Science > Physics > Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML)
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Robert Karl Stonjek" |
| Date: |
22 Sep 2005 05:03:58 PM |
| Object: |
Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
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Nature 437, 519-521 (22 September 2005) | doi: 10.1038/nature03979
A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history =
of the Universe
O. Le F=E8vre1, S. Paltani1, S. Arnouts1, S. Charlot2,3, S. Foucaud4, O. =
Ilbert1,5, H. J. McCracken3,12, G. Zamorani6, D. Bottini4, B. Garilli4, =
V. Le Brun1, D. Maccagni4, J. P. Picat7, R. Scaramella8, M. Scodeggio4, =
L. Tresse1, G. Vettolani8, A. Zanichelli8, C. Adami1, S. Bardelli6, M. =
Bolzonella5, A. Cappi6, P. Ciliegi6, T. Contini7, P. Franzetti4, I. =
Gavignaud7,9, L. Guzzo10, A. Iovino10, B. Marano5, C. Marinoni10, A. =
Mazure1, B. Meneux1, R. Merighi6, R. Pell=F27, A. Pollo10, L. Pozzetti6, =
M. Radovich11, E. Zucca6, M. Arnaboldi11, M. Bondi8, A. Bongiorno5, G. =
Busarello11, L. Gregorini8, F. Lamareille7, G. Mathez7, Y. Mellier3,12, =
P. Merluzzi11, V. Ripepi11 and D. Rizzo7
To understand the evolution of galaxies, we need to know as accurately =
as possible how many galaxies were present in the Universe at different =
epochs1. Galaxies in the young Universe have hitherto mainly been =
identified using their expected optical colours2, 3, 4, but this leaves =
open the possibility that a significant population remains undetected =
because their colours are the result of a complex mix of stars, gas, =
dust or active galactic nuclei. Here we report the results of a =
flux-limited I-band survey of galaxies at look-back times of 9 to 12 =
billion years. We find 970 galaxies with spectroscopic redshifts between =
1.4 and 5. This population is 1.6 to 6.2 times larger than previous =
estimates2, 3, 4, with the difference increasing towards brighter =
magnitudes. Strong ultraviolet continua (in the rest frame of the =
galaxies) indicate vigorous star formation rates of more than 10?100 =
solar masses per year. As a consequence, the cosmic star formation rate =
representing the volume-averaged production of stars is higher than =
previously measured at redshifts of 3 to 4.
1.. Laboratoire d'Astrophysique de Marseille, OAMP, UMR6110, CNRS, =
Universit=E9 de Provence Aix-Marseille I, BP8, F-13376 Marseille cedex =
12, France=20
2.. Max Planck Institut fur Astrophysik, D-85741 Garching, Germany=20
3.. Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris, UMR 7095, 98 bis Bvd Arago, =
F-75014 Paris, France=20
4.. IASF-INAF, via Bassini 15, I-20133, Milano, Italy=20
5.. Universit=E0 di Bologna, Dipartimento di Astronomia, via Ranzani =
1, I-40127, Bologna, Italy=20
6.. INAF, Osservatorio Astronomico di Bologna, via Ranzani 1, I-40127, =
Bologna, Italy=20
7.. Laboratoire d'Astrophysique de l'Observatoire Midi-Pyr=E9n=E9es =
(UMR 5572), 14 avenue E. Belin, F-31400 Toulouse, France=20
8.. IRA-INAF, via Gobetti 101, I-40129, Bologna, Italy=20
9.. European Southern Observatory, Karl-Schwarzschild-Strasse 2, =
D-85748 Garching, Germany=20
10.. INAF, Osservatorio Astronomico di Brera, via Brera 28, Milan, =
Italy=20
11.. INAF, Osservatorio Astronomico di Capodimonte, via Moiariello 16, =
I-80131, Napoli, Italy=20
12.. Observatoire de Paris, LERMA, 61 Avenue de l'Observatoire, =
F-75014 Paris, France=20
Abstract and Full Text Links at Nature
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.html
Comment:
The closer we look, the more uniform the universe seems to be ie the =
differences between the present and early universe are ever less marked.
--=20
Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek
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<P id=3Dcite minmax_bound=3D"true"><I minmax_bound=3D"true">Nature</I> =
<B=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">437</B>, 519-521 (22 September 2005) | <ABBR=20
title=3D"Digital Object Identifier" minmax_bound=3D"true">doi</ABBR=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">: 10.1038/nature03979</P>
<H2 id=3Datl minmax_bound=3D"true">A large population of galaxies 9 to =
12 billion=20
years back in the history of the Universe</H2>
<P id=3Daug minmax_bound=3D"true">O. Le F=E8vre<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a1"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A></SUP>, S. Paltani<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a1"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A></SUP>, S. Arnouts<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a1"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A></SUP>, S. Charlot<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a2"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">2</A>,</SUP><SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a3"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">3</A></SUP>, S. Foucaud<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a4"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">4</A></SUP>, O. Ilbert<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a1"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A>,</SUP><SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a5"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">5</A></SUP>, H. J. McCracken<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a3"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">3</A>,</SUP><SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a12"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">12</A></SUP>, G. Zamorani<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a6"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">6</A></SUP>, D. Bottini<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a4"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">4</A></SUP>, B. Garilli<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a4"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">4</A></SUP>, V. Le Brun<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml#a1"=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A></SUP>, D. Maccagni<SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
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minmax_bound=3D"true">4</A></SUP>, J. P. Picat<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">7</A></SUP>, R. Scaramella<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
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minmax_bound=3D"true">8</A></SUP>, M. Scodeggio<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">4</A></SUP>, L. Tresse<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A></SUP>, G. Vettolani<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
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minmax_bound=3D"true">8</A></SUP>, A. Zanichelli<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">8</A></SUP>, C. Adami<SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A></SUP>, S. Bardelli<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">6</A></SUP>, M. Bolzonella<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">5</A></SUP>, A. Cappi<SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">6</A></SUP>, P. Ciliegi<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">4</A></SUP>, I. Gavignaud<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">7</A>,</SUP><SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">9</A></SUP>, L. Guzzo<SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">10</A></SUP>, A. Iovino<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A></SUP>, B. Meneux<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">1</A></SUP>, R. Merighi<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">7</A></SUP>, A. Pollo<SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">10</A></SUP>, L. Pozzetti<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">11</A></SUP>, E. Zucca<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">6</A></SUP>, M. Arnaboldi<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">11</A></SUP>, M. Bondi<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
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minmax_bound=3D"true">8</A></SUP>, A. Bongiorno<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">5</A></SUP>, G. Busarello<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">11</A></SUP>, L. Gregorini<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">8</A></SUP>, F. Lamareille<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">7</A></SUP>, G. Mathez<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">7</A></SUP>, Y. Mellier<SUP =
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title=3D"affiliated with "=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">3</A>,</SUP><SUP minmax_bound=3D"true"><A=20
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minmax_bound=3D"true">12</A></SUP>, P. Merluzzi<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">11</A></SUP>, V. Ripepi<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">11</A></SUP> and D. Rizzo<SUP =
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minmax_bound=3D"true">7</A></SUP></P>
<DIV id=3Dabs minmax_bound=3D"true">
<P class=3Dlead minmax_bound=3D"true">To understand the evolution of =
galaxies, we=20
need to know as accurately as possible how many galaxies were present in =
the=20
Universe at different epochs<SUP minmax_bound=3D"true">1</SUP>. Galaxies =
in the=20
young Universe have hitherto mainly been identified using their expected =
optical=20
colours<SUP minmax_bound=3D"true">2, </SUP><SUP minmax_bound=3D"true">3, =
</SUP><SUP=20
minmax_bound=3D"true">4</SUP>, but this leaves open the possibility that =
a=20
significant population remains undetected because their colours are the =
result=20
of a complex mix of stars, gas, dust or active galactic nuclei. Here we =
report=20
the results of a flux-limited I-band survey of galaxies at look-back =
times of 9=20
to 12 billion years. We find 970 galaxies with spectroscopic redshifts =
between=20
1.4 and 5. This population is 1.6 to 6.2 times larger than previous=20
estimates<SUP minmax_bound=3D"true">2, </SUP><SUP =
minmax_bound=3D"true">3,=20
</SUP><SUP minmax_bound=3D"true">4</SUP>, with the difference increasing =
towards=20
brighter magnitudes. Strong ultraviolet continua (in the rest frame of =
the=20
galaxies) indicate vigorous star formation rates of more than =
10−100 solar=20
masses per year. As a consequence, the cosmic star formation rate =
representing=20
the volume-averaged production of stars is higher than previously =
measured at=20
redshifts of 3 to 4.</P></DIV>
<DIV id=3Daffiliations-notes minmax_bound=3D"true">
<OL minmax_bound=3D"true">
<LI id=3Da1 minmax_bound=3D"true">Laboratoire d'Astrophysique de =
Marseille, OAMP,=20
UMR6110, CNRS, Universit=E9 de Provence Aix-Marseille I, BP8, F-13376 =
Marseille=20
cedex 12, France=20
<LI id=3Da2 minmax_bound=3D"true">Max Planck Institut fur Astrophysik, =
D-85741=20
Garching, Germany=20
<LI id=3Da3 minmax_bound=3D"true">Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris, =
UMR 7095, 98=20
bis Bvd Arago, F-75014 Paris, France=20
<LI id=3Da4 minmax_bound=3D"true">IASF-INAF, via Bassini 15, I-20133, =
Milano,=20
Italy=20
<LI id=3Da5 minmax_bound=3D"true">Universit=E0 di Bologna, =
Dipartimento di=20
Astronomia, via Ranzani 1, I-40127, Bologna, Italy=20
<LI id=3Da6 minmax_bound=3D"true">INAF, Osservatorio Astronomico di =
Bologna, via=20
Ranzani 1, I-40127, Bologna, Italy=20
<LI id=3Da7 minmax_bound=3D"true">Laboratoire d'Astrophysique de =
l'Observatoire=20
Midi-Pyr=E9n=E9es (UMR 5572), 14 avenue E. Belin, F-31400 Toulouse, =
France=20
<LI id=3Da8 minmax_bound=3D"true">IRA-INAF, via Gobetti 101, I-40129, =
Bologna,=20
Italy=20
<LI id=3Da9 minmax_bound=3D"true">European Southern Observatory,=20
Karl-Schwarzschild-Strasse 2, D-85748 Garching, Germany=20
<LI id=3Da10 minmax_bound=3D"true">INAF, Osservatorio Astronomico di =
Brera, via=20
Brera 28, Milan, Italy=20
<LI id=3Da11 minmax_bound=3D"true">INAF, Osservatorio Astronomico di =
Capodimonte,=20
via Moiariello 16, I-80131, Napoli, Italy=20
<LI id=3Da12 minmax_bound=3D"true">Observatoire de Paris, LERMA, 61 =
Avenue de=20
l'Observatoire, F-75014 Paris, France </LI></OL>
<P class=3Dcaff minmax_bound=3D"true">Abstract and Full Text Links at =
Nature<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.h=
tml">http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7058/abs/nature03979.html=
</A></P>
<P class=3Dcaff minmax_bound=3D"true">Comment:<BR>The closer we look, =
the more=20
uniform the universe seems to be ie the differences between the present =
and=20
early universe are ever less marked.</P>
<P class=3Dcaff minmax_bound=3D"true"><BR>-- <BR>Posted by<BR>Robert =
Karl=20
Stonjek</P></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5C015.57A981E0--
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| User: "srp" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
22 Sep 2005 09:41:07 PM |
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"Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news: iTFYe.10210$0E5.8725@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The closer we look, the more uniform the universe seems to be ie the
differences
between the present and early universe are ever less marked.
Presumably meaning that the universe is about the same age all over.
André Michaud
.
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| User: "M D Meenken" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
23 Sep 2005 01:34:03 AM |
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|
"srp" <srp@microtec.net> schreef in bericht
news:7XJYe.302431$on1.174625@clgrps13...
"Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news: iTFYe.10210$0E5.8725@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The closer we look, the more uniform the universe seems to be ie the
differences
between the present and early universe are ever less marked.
Presumably meaning that the universe is about the same age all over.
what about when we look back f.i. 16 or 17 billion years?
André Michaud
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| User: "srp" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
23 Sep 2005 11:32:31 AM |
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|
"M D Meenken" <mdmeenken@wanadoo.nl> a écrit dans le message de news:
4333a1e9$0$81184$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
"srp" <srp@microtec.net> schreef in bericht
news:7XJYe.302431$on1.174625@clgrps13...
"Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news: iTFYe.10210$0E5.8725@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The closer we look, the more uniform the universe seems to be ie the
differences
between the present and early universe are ever less marked.
Presumably meaning that the universe is about the same age all over.
What about when we look back f.i. 16 or 17 billion years?
This is assuming that the theory of the Big Bang is more than a theory,
and also that the Hubble red shift can be explained only by the currently
accepted cause. Hubble himself expressed doubts in this regard.
Whenever inconsistencies come to light between observed reality and
theories, there seems little doubt in my mind that the theories need suffer
a second look and come out the loser in any such encounter.
Presently, no one knows how the universe began.
André Michaud
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
26 Sep 2005 02:36:55 AM |
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srp wrote:
"M D Meenken" <mdmeenken@wanadoo.nl> a =E9crit dans le message de news:
4333a1e9$0$81184$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
"srp" <srp@microtec.net> schreef in bericht
news:7XJYe.302431$on1.174625@clgrps13...
"Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@ozemail.com.au> a =E9crit dans le messa=
ge de
news: iTFYe.10210$0E5.8725@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The closer we look, the more uniform the universe seems to be ie the
differences
between the present and early universe are ever less marked.
Presumably meaning that the universe is about the same age all over.
What about when we look back f.i. 16 or 17 billion years?
This is assuming that the theory of the Big Bang is more than a theory,
and also that the Hubble red shift can be explained only by the currently
accepted cause. Hubble himself expressed doubts in this regard.
Whenever inconsistencies come to light between observed reality and
theories, there seems little doubt in my mind that the theories need suff=
er
a second look and come out the loser in any such encounter.
Presently, no one knows how the universe began.
Most likely:
The universe did not "begin"; it has ALWAYS existed in a perpetual
state of flux, with galaxies and all their constituents forming,
decaying, and changing throughout an infinity of TIME (NOT a
dimension!), and distance in three dimensions.
It is only the human brain (psyche), which, being unable to
compute/understand/accept the concept of 1/0, mark it as "undefined",
and feverishly search for magical theories of "beginnings" and
"expansions" to fill the void of their ignorance.
(Myself being of the former, but rejecting the latter)
Jim G
c'=3Dc+v
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| User: "Robert Karl Stonjek" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
26 Sep 2005 05:51:01 PM |
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|
"jgreenfield@seol.net.au" <jgreen@seol.net.au> wrote in message
news:1127720214.998840.121510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
srp wrote:
"M D Meenken" <mdmeenken@wanadoo.nl> a écrit dans le message de news:
4333a1e9$0$81184$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
"srp" <srp@microtec.net> schreef in bericht
news:7XJYe.302431$on1.174625@clgrps13...
"Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message
de
news: iTFYe.10210$0E5.8725@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The closer we look, the more uniform the universe seems to be ie the
differences
between the present and early universe are ever less marked.
Presumably meaning that the universe is about the same age all over.
What about when we look back f.i. 16 or 17 billion years?
This is assuming that the theory of the Big Bang is more than a theory,
and also that the Hubble red shift can be explained only by the currently
accepted cause. Hubble himself expressed doubts in this regard.
Whenever inconsistencies come to light between observed reality and
theories, there seems little doubt in my mind that the theories need
suffer
a second look and come out the loser in any such encounter.
Presently, no one knows how the universe began.
Most likely:
The universe did not "begin"; it has ALWAYS existed in a perpetual
state of flux, with galaxies and all their constituents forming,
decaying, and changing throughout an infinity of TIME (NOT a
dimension!), and distance in three dimensions.
It is only the human brain (psyche), which, being unable to
compute/understand/accept the concept of 1/0, mark it as "undefined",
and feverishly search for magical theories of "beginnings" and
"expansions" to fill the void of their ignorance.
(Myself being of the former, but rejecting the latter)
Jim G
c'=c+v
There is one place where you can find 1/0 accepted in math. Any power of a
number can be expressed as the inverse of that power to the root of that
number eg X^2 (X squared) = 1/2root 2 and vice versa eg the square root of X
equals X^.5
When it comes to X^0, which we take to be one, the root is 1/0 ie if you
take the infinite root of any number you arrive at 1.
Hope this makes sense in text-only format.
Robert
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
26 Sep 2005 01:54:07 PM |
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wrote:
Most likely:
The universe did not "begin"; it has ALWAYS existed in a perpetual
state of flux, with galaxies and all their constituents forming,
decaying, and changing throughout an infinity of TIME (NOT a
dimension!), and distance in three dimensions.
It is only the human brain (psyche), which, being unable to
compute/understand/accept the concept of 1/0, mark it as "undefined",
and feverishly search for magical theories of "beginnings" and
"expansions" to fill the void of their ignorance.
(Myself being of the former, but rejecting the latter)
There is no infinity and no zero. Time is still a dimension [of length
or stint] as are space [of width or span] and force [of beck or load
(charge in French)], all finite yet indeterminate and chaotic.
-Aut
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
27 Sep 2005 04:41:23 AM |
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Autymn D. C. wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
Most likely:
The universe did not "begin"; it has ALWAYS existed in a perpetual
state of flux, with galaxies and all their constituents forming,
decaying, and changing throughout an infinity of TIME (NOT a
dimension!), and distance in three dimensions.
It is only the human brain (psyche), which, being unable to
compute/understand/accept the concept of 1/0, mark it as "undefined",
and feverishly search for magical theories of "beginnings" and
"expansions" to fill the void of their ignorance.
(Myself being of the former, but rejecting the latter)
There is no infinity and no zero. Time is still a dimension [of length
or stint] as are space [of width or span] and force [of beck or load
(charge in French)], all finite yet indeterminate and chaotic.
-Aut
So in a few lines, what was the position ref the universe's existence
and state 20Gya ago, and what would an observer see NOW at distance 20
billion light years?
Jim G
c'=c+v
(PS: It is not shamefull to admit the inability to get a "grasp" on
1/0)
.
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
16 Oct 2005 11:51:44 AM |
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wrote:
Autymn D. C. wrote:
wrote:
Most likely:
The universe did not "begin"; it has ALWAYS existed in a perpetual
state of flux, with galaxies and all their constituents forming,
decaying, and changing throughout an infinity of TIME (NOT a
dimension!), and distance in three dimensions.
It is only the human brain (psyche), which, being unable to
compute/understand/accept the concept of 1/0, mark it as "undefined",
and feverishly search for magical theories of "beginnings" and
"expansions" to fill the void of their ignorance.
(Myself being of the former, but rejecting the latter)
There is no infinity and no zero. Time is still a dimension [of length
or stint] as are space [of width or span] and force [of beck or load
(charge in French)], all finite yet indeterminate and chaotic.
So in a few lines, what was the position ref the universe's existence
and state 20Gya ago, and what would an observer see NOW at distance 20
billion light years?
Jim G
c'=c+v
(PS: It is not shamefull to admit the inability to get a "grasp" on
1/0)
shamefull -> shameful
Oh come on, when I was 12 or so I played with infinities and even
invented a Riemann-sferical infinity plot without even knowing that the
thing was; not much later I developed the metafinite number sustem,
discovering that infinity is the other pole of a finite tangential
mapping of multiples. But this is abstract maths; it has nothing to do
with concrete reality.
Our 20 GYA, the universe was where it was about 6 GYA. Before the big
bang, there was the universe. And the universe is finite:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.particle/browse_frm/thread/82523ee03dfaf85d/34e5cfe30376ab3f#34e5cfe30376ab3f
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.particle/browse_frm/thread/82523ee03dfaf85d/b6365b26703d0632#b6365b26703d0632
-Aut
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
17 Oct 2005 03:24:29 AM |
|
|
Autymn D. C. wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
Autymn D. C. wrote:
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
Most likely:
The universe did not "begin"; it has ALWAYS existed in a perpetual
state of flux, with galaxies and all their constituents forming,
decaying, and changing throughout an infinity of TIME (NOT a
dimension!), and distance in three dimensions.
It is only the human brain (psyche), which, being unable to
compute/understand/accept the concept of 1/0, mark it as "undefined",
and feverishly search for magical theories of "beginnings" and
"expansions" to fill the void of their ignorance.
(Myself being of the former, but rejecting the latter)
There is no infinity and no zero. Time is still a dimension [of length
or stint] as are space [of width or span] and force [of beck or load
(charge in French)], all finite yet indeterminate and chaotic.
So in a few lines, what was the position ref the universe's existence
and state 20Gya ago, and what would an observer see NOW at distance 20
billion light years?
Jim G
c'=c+v
(PS: It is not shamefull to admit the inability to get a "grasp" on
1/0)
shamefull -> shameful
Oh come on, when I was 12 or so I played with infinities and even
invented a Riemann-sferical infinity plot without even knowing that the
thing was; not much later I developed the metafinite number sustem,
discovering that infinity is the other pole of a finite tangential
mapping of multiples. But this is abstract maths; it has nothing to do
with concrete reality.
Anyone who even USES the term 'infinities' (plural), hasn't a rats
chance
of understanding ANY math referring to physics!!!!!!!!!!
(snip rest of mathonderland)
Jim G
c'=c+v
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion yearsback in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
27 Sep 2005 08:03:32 AM |
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wrote:
So in a few lines, what was the position ref the universe's existence
and state 20Gya ago, and what would an observer see NOW at distance 20
billion light years?
PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 624 February 13, 2003 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, James
Riordon
A PINPOINT PRECISION MAP of the cosmic microwave background, reported this
week at a press conference by scientists associated with the orbiting
Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), brings the early universe into
sharper focus. The credibility of WMAP's pronouncement rests on three
things: its angular resolution is some 40 times better than that of its
microwave predecessor, the Cosmic Background Explorer (COBE); it
comprehensively surveyed the entire sky for a whole year (3 more years of
data is yet to come); and it measures the polarization of the microwave
radiation; the orientation of the radiation arises partly from the last
scattering of light at the time of "recombination," when stable atoms
formed for the first time, and partly from the time when ultraviolet
radiation strewn by the first generation of stars ionized once again a lot
of atoms in space. Here are a few of the salient numbers coming out of the
WMAP analysis: the time of recombination was 380,000 years after the big
bang; the era of the first stars was about 200 million years along
(surprisingly early); the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years; and the
accounting of matter in the universe is as follows: atomic matter makes up
about 4%, dark matter about 23%, and dark energy 73%. (Websites:
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/;
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/2003/0206mapresults.html)
Ref: http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm#News
MAP Data Released!
11 Feb 2003 - The results from the first year of observing by the
Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe were announced today at a Space
Science Update in the auditorium of NASA HQ. Important results
include:
o The satellite has been renamed in honor of the late David T.
Wilkinson of Princeton University, a key member of the project from
its conception.
o The polarization of the microwave background anisotropy coming
from scattering by electrons 200 million years after the Big Bang
has been detected. This is evidence for an early generation of
stars existing 4 to 5 times earlier than any object yet observed.
o The WMAP data agree with previous work showing the Universe is
flat and in an accelerating expansion.
o The WMAP data give the most precise values for the density of
ordinary [baryonic] matter made of protons and neutrons and for the
dark matter: 0.4 and 2.5 yoctograms per cubic meter. These
correspond to omega_b = 0.0224 +/- 0.0009 and omega_m = 0.135 +/-
0.009.
o The WMAP data give the most precise value for the age of the
Universe: 13.7 +/- 0.2 Gyr. The Hubble constant is Ho = 71 +/- 4
km/sec/Mpc, and the vacuum energy density corresponds to lambda =
0.73 +/- 0.04. 13 papers by the science team and the maps and
power spectra are available by clicking on the image above.
See: http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm#News
Ref: http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2003/659.html
Physics News Update Update #659 (October 28, 2003)
A Map of the Universe
A map of the universe produced by the Sloan Digital Sky Survey contains
200,000 galaxies at distances of up to two billion light years, and
spread out across 2400 square degrees of sky. According to Sloan
astronomer Michael Blanton (NYU), this is "the best three-dimensional
map of the universe to date." The Sloan effort uses a telescope in New
Mexico optimized to record spectra from many galaxies at the same time.
One of the standout features of the map is the Sloan Great Wall of
galaxies, some 1.37 billion light years long and the "largest observed
structure in the universe" (preprint:astro-ph 0310/0310571) Combined
with data from other telescopes, such as the Wilkinson Microwave
Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), the new Sloan observations help tamp down
uncertainties in several pivotal astronomical numbers. The new best
value for the Hubble constant is 0.70 with an uncertainty of about
0.04; the amount of energy in the universe vested in matter is 30% with
an uncertainty of 4%; the upper limit on neutrino mass is 0.6 eV; and
the age of the universe is 14.1 billion years with an uncertainty of 1
billion (Preprint astro-ph/0310/0310723; visit Sloan website).
.
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| User: "Dr Nanduri" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
28 Sep 2005 06:43:44 AM |
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COSMOLOGY THROUGH VEDAS answers many of these questions. I have been
carefully following the arguments and present day Cosmology
discussions.
The basic approach has been outlined in my Papers-
COSMOS- Complex at Carnegie Symp 3, Jan 2003 and
UNIVERSE complex structure at STSCI-May 2003 Symposium. Subject goes
beyond Dark-matter and one can replace Black-Hole through EM Phenomena
and search existing data that fits in to this DIMENSIONAL KNOWLEDGE.
This helps Science and Philosophers as well. Any EAST WEST interaction
helps to sort out
most of these controversial arguments to set scientific goals with
vision and clear direction.The Time cycles mentioned in my books -
10^14 Years and 10^17 Years which are needed for further RESEARCH
Vidyardhi Nanduri
Cosmology for World Peace
See:Knowledge expansion and Key Words added recently
.
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| User: "Androcles Androcles@ MyPlace.org" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
28 Sep 2005 06:57:55 AM |
|
|
"Dr Nanduri" <nanduri_vn@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127907824.400168.10590@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| COSMOLOGY THROUGH VEDAS answers many of these questions. I have been
| carefully following the arguments and present day Cosmology
| discussions.
| The basic approach has been outlined in my Papers-
| COSMOS- Complex at Carnegie Symp 3, Jan 2003 and
| UNIVERSE complex structure at STSCI-May 2003 Symposium. Subject goes
| beyond Dark-matter and one can replace Black-Hole through EM Phenomena
| and search existing data that fits in to this DIMENSIONAL KNOWLEDGE.
| This helps Science and Philosophers as well. Any EAST WEST interaction
| helps to sort out
| most of these controversial arguments to set scientific goals with
| vision and clear direction.The Time cycles mentioned in my books -
| 10^14 Years and 10^17 Years which are needed for further RESEARCH
| Vidyardhi Nanduri
| Cosmology for World Peace
| See:Knowledge expansion and Key Words added recently
So nobody was interested in your paper and you want to peddle it here?
Androcles.
.
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|
|
| User: "Sam Wormley" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion yearsback in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
28 Sep 2005 08:57:32 AM |
|
|
Dr Nanduri wrote:
COSMOLOGY THROUGH VEDAS answers many of these questions. I have been
carefully following the arguments and present day Cosmology
discussions.
The basic approach has been outlined in my Papers-
COSMOS- Complex at Carnegie Symp 3, Jan 2003 and
UNIVERSE complex structure at STSCI-May 2003 Symposium. Subject goes
beyond Dark-matter and one can replace Black-Hole through EM Phenomena
and search existing data that fits in to this DIMENSIONAL KNOWLEDGE.
This helps Science and Philosophers as well. Any EAST WEST interaction
helps to sort out
most of these controversial arguments to set scientific goals with
vision and clear direction.The Time cycles mentioned in my books -
10^14 Years and 10^17 Years which are needed for further RESEARCH
The observable univers is certainly less than 1.5 x 10^10 years
old. The figures in your books are in error.
.
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|
| User: "Stevie B" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
26 Sep 2005 11:24:07 PM |
|
|
Infinity and zero are dangerous concepts. Do not use if pregnant or
lactating. Keep out of reach of children. Delusional meglomaniacs may
be adversely affected.
"I do not believe in snow!" cried the Dybbuk shortly before being
buried in an avalanche.
"Don't worry, I'll save you," said Bupkis as he started to dig into the
pile of snow that used to be the Dybbuk.
"Mphh-mphh-mnfo-knkshhhsh!" cried the Dybbuk from inside the pile of
snow.
"What? I can't understand you," Bupkis complained.
"The Dybbuk says that it doesn't believe in you either," supplied Eyn
Sof. "It says that there is no zero."
"No zero? What am I, then, chopped liver? If there's no zero, then
why is everyone on the Internet always arguing about who invented me?
By the way, who DID invent me?" asked Bupkis.
"I did, of course," replied Eyn Sof. "Here, I'll demonstrate..."
And with a snap of his fingers, the pile of snow and the Dybbuk
disappeared.
"Nice work," said Bupkis. "But can you do it again?"
Eyn Sof blinked his eyes and then Bupkis disappeared, leaving behind a
small plate of chopped liver and two tickets for the Broadway
production of "The King and I". Time travel would be required to
attend the performance, of course, but this is never a problem for one
without limits.
"Boat races," said Eyn Sof. "I like boat races."
Autymn D. C. wrote:
There is no infinity and no zero.
.
|
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|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
26 Sep 2005 11:40:43 PM |
|
|
http://www.rdegraaf.nl/index.asp?sND_ID=3D818996
***************
Achilles [a greek warrior, the fleetest of foot of all mortals] and a
Tortoise are standing together on a dusty runway in the hot sun. For
dawn the runway, on a tall flagpole, there hungs a large rectangular
flag. The flag is solid red, except where a thin ring-shaped hole has
been cut out of it, through which one can see the sky.
Achilles: What is that strange flag down at the other end of the track?
It reminds me somehow of a print by my favorite artist, M.C. Escher.
Tortoise: That is Zeno's flag.
Achilles: Could it be that the hole in it resembles the holes in a
M=F6bius strip Escher once drew? Something is wrong about that flag, I
can tell.
Tortoise: The ring has been cut from it has the shape of the numeral
for zero, which is Zeno's favorite number.
Achilles: But zero hasn't been invented yet! It will only be invented
by a Hindu mathematician some millenia hence. And thus, Mr. T., my
argument proves that such flag is impossible.
Tortoise: Your argument is persuasive, Achilles, and I must agree that
such a flag is indeed impossible. But it is beautiful anyway, is it
not?
Achilles: Oh, yes, there is no doubt of its beauty.
Tortoise: I wonder if its beauty is related to iits impossibility. I
don't know; I've never had the time to analyze Beauty. It's a
Capitalized Essence; and I never seem to have the time for Capitalized
Essences.
Achilles: Speaking of Capitalized Essences, Mr. T., have you ever
wondered about the Purpose of Life?
Tortoise: Oh, heavens, no.
Achilles: Haven't you wondered why we are here, or who invented us?
Tortoise: Oh, that is quite another matter. We are inventions of Zeno
[as you will shortly see]; and the reason we are here is to have a
footrace.
Achilles: A footrace? How outrageous! Me, the fleetest of foot of all
mortals, versus you, the ploddingest of all plodders! There can be no
point to such a race.
Tortoise: You might give me a head start.
Achilles: It would have to be a huge one.
Tortoise: I don't object.
Achilles: But I will catch you, sooner or later - most likely sooner.
Tortoise: Not if things go according to Zeno's paradox, you won't. Zeno
is hoping to use our footrace to show that motion is impossible, you
see. It is not only in the mind that motion seems impossible, according
to Zeno. In truth, Motion Is Inherently Impossible. He proves it quite
elegantly.
Achilles: Oh, yes, it comes back to me now: the famous Zen koan about
Zen Master Zeno. As you say, it is very simple indeed.
Tortoise: Zen koan? Zen Master? What do you mean?
Achilles: It goes like this: Two monks were arguing about a flag. One
said, "The flag is moving". The other said, "The wind is moving". The
sixth patriarch, Zeno, happened to be passing by. He told them, "Not
the wind, not the flag; the mind; mind is moving."
Tortoise: I am afraid you are a little befuddled, Achilles. Zeno is no
Zen master; far from it. He is, in fact, a Greek philosopher from the
town of Elea [which lies halfway between points A and B]. Centuries
hence, he will be celebrated for his paradoxes of motion. In one of
those paradoxes, this very footrace between you and me will play a
central role.
Achilles: I'm all confused. I remember vividly how I used to repeat
over and over the names of the six patriarchs of Zen, and I always
said, "The sixth patriarch is Zeno, the sixth patriarch is Zeno..."
CURS [Suddenly a soft warm breeze picks up.*CURS Oh, look, Mr. Tortoise
- look at the flag waving! How I love to watch the ripples shimmer
through its soft fabric. And the ring cut out of it is waving, too!
Tortoise: Don't be silly. The flag is impossible, hence it can't be
waving. The wind is waving.
[At this point, Zeno happens by]
Zeno: Hallo! Hulloo! What's up? What's new?
Achilles: The flag is moving.
Tortoise: The wind is moving.
Zeno: O Friends, Friends! Cease your argumentation! Arrest your
vitriolics! Abandon your discord! For I shall resolve the issue for you
forthwith. Ho! And on such a fine day!
Achilles: This fellow must be playing the fool.
Tortoise: No, wait, Achilles. Let us hear what he has to say. Oh,
Unknown Sir, do impart to us your thoughts on this matter.
Zeno: Most willingly. Not the wind, not the flag - neither one is
moving, nor is anything moving at all. For I have discovered a great
Theorem, which states: "Motion Is Inherently Impossible." Andfrom this
Theorem follows an even greater Theorem - Zeno's Theorem: "Motion
Unexists."
Achilles: "Zeno's Theorem"? Are you, sir, by any chance, the
philosopher Zeno of Elea?
Zeno: I am indeed, Achilles.
Achilles [scratching his head in puzzlement]: Now how did he know my
name?
Zeno: Could I possibly persuade you two to hear me out as to why this
is the case? I've come all the way to Elea from point A this afternoon,
just trying to find someone who?ll pay some attention to my closely
honed argument. But they're all hurrying hither and thither, and they
don't have time. You've no idea how disheartening it is to meet with
refusal like to ask one thing: Would the two of you humor a silly old
philosopher for a few moments - only a few, I promise you - in this
excentric theories?
Achilles: Oh, by all means! Please do illuminate us! I know I speak for
both of us, since my companion, Mr. Tortoise, was only moments ago
speaking of you with great veneration - and he mentioned especially
your paradoxes.
Zeno: Thank you. You see, my Master, the fifth patriarch, taught me
that reality is one, immutable, and unchanging; all plurality, change,
and motion are mere illusions of the senses. Some have mocked his
views; but I will show the absuridty of their mockery. My argument is
quite simple. I will illustrate it with two characters of my own
Invention: Achilles [a greek warrior, the fleetest of foot of all
mortals] and a Tortoise. In my tale, they are persuaded by a passerby
to run a footrace down a runway towards a distant flag waving in the
breeze. Let us assume that, since the Tortoise is a much slower runner,
he gets a head start of, say, ten rods. Now the race begins. In a few
bounds, Achilles has reached the spot where the Tortoise started.
Achilles: Hah!
Zeno: And now the Tortoise is but a single rod ahead of Achilles.
Within only a moment, Achilles has attained the spot.
Achilles: Ho ho!
Zeno: Yes, in that short moment, the Tortoise has managed to advance a
slight amount. In a flash, Achilles covers that distance too.
Tortoise: Heh heh heh heh!
Achilles: Hmm... hmm... hmm... hmm... hmm... That argument sounds wrong
to me. And yet, I can't quite make out what's wrong with it.
Zeno: Isn't it a teaser? it=B4s my favorite paradox.
Tortoise: Excuse me, Zeno, but I believe your tale illustrates the
wrong principle, does it not? You have just told us what will come to
be known, centuries hence, as Zeno's "Achilles paradox", which shows
[ahem!] that Achilles will never catch the Tortoise; but the proof that
Motion Is Inherently Impossible [and thence that Motion Unexists] is
your "dichotomy paradox", isn't it so?
Zeno: Oh, shame on me. Of course, you're right. That's the one about
how, in getting from A to B, one has to go halfway first - and of that
stretch one also has to go halfway, and so on and so forth. But you
see, both those paradoxes really have the same flavor. Frankly, I've
only had one Great Idea - I just exploit it in different ways.
Achilles: I swear, these arguments contain a flaw. I don't quite see
where, but they cannont be correct.
Zeno: You doubt the validity of my paradox? Why not just try it out?
You see that red flag down there, at the far end of the runway?
Achilles: The impossible one, based on an Escher print?
Zeno: Exacly. What to you say to ou and Mr. Tortoise racing for it,
allowing Mr. T a fair head start of, well, I don't know-
Tortoise: How about ten rods?
Zeno: Very good - ten rods.
Achilles: Any time.
Zeno: Excellent! How exciting! An empirical test of my rigorously
proven Theorem! Mr. Tortoise will you position yourself ten rods
upwind?
[The Tortoise moves ten rods clser to the flag.]
Zeno: Are you both ready?
Tortoise and Achilles: Ready!
Zeno: On your mark! Get set! Go!.
*********
From Godel , Escher, Bach, pp 29-32, the noble Douglas R. Hofstadter
presiding.
How about this: our local Universe goes out to the causal horizon,
where the Hubble recessional velocity =3D c. But the Global Universe
lies beyond that. Wherever you travel in the Global Univserse you see
a local Universe, which looks like ours, with a causal horizon and
stuff like that. So since we are but a subsystem within a system there
is no need for a Big Bang. The whole shebang has the property of
apparent expansion for one's local Universe. Or maybe not. Who cares?
I just work here. Darlene, I get off at 5 - be home this time.
- Don
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
27 Sep 2005 04:36:51 AM |
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wrote:
http://www.rdegraaf.nl/index.asp?sND_ID=818996
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line, have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
Cheerio
Jim G
c'=c+v
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion yearsback in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
27 Sep 2005 08:01:32 AM |
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wrote:
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line, have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
Möbius Strip is a one dimentional surface.
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| User: "Robert Karl Stonjek" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
27 Sep 2005 08:53:49 AM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:Mob_e.370990$_o.352873@attbi_s71...
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line, have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
Möbius Strip is a one dimentional surface.
Möbius Strip can only exist in three dimensional space, and so any Möbius
Strip must also be three dimensional, though it has a one dimensional
surface assuming a zero thickness, which makes it a math/geometry
theoretical object having no equivalent in the real world as zero thickness
means no substance ie it would be invisible and undetectable.
New sobriety test: - fill a Klein bottle to the 'top' and drink the
'contents'....
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| User: "Ben Rudiak-Gould" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion yearsback in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
27 Sep 2005 08:51:29 PM |
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Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:
New sobriety test: - fill a Klein bottle to the 'top' and drink the
'contents'....
http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm
-- Ben
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| User: "AJ" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion yearsback in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
29 Sep 2005 07:09:30 PM |
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Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote:
http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm
That is great. :-)
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
28 Sep 2005 09:22:07 AM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:Mob_e.370990$_o.352873@attbi_s71...
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line, have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
Möbius Strip is a one dimentional surface.
Two numbers are sufficient to locate a point on the
strip, so it is two-dimensional by definition.
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion yearsback in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
29 Sep 2005 09:05:43 AM |
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Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:Mob_e.370990$_o.352873@attbi_s71...
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line, have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
Möbius Strip is a one dimentional surface.
Two numbers are sufficient to locate a point on the
strip, so it is two-dimensional by definition.
Dirk Vdm
Since I can't reproduce my reference and given the obvious
two-dimensionality of a surface, I'm going to have to withdraw
my posting that a Möbius Strip is a one dimensional surface.
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
29 Sep 2005 11:08:45 AM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:XwS_e.374853$x96.67194@attbi_s72...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:Mob_e.370990$_o.352873@attbi_s71...
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line, have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
Möbius Strip is a one dimentional surface.
Two numbers are sufficient to locate a point on the
strip, so it is two-dimensional by definition.
Dirk Vdm
Since I can't reproduce my reference and given the obvious
two-dimensionality of a surface, I'm going to have to withdraw
my posting that a Möbius Strip is a one dimensional surface.
Perhaps you confused with a Mobius Thread ;-)
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "Fendetestas" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
29 Sep 2005 11:33:11 AM |
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"Dirk Van de moortel"
<dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> dixit
(news:hkU_e.7888$L11.419882@phobos.telenet-ops.be):
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:XwS_e.374853$x96.67194@attbi_s72...
Since I can't reproduce my reference and given the obvious
two-dimensionality of a surface, I'm going to have to
withdraw my posting that a Möbius Strip is a one dimensional
surface.
Perhaps you confused with a Mobius Thread ;-)
Dirk Vdm
No doubt he meant 'one-sided surface', which it is.
--
Fendetestas
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
29 Sep 2005 11:36:44 AM |
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"Fendetestas" <devolver@remitente.ya> wrote in message news:Xns96E0BCBA1F27Cfendetestastelefonic@213.4.130.20...
"Dirk Van de moortel"
<dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> dixit
(news:hkU_e.7888$L11.419882@phobos.telenet-ops.be):
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:XwS_e.374853$x96.67194@attbi_s72...
Since I can't reproduce my reference and given the obvious
two-dimensionality of a surface, I'm going to have to
withdraw my posting that a Möbius Strip is a one dimensional
surface.
Perhaps you confused with a Mobius Thread ;-)
Dirk Vdm
No doubt he meant 'one-sided surface', which it is.
Yes, I think that has been cleared up by now...
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion yearsback in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
29 Sep 2005 11:25:17 AM |
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Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:XwS_e.374853$x96.67194@attbi_s72...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:Mob_e.370990$_o.352873@attbi_s71...
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line, have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
Möbius Strip is a one dimentional surface.
Two numbers are sufficient to locate a point on the
strip, so it is two-dimensional by definition.
Dirk Vdm
Since I can't reproduce my reference and given the obvious
two-dimensionality of a surface, I'm going to have to withdraw
my posting that a Möbius Strip is a one dimensional surface.
Perhaps you confused with a Mobius Thread ;-)
Dirk Vdm
I don't get "that" confused--I could have sworn the reference I
was looking at was from mathworld... and found it curious that
it said "a Möbius Strip is a one dimensional surface"...
Well what's done is done and I can not find my original ref.
:-0
.
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
29 Sep 2005 11:30:47 AM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:NzU_e.376732$_o.174199@attbi_s71...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:XwS_e.374853$x96.67194@attbi_s72...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:Mob_e.370990$_o.352873@attbi_s71...
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line, have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
Möbius Strip is a one dimentional surface.
Two numbers are sufficient to locate a point on the
strip, so it is two-dimensional by definition.
Dirk Vdm
Since I can't reproduce my reference and given the obvious
two-dimensionality of a surface, I'm going to have to withdraw
my posting that a Möbius Strip is a one dimensional surface.
Perhaps you confused with a Mobius Thread ;-)
Dirk Vdm
I don't get "that" confused--I could have sworn the reference I
was looking at was from mathworld... and found it curious that
it said "a Möbius Strip is a one dimensional surface"...
Well what's done is done and I can not find my original ref.
:-0
Mathworld does have quite a few errors of course.
But perhaps you read that it is a *one-sided* surface...
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
02 Oct 2005 10:44:54 PM |
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Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:NzU_e.376732$_o=
..174199@attbi_s71...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:XwS_e.37485=
3$x96.67194@attbi_s72...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:Mob_e.3709=
90$_o.352873@attbi_s71...
jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
How sad, that idiots who can't see that a mobius strip is THREE
dimensional, or that to win a race, one runs PAST the finish line,=
have
wasted so many hours of human intellect!
M=F6bius Strip is a one dimentional surface.
Two numbers are sufficient to locate a point on the
strip, so it is two-dimensional by definition.
Dirk Vdm
Since I can't reproduce my reference and given the obvious
two-dimensionality of a surface, I'm going to have to withdraw
my posting that a M=F6bius Strip is a one dimensional surface.
Perhaps you confused with a Mobius Thread ;-)
Dirk Vdm
I don't get "that" confused--I could have sworn the reference I
was looking at was from mathworld... and found it curious that
it said "a M=F6bius Strip is a one dimensional surface"...
Well what's done is done and I can not find my original ref.
:-0
Mathworld does have quite a few errors of course.
But perhaps you read that it is a *one-sided* surface...
That would be handy! Approached from the other side, the strip doesn't
exist.
Or is the Mobius Strip (+1) on the "one side", and (-1) on the other?
lol
Jim G
c'=3Dc+v
=20
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
02 Oct 2005 11:56:13 PM |
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"I see the word "mu"."
"I see the word "reductionism"."
"Mu."
"Reductionism"
"Oh, let's all the whole thing off."
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Article: A large population of galaxies 9 to 12 billion years back in the history of the Universe (HTML) |
03 Oct 2005 11:12:36 AM |
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"jgreenfield@seol.net.au" <jgreen@seol.net.au> wrote in message news:1128311093.978498.292970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dirk Van de moortel wrote:
[snip]
Mathworld does have quite a few errors of course.
But perhaps you read that it is a *one-sided* surface...
That would be handy! Approached from the other side, the strip doesn't
exist.
Or is the Mobius Strip (+1) on the "one side", and (-1) on the other?
What "other" side?
Put your finger anywhere on the strip, and move it along
it, without lifting your finger and without passing the edge.
What you will experience is called, by us regular people,
"walking on a one-sided two-dimensional surface",
whether you like it or not.
Actually, the fact that it makes you sick, is a plus.
lol
Yes, we already know the sound of your madness
Dirk Vdm
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