Science > Physics > Anomaly Introduced by Including Finite Speed of Signal Transmission
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Keith" |
| Date: |
16 Mar 2007 04:08:18 PM |
| Object: |
Anomaly Introduced by Including Finite Speed of Signal Transmission |
This little physics puzzle has been stumping me for a while. Your
thoughtful comments are appreciated.
The anomaly is based on the assumption that nothing travels faster
than the speed of light. If we consider two particles (A and B) of
equal charge separated by some distance, the change in B's field
strength at A's position caused by a change in B's position will occur
at some finite non-zero time after the change in B's position. And,
of course, the inverse is true. Let's say that for some distance, D,
this minimum time that it must take for any information to travel
between the particles is time T. OK, let's get started.
In scenario 1, A and B are separated by distance D. A moves toward B
a small distance such that it travels from position A1 to position A2
in less than time T. Energy is used to move the particle, some
radiation may be generated by the particle's acceleration from rest at
A1 and also by its deceleration to rest at A2, and A's potential
energy has increased by P(S1). According to the conservation of
energy, all of these elements of energy will sum to zero.
In scenario 2, A and B are separated by distance D. A and B both move
toward each other a small distance such that they travels from
position A1/B1 to position A2/B2 in less than time T.
Now here's the problem. There are two things that are identical
between scenario 1 and scenario 2, but one thing that is different.
The two identical things in both scenarios are that the same amount of
energy is used to move A and the same amount of radiation is given off
by A. The different thing is that the final potential energy that A
gains is different. A gains potential energy P(S2) in scenario 2, and
P(S2) > P(S1). Before time T elapsed, A only gained potential energy
equal to P(S1). But after time T, the new increased field strength
due to B's closer position occurs, and A's potential energy increases
to P(S2). This extra potential energy does not appear to be balanced
by any other energy loss.
Due to the symmetry of the situation, we see that as long as both
particles are moved simultaneously, the same thing will happen to both
particle A and B. So we cannot say that this added potential energy
is balanced by an equal energy loss at particle B. Both particles
gain a small amount of unaccounted for potential energy due entirely
to the fact that the remote stronger field strength lagged the change
in position by a finite time T.
Further, we cannot assume that by returning the particles to their
original positions, we will be able to balance the energy equations.
Moving both particles back to their original positions within time T
results in extracting more energy than if the particles were moved
back slowly or one at a time.
Thank you for you time and consideration in reviewing this little
puzzle.
If you have a solution, could you please both post it for the public
benefit and also email me directly (keithkras@hotmail.com) so I don't
miss your response? Thanks.
.
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| User: "Androcles" |
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| Title: Re: Anomaly Introduced by Including Finite Speed of Signal Transmission |
16 Mar 2007 05:09:20 PM |
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"Keith" <keithkras@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
news:1174079298.632071.289950@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
This little physics puzzle has been stumping me for a while. Your
thoughtful comments are appreciated.
=20
The anomaly is based on the assumption that nothing travels faster
than the speed of light. If we consider two particles (A and B) of
equal charge separated by some distance, the change in B's field
strength at A's position caused by a change in B's position will occur
at some finite non-zero time after the change in B's position. And,
of course, the inverse is true. Let's say that for some distance, D,
this minimum time that it must take for any information to travel
between the particles is time T. OK, let's get started.
=20
In scenario 1, A and B are separated by distance D.
Ah, but because B is D units of distance from A, A must then
be D' units of distance from B. :-)
A moves toward B
a small distance such that it travels from position A1 to position A2
in less than time T. Energy is used to move the particle, some
radiation may be generated by the particle's acceleration from rest at
A1 and also by its deceleration to rest at A2, and A's potential
energy has increased by P(S1). According to the conservation of
energy, all of these elements of energy will sum to zero.
=20
In scenario 2, A and B are separated by distance D. =20
Ah, but because A is D' units of distance from B, B must then
be D units of distance from A. :-)
A and B both move
toward each other a small distance such that they travels from
position A1/B1 to position A2/B2 in less than time T.
=20
Now here's the problem. There are two things that are identical
between scenario 1 and scenario 2, but one thing that is different.
The two identical things in both scenarios are that the same amount of
energy is used to move A and the same amount of radiation is given off
by A. The different thing is that the final potential energy that A
gains is different. =20
Of course the final potential energy that A gains is different, A is =
further=20
from B than B is from A. Simple. Predicted by Einstein, the genius.
Face Princeton, genuflect and say three Hail Aethers.
Hail Aether,
Full of Light,
Einstein is with thee.
Blessed art thou among absolute frames of reference,
and blessed is the fruit of thy tomb, Lorentz Transform.
Holy Aether,
Daughter of Lunacy,
prey on us morons now,
and at the dilated hour of death.
Gawd the farther, Gawd the sun, Gawd the Holey Transform
There is no Gawd but Gawd, and Albert is his son.
There is no Nature but Mother Nature, and Lunacy is her daughter.
There is no profit without a prophet.
There is no prophet but Einstein... oops... Albert.
"But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured =
in the stationary system, with the velocity c-v; it follows, further, =
that the velocity of light c cannot be altered by composition with a =
velocity less than that of light." --Albert Einstein 1905.
Einstein, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer =
goodness freely created Relativity to make him share in his own blessed =
life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, Einstein draws =
close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with =
all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by =
sin, into the unity of his family, the Holey Church of Relativity. To =
accomplish this, when the fullness of dilated time had come, Einstein =
sent his Relativity as Redeemer and Savior. In his Relativity and =
through it, he invites men to become, in the Holy Lorentz Transform, his =
adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.=20
Are you a Catholic Relativist, a Protestant Relativist, a Jewish =
Relativist or a Moslem Relativist?
A gains potential energy P(S2) in scenario 2, and
P(S2) > P(S1). Before time T elapsed, A only gained potential energy
equal to P(S1). But after time T, the new increased field strength
due to B's closer position occurs, and A's potential energy increases
to P(S2). This extra potential energy does not appear to be balanced
by any other energy loss.
=20
Due to the symmetry of the situation, we see that as long as both
particles are moved simultaneously, the same thing will happen to both
particle A and B. So we cannot say that this added potential energy
is balanced by an equal energy loss at particle B. Both particles
gain a small amount of unaccounted for potential energy due entirely
to the fact that the remote stronger field strength lagged the change
in position by a finite time T.
=20
Further, we cannot assume that by returning the particles to their
original positions, we will be able to balance the energy equations.
Moving both particles back to their original positions within time T
results in extracting more energy than if the particles were moved
back slowly or one at a time.
=20
Thank you for you time and consideration in reviewing this little
puzzle.
If you have a solution, could you please both post it for the public
benefit and also email me directly (keithkras@hotmail.com) so I don't
miss your response? Thanks.
.
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| User: "boson boss" |
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| Title: Re: Anomaly Introduced by Including Finite Speed of Signal Transmission |
16 Mar 2007 06:21:06 PM |
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If you remember Langevin clock you can see the simplest way to get to
Lorentz. In this application of Pythagoras's theorem, the rays
reflected down-up-down are considered in two systems, in one they are
a height line, in another one they are a triangle. Next you consider
putting an equal sign between those. You can do that since the systems
are equivalent inertial. The same thing happens with time.
.
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| User: "Androcles" |
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| Title: Re: Anomaly Introduced by Including Finite Speed of Signal Transmission |
16 Mar 2007 06:31:42 PM |
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"boson boss" <junkerade@gmail.com> wrote in message =
news:1174087266.259051.44040@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
If you remember Langevin clock you can see the simplest way to get to
Lorentz.=20
Fuckhead.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Rocket/Rocket.htm
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