| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"harmony" |
| Date: |
11 Jul 2004 05:29:27 PM |
| Object: |
affordable power for homes |
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15 mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than $30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck, that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct payback
not more than 5 years.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 09:37:20 AM |
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"harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<10f3fjlgqlii2c5@corp.supernews.com>...
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15 mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than $30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck, that's
not a good deal.
I'm just sort of wondering about your numbers.
$60,000 over twenty years, without even considering interest charges,
maintenance, etc., is $125/mo. Is your electricity bill really so high?
I guess it is in some areas, for people with fairly high consumption.
In addition, you would need to consider standby or storage to make up
for those days when there was not enough wind. Plus, you'd need to deal
with situations where there was too much wind and you needed to "feather"
the turbine or risk damaging it. (Though in many regions such weather
is quite rare, it happens in most places from time to time.) Plus, you
need to consider those two or three day periods when you are "waiting
for a part" or some such thing. So you would need either some backup
generator (or keep your connection to the grid) or monster big
batteries of some kind. This would all add to the capital cost, or
add to the montly costs, and extend the payback time.
Utility experience with large windmills, other than in special
places like mountain passes where wind is reliably in some specific
range of speed, are that they get something like 20 to 30 percent
capacity factor. Part of that is due to the fact they are only
disptached "on" when there is high demand, but part is also due
to the fickle nature of wind. So, you'd need to figure out what
your average use was, and be able to have storage or backup supply
for that for at least several days. Plus generation capacity big
enough to fill up the storage while you were still using power.
Depending on your usage, you might need more than two windmills.
Windmills only really make sense in places where the grid is hard
to access, or very expensive for some unusual reason. For example,
in Ontario, people with very remote cottages may find it cheaper
to put up a windmill. It might cost them far more to put a power
line all the way through the woods to their shack. Plus it would
spoil the view in the woods to have this power line there. I see
such windmills occasionally when I'm hiking the Bruce Trail.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct payback
not more than 5 years.
For nearly anything you can think of, you run into the same kind of
problems as with wind.
- Such schemes are nearly always only available to "hobby" level users.
This makes the equipment either very expensive or requires a lot of
mechanical knowledge and work.
- Such things nearly always require backup by either storage or the grid.
That tends to increase the price dramatically.
- People tend to forget the cost of maintenance. They tend to forget the
time and effort required. For some installations there may be issues
with annoying the neighbours, zoning laws, noise or odor (methane
cookers for example).
- Reliability of a rooftop or basement appliance requires you to do a
lot of work that you may be neither equipped nor trained for. Do you
feature yourself on a ladder making adjustments to a windmill?
Do you feature your neighbour (you know the one, the guy with the
kids and the dogs and the ratty old truck) with a huge pressure
tank of methane in his basement?
- Some things don't scale well. They may work just fine for you when
you need a temporary thing like a small construction project. In such
cases you can rent one of those portable gas power generators for a
week or two and the cost is acceptable. But trying to run your house
on such would be silly.
Socks
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| User: "harmony" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 12:54:12 PM |
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<puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c7976c46.0407130637.560f1638@posting.google.com...
"harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<10f3fjlgqlii2c5@corp.supernews.com>...
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for
my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15
mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than
$30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck,
that's
not a good deal.
I'm just sort of wondering about your numbers.
$60,000 over twenty years, without even considering interest charges,
maintenance, etc., is $125/mo.
for budgetary purpose, a 20yr note plus local property taxes would be
$300.00 per month.
(i think i have got this worked out reasonably accurately)
Is your electricity bill really so high?
quite higher in june, july, and aug. $350plus. actually, people are here
often express their unhappiness over high electricity bills despite
de-regulation.
I guess it is in some areas, for people with fairly high consumption.
In addition, you would need to consider standby or storage to make up
for those days when there was not enough wind. Plus, you'd need to deal
with situations where there was too much wind and you needed to "feather"
the turbine or risk damaging it. (Though in many regions such weather
is quite rare, it happens in most places from time to time.)
i didn't know very high winds are a problem; i thought higher the better.
thanks for the advice. although we got hit directly with hurricane last
year, it is rare. we do get winds upto 50 mph when hurricane lands 100 miles
or so away.
Plus, you
need to consider those two or three day periods when you are "waiting
for a part" or some such thing. So you would need either some backup
generator (or keep your connection to the grid) or monster big
batteries of some kind. This would all add to the capital cost, or
add to the montly costs, and extend the payback time.
we do have the grid; so, this part is not a terrible concern.
Utility experience with large windmills, other than in special
places like mountain passes where wind is reliably in some specific
range of speed, are that they get something like 20 to 30 percent
capacity factor. Part of that is due to the fact they are only
disptached "on" when there is high demand, but part is also due
to the fickle nature of wind. So, you'd need to figure out what
your average use was, and be able to have storage or backup supply
for that for at least several days. Plus generation capacity big
enough to fill up the storage while you were still using power.
Depending on your usage, you might need more than two windmills.
thanks. we do not always have winds blowing in the same direction. is that a
problem?
winds are some times from north and other times from south/ south-east.
your point on capacity factor is a very good one. i wonder what a 10kw mill
would generate at 10mph wind?
manufacturers, however, seem to assert that an average wind of 10mph over a
year is sufficient justification to install a wind mill. i think this claim
is dubious.
Windmills only really make sense in places where the grid is hard
to access, or very expensive for some unusual reason. For example,
in Ontario, people with very remote cottages may find it cheaper
to put up a windmill. It might cost them far more to put a power
line all the way through the woods to their shack. Plus it would
spoil the view in the woods to have this power line there. I see
such windmills occasionally when I'm hiking the Bruce Trail.
well, it is beyond me to figure why a windmill should cost 30 grand. i am
sure the chinese can do it for 2 grand if they try. and then it will start
to kick in. Tom Friedman of NYTimes spent a good deal of time in china and
came back just last week. his strongly recommends that the amrican and
chinese scientists put their heads together to figure solutions to energy
problem. (according to him, power shortages are a daily news headlines in
china)
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct
payback
not more than 5 years.
For nearly anything you can think of, you run into the same kind of
problems as with wind.
- Such schemes are nearly always only available to "hobby" level users.
the recent hike in gas price most likely will not go away. i already told
you about the chinese power shortages, and the chinese and the indians are
aggressively looking for more energy as their economies exapand. i have a
feeling bush administration is not too serious about energy because they are
preoccupied with iraq, and now elections. clinton was smart enough to talk
about energy technology breakthr' as new front for the next wave of
economy, but many years have passed since and there is nothing on the
horizon.
This makes the equipment either very expensive or requires a lot of
mechanical knowledge and work.
- Such things nearly always require backup by either storage or the grid.
That tends to increase the price dramatically.
- People tend to forget the cost of maintenance. They tend to forget the
time and effort required. For some installations there may be issues
with annoying the neighbours, zoning laws, noise or odor (methane
cookers for example).
- Reliability of a rooftop or basement appliance requires you to do a
lot of work that you may be neither equipped nor trained for. Do you
feature yourself on a ladder making adjustments to a windmill?
Do you feature your neighbour (you know the one, the guy with the
kids and the dogs and the ratty old truck) with a huge pressure
tank of methane in his basement?
- Some things don't scale well. They may work just fine for you when
you need a temporary thing like a small construction project. In such
cases you can rent one of those portable gas power generators for a
week or two and the cost is acceptable. But trying to run your house
on such would be silly.
Socks
thank you Socks for a great post. i think if front end cost can be scaled
down using chinese help, the rest will fall in place, and it would be no
different than maintaining a hot water heater. my view.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 01:19:14 PM |
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In sci.physics harmony <aka@hotmail.com> wrote:
well, it is beyond me to figure why a windmill should cost 30 grand. i am
sure the chinese can do it for 2 grand if they try. and then it will start
to kick in. Tom Friedman of NYTimes spent a good deal of time in china and
came back just last week. his strongly recommends that the amrican and
chinese scientists put their heads together to figure solutions to energy
problem. (according to him, power shortages are a daily news headlines in
china)
$30 grand isn't all that much when you consider everything that goes into
it, plus the fact that they are not mass produced.
For a reality check, a short, non-guyed antenna tower (guaranteed to not
fall down when used per spec) that supports a very small wind load and not
a lot of weight costs a bit under 2 grand and they are mass produced.
In all this did you consider things like building permits (if you could
even get one for such a project in a residential area), engineering and
construction costs for a base that guarantees the thing won't blow over
and wipe out the neighbors during the first stiff wind (a non-trivial
problem) and the court costs for all the eyesore and noise nuisance
law suits your neighbors are going to file?
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 10:20:50 PM |
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I got new your you jimp pimp .
I might be the only one using a sliding vane hydroelectric and the only
one to run a pipe down a river .
2500 hp is million bucks a year.
a turbine cannot do the job.
2500 hp is a back yard project anyone can build for 50 grand.
20 years $ 20,000,000 and all you invested is 50 grand !
Id run a coil pipe 12 inch accross a county for $5000 a mile for 10
miles for 200 foot fall.
$ 100,000 for pipe and ac 500 hp .
$ 175,000 a year fo 20 years is a good investment for 100 grand.
If a mountain has a creek 2 feet deap 8 feet wide you can drop a 36
inch pipe till you get
1000 feet of fall and make $ 3 million a year
on a $ 800,000 mountain of 4000 acres.
I run hydroelectric because I run diesel electrics on ships. I use
old ship parts cheep .
Go grab a 5000 hp AC for 10 grand and I bet it runs 50 years.
run a 24 inch up 600 feet or a 32 up 300.
I might be your bank if you find a good spot with customers within 23
miles even if you moves to origon or washington or penn, or nyny or
anywhere.
Ill make shure you make a million a year at least by checking and
letting you use my hydrorotor.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 11:02:32 PM |
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tj Frazir <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote:
another bunch of babble.
Filed your enviromental impact report, got your licenses?
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "Gregory L. Hansen" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
11 Jul 2004 08:08:45 PM |
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In article <10f3fjlgqlii2c5@corp.supernews.com>,
harmony <aka@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15 mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than $30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck, that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct payback
not more than 5 years.
I knew a guy that had an airplane prop on an automotive alternator,
charging a car battery. That's not going to get you 10 kW, though.
--
"Then they placed the ark of the Lord on the cart; along with the box
containing the golden mice and the images of the hemorrhoids."
-- 1 Samuel 6:11
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 02:16:33 PM |
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Better run a pipe up a creek where you can get
100 or 200 feet in a mile or two. 1000 feet in a few miles is beter.
Lay the pipe in the creek and put a hydro at the low end .
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| User: "John Morriss" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 12:48:55 PM |
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(tj Frazir) wrote in message news:<17705-40F2E391-391@storefull-3218.bay.webtv.net>...
Better run a pipe up a creek where you can get
100 or 200 feet in a mile or two. 1000 feet in a few miles is beter.
Lay the pipe in the creek and put a hydro at the low end .
Uhh... Where do you find these creeks with a drop of 100 or 200 feet
in a few miles? The only one around here that I know of is the
Niagara River...And it's pretty well developed for hydro already...
And as for "1000 feet is beter": Is there ANY hydro-electric plant in
the world working on a 1000 foot drop?
The St Lawrence only drops 246 feet in the <<hundreds>> of miles from
Lake Ontario to the Atlantic...
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 09:51:57 PM |
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I can use a much smaller pipe the higher it gets.
Niagra hu ..Ok ,you nead a longer pipe and run from the lake threw
welland . 25 miles of 30 inch.
A 200 foot fall in a few miles is anywhere a creek runs down a hill.
A 12 inch pipe with 200 feet fall is some real cranking . No windmill
could compeat with it buck for buck.
a 30 inch pipe with a 10 foot fall in 2 miles will power a small
town.
A 2000 hp ac for $ 20,000 new.
It will run for 50 years and make $ 2000 bucks a day . A plastic 30 inch
2 miles for 50 grand.
I run a few over 2000 feet drop in 10 mile with a 24 inch pipe and it
rocks big time.
It will explode a garden hose and I use steel after 400 feet.
I use a sliding vane wheel 100 foot tall and trap the water in the
wheel and the first vane has around 300 psi direct against a 24 x 24
inch vane on a wheel with 50 radeus.
175000 pounds at 50 feet PLUS the mass of the water 9000 pounds .
The AC rides the rim of the wheel with a tire mounted on its shaft.
Your tap watermight be gravity feed fromthe water tower to you from
150 feet and 10 miles away .
You can lay a pipe in a river and contain it for miles and have a
massive power plant without the dam.
SOOOOO much money can be made hydrop pipe lines has the old nukes
shaking at the knees.
I got a mile of black hose 12 inch for 8 grand.
I ran 3 miles up a creek to 800 feet.
That one is real near you.
You might find one 20 miles away ..do it make money .
Finding a million bucks a year on each pipe installed means if you
install 36 inch pipes and evry time you build a hydro it makes you a
million bucks a year and I can install 10 a year.
I bet you can find a river or creek somewhere you can make money with.
A buck a HP per day is the rule.
I charge 50 cents a hp day.
Honda in ohio uses my electric from mad river mountain , a 30 inch 1000
feet 15 miles from honda.
Maine I use a 60 inch 10 miles long on my own land and my 4 mile lake
and run my mil and a town.
In alaska a 4000 foot drop in 5 miles cranks a mill and a small town
and the port.
In california Im building 5 hydro plants .
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 10:31:32 PM |
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tj Frazir <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote:
I can use a much smaller pipe the higher it gets.
The pipe you're using now seems to have you high enough.
<babbling snipped>
In california Im building 5 hydro plants .
Funny, the California ISO doesn't seem to know about it. You did apply
for all the licenses, didn't you?
Hmmm, seems the California Department of Water Resources doesn't know
about you either.
Isn't that strange...
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 01:03:17 PM |
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John Morriss <jmorriss@idirect.com> wrote:
GravityPhysics@webtv.net (tj Frazir) wrote in message news:<17705-40F2E391-391@storefull-3218.bay.webtv.net>...
Better run a pipe up a creek where you can get
100 or 200 feet in a mile or two. 1000 feet in a few miles is beter.
Lay the pipe in the creek and put a hydro at the low end .
Uhh... Where do you find these creeks with a drop of 100 or 200 feet
in a few miles? The only one around here that I know of is the
Niagara River...And it's pretty well developed for hydro already...
And as for "1000 feet is beter": Is there ANY hydro-electric plant in
the world working on a 1000 foot drop?
The St Lawrence only drops 246 feet in the <<hundreds>> of miles from
Lake Ontario to the Atlantic...
Now now, one must not let the real world intrude on tj's delusions.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 02:34:44 PM |
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tj Frazir <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote:
Better run a pipe up a creek where you can get
100 or 200 feet in a mile or two. 1000 feet in a few miles is beter.
Lay the pipe in the creek and put a hydro at the low end .
What a wonderful idea since everyone knows all suburban houses have a
mile or two of creek behind them, except for the ones with the 2000
foot waterfalls.
Idiot.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "MorituriMax" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 11:53:36 PM |
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wrote:
tj Frazir <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote:
Better run a pipe up a creek where you can get
100 or 200 feet in a mile or two. 1000 feet in a few miles is beter.
Lay the pipe in the creek and put a hydro at the low end .
What a wonderful idea since everyone knows all suburban houses have a
mile or two of creek behind them, except for the ones with the 2000
foot waterfalls.
Idiot.
Yeah, I'm going to move my SUV to Niagra, run a long extension cord from there
to my house.
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| User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
11 Jul 2004 06:55:35 PM |
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In article <10f3fjlgqlii2c5@corp.supernews.com>,
"harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> posted:
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15 mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than $30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck, that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct payback
not more than 5 years.
Solar energy panels on rooftops are a
common sight here in Hawaii. Solar
energy is used to heat water, power
civil defense sirens and emergency
phones along the roadways.
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
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| User: "harmony" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 11:44:53 AM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <usenet@mantra.com> wrote in message
news:5j12jc9cqo22k7l59@b27rs461kgl9m84ed11W...
In article <10f3fjlgqlii2c5@corp.supernews.com>,
"harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> posted:
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for
my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15
mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than
$30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck,
that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct
payback
not more than 5 years.
Solar energy panels on rooftops are a
common sight here in Hawaii. Solar
energy is used to heat water, power
civil defense sirens and emergency
phones along the roadways.
may be solar power economics in hawaii is more favorable than mainland.
i wonder if you can shed light on the economics of it in hawaii.
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
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| User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 02:41:00 PM |
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In article <10f5fpg98pjjfb7@corp.supernews.com>,
"harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> posted:
Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:
In article <10f3fjlgqlii2c5@corp.supernews.com>,
"harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> posted:
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for
my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15
mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than
$30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck,
that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct
payback
not more than 5 years.
Solar energy panels on rooftops are a
common sight here in Hawaii. Solar
energy is used to heat water, power
civil defense sirens and emergency
phones along the roadways. - Jai Maharaj
may be solar power economics in hawaii is more favorable than mainland.
i wonder if you can shed light on the economics of it in hawaii.
Please begin your research here:
Solar Energy:
http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/sol_t_hi.html
Wind Energy:
http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/wind_hi.html
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
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| User: "Ian Stirling" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
11 Jul 2004 07:13:02 PM |
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In sci.physics harmony <aka@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15 mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than $30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck, that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct payback
not more than 5 years.
If you could do it, why couldn't the electricity company?
And if they could, wouldn't they be doing it in a big way if they could
see returns like that?
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| User: "Julian Streicher" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 02:33:48 PM |
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If you could do it, why couldn't the electricity company?
And if they could, wouldn't they be doing it in a big way if they could
see returns like that?
Maybe because it is too unreliable for mass consumption
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
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| User: "Richard Bell" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
14 Jul 2004 12:57:48 PM |
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In article <40f1d78d$0$538$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
In sci.physics harmony <aka@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15 mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than $30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck, that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct payback
not more than 5 years.
If you could do it, why couldn't the electricity company?
And if they could, wouldn't they be doing it in a big way if they could
see returns like that?
If he is ***already*** connected to the grid, it is unlikely that he will
ever save any money by producing his own electricity.
If he does ***not*** have a grid connection, and the utility does not already
run a powerline past his house, he will save pots of money generating his
own power, just by not paying the connection fee (building the powerline
to his lot).
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
11 Jul 2004 07:16:35 PM |
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In sci.physics harmony <aka@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15 mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than $30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck, that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct payback
not more than 5 years.
About a year or so ago I went through the exercise. At the time the state
was giving out a 50% tax credit for various "renewable" systems.
The best payback time I could come up with was just under 6 years by which
time just about any system is due for expensive maintenance.
The cheapest system on a $/Kw basis was a natural gas fueled generator,
but I don't have a place to put a decent sized one and the neighbors
would surely raise hell over the noise.
I'm holding out for the Mr. Fusion that runs on banana peels and coffee
grounds.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "harmony" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 11:40:59 AM |
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<jimp@specsol-spam-sux.com> wrote in message
news:ccsl93$hpg$1@mail.specsol.com...
In sci.physics harmony <aka@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am looking to take mother nature's help and generate my own power for
my
own house to save on utility bills. it seems a windmill would be a good
idea; may be two 10kw windmills might do the trick. (we have average 15
mph
winds in summer). it seems you can't buy a 10kw windmill at less than
$30
grand a pop (installed cost); the payback would be 20 years!!; heck,
that's
not a good deal.
solar power too does not look very attractive.
are there smart practical ideas out there? can the americans get cheap
imports from the hindus or the chinese on this? i would like 100 pct
payback
not more than 5 years.
About a year or so ago I went through the exercise. At the time the state
was giving out a 50% tax credit for various "renewable" systems.
The best payback time I could come up with was just under 6 years by which
time just about any system is due for expensive maintenance.
The cheapest system on a $/Kw basis was a natural gas fueled generator,
but I don't have a place to put a decent sized one and the neighbors
would surely raise hell over the noise.
I'm holding out for the Mr. Fusion that runs on banana peels and coffee
grounds.
we get our water at 50lb pressure, and is relatively abundant and cheaper. i
wonder if you can buy a small water turbine controlled generator during
summer days. forecast is for upper 90s this whole week.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "Scott A Crosby" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 01:35:54 PM |
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On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:40:59 -0500, "harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> writes:
we get our water at 50lb pressure, and is relatively abundant and cheaper. i
wonder if you can buy a small water turbine controlled generator during
summer days. forecast is for upper 90s this whole week.
Um, unless your water system is entirely gravity-fed, the water
company has to pay the energy for the pumps to raise it to that
pressure.
Also, the amount of energy released would be extremely small. Could
someone who knows show how I should calculate it?
Scott
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| User: "daestrom" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
12 Jul 2004 04:41:28 PM |
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"Scott A Crosby" <scrosby@cs.rice.edu> wrote in message
news:oydacy5qdit.fsf@bert.cs.rice.edu...
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:40:59 -0500, "harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> writes:
we get our water at 50lb pressure, and is relatively abundant and
cheaper. i
wonder if you can buy a small water turbine controlled generator during
summer days. forecast is for upper 90s this whole week.
Um, unless your water system is entirely gravity-fed, the water
company has to pay the energy for the pumps to raise it to that
pressure.
Also, the amount of energy released would be extremely small. Could
someone who knows show how I should calculate it?
The 'simple' formula is...
'Pressure drop available in psi' * 'Flow rate in gpm' * 'expected
efficiency of turbine' * 0.437 = 'output in watts'
50 psi * 10 gpm * 0.80 * .437 = ~175 watts
To get a kWh of energy out of this setup, it would need to operate 1000
watt-hours/175 watts => 5.7 hours. That would be 3433 gallons of water. If
your water bill is flat-rate, maybe nobody would notice? If your water bill
is based on metered usage, I doubt that 1 kWh of electricity is worth the
cost of 3433 gallons with enough left over to payback the cost of this
setup. Not to mention sewage fees, or if the local authority gets p---ed
off about the setup.
One easy way to derive this is to calculate the flow rate in mass/time,
convert the pressure available to the equivalent 'head' and then calculate
the amount of power to raise the mass up against gravity to that height in
the alotted time.
Or convert the pressure to static head and calculate the PE in a mass of
water that high. Subtract the PE of the water after it leaves the turbine.
Then multiply by the mass flow rate to get the energy/unit-time for power.
These would be the theoretical energy available in the water. Must then
consider turbine efficiency. Well designed turbines can get pretty good
efficiency (mid 80's to 90's). But home-made ones, or miss-applied ones
from a different head/flow application could do as poorly as 20%.
daestrom
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| User: "harmony" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 03:18:44 PM |
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"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:cADIc.61733$bp1.58129@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Scott A Crosby" <scrosby@cs.rice.edu> wrote in message
news:oydacy5qdit.fsf@bert.cs.rice.edu...
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:40:59 -0500, "harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> writes:
we get our water at 50lb pressure, and is relatively abundant and
cheaper. i
wonder if you can buy a small water turbine controlled generator
during
summer days. forecast is for upper 90s this whole week.
Um, unless your water system is entirely gravity-fed, the water
company has to pay the energy for the pumps to raise it to that
pressure.
Also, the amount of energy released would be extremely small. Could
someone who knows show how I should calculate it?
The 'simple' formula is...
'Pressure drop available in psi' * 'Flow rate in gpm' * 'expected
efficiency of turbine' * 0.437 = 'output in watts'
50 psi * 10 gpm * 0.80 * .437 = ~175 watts
To get a kWh of energy out of this setup, it would need to operate 1000
watt-hours/175 watts => 5.7 hours. That would be 3433 gallons of water.
If
your water bill is flat-rate, maybe nobody would notice? If your water
bill
is based on metered usage, I doubt that 1 kWh of electricity is worth the
cost of 3433 gallons with enough left over to payback the cost of this
setup. Not to mention sewage fees, or if the local authority gets p---ed
off about the setup.
thanks, daestrom. may be we can take pressure drop half as much, and use the
remainig half on the sprinkler system for watering the large tract of yard -
give some to neigbor's yard too!! of course, i might have to change the
sprinkler pvc piping size from current 3/4" to perhaps 2", i guess. I
thought water turbine would work quietly, and won't be a nuisance.
One easy way to derive this is to calculate the flow rate in mass/time,
convert the pressure available to the equivalent 'head' and then calculate
the amount of power to raise the mass up against gravity to that height in
the alotted time.
Or convert the pressure to static head and calculate the PE in a mass of
water that high. Subtract the PE of the water after it leaves the
turbine.
Then multiply by the mass flow rate to get the energy/unit-time for power.
These would be the theoretical energy available in the water. Must then
consider turbine efficiency. Well designed turbines can get pretty good
efficiency (mid 80's to 90's). But home-made ones, or miss-applied ones
from a different head/flow application could do as poorly as 20%.
daestrom
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| User: "daestrom" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
14 Jul 2004 07:01:40 PM |
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"harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10f8gme6ss17fd2@corp.supernews.com...
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:cADIc.61733$bp1.58129@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Scott A Crosby" <scrosby@cs.rice.edu> wrote in message
news:oydacy5qdit.fsf@bert.cs.rice.edu...
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:40:59 -0500, "harmony" <aka@hotmail.com>
writes:
we get our water at 50lb pressure, and is relatively abundant and
cheaper. i
wonder if you can buy a small water turbine controlled generator
during
summer days. forecast is for upper 90s this whole week.
Um, unless your water system is entirely gravity-fed, the water
company has to pay the energy for the pumps to raise it to that
pressure.
Also, the amount of energy released would be extremely small. Could
someone who knows show how I should calculate it?
The 'simple' formula is...
'Pressure drop available in psi' * 'Flow rate in gpm' * 'expected
efficiency of turbine' * 0.437 = 'output in watts'
50 psi * 10 gpm * 0.80 * .437 = ~175 watts
To get a kWh of energy out of this setup, it would need to operate 1000
watt-hours/175 watts => 5.7 hours. That would be 3433 gallons of water.
If
your water bill is flat-rate, maybe nobody would notice? If your water
bill
is based on metered usage, I doubt that 1 kWh of electricity is worth
the
cost of 3433 gallons with enough left over to payback the cost of this
setup. Not to mention sewage fees, or if the local authority gets
p---ed
off about the setup.
thanks, daestrom. may be we can take pressure drop half as much, and use
the
remainig half on the sprinkler system for watering the large tract of
yard -
give some to neigbor's yard too!! of course, i might have to change the
sprinkler pvc piping size from current 3/4" to perhaps 2", i guess. I
thought water turbine would work quietly, and won't be a nuisance.
Well, just such a turbine is used in many sprinklers. The kind that
oscillate back and forth slowly. Or in some of the automatic timers that
you just set and forget. Tiny turbine drives the 'clock' mechanism. But
look at the amount of power available, and you'll see that it isn't much
more than what it takes to rotate the sprinkler, or wind the 'clock'.
WRT changing pipe sizes, it's a mixed bag. Double the diameter of a pipe
run and the pressure drop for a given flow goes down to 1/16 of what it was
before. Sounds great. But most of the pressure losses are probably not in
the piping itself unless you have a particularly long run. Fittings,
elbows, valves account for a lot more. Just one globe valve can cause the
same pressure drop as a straight pipe that is 300 'pipe-diameters' long.
IIRC, a typical 90 degree elbow is equivalent to straight pipe that is 34
'pipe diameters'.
So mind the twists and turns!!!
A great reference for practical piping/flow calculations is 'Crane Technical
Paper No. 410'. Not a bad price and includes some of the theory as well as
real-world tables/charts for calculating such things.
daestrom
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
14 Jul 2004 08:00:04 PM |
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I could list 100 places that sell hydro stuff and din't look at this one
Hydroelectric Energy
Address:http://www.suntara.com/hydroenergy.html Changed:12:12 PM on
Friday, November 26, 1999
I use a rotor instead of a turbine .
You can by hose made for hydro setups .
JIMP PIMP ,,yes Ferc knows and inspected my town pants.
Idiot
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
14 Jul 2004 09:05:13 PM |
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tj Frazir <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote:
<snip babble>
JIMP PIMP ,,yes Ferc knows and inspected my town pants.
Idiot
FERC doesn't inspect or liscense power plants (or pants either), especially
in California, the California ISO does.
BUSTED!
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
15 Jul 2004 08:40:53 AM |
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How many privet power pants did iso license ?
None ! Privet power plants get a permit.
Unless you own the entire grid its on and the land its on then they
don't even nead a permit.
How many privet hydroelectrics with no lisence and no permit operate in
the usa ?
50,000 hydroelectrics under 100 hp.
1,000 over 1000 hp.
Dumbass
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
15 Jul 2004 09:14:11 AM |
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tj Frazir <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote:
How many privet power pants did iso license ?
All of them.
BUSTED!
None ! Privet power plants get a permit.
Unless you own the entire grid its on and the land its on then they
don't even nead a permit.
Building permit, environmental impact study, etc.
BUSTED!
How many privet hydroelectrics with no lisence and no permit operate in
the usa ?
50,000 hydroelectrics under 100 hp.
1,000 over 1000 hp.
Dumbass
Putting anything in a river, stream or creek in California is regulated.
BUSTED!
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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| User: "Scott A Crosby" |
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| Title: Re: affordable power for homes |
13 Jul 2004 01:59:20 AM |
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On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:41:28 GMT, "daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> writes:
One easy way to derive this is to calculate the flow rate in mass/time,
convert the pressure available to the equivalent 'head' and then calculate
the amount of power to raise the mass up against gravity to that height in
the alotted time.
Ah, I should have thought of this. My attempt was barking up the fluid
dynamics tree.
Thanks.
Scott
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