| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
08 Aug 2005 02:47:19 PM |
| Object: |
attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
Every now and then somebody expalains electromagnetic forces as
"exchanges of virtual photons". My question is simple: how can this
be, for the case of attractive forces?
For example, let's take an electron and a positron. If the electron
emits a photon in the direction away from the positron, this will give
it momentum toward the positron. However, this is not an exchange of
particles but a net emission of them. If the emitted particles go
towards the other particle (an exchange), this will be a net repulsion.
Some have answered that the exchanged particles have a "negative
momentum" - supposedly a momentum directed oppositely to the velocity
vector! This sounds completely crazy. Others have answered that the
analogy of force-carrying particles is a mathematical one and the
Feynman diagram reasoning involved in my question is simply misplaced.
Is there a better answer?
Thanks!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
15 Aug 2005 02:16:34 PM |
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PD wrote:
Magnets and light bulbs have much different field configurations, which
means different Feynman diagrams contribute to the interactions.
Whether light bulbs attract or repel depends on the relative
orientation of the filaments!
I'm not sure why you think a static magnet has a *net* radiation
outward.
So you agree that light bulbs should attract/repel if oriented
correctly. OK, you should have some experimental data to back that up.
Have you heard of any such evidence. I would like to hear about any
experiment in which you can show a force can be generated between 2
photon emitters. This is the core of my question which you continue to
evade. Show me the experimental evidence!! If there is none, then why
do we believe this is correct?
A static magnet should have a net radiation outwards due to the way we
perceive how exchange particles work. Since there is always a net
attraction between 2 magnets which are near by, there must be exchange
particles being emittted as a net outward radiation from both magnets
that allows the magnets to interact. If there were not outward
radiation, I would expect, there would be no attraction. Is this not
correct?
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
15 Aug 2005 02:25:43 PM |
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wrote:
PD wrote:
Magnets and light bulbs have much different field configurations, which
means different Feynman diagrams contribute to the interactions.
Whether light bulbs attract or repel depends on the relative
orientation of the filaments!
I'm not sure why you think a static magnet has a *net* radiation
outward.
So you agree that light bulbs should attract/repel if oriented
correctly. OK, you should have some experimental data to back that up.
Have you heard of any such evidence. I would like to hear about any
experiment in which you can show a force can be generated between 2
photon emitters.
Google "radiation pressure". Hell, some folks at NASA are proposing
spacecraft that are propelled by the pressure of photons against a
solar sail.
Google "definition of ampere". The unit of current is defined by the
force that two of them exert on each other.
This is the core of my question which you continue to
evade. Show me the experimental evidence!! If there is none, then why
do we believe this is correct?
A static magnet should have a net radiation outwards due to the way we
perceive how exchange particles work. Since there is always a net
attraction between 2 magnets which are near by, there must be exchange
particles being emittted as a net outward radiation from both magnets
that allows the magnets to interact. If there were not outward
radiation, I would expect, there would be no attraction. Is this not
correct?
Hint: Newton's 3rd law says that there are always two parties to an
interaction. Does there have to be a *net* outward radiation from one
magnet when the 2nd magnet is far away? Why?
PD
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
16 Aug 2005 12:21:15 AM |
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PD wrote:
Google "radiation pressure". Hell, some folks at NASA are proposing
spacecraft that are propelled by the pressure of photons against a
solar sail.
This shows that it is possible for a repusion effect to be possible.
OK, that is half of an answer, but the really intereresting part is the
notion that this can produce an attractive force as well. We can easily
understand the repulsion effect like photon balls bouncing against each
other and othe objects causing a pushing effect, but we cannot see how
such an effect could lead to an attracting force. So do you have any
support for photon emitters attracting?
Google "definition of ampere". The unit of current is defined by the
force that two of them exert on each other.
This doesn't answer the question because this is the same as in the
magnetic case where the wires carrying amps causing the attraction
apparently do not emit any detectible photons. We see the electrostatic
and magnetic forces, but not any photons which are theoretically
creating these forces.
Hint: Newton's 3rd law says that there are always two parties to an
interaction. Does there have to be a *net* outward radiation from one
magnet when the 2nd magnet is far away? Why?
I don't know what point you are making about *net* flow. The number of
photons flowing in could be as many as are going out. If they are
opposite phases, then it might be difficult to detect photons if they
are all being cancelled out. But any sufficiently separated magnet
should have an unbalanced field with a net outward flow. It must always
be flowing because one magnet doesn't know when it will meet up with
another magnet, so it must be prepared for any interaction by
constantly spewing out photons. So once again, can you experimentally
show that a static magnet emits photons? I largely suspect there is no
experimental evidence whatsoever, which should have been a death
sentence for QED. So prove me wrong - where's the evidence? QED is so
well accepted that there must be some major experiment conclusively
showing that the photons of ordinary light are the same as the photons
of the exchange force. If you can't do that, then QED is science
fiction instead of science fact. Theory must be backed up with
predictions and experiment.
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
16 Aug 2005 09:22:12 AM |
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wrote:
PD wrote:
Google "radiation pressure". Hell, some folks at NASA are proposing
spacecraft that are propelled by the pressure of photons against a
solar sail.
This shows that it is possible for a repusion effect to be possible.
OK, that is half of an answer, but the really intereresting part is the
notion that this can produce an attractive force as well. We can easily
understand the repulsion effect like photon balls bouncing against each
other and othe objects causing a pushing effect, but we cannot see how
such an effect could lead to an attracting force. So do you have any
support for photon emitters attracting?
Google "definition of ampere". The unit of current is defined by the
force that two of them exert on each other.
This doesn't answer the question because this is the same as in the
magnetic case where the wires carrying amps causing the attraction
apparently do not emit any detectible photons. We see the electrostatic
and magnetic forces, but not any photons which are theoretically
creating these forces.
OK, here's a little experiment. After verifying that two DC currents in
opposite directions cause attraction, then oscillate the two currents
(now AC) so that they continue to be out of phase (always flowing in
opposite direction) and verify that that the attraction persists. Now
stop driving current in the second wire and notice that a current is
induced in the second wire, and by introducing a sudden "chirp" in the
current in the first wire verify that the signal is picked up in the
second wire after a delay consistent with propagation at the speed of
light. (Indeed, this setup is a radio.) Now ask yourself what has
changed about the first wire and how it interacts with the outside
world by turning off the driving current in wire 2.
Hint: Newton's 3rd law says that there are always two parties to an
interaction. Does there have to be a *net* outward radiation from one
magnet when the 2nd magnet is far away? Why?
I don't know what point you are making about *net* flow. The number of
photons flowing in could be as many as are going out. If they are
opposite phases, then it might be difficult to detect photons if they
are all being cancelled out. But any sufficiently separated magnet
should have an unbalanced field with a net outward flow. It must always
be flowing because one magnet doesn't know when it will meet up with
another magnet, so it must be prepared
Why? Why isn't the interaction *generated* by the presence of both
partners in the interaction?
If I go shopping, do I need to spew dollar bills in all directions to
be prepared for a seller who wants to pick them up?
for any interaction by
constantly spewing out photons. So once again, can you experimentally
show that a static magnet emits photons? I largely suspect there is no
experimental evidence whatsoever, which should have been a death
sentence for QED. So prove me wrong - where's the evidence? QED is so
well accepted that there must be some major experiment conclusively
showing that the photons of ordinary light are the same as the photons
of the exchange force. If you can't do that, then QED is science
fiction instead of science fact. Theory must be backed up with
predictions and experiment.
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| User: "Y.Porat" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
16 Aug 2005 12:36:44 AM |
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see the metaphor of two people standing back to back
and throwing boomerangs -- that is attraction
if they stand face to face and throw boomerangs .... that is
repulsion!!
nice metaphor ??
ATB
Y.Porat
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
15 Aug 2005 06:46:26 PM |
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Photons dont have te mass the electrons nuetrons and protons do .
All the magnets orbits match .
If a wave fits or pushes the orbits its attraction.
If the orbit colides with the orbit and the partical must change
directions then repulsion .
Clascal physics is not up for grabs by morons that refuse to understand
the standard modle and must invent thier way to it not.
99 % of physic is *****.
1 % might understand if held down and drilled . The rest can compute
rocket data and cannon balls and light bulbs .
They talk about simple ***** they dont understand wile thumbing the
noise up at the standard modles.
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| User: "John Sefton" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
12 Aug 2005 01:13:34 PM |
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PD wrote:
franklinhu@yahoo.com wrote:
If there is a wide band of frequencies which represent the exchange
photons, then they should be measureable. You should be able to shield
or account for all external electromagnetic radiation around a magnet.
You should then be able to directly measure the remaining exchange
photons coming out of the magnet - which brings me back to my original
question of whether this has ever been experimentally been shown to be
true. Certainly, this seems to be something which is within our
experimental grasp. However, even if you did measure the exact
frequency of the exchange photon, and it is no different from photons
emitted by other processes, they why is it that 2 light bulbs don't
attract? They send out photons in a wide band of frequencies - what
could possibly be the difference?
Magnets and light bulbs have much different field configurations, which
means different Feynman diagrams contribute to the interactions.
Whether light bulbs attract or repel depends on the relative
orientation of the filaments!
I'm not sure why you think a static magnet has a *net* radiation
outward.
PD
different Feynman diagrams contribute to the interactions.
virtual photon
exchange photon
blue fairy
Yup, I think you got it.
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| User: "PD" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
12 Aug 2005 01:48:25 PM |
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John Sefton wrote:
PD wrote:
franklinhu@yahoo.com wrote:
If there is a wide band of frequencies which represent the exchange
photons, then they should be measureable. You should be able to shield
or account for all external electromagnetic radiation around a magnet.
You should then be able to directly measure the remaining exchange
photons coming out of the magnet - which brings me back to my original
question of whether this has ever been experimentally been shown to be
true. Certainly, this seems to be something which is within our
experimental grasp. However, even if you did measure the exact
frequency of the exchange photon, and it is no different from photons
emitted by other processes, they why is it that 2 light bulbs don't
attract? They send out photons in a wide band of frequencies - what
could possibly be the difference?
Magnets and light bulbs have much different field configurations, which
means different Feynman diagrams contribute to the interactions.
Whether light bulbs attract or repel depends on the relative
orientation of the filaments!
I'm not sure why you think a static magnet has a *net* radiation
outward.
PD
different Feynman diagrams contribute to the interactions.
virtual photon
exchange photon
blue fairy
Yup, I think you got it.
Little spinning balls in 3D.
Pretty pictures.
No quantifiable predictions.
"If I can weld it, it must be right."
Much better.
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| User: "Y.Porat" |
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| Title: Re: attractive force via particle exchange - how? |
12 Aug 2005 12:58:23 AM |
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The notion that photons are mediating the attraction force
is ...... if to put it mildly ...... idiotic!!
because photons move in stright lines right??
so there is nothing to hold them i a small
confind volume forever!!
now you might say:
what holds them confined is a .......
field that is made by photons.........
in such a case i give up
because i cant argue and compete with mathematical stupidity.
ATB
Y.Porat
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: attractive slope exchange - how? |
12 Aug 2005 08:50:36 AM |
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Motion is the changed paths of all the orbiting parts.
Gain in mass is an oliptical orbit as 1/2 the atom lost and 1/2 the
atom gained mass per time unit.
The orbit time and the wave may result in the electron climbing the
wave going boath ways around its orbit ,,or gettng a push boath ways in
its orbit . Thus changing the shape of the orbit.
Change the shpe of the orbit is change in the center of gravity of
that atom.
The atom pushes its self.
ONLY the atom MOVES its self.
You can only afect the orbit paths ..then the changed center of G does
the moving.
Space is energy under presure and mass is a low pit .
mass in motion takes up more space per time unit
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| User: "T Wake" |
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| Title: Re: attractive slope exchange - how? |
12 Aug 2005 11:14:25 AM |
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"tj Frazir" <GravityPhysics@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8620-42FCA92C-107@storefull-3214.bay.webtv.net...
Gibberish
Shut up idiot.
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