamp and set Sodom and Gomorrah on fire? Something
not unlike that set the entire city of Chicago on fire.
The meeting of Moses with Yahweh up in mount Sinai? I wasn't there.
Moses sure did screw up the Ten Commandments, so maybe he shoulda
brought some friends to help.
I can't say these things didn't happen. I'm just saying that a person
MUST have a faith-based belief in them because there's no other way to
explain them.

Well, of course there is a very good and well-tested way to explain them:
they are myths and legends. Humanity has written myths for millennia. We
still have plenty of urban legends around.


That's not an explanation. You're merely categorizing them.

Why would someone invent an elaborate story for a city burning when "The
***** knocked over the fucking lamp" would suffice?

Why wouldn't someone take credit for walking 800 miles (or whatever it is)
around the Red Sea and instead invent the (otherwise) silly story?

Good point. Why would Tolkien write over 2,000 pages of Lord of The Rings
and other stories, instead of just giving us a 500-word summary of the
events. There is no doubt that the events told in Lord of the Rings are
historical.

(The Sun stopping was probably an eclipse, but who knows?)

And if you've studied myths and urban legends you should know that
virtually all of them have some basis in a factual event-based origin.
But especially with religious mythology we see many of the same basic
events in most religions when there was no possible cross-contamination of
cultures.

There was no possible cross-contamination of cultures? Which cultures are so
impermeable?. We have the narrative of the flood in the bible which was
taken almost word by word from the Babylonian saga of Gilgamesh. The
israelites coexisted with the Babylonians, with the Egyptians and with many
other peoples -and their culture and religious narratives were heavily
influenced by them.
During the Roman period many elements of paganism were incorporated into the
Christian mythology. Christian mythology contains numerous elements borrowed
from earlier pagan myths - the virgin birth, the miracles, the worship of a
godman who dies, resurrects, flies away into heaven and brings salvation to
humankind; initiation by baptism, communion with the gods through a holy
meal which represents the flesh of the dead god, the Holy Spirit, the
immortality of the soul, etc etc. These were all central elements of many
pagan myths that existed centuries before Christianity was invented by Paul
et al.
regards
Milan
.





User: "j_hawk1979"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 08:17:59 AM
Patriot Games wrote:

"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message
news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...

One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
intelligent life.
Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
randomly configured universes continually form.
But if consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe and
planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
other words, if there is some kind of God, then what can we know about
this God?


Regarding the above, nobody knows. That's why belief of any type requires
faith.

Some people claim that God intervenes in human affairs, but apart from
myth and superstition, there is absolutely no evidence that any
supernatural event has ever occurred in the history of the universe.
And there is no reason to suspect that any intervention would ever be
necessary.


Some people believe Jesus is that single intervention.

I think Uri is correct...i think she/he...made more sense...then
anyone...and yes including myself...
and i also think Faith plays an important part...for does who do
believe...
Example:
Einstein, believed and/or had faith or (whatever you call it) in
himself and his projects. And saw proof....enough proof for HIM to
cont... on what he was trying to discover. I'm sure he shared his
idea's with many other people...and some would not agree until they saw
solid proof.
My point is that, people that believe or have faith that a high power
does exist...it's probably becuz they have enough proof like personal
experiences for THEMSELF to cont... on the road that they on...
And in order to find the answer....someone/people have to step up...
.
User: "Phineas T Puddleduck"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 08:19:58 AM
In article <1166537878.992154.305280@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com>,
"j_hawk1979" <j_hawk1979@yahoo.com> wrote:


My point is that, people that believe or have faith that a high power
does exist...it's probably becuz they have enough proof like personal
experiences for THEMSELF to cont... on the road that they on...

And in order to find the answer....someone/people have to step up...

Faith and science don't have to be mortal enemies.
--
You know you've arrived when you've annoyed the cranks! Crank Hater proves his
stupidity here!
http://groups.google.gr/group/sci.physics/msg/f9488b70976a3a4b?&hl=en
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 11:22:15 AM
"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineaspuddleduck@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:phineaspuddleduck-97906F.14195819122006@free.teranews.com...

Faith and science don't have to be mortal enemies.

Actually they should be the best of friends. Our Universe is incredibly
amazing and if there's a God then He sure is one excellent scientist!
.




User: "Sorcerer"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 03:50:38 AM
"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message =
news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
| One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
| provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
| can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
| the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
| intelligent life.
|=20
| Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
| cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
| required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
| this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
| and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
| randomly configured universes continually form.
|=20
| But if=20
In hypothetical sentences introduced by 'if' and referring to
past time, where conditions are to be deemed 'unfulfilled',=20
the verb will regularly be found in the pluperfect subjunctive,
in both protasis and apodosis.=20
-- Donet, "Principles of Elementary Latin Syntax"
=20
consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
| humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
| process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe =
and
| planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
| other words, if there is some kind of God,
You mentioned "God". One way to debate the existence of God=20
without causing confusion or provoking anger is not to mention
the word 'God' at all. Now you've made me confused and angry,
so go away with your god stuff.=20
| then what can we know about
| this God?
You mentioned "God". One way to debate the existence of God=20
without causing confusion or provoking anger is not to mention
the word 'God' at all. Now you've made me doubly confused=20
and angry, so ***** off with your god *****.=20
|=20
| Some people claim that God
You mentioned "God". One way to debate the existence of God=20
without causing confusion or provoking anger is not to mention
the word 'God' at all. Now you've made me triply confused and=20
angry, so ***** with your god crap, you stupid *****!=20
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 12:01:24 PM
Sorcerer wrote:

"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in message news:1166518545.383727.157530@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
| One way to debate the existence of God without causing confusion or
| provoking anger is not to mention the word 'God' at all. The question
| can instead be phrased ... whether or not there is any purpose behind
| the existence of the universe or any intention behind the evolution of
| intelligent life.
|
| Perhaps the atheists are right, and this universe is just a mindless
| cosmic machine that exists for no reason and no further explanation is
| required. Or perhaps the skeptical scientists are right, and beyond
| this universe there exists an infinite multitude of other universes,
| and beyond them lies a higher dimension filled with chaos from which
| randomly configured universes continually form.
|
| But if

In hypothetical sentences introduced by 'if' and referring to
past time, where conditions are to be deemed 'unfulfilled',
the verb will regularly be found in the pluperfect subjunctive,
in both protasis and apodosis.
-- Donet, "Principles of Elementary Latin Syntax"



consciousness does have some kind of cosmic purpose; if
| humankind was brought into existence by some purposeful creative
| process beyond space and time, a process that designed the universe and
| planned the events that led to the evolution of intelligent life, in
| other words, if there is some kind of God,

You mentioned "God". One way to debate the existence of God
without causing confusion or provoking anger is not to mention
the word 'God' at all. Now you've made me confused and angry,
so go away with your god stuff.



| then what can we know about
| this God?

You mentioned "God". One way to debate the existence of God
without causing confusion or provoking anger is not to mention
the word 'God' at all. Now you've made me doubly confused
and angry, so ***** off with your god *****.

|
| Some people claim that God

You mentioned "God". One way to debate the existence of God
without causing confusion or provoking anger is not to mention
the word 'God' at all. Now you've made me triply confused and
angry, so ***** with your god crap, you stupid *****!

But what if the idea of God or gods are instinctual and partially
inborn and developed when humans interact with the environment
determining their particular varient of human nature? What if also the
desire to speak of said instinct is also an instinct? In that case do
we ignore these drives like a young man can ignore a buxom blonde?
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 04:13:39 PM
"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166551284.402364.170910@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...

But what if the idea of God or gods are instinctual and partially
inborn and developed when humans interact with the environment
determining their particular varient of human nature? What if also the
desire to speak of said instinct is also an instinct? In that case do
we ignore these drives like a young man can ignore a buxom blonde?

What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?
.
User: "Craig Franck"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 06:11:14 PM
"Patriot Games" wrote

"Immortalist" wrote

But what if the idea of God or gods are instinctual and partially
inborn and developed when humans interact with the environment
determining their particular varient of human nature? What if also the
desire to speak of said instinct is also an instinct? In that case do
we ignore these drives like a young man can ignore a buxom blonde?


What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

The development of increasingly complex social behavior and
institutions. The Greek Pantheon is just basically just a huge
collection of dysfunctional people who happen to be Gods.
There is also a strong tendency to become hypnotized by
language that arises from a confusion between the abstract
and concrete. It doesn't help that most people are compulsive
thinkers and will seize on any idea that seems to make them
feel better.
--
Craig Franck
craig.franck@verizon.net
Cortland, NY
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 20 Dec 2006 08:52:24 AM
"Craig Franck" <craig.franck@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Cc%hh.4868$WS4.2316@trndny07...

"Patriot Games" wrote

"Immortalist" wrote

But what if the idea of God or gods are instinctual and partially
inborn and developed when humans interact with the environment
determining their particular varient of human nature? What if also the
desire to speak of said instinct is also an instinct? In that case do
we ignore these drives like a young man can ignore a buxom blonde?

What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

The development of increasingly complex social behavior and
institutions. The Greek Pantheon is just basically just a huge
collection of dysfunctional people who happen to be Gods.
There is also a strong tendency to become hypnotized by
language that arises from a confusion between the abstract
and concrete. It doesn't help that most people are compulsive
thinkers and will seize on any idea that seems to make them
feel better.

But you wrote "instinctual and partially inborn and developed when humans
interact with the environment" and my question is: What, in the pre-human
evolutionary process that led to humans with thinking brains, put the
god-thinking instinct in our brains and why?
.
User: "Craig Franck"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 20 Dec 2006 05:18:01 PM
"Patriot Games" wrote

"Craig Franck" wrote

"Patriot Games" wrote

"Immortalist" wrote

But what if the idea of God or gods are instinctual and partially
inborn and developed when humans interact with the environment
determining their particular varient of human nature? What if also the
desire to speak of said instinct is also an instinct? In that case do
we ignore these drives like a young man can ignore a buxom blonde?

What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?


The development of increasingly complex social behavior and
institutions. The Greek Pantheon is just basically just a huge
collection of dysfunctional people who happen to be Gods.
There is also a strong tendency to become hypnotized by
language that arises from a confusion between the abstract
and concrete. It doesn't help that most people are compulsive
thinkers and will seize on any idea that seems to make them
feel better.


But you wrote "instinctual and partially inborn and developed when humans
interact with the environment" and my question is: What, in the pre-human
evolutionary process that led to humans with thinking brains, put the
god-thinking instinct in our brains and why?

It was actually Immortalist who wrote that. But I think it's clear
the answer is that we evolved an ability to intuit the mental
states of other people, and then we projected this onto the
environment.
Initially, it was probably in the form of a primitive animism
(everything has a mind like myself), and then evolved into a
vehicle of explanation (the sun disappeared today: nature's
pissed!)
Then we anthropomorphized God as being the driving force
behind the world. The more developed societies came to see
God as some kind of technocrat who set creation in motion,
a kind of a cosmic father figure.
So the precise instinct I'm proposing is we interacted with other
people in the environment in a way that forced us to model
their mental states to ourselves. Compulsive socialization
causes people to invent all kinds of things.
--
Craig Franck
craig.franck@verizon.net
Cortland, NY
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 21 Dec 2006 07:14:20 AM
"Craig Franck" <craig.franck@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Jwjih.8895$386.7497@trndny01...

It was actually Immortalist who wrote that. But I think it's clear
the answer is that we evolved an ability to intuit the mental
states of other people, and then we projected this onto the
environment.
[...]
So the precise instinct I'm proposing is we interacted with other
people in the environment in a way that forced us to model
their mental states to ourselves. Compulsive socialization
causes people to invent all kinds of things.

There are sooo many problems with that. How'd it get in our DNA? Why only
humans? 6,000 years ago there was ZERO cultural cross-contamination yet we
spontaneously came up with this in 12 different places on the globe?
It doesn't work for me.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: A question of purpose 21 Dec 2006 08:20:16 AM
In article <MMvih.3917$Jb6.1344@trnddc03>,
"Patriot Games" <Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com> wrote:

"Craig Franck" <craig.franck@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Jwjih.8895$386.7497@trndny01...

It was actually Immortalist who wrote that. But I think it's clear
the answer is that we evolved an ability to intuit the mental
states of other people, and then we projected this onto the
environment.
[...]
So the precise instinct I'm proposing is we interacted with other
people in the environment in a way that forced us to model
their mental states to ourselves. Compulsive socialization
causes people to invent all kinds of things.


There are sooo many problems with that. How'd it get in our DNA?

Has it? Or could it be the side effect of having sexes?
<snip>
/BAH
.





User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 19 Dec 2006 07:01:08 PM
Patriot Games wrote:

"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166551284.402364.170910@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...

But what if the idea of God or gods are instinctual and partially
inborn and developed when humans interact with the environment
determining their particular varient of human nature? What if also the
desire to speak of said instinct is also an instinct? In that case do
we ignore these drives like a young man can ignore a buxom blonde?


What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

Over-active "agency detection systems" which result in attributions to
patterned movements. Say a few twigs in a bush hint an outline of an
animal. Those who made these mistakes survived.
Humans routinely attribute intentions, beliefs, and desires in order to
interpret the behavior of others. Other humans are seen as agents, that
is, as entities that pursue goals in accordance with their beliefs and
desires. Attributions of agency are so ubiquitous that they are
typically taken for granted in everyday life. These attributions are
not always correct in identifying the beliefs and desires that underlie
a specific action of an agent; yet, if people did not see others as
agents, the capacity to understand their behavior would be severely
impaired. For example, people would be surprised when others got up and
moved. Abundant research documents children's acquisition of human
agent concepts over the first several years of life (Astington et al.,
1988; Perner, 1993; Wellman, 1990), but there is little work available
on the development of non-human agent concepts. Yet, people often
attribute intentions, beliefs and desires to animals as well as to
ghosts, gods, demons, and monsters.
http://cogprints.org/2363/
Religious Thought and Behaviour As By-products of Brain Function.
Religious concepts activate various functionally distinct mental
systems, present also in non-religious contexts, and 'tweak' the
usual inferences of these systems. They deal with detection and
representation of animacy and agency, social exchange, moral
intuitions, precaution against natural hazards and understanding of
misfortune. Each of these activates distinct neural resources or
families of networks. What makes notions of supernatural agency
intuitively plausible? This article reviews evidence suggesting that it
is the joint, coordinated activation of these diverse systems, a
supposition that opens up the prospect of a cognitive neuroscience of
religious beliefs.
http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~pboyer/BoyerTiCS.pdf
Specific brain structures evolved to perform specific inferences
related to basic survival (especially relevant are predatory and
contagion inference) and the numerous inter-related systems used for
conspecific interaction and cooperation. [It is especially important to
understand that most inferences operate apart from conscious
perception.] After comprehensive discussion of the multitudinous,
interactive inference systems, Boyer describes how they collectively
work to form religion. He explains that most varieties religious
concepts (gods, spirits and other supernatural agents and their
abilities; morality; death issues, etc.) and public behavior (rituals
and prayer, religious-associated violence) can be explained in terms of
these inference systems.
Religion Explained: The Human Instincts That Fashion Gods, Spirits and
Ancestors by Pascal Boyer
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi=ADdos/ASIN/0465006965/
..=2E.Why are we humans predisposed to have only these kinds of religious
concepts? Boyer's answer, in brief, is that our brains have been
"designed by evolution" to employ particular cognitive systems that
help us to make sense of "particular aspects of objects around us and
produce specific kinds of inferences about them." There are, for
instance, brain-systems in this sense that deal with inanimate
objects, others that deal with human persons, and yet others that deal
with supernatural agents. Just as our brains have become by evolution
such that they inevitably (and mostly unconsciously) deploy the complex
inferential systems that permit us to survive and get around in a world
of inanimate objects, so they also have become such that we find ideas
about full-access strategic agents to be plausible because these
ideas generate for us rich inferences about how to behave and what
choices to make, and they do so with particular richness in a social
context in which we can reasonably assume that everyone else shares
such ideas.
Boyer thus reverses many traditional attempts to explain religion away.
It is not that we invent the gods because by so doing we can meet needs
otherwise difficult to satisfy, or because they permit us to explain
things otherwise hard to explain, or because they give us the illusion
of comfort in a harsh and comfortless world, or because they give us
persuasive reasons to act morally. It is, rather, that evolution has
equipped us (or most of us) with certain proclivities or dispositions
to explain misfortune, gain scarce social goods, and act morally (by
which Boyer means, roughly, acting in such a way as evolutionarily to
benefit either ourselves or the tribe). Moreover, these proclivities
dispose us to accept and act upon the idea that there are gods-or, if
you prefer, full-access strategic agents. Evolution, in Boyer's
story, makes all of us likely worshipers in much the same way that it
makes all of us likely language-users. We are innately predisposed
for both, and so such disparate religious traditions as Christian
theology, Islamic law, and Buddhist metaphysics are merely different
forms of baroque ornamentations added on to an evolutionary edifice.
..=2E.Boyer's explanation for the attractiveness of Mass-going is that
it is a "snare for thought that produces highly salient effects by
activating special systems in the mental basement."
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0201/reviews/griffiths.html
On Instinctual Inference Systems & How they Are Templates [roads] in
Which Particualar Memes Are Traffic.
-------------
Boyer focuses on the inference systems and intuitive expectations of
evolved human brain capacities to account for the biocultural origin of
religious concepts and supernatural agents (e.g., gods, ghosts, demons,
spirits, and witches).
How and why do religions deal with death?
How do infants have precise intuitions and how do we know this?
Why is fundamentalism a biological process?
Why is religion here to stay?
["religious concepts are parasitic upon other mental capacities"]
..=2E.the variety of human religious concepts is not infinite, suggesting
an underlying pattern in the way certain kinds of religious concepts
engage the mind by "successful activation of a whole variety of mental
systems." These patterns increase the probability that such concepts
will be remembered and transmitted.
http://www.wordtrade.com/socie=ADty/anthropologyreligion.htm
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 20 Dec 2006 09:15:10 AM
"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166576468.741592.301180@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...

What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

Over-active "agency detection systems" which result in attributions to
patterned movements. Say a few twigs in a bush hint an outline of an
animal. Those who made these mistakes survived.

So, pre-humans thought they saw God in a pile of leaves and that thought was
powerful enough to be encoded into our DNA???

It is, rather, that evolution has
equipped us (or most of us) with certain proclivities or dispositions
to explain misfortune, gain scarce social goods, and act morally (by
which Boyer means, roughly, acting in such a way as evolutionarily to
benefit either ourselves or the tribe).

Is Boyer in touch with the folks over at the Human Genome Project? Because
they should be looking for his Belief Gene(s).
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 20 Dec 2006 12:21:35 PM
Patriot Games wrote:

"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166576468.741592.301180@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...

What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

Over-active "agency detection systems" which result in attributions to
patterned movements. Say a few twigs in a bush hint an outline of an
animal. Those who made these mistakes survived.


So, pre-humans thought they saw God in a pile of leaves and that thought was
powerful enough to be encoded into our DNA???

The idea is that those with traits promoting "jumping to conclusions"
and "making wagers acted upon" lived and the others died, therefore we
feel good when we suppose gods. THose who attributed animal agency to
peculiar auditory and visual patterns, lived, others died or got their
gene frequencies much reduced by the ignorance of potential agents and
their religious like gambal.
A new theory of cognitive biases, called error management theory (EMT),
proposes that psychological mechanisms are designed to be predictably
biased when the costs of false-positive and false-negative errors were
asymmetrical over evolutionary history. This theory explains known
phenomena such as men's overperception of women's sexual intent, and it
predicts new biases in social inference such as women's underestimation
of men's commitment.
Buss comments on Error Management Theory. In an uncertain world, two
potential errors in thinking: a. partner having affair (but isn't) b.
partner isn't having affair (but is) The cost of making those two
errors are very different. Those making the first error have less cost
(from a reproductive success standpoint) than those who make the
second. Theoretically we evolved toward vigilance and are more likely
to make adaptive error. Explains why men and women sometimes have
delusions that a partner is unfaithful or might be. "It's not paranoia
if they're really out to get you!"
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/releases/2002/pr020103.cfm
Error Management Theory
Humans live in an uncertain world. We rely on our senses to pick up
information from the world, and then use our information processing
capacities to make inferences about the true state of the world. Real
threats to our survival and relationships are not always readily
apparent, given the ambiguity and uncertainty of the information.
Consider a relatively simple problem of walking through the woods and
fleetingly sensing a slithering object scurry underneath some leaves in
the path directly in front of you. There are two possible states of
reality: either there is a dangerous snake in your path or there is not
a dangerous snake in your path. Given the incomplete and uncertain
information that you have percieved, there are also two inferences you
could make. There is indeed a dangerous snake, and you act to avoid it.
Or you could conclude that there is no snake and continue walking down
the path.
There are also two possible ways that you could be wrong. You could
believe that there is a snake when in fact no snake exists. Or you
could believe that no snake when in fact a venomous rattler is lurking
right in your path. The costs of these two types of errors, however,
are vastly different. In the first case, your belief causes you to
incur the trivial metabolic cost of taking an unnecessary evasive
action. By giving a wide birth to the area that you believe harbors a
snake, you have merely gone out of your way a little, incurring a minor
delay in your walk. In the second case, however, failing to detect a
snake that is in fact lurking in your path can cost you your life. THe
two ways of being wrong carry substantially different costs.
Now imagine that this scenario not only repeats itself thousands and
thousands of times in your liftime, but billions and billions of times
over human evolutionary history. Those who made the first kind of
mistake tended to survive, whereas those who made the second kind of
mistake tended to die. As a result, modern humans have descended from a
line of ancestors whose inferences about the uncertain world erred in
the direction of believing that snakes existed more than they do. These
can be called adaptive errors.
Consider uncertainty about whether your romantic partner is having an
affair or is likely to have an affair.... Continued on page 76 The
Dangerous Passion - Why jealousy is necessary as love and sex - David M
Buss
The Dangerous Passion:
Why Jealousy Is As Necessary As Love and Sex
by David M. Buss
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684850818/

It is, rather, that evolution has
equipped us (or most of us) with certain proclivities or dispositions
to explain misfortune, gain scarce social goods, and act morally (by
which Boyer means, roughly, acting in such a way as evolutionarily to
benefit either ourselves or the tribe).


Is Boyer in touch with the folks over at the Human Genome Project? Because
they should be looking for his Belief Gene(s).

Yes, and if we find these nerve groups, we probably find the parts of
the brain which performs mediate and immidieate inference and hence
logical structures mammals have inborn.
THE PROBABILITY INSTINCT
It looks as if Kant, who thought our minds structure our perceptions,
was right. Probability was built into our minds. Our minds, the
electrochemical symphony that our narrowly evolved neural ganglia play,
impose an infrastructure on our thinking. The mind imposes a background
of time and space and causal connectedness. Scientists have never seen
a "causality" in the wild. They have seen, and they predict, only
space-time events that follow space-time events. Apples on the tree,
then apples in the air, then apples on the ground. Equations and
correlations have replaced causes, just as science has largely replaced
philosophy and religion as a theory of things. No causal germ in one
event unfolds into another event. But the mind, as eighteenth-century
philosopher David Hume observed, makes it seem so and inserts the
causal links in the event chain.
Probability seems to be part of the same mental infrastructure. It
forms part of our mental background or viewing screen along with time
and space and causality and similarity and the topological notions of
continuity and connectedness. We see probability everywhere because it
lies in our glasses.
I believe that probability or "randomness" is a psychic instinct or
Jungian archetype or mental trend that helps us organize our
perceptions and memories and most of all our expectations. Probability
gives structure to our competing causal predictions about how the
future will unfold in the next instant or day or season or millennium.
Probability ranks or weights the future alternatives. Our expectations
then blend or average these future alternatives into a single
probability-weighted average. The probability weights do not exist
outside our minds. They have no physical reality but have a powerful
psychological reality rooted in our neural mi-crostructure. Hume also
thought that we make up probability as we go and use it to fill in gaps
in our mind schemes or world views: "Though there be no such thing as
chance in the world, our ignorance of the real cause of any event has
the same influence on the understanding and begets a like species of
belief."
This probability instinct seems to cut across cultures and may cut
across species. Besides the probability-laden psychology of scientists
and most nonscientists, the widespread gambling and games of chance in
primitive and modern cultures suggest that probability "reasoning" may
be a cultural constant like hero worship or fertility rituals or incest
and adultery taboos. A cultural constant suggests a biological
substrate, and that requires an evolutionary history.
Ranking future alternatives can help pass on genes. Those who could so
rank may have eaten those who could not. It allows us to bet before we
act and improve the outcome of acting. That forward-looking ability has
supreme survival value in biological evolution, the genetic variation
and selection in the last few million years that has finely sculpted
our brains and minds, and in the prior evolution that sculpted the
brains and minds of our mammalian ancestors in the last 220 million
years. Natural selection filters out organisms as they cross the fuzzy
line from the present to the future. Natural selection favors brain
mechanisms that help an organism make its next move in a changing and
dangerous world. These forward-looking brain mechanisms may run deep in
the structure of mammalian and even reptilian brains. Future studies
may find that the brains of chimps and apes and lesser-brained mammals
house a forward-looking probability instinct. At the other extreme we
should not be surprised that scientists have exalted probability
ranking into their grand organizing principle of maximum probability.
Scientists follow their probability instincts as their hominid
forefathers followed theirs. Scientists just know more math.
Fuzzy Thinking - The New Science of Fuzzy Logic
Bart Kosko
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/078688021X/
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 20 Dec 2006 01:46:56 PM
"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166638895.684195.283870@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Patriot Games wrote:

"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166576468.741592.301180@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...

What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

Over-active "agency detection systems" which result in attributions to
patterned movements. Say a few twigs in a bush hint an outline of an
animal. Those who made these mistakes survived.

So, pre-humans thought they saw God in a pile of leaves and that thought
was
powerful enough to be encoded into our DNA???

The idea is that those with traits promoting "jumping to conclusions"
and "making wagers acted upon" lived and the others died, therefore we
feel good when we suppose gods.

Here's why that doesn't work (for me). "Jumping to conclusions" isn't
definitive. What does it means in terms of primitive man?
"Traits" have to have an origin. What's that origin?

A new theory of....

Sorry, can't do psychology (or any other soft sciences).
.
User: "Craig Franck"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 20 Dec 2006 05:59:42 PM
"Patriot Games" wrote

"Immortalist" wrote

Patriot Games wrote:

So, pre-humans thought they saw God in a pile of leaves and that thought
was
powerful enough to be encoded into our DNA???

The idea is that those with traits promoting "jumping to conclusions"
and "making wagers acted upon" lived and the others died, therefore we
feel good when we suppose gods.


Here's why that doesn't work (for me). "Jumping to conclusions" isn't
definitive. What does it means in terms of primitive man?

"Traits" have to have an origin. What's that origin?

Two cave men are physically identical except the first always
assumes a stranger he comes across is dangerous until he
has some reason to think otherwise, and the second always
thinks strangers are friendly until he has some reason to
think otherwise.
Who do you think is going to have more offspring?
Even today the first is approximately correct for many urban
environments.

A new theory of....


Sorry, can't do psychology (or any other soft sciences).

I don't know how you are going to find an answer to this
question then since we are talking about behavioral
characteristics.
--
Craig Franck
craig.franck@verizon.net
Cortland, NY
.
User: "Patriot Games"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 21 Dec 2006 07:33:42 AM
"Craig Franck" <craig.franck@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:O7kih.5708$Pq4.1108@trndny08...

"Patriot Games" wrote

Here's why that doesn't work (for me). "Jumping to conclusions" isn't
definitive. What does it means in terms of primitive man?
"Traits" have to have an origin. What's that origin?

Two cave men are physically identical except the first always
assumes a stranger he comes across is dangerous until he
has some reason to think otherwise, and the second always
thinks strangers are friendly until he has some reason to
think otherwise.
Who do you think is going to have more offspring?

Depends on the stranger(s).

Even today the first is approximately correct for many urban
environments.

A new theory of....

Sorry, can't do psychology (or any other soft sciences).

I don't know how you are going to find an answer to this
question then since we are talking about behavioral
characteristics.

See, (nothing personal) this is why the soft science are so unsatisfying (to
me). They go to the Daytona 500 and refuse to start at Lap 1, and instead
insist on starting at Lap 400. But every race begins on Lap 1, every time,
all the time.
Soft science begins with behavioral characteristics of a species and hides
the assumption that magic happenned thus creating that species. Hard
science begins with that rat-like creature that emerged shortly after the
Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction 65 million years ago (and mostly doesn't
attempt to connect the Permian-Triassic extinction 250 million years ago).
If behavior isn't genetic it must be learned, if its learned it must be
taught, if its taught who was the first teacher?
For me personally there is exactly one answer. Conclusive irrefutable
scientific proof that the Universe will expand forever, or not. The former
means (to me) no God, no Creator, no Designer (no Design). The latter
proves the existence of a Design which requires a Designer.
.


User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 21 Dec 2006 01:27:16 PM
Patriot Games wrote:

"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166638895.684195.283870@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Patriot Games wrote:

"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166576468.741592.301180@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...

What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

Over-active "agency detection systems" which result in attributions to
patterned movements. Say a few twigs in a bush hint an outline of an
animal. Those who made these mistakes survived.

So, pre-humans thought they saw God in a pile of leaves and that thought
was
powerful enough to be encoded into our DNA???

The idea is that those with traits promoting "jumping to conclusions"
and "making wagers acted upon" lived and the others died, therefore we
feel good when we suppose gods.


Here's why that doesn't work (for me). "Jumping to conclusions" isn't
definitive. What does it means in terms of primitive man?

Well you claim that you don't do psychology, so you really are not to
be answered here. You see jumping to conclusions is psychological and
all normal humans and mammals have done it at one time or another or
even all the time. We act out upon our theories or predictions based
upon memories. You see the particular groups of genes that direct the
assembly of those parts of the brain could create different abilities
in different individuals and this randomness could be selected for by
particular niches, accourding to basic evolutionary theory.

"Traits" have to have an origin. What's that origin?

What is: Changes in the genes that direct the assembly of the body? The
theory of mutation is much stronger than any evidence you have
presented for whatever your theory is. The strongest evidence indicates
that there is a mutation rate and errors happen every so many times a
cell divides.
In biology, mutations are changes to the base pair sequence of genetic
material (either DNA or RNA). Mutations can be caused by copying errors
in the genetic material during cell division and by exposure to
ultraviolet or ionizing radiation, chemical mutagens, or viruses, or
can occur deliberately under cellular control during processes such as
meiosis or hypermutation. In multicellular organisms, mutations can be
subdivided into germline mutations, which can be passed on to
descendants, and somatic mutations. The somatic mutations cannot be
transmitted to descendants in animals. Plants sometimes can transmit
somatic mutations to their descendants asexually or sexually (in case
when flower buds develop in somatically mutated part of plant).
Mutations create variation in the gene pool, and the less favorable (or
deleterious) mutations are removed from the gene pool by natural
selection, while more favorable (beneficial or advantageous) ones tend
to accumulate, resulting in evolutionary change. Neutral mutations are
defined as mutations whose effects do not influence the fitness of
either the species or the individuals who make up the species. These
can accumulate over time due to genetic drift. The overwhelming
majority of mutations have no significant effect, since DNA repair is
able to mend most changes before they become permanent mutations, and
many organisms have mechanisms for eliminating otherwise permanently
mutated somatic cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation
crossing over: An exchange of portions of chromatids between homologous
chromosomes. As the chromosomes begin to move apart at the end of the
first prophase of meiosis, they remain in contact at a number of points
(see chiasma). At these points the chromatids break and rejoin in such
a way that sections are exchanged. Crossing over thus alters the
pattern of genes in the chromosomes. See recombination.
recombination: The rearrangement of genes that occurs when reproductive
cells (gametes) are formed (see crossing over). Recombination results
in offspring that have a combination of characteristics different from
that of their parents. Recombination can also be induced artificially
by genetic engineering techniques
Homologous recombination is the process by which two chromosomes,
paired up during prophase 1 of meiosis, exchange some distal portion of
their DNA. Crossover occurs when two chromosomes, normally two
homologous instances of the same chromosome, break and then reconnect
but to the different end piece. If they break at the same place or
locus in the sequence of base pairs, the result is an exchange of
genes, called genetic recombination. This outcome is the normal way for
crossover to occur. If they break at slightly different loci, the
result can be a duplication of genes on one chromosome and a deletion
of these on the other. This is known as an unequal crossover. If
chromosomes break on both sides of the same centromere and rejoin to
exclude the centromere, the result can be one chromosome being lost
during cell division.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosomal_crossover

A new theory of....


Sorry, can't do psychology (or any other soft sciences).

Man's got to know his limitations, right?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=imCzx-bqrY4
.


User: ""

Title: Re: A question of purpose 20 Dec 2006 03:00:53 PM
In article <1166638895.684195.283870@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes:


Patriot Games wrote:

"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166576468.741592.301180@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...

What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

Over-active "agency detection systems" which result in attributions to
patterned movements. Say a few twigs in a bush hint an outline of an
animal. Those who made these mistakes survived.


So, pre-humans thought they saw God in a pile of leaves and that thought was
powerful enough to be encoded into our DNA???


The idea is that those with traits promoting "jumping to conclusions"
and "making wagers acted upon" lived and the others died, therefore we
feel good when we suppose gods. THose who attributed animal agency to
peculiar auditory and visual patterns, lived, others died or got their
gene frequencies much reduced by the ignorance of potential agents and
their religious like gambal.

A new theory of cognitive biases, called error management theory (EMT),
proposes that psychological mechanisms are designed to be predictably
biased when the costs of false-positive and false-negative errors were
asymmetrical over evolutionary history. This theory explains known
phenomena such as men's overperception of women's sexual intent, and it
predicts new biases in social inference such as women's underestimation
of men's commitment.

Buss comments on Error Management Theory. In an uncertain world, two
potential errors in thinking: a. partner having affair (but isn't) b.
partner isn't having affair (but is) The cost of making those two
errors are very different. Those making the first error have less cost
(from a reproductive success standpoint) than those who make the
second. Theoretically we evolved toward vigilance and are more likely
to make adaptive error. Explains why men and women sometimes have
delusions that a partner is unfaithful or might be. "It's not paranoia
if they're really out to get you!"

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/releases/2002/pr020103.cfm

Error Management Theory

Humans live in an uncertain world. We rely on our senses to pick up
information from the world, and then use our information processing
capacities to make inferences about the true state of the world. Real
threats to our survival and relationships are not always readily
apparent, given the ambiguity and uncertainty of the information.

Consider a relatively simple problem of walking through the woods and
fleetingly sensing a slithering object scurry underneath some leaves in
the path directly in front of you. There are two possible states of
reality: either there is a dangerous snake in your path or there is not
a dangerous snake in your path. Given the incomplete and uncertain
information that you have percieved, there are also two inferences you
could make. There is indeed a dangerous snake, and you act to avoid it.
Or you could conclude that there is no snake and continue walking down
the path.

There are also two possible ways that you could be wrong. You could
believe that there is a snake when in fact no snake exists. Or you
could believe that no snake when in fact a venomous rattler is lurking
right in your path. The costs of these two types of errors, however,
are vastly different. In the first case, your belief causes you to
incur the trivial metabolic cost of taking an unnecessary evasive
action. By giving a wide birth to the area that you believe harbors a
snake, you have merely gone out of your way a little, incurring a minor
delay in your walk. In the second case, however, failing to detect a
snake that is in fact lurking in your path can cost you your life. THe
two ways of being wrong carry substantially different costs.

Now imagine that this scenario not only repeats itself thousands and
thousands of times in your liftime, but billions and billions of times
over human evolutionary history. Those who made the first kind of
mistake tended to survive, whereas those who made the second kind of
mistake tended to die. As a result, modern humans have descended from a
line of ancestors whose inferences about the uncertain world erred in
the direction of believing that snakes existed more than they do. These
can be called adaptive errors.

Consider uncertainty about whether your romantic partner is having an
affair or is likely to have an affair.... Continued on page 76 The
Dangerous Passion - Why jealousy is necessary as love and sex - David M
Buss

The Dangerous Passion:
Why Jealousy Is As Necessary As Love and Sex
by David M. Buss
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684850818/

It is, rather, that evolution has
equipped us (or most of us) with certain proclivities or dispositions
to explain misfortune, gain scarce social goods, and act morally (by
which Boyer means, roughly, acting in such a way as evolutionarily to
benefit either ourselves or the tribe).


Is Boyer in touch with the folks over at the Human Genome Project? Because
they should be looking for his Belief Gene(s).


Yes, and if we find these nerve groups, we probably find the parts of
the brain which performs mediate and immidieate inference and hence
logical structures mammals have inborn.

THE PROBABILITY INSTINCT

It looks as if Kant, who thought our minds structure our perceptions,
was right. Probability was built into our minds. Our minds, the
electrochemical symphony that our narrowly evolved neural ganglia play,
impose an infrastructure on our thinking. The mind imposes a background
of time and space and causal connectedness. Scientists have never seen
a "causality" in the wild. They have seen, and they predict, only
space-time events that follow space-time events. Apples on the tree,
then apples in the air, then apples on the ground. Equations and
correlations have replaced causes, just as science has largely replaced
philosophy and religion as a theory of things. No causal germ in one
event unfolds into another event. But the mind, as eighteenth-century
philosopher David Hume observed, makes it seem so and inserts the
causal links in the event chain.

Probability seems to be part of the same mental infrastructure. It
forms part of our mental background or viewing screen along with time
and space and causality and similarity and the topological notions of
continuity and connectedness. We see probability everywhere because it
lies in our glasses.

I believe that probability or "randomness" is a psychic instinct or
Jungian archetype or mental trend that helps us organize our
perceptions and memories and most of all our expectations. Probability
gives structure to our competing causal predictions about how the
future will unfold in the next instant or day or season or millennium.

Probability ranks or weights the future alternatives. Our expectations
then blend or average these future alternatives into a single
probability-weighted average. The probability weights do not exist
outside our minds. They have no physical reality but have a powerful
psychological reality rooted in our neural mi-crostructure. Hume also
thought that we make up probability as we go and use it to fill in gaps
in our mind schemes or world views: "Though there be no such thing as
chance in the world, our ignorance of the real cause of any event has
the same influence on the understanding and begets a like species of
belief."

This probability instinct seems to cut across cultures and may cut
across species. Besides the probability-laden psychology of scientists
and most nonscientists, the widespread gambling and games of chance in
primitive and modern cultures suggest that probability "reasoning" may
be a cultural constant like hero worship or fertility rituals or incest
and adultery taboos. A cultural constant suggests a biological
substrate, and that requires an evolutionary history.

Ranking future alternatives can help pass on genes. Those who could so
rank may have eaten those who could not. It allows us to bet before we
act and improve the outcome of acting. That forward-looking ability has
supreme survival value in biological evolution, the genetic variation
and selection in the last few million years that has finely sculpted
our brains and minds, and in the prior evolution that sculpted the
brains and minds of our mammalian ancestors in the last 220 million
years. Natural selection filters out organisms as they cross the fuzzy
line from the present to the future. Natural selection favors brain
mechanisms that help an organism make its next move in a changing and
dangerous world. These forward-looking brain mechanisms may run deep in
the structure of mammalian and even reptilian brains. Future studies
may find that the brains of chimps and apes and lesser-brained mammals
house a forward-looking probability instinct. At the other extreme we
should not be surprised that scientists have exalted probability
ranking into their grand organizing principle of maximum probability.
Scientists follow their probability instincts as their hominid
forefathers followed theirs. Scientists just know more math.

Fuzzy Thinking - The New Science of Fuzzy Logic
Bart Kosko
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/078688021X/

Thanks for posting it, that's good stuff.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.



User: "Milan"

Title: Re: A question of purpose 20 Dec 2006 01:54:55 PM
"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166576468.741592.301180@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
Patriot Games wrote:

"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166551284.402364.170910@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...

But what if the idea of God or gods are instinctual and partially
inborn and developed when humans interact with the environment
determining their particular varient of human nature? What if also the
desire to speak of said instinct is also an instinct? In that case do
we ignore these drives like a young man can ignore a buxom blonde?


What would have been the evolutionary precursor for that instinctual
behavior?

Over-active "agency detection systems" which result in attributions to
patterned movements. Say a few twigs in a bush hint an outline of an
animal. Those who made these mistakes survived.
Religion Explained: The Human Instincts That Fashion Gods, Spirits and
Ancestors by Pascal Boyer
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi­dos/ASIN/0465006965/
....Why are we humans predisposed to have only these kinds of religious
concepts? Boyer's answer, in brief, is that our brains have been
"designed by evolution" to employ particular cognitive systems that
help us to make sense of "particular aspects of objects around us and
produce specific kinds of inferences about them." There are, for
instance, brain-systems in this sense that deal with inanimate
objects, others that deal with human persons, and yet others that deal
with supernatural agents. Just as our brains have become by evolution
such that they inevitably (and mostly unconsciously) deploy the complex
inferential systems that permit us to survive and get around in a world
of inanimate objects, so they also have become such that we find ideas
about full-access strategic agents to be plausible because these
ideas generate for us rich inferences about how to behave and what
choices to make, and they do so with particular richness in a social
context in which we can reasonably assume that everyone else shares
such ideas.
Boyer thus reverses many traditional attempts to explain religion away.
It is not that we invent the gods because by so doing we can meet needs
otherwise difficult to satisfy, or because they permit us to explain
things otherwise hard to explain, or because they give us the illusion
of comfort in a harsh and comfortless world, or because they give us
persuasive reasons to act morally. It is, rather, that evolution has
equipped us (or most of us) with certain proclivities or dispositions
to explain misfortune, gain scarce social goods, and act morally (by
which Boyer means, roughly, acting in such a way as evolutionarily to
benefit either ourselves or the tribe). Moreover, these proclivities
dispose us to accept and act upon the idea that there are gods-or, if
you prefer, full-acces