Black Holes that Don't Trap



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Topic: Science > Physics
User: "Sam Wormley"
Date: 19 Oct 2006 06:57:36 PM
Object: Black Holes that Don't Trap
Black Holes that Don't Trap
http://focus.aps.org/story/v18/st12
black hole spacetime
Three decades ago Stephen Hawking discovered that black holes can emit
radiation, so they aren't really black. Now it seems that they may not
necessarily be holes. Theorists reporting in the 27 October PRL studied
the Hawking-like sound waves radiating from a black hole "analogue"--a
fluid flow in which the downstream current acts like a gravitational
pull and which is governed by black-hole-like equations. Surprisingly,
the Hawking waves appeared in the fluid even without the inescapable
region normally associated with black holes. The results suggest that
experimenters may have less trouble than expected creating Hawking
radiation analogues in the lab. The team speculates that real black
holes might also exist in such a state, but other experts are
skeptical.
The "point of no return" for anything venturing near a black hole is
called the event horizon--nothing leaves once it crosses this imaginary
spherical shell surrounding the hole. Hawking realized, however, that
the warped spacetime on the cusp of the event horizon would stimulate
the creation of particles, some having enough energy to break free of
the gravitational hold.
Unfortunately, the predicted radiation from real black holes is too
feeble to detect. Some researchers have therefore tried to indirectly
verify the theory with analogue black holes--solid or liquid systems
that trap sound or light in a way similar to real black holes. One
example is a quantum fluid like liquid helium with some portion moving
faster than the speed of sound. A swimmer in this supersonic region
could cry out for help, but the sound waves would never escape to the
stationary region. The equations describing such a sound trap are
similar to those for a black hole's funnel-shaped spacetime.
Theoretical studies of acoustic event horizons predict that they should
emit Hawking-like radiation from the edge of the supersonic region in
the form of quantized sound waves called phonons.
Researchers would like to observe this analogue Hawking radiation in
the lab in order to learn more about this exotic phenomenon. But no one
has succeeded so far, in part because the instabilities and turbulence
associated with a supersonic flow make such measurements difficult. But
it turns out that supersonic flows shouldn't be necessary for
generating Hawking radiation, according to the predictions of Carlos
Barceló, of the Astrophysics Institute of Andalucía in Granada, Spain,
and his colleagues.
The team modeled a frictionless fluid flowing down a narrow pipe. They
imagined first that the flow speed accelerated with distance down the
pipe (perhaps because of a decrease in diameter) and second that the
maximum velocity increased with time. If the downstream flow reached
sound speed, they calculated that an upstream observer would hear a
Hawking-like hum. However, the team discovered that they could slowly
turn up the velocity--getting close to but never quite reaching
supersonic speeds--and yet the same phonon radiation came out. "It was
surprising. I was expecting to see no radiation," says co-author
Stefano Liberati of the International School of Advanced Studies in
Trieste, Italy.
The researchers speculate that a collapsing star could emit Hawking
radiation without ever forming an event horizon. From a distance, it
would still look like a black hole as long as it kept collapsing,
because light would be strongly affected by the severely warped
spacetime. But William Unruh of the University of British Columbia in
Vancouver thinks this scenario is unrealistic. To emit the expected
amount of radiation, he says, the star would have to shrink very close
to the compactness needed for an event horizon to form, so close that
the difference would not be physically meaningful.
--Michael Schirber
Michael Schirber is a freelance science writer in Montpellier, France.
Hawking Like Radiation Does Not Require a Trapped Region
Carlos Barceló, Stefano Liberati, Sebastiano Sonego, and Matt Visser
Phys. Rev. Lett. (to be published)
.

User: "Raymond Yohros"

Title: Re: Black Holes that Don't Trap 22 Oct 2006 05:50:51 PM
Experimenting with sound and ultrasound could
bring science to another level. the doppler shift
is clear proof that light behaives alot like sound.
after all, they are waves and a direct product of matenergy.
because light travels at the speed limit constant
sound is alot closer to our range of understanding opening
up extensive experimental posibilities that could not only
confirm theory (like this article) but also help making new predictions
xsample
the mistery of the sonoluminescence effect
does not have a clear explanation
also, faster than sound enviroments can be created to observe
certain behaviours while the superlumina effect is just an
experimental fantasy.
Understanding nature at this lower levels can give us the
basic set of ideas to then try to apply to the physical world.
Sound can also help revive the nature of the string wich has been
for so long in the fields of dreams and that is about time
to make part of our scientific reality
it can also be an incredible tool for effective communication in the
understandings of matenergy and gravitation making a whole new lenguage
for bringing scientist closer to truth.
regards
raymond
Son Of Sound
Sam Wormley wrote:

Black Holes that Don't Trap
http://focus.aps.org/story/v18/st12

black hole spacetime


Three decades ago Stephen Hawking discovered that black holes can emit
radiation, so they aren't really black. Now it seems that they may not
necessarily be holes. Theorists reporting in the 27 October PRL studied
the Hawking-like sound waves radiating from a black hole "analogue"--a
fluid flow in which the downstream current acts like a gravitational
pull and which is governed by black-hole-like equations. Surprisingly,
the Hawking waves appeared in the fluid even without the inescapable
region normally associated with black holes. The results suggest that
experimenters may have less trouble than expected creating Hawking
radiation analogues in the lab. The team speculates that real black
holes might also exist in such a state, but other experts are
skeptical.

The "point of no return" for anything venturing near a black hole is
called the event horizon--nothing leaves once it crosses this imaginary
spherical shell surrounding the hole. Hawking realized, however, that
the warped spacetime on the cusp of the event horizon would stimulate
the creation of particles, some having enough energy to break free of
the gravitational hold.

Unfortunately, the predicted radiation from real black holes is too
feeble to detect. Some researchers have therefore tried to indirectly
verify the theory with analogue black holes--solid or liquid systems
that trap sound or light in a way similar to real black holes. One
example is a quantum fluid like liquid helium with some portion moving
faster than the speed of sound. A swimmer in this supersonic region
could cry out for help, but the sound waves would never escape to the
stationary region. The equations describing such a sound trap are
similar to those for a black hole's funnel-shaped spacetime.
Theoretical studies of acoustic event horizons predict that they should
emit Hawking-like radiation from the edge of the supersonic region in
the form of quantized sound waves called phonons.

Researchers would like to observe this analogue Hawking radiation in
the lab in order to learn more about this exotic phenomenon. But no one
has succeeded so far, in part because the instabilities and turbulence
associated with a supersonic flow make such measurements difficult. But
it turns out that supersonic flows shouldn't be necessary for
generating Hawking radiation, according to the predictions of Carlos
Barcel=F3, of the Astrophysics Institute of Andaluc=EDa in Granada, Spain,
and his colleagues.

The team modeled a frictionless fluid flowing down a narrow pipe. They
imagined first that the flow speed accelerated with distance down the
pipe (perhaps because of a decrease in diameter) and second that the
maximum velocity increased with time. If the downstream flow reached
sound speed, they calculated that an upstream observer would hear a
Hawking-like hum. However, the team discovered that they could slowly
turn up the velocity--getting close to but never quite reaching
supersonic speeds--and yet the same phonon radiation came out. "It was
surprising. I was expecting to see no radiation," says co-author
Stefano Liberati of the International School of Advanced Studies in
Trieste, Italy.

The researchers speculate that a collapsing star could emit Hawking
radiation without ever forming an event horizon. From a distance, it
would still look like a black hole as long as it kept collapsing,
because light would be strongly affected by the severely warped
spacetime. But William Unruh of the University of British Columbia in
Vancouver thinks this scenario is unrealistic. To emit the expected
amount of radiation, he says, the star would have to shrink very close
to the compactness needed for an event horizon to form, so close that
the difference would not be physically meaningful.

--Michael Schirber
Michael Schirber is a freelance science writer in Montpellier, France.
Hawking Like Radiation Does Not Require a Trapped Region
Carlos Barcel=F3, Stefano Liberati, Sebastiano Sonego, and Matt Visser
Phys. Rev. Lett. (to be published)

.
User: "Sorcerer"

Title: Re: Black Holes that Don't Trap 22 Oct 2006 06:40:32 PM
"Raymond Yohros" <bat@birdband.net> wrote in message
news:1161557451.252748.79310@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Experimenting with sound and ultrasound could
bring science to another level. the doppler shift
is clear proof that light behaives alot like sound.
Hey moron!
Fly over water waves, clear proof that you have no fuckin' clue.
.
User: "Raymond Yohros"

Title: Re: Black Holes that Don't Trap 22 Oct 2006 09:50:20 PM
Sorcerer wrote:

"Raymond Yohros" <bat@birdband.net> wrote in message
news:1161557451.252748.79310@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Experimenting with sound and ultrasound could
bring science to another level. the doppler shift
is clear proof that light behaives alot like sound.


Hey moron!
Fly over water waves, clear proof that you have no fuckin' clue.

by youre tone, i can see youre the one flying on youre own ego
.
User: "Sorcerer"

Title: Re: Black Holes that Don't Trap 22 Oct 2006 10:10:28 PM
"Raymond Yohros" <bat@birdband.net> wrote in message
news:1161571820.381175.189380@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
| Sorcerer wrote:
| > "Raymond Yohros" <bat@birdband.net> wrote in message
| > news:1161557451.252748.79310@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| > Experimenting with sound and ultrasound could
| > bring science to another level. the doppler shift
| > is clear proof that light behaives alot like sound.
| >
| >
| > Hey moron!
| > Fly over water waves, clear proof that you have no fuckin' clue.
| >
|
| by youre tone, i can see youre the one flying on youre own ego
My tone has nothing whatever to do with doppler. If you fly over
water waves you'll count more wavecrests per second than if you
do not. Clear proof that water behaves "alot" like light, except
it behaves nothing like light. Oranges are spherical, clear proof
they behave "alot" like cherries and baseballs. Your "clear proofs"
are not proofs at all, let alone clear.
Light passes through vacuum, sound does not.
Clear proof that light is nothing like sound, Mr. Ego Trip.
Androcles
.
User: "Raymond Yohros"

Title: Re: Black Holes that Don't Trap 22 Oct 2006 11:20:00 PM
Sorcerer wrote:

My tone has nothing whatever to do with doppler. If you fly over
water waves you'll count more wavecrests per second than if you
do not. Clear proof that water behaves "alot" like light, except
it behaves nothing like light.
Oranges are spherical, clear proof
they behave "alot" like cherries and baseballs. Your "clear proofs"
are not proofs at all, let alone clear.
Light passes through vacuum, sound does not.
Clear proof that light is nothing like sound, Mr. Ego Trip.
Androcles

you did reveal a CLEAR mistake in the way i presented my point.
sometimes i have problems expresing myself with acuracy.
i will repair the mistakes and repost
regards
raymond
.





User: "malibu"

Title: Re: Black Holes that Don't Trap 23 Oct 2006 09:13:39 AM
Sam Wormley wrote:

Black Holes that Don't Trap
http://focus.aps.org/story/v18/st12

snip........ Theorists reporting in the 27 October PRL studied

the Hawking-like sound waves radiating from a black hole "analogue"

suggest ............ The team speculates.............. They

imagined.............. (perhaps.................. The researchers speculate.

.......
Frick, great job, guys.
Good, uh,..............science?
John
.

User: "Edward Green"

Title: Re: Black Holes that Don't Trap 19 Oct 2006 10:04:28 PM
Sam Wormley wrote:

Black Holes that Don't Trap
http://focus.aps.org/story/v18/st12

<...>

The team modeled a frictionless fluid flowing down a narrow pipe. They
imagined first that the flow speed accelerated with distance down the
pipe (perhaps because of a decrease in diameter) and second that the
maximum velocity increased with time. If the downstream flow reached
sound speed, they calculated that an upstream observer would hear a
Hawking-like hum. However, the team discovered that they could slowly
turn up the velocity--getting close to but never quite reaching
supersonic speeds--and yet the same phonon radiation came out. "It was
surprising. I was expecting to see no radiation," says co-author
Stefano Liberati of the International School of Advanced Studies in
Trieste, Italy.

That's very cool... for the heretically minded. The event horizon may
not be needed, and may not form in the first place, because the full
black hole solution can be considered to describe events that are in
some sense infinitely removed from the outside observer. On the other
hand, near-event-horizons -- arbitrarily near, in fact -- could
certainly form, because that merely describes events in some measure
far from the outside observer, at which some class of trajectories
travel very close to a limiting speed. But go as far as you want;
infinity is no closer.

The researchers speculate that a collapsing star could emit Hawking
radiation without ever forming an event horizon. From a distance, it
would still look like a black hole as long as it kept collapsing,
because light would be strongly affected by the severely warped
spacetime. But William Unruh of the University of British Columbia in
Vancouver thinks this scenario is unrealistic. To emit the expected
amount of radiation, he says, the star would have to shrink very close
to the compactness needed for an event horizon to form, so close that
the difference would not be physically meaningful.

_The_ Unruh? Cool. I question the meaning of "very close", though. If
one is right that the theoretical event horizon, never forming,
corresponds to a locus effectively infinitely far from the external
observer, then "very close" is always infinitely far from the horizon,
though it be close in some other measure, say... the Schwarzschild
r-coordinate. There is unlimited room at the top.
Probably general relativity frees itself from certain difficulties
(which, however, only I seem able to see ;-) connected with an
infinitely distant locus seeming to be a well behaved location in the
spacetime manifold, by never finishing formation of the full black hole
geometry in the first place. Despite the feeling that "everything is
relative", not forming in finite time (in a sufficiently well-
operationalized sense) for the outside observer -- i.e., "us" -- means
not forming, period. What do we care that a solution can in some sense
be extrapolated right up to, and past, our infinitely far future? Our
future defines "never".
It may someday be recognized that GR has a pathology of producing
solutions which run -- mathematically -- right up to and past events
which will never occur in any reasonable sense besides "occuring" in
the manifold -- entertaining as study of these solution regions may be
for the cognescenti.
.


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