| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"James Harris" |
| Date: |
24 Jan 2004 10:00:56 AM |
| Object: |
Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
For about two years now I've been trying to explain an algebraic
method for analyzing polynomials that relies on non-polynomial
factors. My research is a natural extension in the polynomial domain
of the idea of irrationality in the integer domain. Basically, I look
at the equivalent of irrational factors with polynomials.
Recently Rick Decker, a professor at Hamilton College, apparently
trying to refute my research came up with a quadratic example, which I
like because it's a quadratic, and easier to manipulate than the
cubics I've used before.
If you wish to see his original post here are some headers which also
show that he is indeed at Hamilton College:
Message-ID: <3FF47C4C.6080109@hamilton.edu>
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 15:00:12 -0500
From: Rick Decker <rdecker@hamilton.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: Mathematical consistency, courage
Decker put forward the quadratic
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5a_2(x) + 7) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
where his a's are roots of
a^2 - (x - 1)a + 7(x^2 + x).
The factors (5a_1(x) + 7) and (5a_2(x) + 7) are examples of
non-polynomial factors.
Notice that despite not being polynomials they are algebraic integers
if x is an algebraic integer because a_1(x) and a_2(x) are the two
roots of
a^2 - (x - 1)a + 7(x^2 + x).
To my knowledge mathematicians have never done extensive research with
non-polynomial factors of polynomials, but instead most work in the
area has to do with finding roots to polynomials, or determining if
polynomials with rational coefficients are reducible over rationals.
The extension into the realm of non-polynomial factors has revealed a
problem with a previous understanding of mathematicians in the area of
the ring of algebraic integers. It's easy to prove the problem.
Consider that algebraically, factorizations multiply out in a certain
way demonstrated by
(a+b)(c+d) = ac + ad + bc + bd
and that's just a FACT which is not open to debate.
Looking at
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5a_2(x) + 7) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
it is possible then to multiply out the factors on the left to obtain
25 a_1(x) a_2(x) + 35 a_1(x) + 35 a_2(x) + 49 = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2).
Now subtracting 14 from both sides gives
25 a_1(x) a_2(x) + 35 a_1(x) + 35 a_2(x) + 35 = 7(25x^2 + 30x)
which reveals an imbalance as 35 is the constant left on the left,
while 0 is what's on the right.
A simple linear transformation helps balance the factorization, as
using
a_2(x) = b_2(x) - 1, and making the substitution gives
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2).
Now multiplying out I get
25 a_1(x) b_2(x) + 10 a_1(x) + 35 b_2(x) + 14 = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
and subtracting 14 from both sides gives
25 a_1(x) b_2(x) + 10 a_1(x) + 35 b_2(x) = 7(25x^2 + 30x)
so as expected the constants 7 and 2 on the left are factors of 7(2)
on the right.
The mathematics is trivially obvious in that regard, but from that
simple result, obvious from basic arithmetic, I have a truly profound
conclusion.
That is, given that with
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
the 7 and 2 on the left are factors of 7(2) on the right, if I divide
that constant factor 7, visible as a factor of
7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
from both sides then to remain in the ring of algebraic integers,
there's only one way logically to do it:
(5a_1(x)/7 + 1)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 25x^2 + 30x + 2
as any other way, like factoring 7 into two other non-unit factors
will require that you have numbers not available in the ring of
algebraic integers.
For instance, assume there exists some value of x within the ring of
algebraic integers where the factors (5a_1(x) + 7) and (5b_2(x) + 2)
each have sqrt(7) as a factor (in fact, x=1 will work), then you'd
have
(5a_1(x)/sqrt(7) + sqrt(7))(5b_2(x)/sqrt(7) + 2/sqrt(7)) =
25x^2 + 30x + 2
which reveals the two factors of 2 on the right, as being sqrt(7) and
2/sqrt(7) on the left.
Remember, algebra gives a rigid format for multiplying out, as I
pointed out before with
(a+b)(c+d) = ac + ad + bc + bd
so there shouldn't be debate here from people who accept algebra.
Notice that works in the field of algebraic numbers, but not in the
ring of algebraic integers.
But it turns out that it's possible to prove that even with the
factorization
(5a_1(x)/7 + 1)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 25x^2 + 30x + 2
that (5a_1(x)/7 + 1) is not in general an algebraic integer.
What makes this result so surprising is that the necessary conclusion
is that you cannot operate completely in the ring of algebraic
integers if you divide both sides of
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
by 7, as then *necessarily* from basic algebra, you're forced out of
the ring as you then must have factors of 2 that are outside the ring
of algebraic integers, as I demonstrated with sqrt(7) as *necessarily*
then the factors of 2 are sqrt(7) and 2/sqrt(7) which are not in the
ring of algebraic integers.
Extensions of mathematical knowledge tend to produce surprising
results, and some people can't handle a world where areas once thought
settled are revealed to contain new results. But my hope is that some
of you are actually mathematical researchers versus seeing yourselves
as mere caretakers of dogma.
For more on my research in this area and a broader overview, please
see my blog archives:
http://mathforprofit.blogspot.com/2003_10_01_mathforprofit_archive.html
James Harris
.
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| User: "Nora Baron" |
|
| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
24 Jan 2004 01:46:09 PM |
|
|
(James Harris) wrote in message news:<3c65f87.0401240800.b9f07e1@posting.google.com>...
For about two years now I've been trying to explain an algebraic
method for analyzing polynomials that relies on non-polynomial
factors. My research is a natural extension in the polynomial domain
of the idea of irrationality in the integer domain. Basically, I look
at the equivalent of irrational factors with polynomials.
Recently Rick Decker, a professor at Hamilton College, apparently
trying to refute my research came up with a quadratic example, which I
like because it's a quadratic, and easier to manipulate than the
cubics I've used before.
If you wish to see his original post here are some headers which also
show that he is indeed at Hamilton College:
Message-ID: <3FF47C4C.6080109@hamilton.edu>
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 15:00:12 -0500
From: Rick Decker <rdecker@hamilton.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.math
Subject: Re: Mathematical consistency, courage
Decker put forward the quadratic
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5a_2(x) + 7) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
where his a's are roots of
a^2 - (x - 1)a + 7(x^2 + x).
The factors (5a_1(x) + 7) and (5a_2(x) + 7) are examples of
non-polynomial factors.
Notice that despite not being polynomials they are algebraic integers
if x is an algebraic integer because a_1(x) and a_2(x) are the two
roots of
a^2 - (x - 1)a + 7(x^2 + x).
To my knowledge mathematicians have never done extensive research with
non-polynomial factors of polynomials, but instead most work in the
area has to do with finding roots to polynomials, or determining if
polynomials with rational coefficients are reducible over rationals.
The extension into the realm of non-polynomial factors has revealed a
problem with a previous understanding of mathematicians in the area of
the ring of algebraic integers. It's easy to prove the problem.
Consider that algebraically, factorizations multiply out in a certain
way demonstrated by
(a+b)(c+d) = ac + ad + bc + bd
and that's just a FACT which is not open to debate.
Looking at
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5a_2(x) + 7) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
it is possible then to multiply out the factors on the left to obtain
25 a_1(x) a_2(x) + 35 a_1(x) + 35 a_2(x) + 49 = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2).
Now subtracting 14 from both sides gives
25 a_1(x) a_2(x) + 35 a_1(x) + 35 a_2(x) + 35 = 7(25x^2 + 30x)
which reveals an imbalance as 35 is the constant left on the left,
while 0 is what's on the right.
A simple linear transformation helps balance the factorization, as
using
a_2(x) = b_2(x) - 1, and making the substitution gives
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2).
Now multiplying out I get
25 a_1(x) b_2(x) + 10 a_1(x) + 35 b_2(x) + 14 = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
and subtracting 14 from both sides gives
25 a_1(x) b_2(x) + 10 a_1(x) + 35 b_2(x) = 7(25x^2 + 30x)
so as expected the constants 7 and 2 on the left are factors of 7(2)
on the right.
The mathematics is trivially obvious in that regard, but from that
simple result, obvious from basic arithmetic, I have a truly profound
conclusion.
That is, given that with
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
the 7 and 2 on the left are factors of 7(2) on the right, if I divide
that constant factor 7, visible as a factor of
7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
from both sides then to remain in the ring of algebraic integers,
there's only one way logically to do it:
(5a_1(x)/7 + 1)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 25x^2 + 30x + 2
as any other way, like factoring 7 into two other non-unit factors
will require that you have numbers not available in the ring of
algebraic integers.
For instance, assume there exists some value of x within the ring of
algebraic integers where the factors (5a_1(x) + 7) and (5b_2(x) + 2)
each have sqrt(7) as a factor (in fact, x=1 will work), then you'd
have
(5a_1(x)/sqrt(7) + sqrt(7))(5b_2(x)/sqrt(7) + 2/sqrt(7)) =
25x^2 + 30x + 2
which reveals the two factors of 2 on the right, as being sqrt(7) and
2/sqrt(7) on the left.
Remember, algebra gives a rigid format for multiplying out, as I
pointed out before with
(a+b)(c+d) = ac + ad + bc + bd
so there shouldn't be debate here from people who accept algebra.
Notice that works in the field of algebraic numbers, but not in the
ring of algebraic integers.
But it turns out that it's possible to prove that even with the
factorization
(5a_1(x)/7 + 1)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 25x^2 + 30x + 2
that (5a_1(x)/7 + 1) is not in general an algebraic integer.
What makes this result so surprising is that the necessary conclusion
is that you cannot operate completely in the ring of algebraic
integers if you divide both sides of
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
by 7, as then *necessarily* from basic algebra, you're forced out of
the ring as you then must have factors of 2 that are outside the ring
of algebraic integers, as I demonstrated with sqrt(7) as *necessarily*
then the factors of 2 are sqrt(7) and 2/sqrt(7) which are not in the
ring of algebraic integers.
But recall what Rick Decker found originally:
when x = 1,
P(x) = P(1) = 7*57.
Rick showed that P(1)/7 can be factored in the form
57 = (5*sqrt(-2) +sqrt(7))*(-5*sqrt(-2) + sqrt(7)),
that is, there is a factorization in which all the
coefficients are algebraic integers.
You appear to be claiming this is impossible. How
do you resolve this?
Nora B.
Extensions of mathematical knowledge tend to produce surprising
results, and some people can't handle a world where areas once thought
settled are revealed to contain new results. But my hope is that some
of you are actually mathematical researchers versus seeing yourselves
as mere caretakers of dogma.
For more on my research in this area and a broader overview, please
see my blog archives:
http://mathforprofit.blogspot.com/2003_10_01_mathforprofit_archive.html
James Harris
.
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| User: "David C. Ullrich" |
|
| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
25 Jan 2004 06:26:38 AM |
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On 24 Jan 2004 11:46:09 -0800, (Nora Baron)
wrote:
jstevh@msn.com (James Harris) wrote in message news:<3c65f87.0401240800.b9f07e1@posting.google.com>...
[...]
What makes this result so surprising is that the necessary conclusion
is that you cannot operate completely in the ring of algebraic
integers if you divide both sides of
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
by 7, as then *necessarily* from basic algebra, you're forced out of
the ring as you then must have factors of 2 that are outside the ring
of algebraic integers, as I demonstrated with sqrt(7) as *necessarily*
then the factors of 2 are sqrt(7) and 2/sqrt(7) which are not in the
ring of algebraic integers.
But recall what Rick Decker found originally:
when x = 1,
P(x) = P(1) = 7*57.
Rick showed that P(1)/7 can be factored in the form
57 = (5*sqrt(-2) +sqrt(7))*(-5*sqrt(-2) + sqrt(7)),
that is, there is a factorization in which all the
coefficients are algebraic integers.
You appear to be claiming this is impossible. How
do you resolve this?
Well this is curious, "Nora Baron". James has implied
recently that the only reason people disagree with his
results is that they don't like them - in snippage below
he explains that some people just can't handle the
truth. But here it appears that you're _not_ just saying
you don't like the result, you're giving a simple explanation
of an error in the reasoning.
I'm so confused. Surely James wasn't just _ignoring_
this sort of reply when he explained that the only
reason people disagree is that they don't _like_
his results. He wouldn't do that.
Nora B.
************************
David C. Ullrich
.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
|
| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
24 Jan 2004 07:12:55 PM |
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James Harris wrote:
For about two years now I've been trying to explain an algebraic
method for analyzing polynomials that relies on non-polynomial
factors.
[snip]
For an equally long time a very large audience has empirically
demonstrated by simple explicit evalution of your ravings that you are
a complete incompetent and a psychotic idiot.
Hey stooopid loud troll James Harris, put up or shut up,
http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/challenges/factoring/faq.html
http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/challenges/factoring/numbers.html
http://www.crank.net/harris.html
It's not every braying jackass that gets a whole page at crank.net
Is a $10,000 prize no questions asked too small to justify your
submission of two little prime numbers?
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c65f87.0212222034.d5959fd%40posting.google.com>
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c65f87.0212251249.4b69d7c5%40posting.google.com>
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
.
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| User: "The Ghost In The Machine" |
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| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
25 Jan 2004 10:59:52 AM |
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In sci.logic, Uncle Al
<UncleAl0@hate.spam.net>
wrote
on Sat, 24 Jan 2004 17:12:55 -0800
<40131817.12671A08@hate.spam.net>:
James Harris wrote:
For about two years now I've been trying to explain an algebraic
method for analyzing polynomials that relies on non-polynomial
factors.
[snip]
For an equally long time a very large audience has empirically
demonstrated by simple explicit evalution of your ravings that you are
a complete incompetent and a psychotic idiot.
Hey stooopid loud troll James Harris, put up or shut up,
http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/challenges/factoring/faq.html
http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/challenges/factoring/numbers.html
http://www.crank.net/harris.html
It's not every braying jackass that gets a whole page at crank.net
Is a $10,000 prize no questions asked too small to justify your
submission of two little prime numbers?
Pedant point.
RSA-576 has been factored. He'll have to go for the $20K.
It's only a 640 bit number; with brute-force techniques it
might take 2.3 * 10^85 computer-years or so, assuming one
factorization attempt per millisecond and eliminating even
numbers and multiples of 3. Of course there are a number
of optimizations; I'll admit I don't know them.
There's the little issue of power source, of course, as the
heat death of the Universe is (AFAIK) currently estimated
at about 5 * 10^10 year, and the death of the Sun at about
5 * 10^9 year, which will probably vaporize anything on the
Earth, if it doesn't swallow it whole. There are issues at
about 1 * 10^9 year in regards to the increased insolation
creating global warming which will make our current worries
look very small.
(Good luck, James. You'll need it!)
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c65f87.0212222034.d5959fd%40posting.google.com>
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c65f87.0212251249.4b69d7c5%40posting.google.com>
--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.
.
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| User: "Arraitz" |
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| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
26 Jan 2004 01:57:20 AM |
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Oh, my god... I have never read those past posts before... do you
always include the links in the james signature?
I generally enjoy the arguments an counter-arguments of the posters
vs. James, but now I feel kinda sad...
Arraitz.
--------------------------------------------------------
"That's free enterprise, friends: freedom to gamble, freedom to lose.
And the great thing -- the truly democratic thing about it -- is that
you don't even have to be a player to lose."
-Barbara Ehrenreich
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<40131817.12671A08@hate.spam.net>...
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c65f87.0212222034.d5959fd%40posting.google.com>
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c65f87.0212251249.4b69d7c5%40posting.google.com>
.
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| User: "Nathan Penton" |
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| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
26 Jan 2004 10:24:44 AM |
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(Arraitz) wrote in message news:<1489d39f.0401252357.4040a655@posting.google.com>...
Oh, my god... I have never read those past posts before... do you
always include the links in the james signature?
I generally enjoy the arguments an counter-arguments of the posters
vs. James, but now I feel kinda sad...
Arraitz.
Don't be fooled. He's repeatedly made clear that his desire is to get
people who understand math to stop replying to his posts, so that when
he (or somebody) looks up his posts on Usenet, it looks like he's
right, because nobody's refuting him. That's why he always starts a
new thread. Knowing this (and knowing his dishonesty) I wouldn't give
much (or any) stock to a post that essentially says "I'm sick, and by
refuting my math you're making me sicker, but instead of seeking
treatment I'm just going to insist you stop refuting my math." Yeah,
right.
Nathan
.
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| User: "Tobias Fritz" |
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| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
25 Jan 2004 04:50:22 AM |
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Uncle Al wrote:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c65f87.0212251249.4b69d7c5%40posting.google.com>
I've just read this post and somehow I feel sorry for you.
I've become really bothered by my posting, but I can't seem to stop.
However, I realized that part of the sick cycle are some of those
people who reply to me so negatively, so in the hope that these people
might show mercy I thought I'd post something I found on the web, with
limited hope, I admit, that anything will change.
"Alternatively, the narcissist feels victimized by mediocre
bureaucrats and intellectual dwarves who consistently fail to
appreciate his outstanding - really, unparalleled - talents, skills,
and accomplishments. Being haunted by his challenged inferiors
substantiates the narcissist's comparative superiority. Driven by
pathological envy, these pygmies collude to defraud him, badger him,
deny him his due, denigrate, isolate, and ignore him. The narcissist
projects onto this second class of lesser persecutors his own
deleterious emotions and transformed aggression: hatred, rage, and
seething jealousy."
But here are the scary quotes:
"Paranoid ideation - the narcissist's deep-rooted conviction that he
is being persecuted by his inferiors, detractors, or powerful
ill-wishers - serves two psychodynamic purposes. It upholds the
narcissist's grandiosity and it fends off intimacy."
"The paranoid delusions of the narcissist are always grandiose,
"cosmic", or "historical". His pursuers are influential and
formidable. They are after his unique possessions, out to exploit his
expertise and special traits, or to force him to abstain and refrain
from certain actions. The narcissist feels that he is at the center of
intrigues and conspiracies of colossal magnitudes."
"The paranoid narcissist ends life as an oddball recluse - derided,
feared, and loathed in equal measures. His paranoia - exacerbated by
repeated rejections and ageing - pervades his entire life and
diminishes his creativity, adaptability, and functioning. The
narcisstis personality, buffetted by paranoia, turns ossified and
brittle. Finally, atomized and useless, it succumbs and gives way to a
great void. The narcissist is consumed."
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/6514/95897
It looks like a person in the grips of this narcissism thing loses
connection with reality but somehow *feeds* on ANY attention,
including negative attention.
They called it "narcissistic supply".
It really is a twisted illness that apparently can lead to even
nastier illnesses. I am self-diagnosed (typical narcissistic
behavior) but it looks like it fits to me.
However, I've decided that I don't want to succumb to mental woes, so
I am fighting the dark narcissist within by making this informative
post, though it's probably a sign of the illness. In any event, maybe
it will help in the long run as information is power.
I will do my best to stop posting, but it will help if some of you try
to help out by not replying to me, or if you reply, by refraining from
the attacks that feed my narcissistic side, and its irrational beliefs
that everyone is out to get me. If you have facts, sure, no problem.
My inability to face facts presented without emotion will just be a
sign of the dark side.
My only fear now is that some of you are sick as well, and act from
your own illness, so that you can't stop attacking in your posting.
But on this Christmas Day, I will act from hope, and hopefully this
New Year will bring a change, and an escape from the madness.
James Harris
--
reverse my forename for mail! - saibot
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
24 Jan 2004 10:28:44 AM |
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James Harris wrote:
For about two years now I've been trying to explain an algebraic
method for analyzing polynomials that relies on non-polynomial
factors. My research is a natural extension in the polynomial domain
of the idea of irrationality in the integer domain. Basically, I look
at the equivalent of irrational factors with polynomials.
I thought you had died and I went to heaven, but here you are to prove
me wrong.
Bob Kolker
.
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| User: "C. Bond" |
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| Title: Re: Algebra shows algebraic integer limitation |
24 Jan 2004 10:10:20 AM |
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James Harris wrote:
[snip]
But it turns out that it's possible to prove that even with the
factorization
(5a_1(x)/7 + 1)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 25x^2 + 30x + 2
that (5a_1(x)/7 + 1) is not in general an algebraic integer.
What makes this result so surprising
Surprising? To whom?
is that the necessary conclusion
is that you cannot operate completely in the ring of algebraic
integers if you divide both sides of
(5a_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2) = 7(25x^2 + 30x + 2)
by 7,
That is *not* a necessary conclusion.
[snip error-ridden pseudo-math]
--
There are two things you must never attempt to prove: the unprovable -- and
the obvious.
--
Democracy: The triumph of popularity over principle.
--
http://www.crbond.com
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