| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Bruce W.1" |
| Date: |
20 Jun 2005 08:22:43 PM |
| Object: |
Best water wicking material? |
What's the best material to transport water by wicking?
I hung a cotton rope into a glass of water. The water only seems to get
about 4" up the rope from the water line. I haven't tried paper towels yet.
Is there a definitive winner in this category? What material has the
strongest wicking ability?
Thanks for your help.
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| User: "Richard Henry" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
21 Jun 2005 02:28:05 AM |
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"Bruce W.1" <sorry@noDirectEmail.com> wrote in message
news:DZJte.632$co6.327@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
What's the best material to transport water by wicking?
I would guess redwood.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
21 Jun 2005 12:17:47 PM |
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"Bruce W.1" wrote:
What's the best material to transport water by wicking?
I hung a cotton rope into a glass of water. The water only seems to get
about 4" up the rope from the water line. I haven't tried paper towels yet.
Is there a definitive winner in this category? What material has the
strongest wicking ability?
Thanks for your help.
Do you want kinetics or thermodyanamics? The highest spontaneous
capillary rise at equilibrium will be generated by the smallest
continuous pore (down to molecular gaps) with the smallest possible
wetting contact angle. Look up the expression for capillary force at a
hemispherical interface.
Your real world example is limited by evaporation. If you want a very
high capillary rise, flame pull a very fine (e.g, 20 microns
diameter) Pyrex capillary. Cut the air end exactly square. Pump
through a bit of KOH/ethanol, let it sit for an hour, then pump
through distilled water to wash... and always keep it filled with
water thereafter.
Or use porous glass (Vycor leached pre-form). Give it a few months
for capillary rise to equilibrate at 100% relative humidity.
Whe you do the experiment, to save time, let the vertical filled
capillary column fall from the top into its reservoir-immersed end,
not the empty column rise from the bottom.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "Bruce W.1" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
21 Jun 2005 09:05:16 PM |
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Uncle Al wrote:
Do you want kinetics or thermodyanamics? The highest spontaneous
capillary rise at equilibrium will be generated by the smallest
continuous pore (down to molecular gaps) with the smallest possible
wetting contact angle. Look up the expression for capillary force at a
hemispherical interface.
Your real world example is limited by evaporation. If you want a very
high capillary rise, flame pull a very fine (e.g, 20 microns
diameter) Pyrex capillary. Cut the air end exactly square. Pump
through a bit of KOH/ethanol, let it sit for an hour, then pump
through distilled water to wash... and always keep it filled with
water thereafter.
Or use porous glass (Vycor leached pre-form). Give it a few months
for capillary rise to equilibrate at 100% relative humidity.
Whe you do the experiment, to save time, let the vertical filled
capillary column fall from the top into its reservoir-immersed end,
not the empty column rise from the bottom.
===========================================
Geeze, you guys make it so complicated. I was looking for an answer
like use foam rubber instead of cotton.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 10:30:19 AM |
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"Bruce W.1" wrote:
Uncle Al wrote:
Do you want kinetics or thermodyanamics? The highest spontaneous
capillary rise at equilibrium will be generated by the smallest
continuous pore (down to molecular gaps) with the smallest possible
wetting contact angle. Look up the expression for capillary force at a
hemispherical interface.
Your real world example is limited by evaporation. If you want a very
high capillary rise, flame pull a very fine (e.g, 20 microns
diameter) Pyrex capillary. Cut the air end exactly square. Pump
through a bit of KOH/ethanol, let it sit for an hour, then pump
through distilled water to wash... and always keep it filled with
water thereafter.
Or use porous glass (Vycor leached pre-form). Give it a few months
for capillary rise to equilibrate at 100% relative humidity.
Whe you do the experiment, to save time, let the vertical filled
capillary column fall from the top into its reservoir-immersed end,
not the empty column rise from the bottom.
===========================================
Geeze, you guys make it so complicated. I was looking for an answer
like use foam rubber instead of cotton.
Cotton.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
20 Jun 2005 11:29:25 PM |
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Bruce W.1 wrote:
What's the best material to transport water by wicking?
I hung a cotton rope into a glass of water. The water only seems to get
about 4" up the rope from the water line. I haven't tried paper towels
yet.
Is there a definitive winner in this category? What material has the
strongest wicking ability?
Thanks for your help.
My wife, by accident, left the water dripping in the bathtub and the
tip of our fractal towel touching the water got heavier and heavier until
the floor caved in and that bathroom fell into the basement. That's when
we got rid of the thing.
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| User: "Jan Panteltje" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
21 Jun 2005 05:34:40 AM |
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On a sunny day (Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:29:25 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley
<swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in <FIMte.72647$x96.1118@attbi_s72>:
Bruce W.1 wrote:
What's the best material to transport water by wicking?
I hung a cotton rope into a glass of water. The water only seems to get
about 4" up the rope from the water line. I haven't tried paper towels
yet.
Is there a definitive winner in this category? What material has the
strongest wicking ability?
Thanks for your help.
My wife, by accident, left the water dripping in the bathtub and the
tip of our fractal towel touching the water got heavier and heavier until
the floor caved in and that bathroom fell into the basement. That's when
we got rid of the thing.
We will have to revise our truth rating for your posts accordingly.
Why would anyone get rid of the basement?
It is a useful place to store bathrooms for example.
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| User: "Dr Al E. Cat" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 04:29:49 AM |
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On a sunny day (Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:29:25 GMT) it happened Sam Wormley
<swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in <FIMte.72647$x96.1118@attbi_s72>:
By: Dr. Al E. Cat university bakali
Must say Sam, first gravity waves, and now this....
Did you have that brain scan?
And the math is not correct either.
Given a ever doubling structure fineness you get 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 ....
so no infinite amount of water soaked in.
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
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| User: "Bruce W.1" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
20 Jun 2005 11:38:25 PM |
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Sam Wormley wrote:
My wife, by accident, left the water dripping in the bathtub and the
tip of our fractal towel touching the water got heavier and heavier until
the floor caved in and that bathroom fell into the basement. That's when
we got rid of the thing.
=====================================================
Fractal towel? What is this? The only usage of the term fractal, with
which I'm familiar, has to to do with computer graphic patterns.
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
20 Jun 2005 11:54:22 PM |
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Bruce W.1 wrote:
Sam Wormley wrote:
My wife, by accident, left the water dripping in the bathtub and the
tip of our fractal towel touching the water got heavier and heavier until
the floor caved in and that bathroom fell into the basement. That's when
we got rid of the thing.
=====================================================
Fractal towel? What is this? The only usage of the term fractal, with
which I'm familiar, has to to do with computer graphic patterns.
Oops, I forgot the obligatory ;-)
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
21 Jun 2005 08:30:34 AM |
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How do you measure 'best'?
Presumably you want to do this without external power.
If it is altitude you want, and you are very patient, I would suggest
living wood. California Redwood trees can lift water over 100 meters
vertically - after a few thousand years.
If it is speed you want I suggest a syphon. While limited to a height
equal to the ambient air pressure divided by the density of the water
(usually about 10 m) you can get a pretty good flow going through a
3/4-inch piece of standard pipe.
Google "wicking height"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&biw=985&q=%22wicking+height%22&btnG=Search
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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| User: "The Ghost In The Machine" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
21 Jun 2005 12:00:05 AM |
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In sci.physics, Bruce W.1
<sorry@noDirectEmail.com>
wrote
on Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:22:43 GMT
<DZJte.632$co6.327@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>:
What's the best material to transport water by wicking?
I hung a cotton rope into a glass of water. The water only seems to get
about 4" up the rope from the water line. I haven't tried paper towels yet.
Is there a definitive winner in this category? What material has the
strongest wicking ability?
Thanks for your help.
You might try a World Wide Web water wicking wiki. :-)
(And with my luck there is just such a water
wicking wiki wandering winsomely within the World
Wide Web...)
Failing that, I should point out that AFAIK capillary
action can't really do all that much mechanical work.
The wicking is done via surface adhesion but once the
water runs out of surface to adhere to, it stops rising.
This means that a capillary tube won't drip, for example,
although the surface might evaporate, which might be used
as the basis for a rather strange heat engine.
Of course for most capillary tubes there's not all that
much surface to evaporate unless one has a lot of tubes.
One way I can think of to explain the water wicking
is that a curved meniscus has less energy than a straight
one, if the water adheres.
--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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| User: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 09:23:45 AM |
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Hi Sam A red Wood tree has to be one of natures great wickers. Is
wickers a new name for capillary action? I have always put the
continually nodding bird right up there with showing perpetual motion.
Could we count in capillary action as another up force? Bert
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| User: "Michael Moroney" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 10:59:11 AM |
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(G=EMC^2 Glazier) writes:
Hi Sam A red Wood tree has to be one of natures great wickers.
How does the redwood get all that water up there to grow more redwood
tree?
wickers a new name for capillary action? I have always put the
continually nodding bird right up there with showing perpetual motion.
The bobbing bird is really a heat engine, working on the temp. difference
between the room temp and the beak's temp, which is cooler because of
evaporation of water from the beak. When the water in the glass is used
up due to evaporation, the bird will stop.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 11:25:32 AM |
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Michael Moroney wrote:
herbertglazier@webtv.net (G=EMC^2 Glazier) writes:
Hi Sam A red Wood tree has to be one of natures great wickers.
How does the redwood get all that water up there to grow more redwood
tree?
Tensile strength of flawless water in small channels. The pull is via
passive capillary action plus transpiration actively pulling at the
top.
[snip]
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "Michael Moroney" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 12:14:59 PM |
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Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> writes:
How does the redwood get all that water up there to grow more redwood
tree?
Tensile strength of flawless water in small channels. The pull is via
passive capillary action plus transpiration actively pulling at the
top.
Interesting. The active pulling is good for only 30' so the passive
capillary action must do the rest. What actually does the pumping (mgh)
up there? Again the suction is good for 30' of pumping Once you have the
capillary tubes full where does the rest of the pumping energy come from
to give the continuous supply the treetop demands? A capillary tube by
itself can't make a fountain, for example. Is there a theoretical limit
to how long capillary tubes of "flawless" water can be?
"Flawless" water is an interesting concept. I take it the minerals in
the water aren't "flaws"?
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| User: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 05:53:28 PM |
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Hi Uncle Al I wonder if the pressure at the bottom of a red wood tree
being greater than on its top might help push the water up the tubes??
What do you think? Still alive bert PS I eat red wood saw dust,and it
comes from the great General Sherman tree. Nature did good when making
red woods,and their saw dust has added years to my life span
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
23 Jun 2005 02:56:21 AM |
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In article <d9c6aj$9ul$1@pcls4.std.com>,
(Michael Moroney) wrote:
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> writes:
How does the redwood get all that water up there to grow more redwood
tree?
Tensile strength of flawless water in small channels. The pull is via
passive capillary action plus transpiration actively pulling at the
top.
Interesting. The active pulling is good for only 30' so the passive
capillary action must do the rest. What actually does the pumping (mgh)
up there? Again the suction is good for 30' of pumping Once you have the
capillary tubes full where does the rest of the pumping energy come from
to give the continuous supply the treetop demands?
They are not tubes. There are check valves but I forget the
term biologists use.
<snip>
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 05:35:49 PM |
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Michael Moroney wrote:
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> writes:
How does the redwood get all that water up there to grow more redwood
tree?
Tensile strength of flawless water in small channels. The pull is via
passive capillary action plus transpiration actively pulling at the
top.
Interesting. The active pulling is good for only 30' so the passive
capillary action must do the rest. What actually does the pumping (mgh)
up there? Again the suction is good for 30' of pumping Once you have the
capillary tubes full where does the rest of the pumping energy come from
to give the continuous supply the treetop demands? A capillary tube by
itself can't make a fountain, for example. Is there a theoretical limit
to how long capillary tubes of "flawless" water can be?
"Flawless" water is an interesting concept. I take it the minerals in
the water aren't "flaws"?
Unflawed water has IMMENSE tensile strength. The tensile strength of
water is no less than 3000 psi. Bring two pistons against a column of
thoroughly degassed water with all surfaces polished and then measure
the force required to break a vapor bubble. That is what gives you
the 200-foot rise in redwoods/sequoias. Any nucleation center that
allows a vapor bubble (cavitation) to form breaks the column as
Torricelli's vacuum is formed.
http://www.aip.org/pt/feb00/maris.htm
tech readout
<http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Tensile:strength.htm>
Middle
<http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/webb/BOT311/BOT311-00/Water/water4.htm>
Bottom
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "tadchem" |
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| Title: Re: Best water wicking material? |
22 Jun 2005 12:55:18 PM |
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Michael Moroney wrote:
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> writes:
How does the redwood get all that water up there to grow more redwood
tree?
Tensile strength of flawless water in small channels. The pull is via
passive capillary action plus transpiration actively pulling at the
top.
Interesting. The active pulling is good for only 30'
That 30' figure is for vacuum suction (as in a syphon). Capillary
action requires small tubules, generally only a few microns in diameter
(capillaries), and is only good for a few centimeters. The process
that moves water beyond the 30' limit in trees is called 'active
transport' and is physically related to osmosis.
http://www.science-projects.com/Transpiration.htm
states:
"the highest that a capillary can lift water is somewhere in the range
of one meter - high enough for most greenhouse plants, but not for
trees"
and reminds us:
"the narrower the capillary, the less water will be able to flow"
Is there a theoretical limit
to how long capillary tubes of "flawless" water can be?
"Flawless" water is an interesting concept. I take it the minerals in
the water aren't "flaws"?
I don't know what Al was thinking (he didn't define 'flaws' in this
context), but small amounts of certain types of imprities in water -
anything with surface-active properties (surfactants, aka detergents)
will reduce the surface energy density ("surface tension") of the water
and thus the distance that the water can be lifted.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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