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Topic: Science > Physics
User: ""
Date: 28 Sep 2003 08:42:49 AM
Object: An entertaining physics puzzle
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Dear all,
Here is a physics puzzle for your entertainment.
The puzzle has two parts: The first part is a description of a simple
experiment based on evaporation and osmosis. A seemingly reasonable
outcome of the experiment is given along with some justification.
The second part is a proof - or rather, a suggestion of a proof - that
the description must be fundamentally flawed. However, the proof gives
hardly any hints about where the error lies in the description.
Your job is to identify the error in the description - or in the proof
- - - or in how these two relate to one another, or ... Well, you go
figure it out!
Have fun! Let's hear your solutions!
Yours,
Sam Po
PART I: DESCRIPTION
Let us first set up some equipment: We take two pipes and equip
each pipe with a valve, which allows us to open or close the pipe
at will. In one of the pipes we place a semipermeable membrane so
that anything that goes through the pipe must pass through the
membrane.
Next, we take two containers that can hold vacuum. We insert one
end of the pipe that holds the membrane through a hole at the
bottom of one container and the other end through a hole at the
bottom of the other container. Then we take the other pipe do the
same thing but this time the holes are at the tops of the containers.
We will need some solvent and solute suitable for our purposes: The
solvent can pass through the membrane but the solute cannot. Also,
the solvent evaporates easily and the solute does not.
We pump all air out the containers and the pipes, make sure that
the lower valve is open and the upper valve is closed. Then we
inject a small amount of pure solute in container A and a large
amount of solution comprising solvent and solute in container B.
As a result, the lower pipe should be completely filled with liquid,
container A should be almost empty and container B should be
almost full. The surface of the liquid in the container B should be
much higher than in container A; high enough to ensure that the
solvent starts flowing from container B through the lower pipe to
container A.
The flow will stop when equilibrium of different pressures -
including hydrostatic, osmotic, vapor - is reached at the
membrane. Neither container is empty.
There is also equilibrium in each container between evaporation
and condensation. The vapor pressure at equilibrium is smaller in
container B than in container A because of the solvent in container
B.
We open the upper valve and the solvent starts to move from
container A through the upper pipe to container B in vaporous
form. This is because evaporation dominates in container A and
condensation dominates in container B. This continues as long as
the valve is open and we do not run out of solvent.
We close the upper valve, when container A is almost empty. We
can then start the cycle over by opening the lower valve. The
solvent will once again flow from container B to container A, etc.
PART II: PROOF
By now it should be obvious that something is wrong because the
system would just keep on running forever. That is not necessarily
alarming because so does a spinning top, in theory, if you ignore
air resistance, friction, etc.
What is more alarming is that we can actually draw an infinite
amount of energy out of the process by, say, placing a rotor in
one of the pipes or buoy in one of the containers and use its
movement to generate electricity without ever causing the process
to stop.
A step by step analysis would show that the whenever energy is
drawn out of the system, it draws an equal amount of heat energy
from the surroundings. This is impossible because it would violate
the second law of thermodynamics.
PS: The description requires that air is pumped out of the
containers and pipes. This is optional, but simplifies the puzzle
a bit.
END
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.

User: "Sasha Semenov"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 28 Sep 2003 09:42:20 AM
<root@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message news:bl6ogp$2v8$1@localhost.localdomain...

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Hash: SHA1

Dear all,

Here is a physics puzzle for your entertainment.

The puzzle has two parts: The first part is a description of a simple
experiment based on evaporation and osmosis. A seemingly reasonable
outcome of the experiment is given along with some justification.

The second part is a proof - or rather, a suggestion of a proof - that
the description must be fundamentally flawed. However, the proof gives
hardly any hints about where the error lies in the description.

Your job is to identify the error in the description - or in the proof
- - - or in how these two relate to one another, or ... Well, you go
figure it out!

Have fun! Let's hear your solutions!

Yours,
Sam Po

PART I: DESCRIPTION

Let us first set up some equipment: We take two pipes and equip
each pipe with a valve, which allows us to open or close the pipe
at will. In one of the pipes we place a semipermeable membrane so
that anything that goes through the pipe must pass through the
membrane.

Next, we take two containers that can hold vacuum. We insert one
end of the pipe that holds the membrane through a hole at the
bottom of one container and the other end through a hole at the
bottom of the other container. Then we take the other pipe do the
same thing but this time the holes are at the tops of the containers.

We will need some solvent and solute suitable for our purposes: The
solvent can pass through the membrane but the solute cannot. Also,
the solvent evaporates easily and the solute does not.

We pump all air out the containers and the pipes, make sure that
the lower valve is open and the upper valve is closed. Then we
inject a small amount of pure solute in container A and a large
amount of solution comprising solvent and solute in container B.
As a result, the lower pipe should be completely filled with liquid,
container A should be almost empty and container B should be
almost full. The surface of the liquid in the container B should be
much higher than in container A; high enough to ensure that the
solvent starts flowing from container B through the lower pipe to
container A.

The flow will stop when equilibrium of different pressures -
including hydrostatic, osmotic, vapor - is reached at the
membrane. Neither container is empty.

There is also equilibrium in each container between evaporation
and condensation.
The vapor pressure at equilibrium is smaller in
container B than in container A because of the solvent in container
B.

Wrong. Those pressures are exactly equal. At least at the same level
of height. They are different indeed at surface levels, but
surface levels are at different heights. In fact, using your
gedunken experiment (and assuming it cannot work) one can easily
derive reduction of saturated vapor pressure due to solute:
P_solution/P = exp[ - m P_osmotic/(\rho_liquid T)]
(I approximate vapor as ideal gas here).
This is of cource quite similar to reduction of saturated pressure
above convex surface in capillary due to surface tension.


We open the upper valve and the solvent starts to move from
container A through the upper pipe to container B in vaporous
form. This is because evaporation dominates in container A and
condensation dominates in container B. This continues as long as
the valve is open and we do not run out of solvent.

We close the upper valve, when container A is almost empty. We
can then start the cycle over by opening the lower valve. The
solvent will once again flow from container B to container A, etc.

PART II: PROOF

By now it should be obvious that something is wrong because the
system would just keep on running forever. That is not necessarily
alarming because so does a spinning top, in theory, if you ignore
air resistance, friction, etc.

What is more alarming is that we can actually draw an infinite
amount of energy out of the process by, say, placing a rotor in
one of the pipes or buoy in one of the containers and use its
movement to generate electricity without ever causing the process
to stop.

A step by step analysis would show that the whenever energy is
drawn out of the system, it draws an equal amount of heat energy
from the surroundings. This is impossible because it would violate
the second law of thermodynamics.

PS: The description requires that air is pumped out of the
containers and pipes. This is optional, but simplifies the puzzle
a bit.

END
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=cbKw
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.

User: "Edward Green"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 28 Sep 2003 08:48:05 PM
root@localhost.localdomain wrote in message news:<bl6ogp$2v8$1@localhost.localdomain>...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dear all,

Here is a physics puzzle for your entertainment.

The puzzle has two parts: The first part is a description of a simple
experiment based on evaporation and osmosis. A seemingly reasonable
outcome of the experiment is given along with some justification.

The second part is a proof - or rather, a suggestion of a proof - that
the description must be fundamentally flawed. However, the proof gives
hardly any hints about where the error lies in the description.

Your job is to identify the error in the description - or in the proof
- - - or in how these two relate to one another, or ... Well, you go
figure it out!

Have fun! Let's hear your solutions!

<snip>
With either or both valves open in your description, the solvent is
free to comunicate between the two containers, the solute is not.
Therefore, with either or both valves open, the solvent is in
equilibrium across the two containers, the solute is not. Nothing
changes when we open the second valve.
End of story.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 29 Sep 2003 07:07:15 AM
In article <2a0cceff.0309281748.26a552d3@posting.google.com>,
(Edward Green) wrote:
Hooray!!
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
.
User: "Edward Green"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 29 Sep 2003 04:47:51 PM
wrote in message news:<bl9bh2$fjl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>...

In article <2a0cceff.0309281748.26a552d3@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

Hooray!!

/BAH

Hi. Seen Mati Meron?
.
User: ""

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 30 Sep 2003 06:16:25 AM
In article <2a0cceff.0309291347.f26ba21@posting.google.com>,
(Edward Green) wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message news:<bl9bh2$fjl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>...

In article <2a0cceff.0309281748.26a552d3@posting.google.com>,

(Edward Green) wrote:

Hooray!!

/BAH


Hi.

'ey, Ed :-))

.. Seen Mati Meron?

Yup. He's right down there |
V
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 30 Sep 2003 06:23:05 AM
In article <blbsu2$95g$6@bob.news.rcn.net>,
wrote:

In article <2a0cceff.0309291347.f26ba21@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

wrote in message

news:<bl9bh2$fjl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>...

In article <2a0cceff.0309281748.26a552d3@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

Hooray!!

/BAH


Hi.


'ey, Ed :-))

.. Seen Mati Meron?


Yup. He's right down there |
V


Oh, ratzafratz...I was in the wrong frame of reference.
^
He's really up there |.
How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.
/BAH
/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
.
User: "Richard Henry"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 30 Sep 2003 04:17:11 PM
<
> wrote in message news:blbtai$95g$8@bob.news.rcn.net...

In article <blbsu2$95g$6@bob.news.rcn.net>,

wrote:

In article <2a0cceff.0309291347.f26ba21@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

wrote in message

news:<bl9bh2$fjl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>...

In article <2a0cceff.0309281748.26a552d3@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

Hooray!!

/BAH


Hi.


'ey, Ed :-))

.. Seen Mati Meron?


Yup. He's right down there |
V



Oh, ratzafratz...I was in the wrong frame of reference.

^
He's really up there |.

How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.

/\
/||\
||
.
User: "Edward Green"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 30 Sep 2003 09:46:55 PM
"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message news:<vpmeb.5152$La.830@fed1read02>...

<

> wrote in message news:blbtai$95g$8@bob.news.rcn.net...

In article <blbsu2$95g$6@bob.news.rcn.net>,

wrote:

In article <2a0cceff.0309291347.f26ba21@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

wrote in message

news:<bl9bh2$fjl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>...

In article <2a0cceff.0309281748.26a552d3@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

Hooray!!

/BAH


Hi.


'ey, Ed :-))

.. Seen Mati Meron?


Yup. He's right down there |
V



Oh, ratzafratz...I was in the wrong frame of reference.

^
He's really up there |.

How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.


/\
/||\
||

Bold, but cumbersome.
It seems to me I remember the genuine single character up arrow:
mainly in screen dumps of garbage when random noise explores every
character your system is capable of producing: most of them arcane.
.
User: "RP Henry dot com"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 01 Oct 2003 11:05:15 AM
"Edward Green" <nulldev00@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a0cceff.0309301846.19d83e27@posting.google.com...

"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message

news:<vpmeb.5152$La.830@fed1read02>...

<

> wrote in message

news:blbtai$95g$8@bob.news.rcn.net...

In article <blbsu2$95g$6@bob.news.rcn.net>,

wrote:

In article <2a0cceff.0309291347.f26ba21@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

wrote in message

news:<bl9bh2$fjl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>...

In article <2a0cceff.0309281748.26a552d3@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

Hooray!!

/BAH


Hi.


'ey, Ed :-))

.. Seen Mati Meron?


Yup. He's right down there |
V



Oh, ratzafratz...I was in the wrong frame of reference.

^
He's really up there |.

How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.


/\
/||\
||


Bold, but cumbersome.

It seems to me I remember the genuine single character up arrow:
mainly in screen dumps of garbage when random noise explores every
character your system is capable of producing: most of them arcane.

There is a single-character up-arrow at position 24 in the "IBM ASCII
Character Set" (as found on p. 1-20 of _the Programmer's PC Sourcebook_ by
Thom Hogan (Microsoft Press, 1991). I will type the character below using
the alt-numeric method. You may or may not see it depending on your
computer, operating system , newsreader font selection, etc, etc.
?
Did you see it?
.
User: "hanson"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 01 Oct 2003 11:21:08 AM
"RP Henry" <richard.p.henry@saic dot com> wrote in message
news:3f7a98d6$1@cpns1.saic.com...


"Edward Green" <nulldev00@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a0cceff.0309301846.19d83e27@posting.google.com...

How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.


/\
/||\
||


Bold, but cumbersome.

It seems to me I remember the genuine single character up arrow:
mainly in screen dumps of garbage when random noise explores every
character your system is capable of producing: most of them arcane.


There is a single-character up-arrow at position 24 in the "IBM ASCII
Character Set" (as found on p. 1-20 of _the Programmer's PC Sourcebook_ by
Thom Hogan (Microsoft Press, 1991). I will type the character below using
the alt-numeric method. You may or may not see it depending on your
computer, operating system , newsreader font selection, etc, etc.

?

Did you see it?


No ..... nothing....
Likewise, I posted yesterday:

Try this:
Single character up arrow is Alt + 24 on #pad =↑ when sent in unicode.
Single character up triangle is Alt + 30 on #pad = ▲ when sent in unicode.
I wonder whether this transmits properly as intended.
If not, well, win a few, lose a few.
hanson

I e-mailed a copy of the above to myself and the 2 arrow signs showed
up in the received mail. How does it or does it show up on your screen?
How are such low ascii codes sent that they become visible in print?
Somewhere there is also a 4 digit code set that has supposedly thousand
of such signs and type element. Where?
I thought we had a whole bunch of highclass programmers in this NG?
Help!
hanson
.
User: "RP Henry dot com"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 01 Oct 2003 11:52:44 AM
"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> wrote in message
news:U9Deb.11289$NX3.666@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

"RP Henry" <richard.p.henry@saic dot com> wrote in message
news:3f7a98d6$1@cpns1.saic.com...


"Edward Green" <nulldev00@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a0cceff.0309301846.19d83e27@posting.google.com...

How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.


/\
/||\
||


Bold, but cumbersome.

It seems to me I remember the genuine single character up arrow:
mainly in screen dumps of garbage when random noise explores every
character your system is capable of producing: most of them arcane.


There is a single-character up-arrow at position 24 in the "IBM ASCII
Character Set" (as found on p. 1-20 of _the Programmer's PC Sourcebook_

by

Thom Hogan (Microsoft Press, 1991). I will type the character below

using

the alt-numeric method. You may or may not see it depending on your
computer, operating system , newsreader font selection, etc, etc.

?

Did you see it?



No ..... nothing....

Likewise, I posted yesterday:

Try this:
Single character up arrow is Alt + 24 on #pad =? when sent in unicode.
Single character up triangle is Alt + 30 on #pad = ? when sent in

unicode.

I wonder whether this transmits properly as intended.
If not, well, win a few, lose a few.
hanson


I e-mailed a copy of the above to myself and the 2 arrow signs showed
up in the received mail. How does it or does it show up on your screen?
How are such low ascii codes sent that they become visible in print?
Somewhere there is also a 4 digit code set that has supposedly thousand
of such signs and type element. Where?
I thought we had a whole bunch of highclass programmers in this NG?
Help!
hanson

OK, I turned on Unicode instead of plain text, now try:
?
Looks good from here.


.


User: "RP Henry dot com"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 01 Oct 2003 11:14:46 AM
"RP Henry" <richard.p.henry@saic dot com> wrote in message
news:3f7a98d6$1@cpns1.saic.com...

There is a single-character up-arrow at position 24 in the "IBM ASCII
Character Set" (as found on p. 1-20 of _the Programmer's PC Sourcebook_ by
Thom Hogan (Microsoft Press, 1991). I will type the character below using
the alt-numeric method. You may or may not see it depending on your
computer, operating system , newsreader font selection, etc, etc.

?

Did you see it?

Interesting. It looked like the proper character when I composed it, but
comes through as a question mark when I read it off usenet.
.


User: "hanson"

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 30 Sep 2003 10:08:28 PM
"Edward Green" <nulldev00@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a0cceff.0309301846.19d83e27@posting.google.com...

"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message

news:<vpmeb.5152$La.830@fed1read02>...

How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.


/\
/||\
||


Bold, but cumbersome.
It seems to me I remember the genuine single character up arrow.
-- Ed

Try this:
Single character up arrow is Alt + 24 on #pad =↑ when sent in unicode.
Single character up triangle is Alt + 30 on #pad = ▲ when sent in unicode.
I wonder whether this transmits properly as intended.
If not, well, win a few, lose a few.
hanson
.

User: ""

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 01 Oct 2003 04:41:46 AM
In article <2a0cceff.0309301846.19d83e27@posting.google.com>,
(Edward Green) wrote:

"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message

news:<vpmeb.5152$La.830@fed1read02>...

<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message

news:blbtai$95g$8@bob.news.rcn.net...
<snip>

^
He's really up there |.

How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.


/\
/||\
||


Bold, but cumbersome.

If looked like a guy with a cone hat to me :-). I'll try to
use it when the opportunity arises.


It seems to me I remember the genuine single character up arrow:
mainly in screen dumps of garbage when random noise explores every
character your system is capable of producing: most of them arcane.

We used it to indicate that a <CTRL> character was intended.
BTW, Mati wrote a very nice definition of division for me on
02Sep2003 in article <G_75b.24$%4.10241@news.uchicago.edu>
in the thread "My Book on Elementary Physics." There was another
thread around that time that was good, too, but I've lost it;
I think it was something about operators.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
.


User: ""

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 01 Oct 2003 04:44:30 AM
In article <vpmeb.5152$La.830@fed1read02>,
"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote:
<snip>

How do you guys make arrows pointing up in ASCII English? Once
upon a time, the uparrow used to really be one. Another character
to mourn its passing.


/\
/||\
||

ooohhh...When I replied to /erg, I wasn't looking at your picture
with an unporpotional font. Now, that I'm looking at it properly,
it does look like an arrow. <mutter>Proportional fonts only belong in
typesetting and not ASCII.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
.




User: ""

Title: Re: An entertaining physics puzzle 29 Sep 2003 05:06:03 PM
In article <2a0cceff.0309291347.f26ba21@posting.google.com>,
(Edward Green) writes:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message news:<bl9bh2$fjl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>...

In article <2a0cceff.0309281748.26a552d3@posting.google.com>,

(Edward Green) wrote:

Hooray!!

/BAH


Hi. Seen Mati Meron?

This morning, in the mirror.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.





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