| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Dan Bloomquist" |
| Date: |
09 Mar 2007 12:34:40 PM |
| Object: |
Brazil's Ethanol... |
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
***
http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4049
Brazil's Ethanol Plan Breeds Rural Poverty, Environmental Degradation
Isabella Kenfield | March 6, 2007
Americas Program, International Relations Center (IRC)
americas.irc-online.org
On Jan. 22 the Lula administration announced it will increase federal
funding for Brazil's sugar-based ethanol industry by almost US$6 billion
over the next four years. One day later, U.S. President George W. Bush
declared in the State of the Union address his goal to reduce U.S. use
of gasoline 20% by the year 2017.
The general response in Brazil to Bush's announcement was overwhelmingly
positive. Luis Fernando Furlan, Minister of Industry, Development, and
Commerce, was quoted in the Gazeta Mercantil as saying he received
Bush's announcement "with applause."
"It is a fantastic business opportunity," Luis Carlos Correa Carvalho,
an industry consultant, told Reuters. "We have never had such a great
opportunity for the substitution of petroleum."
The United States is currently the largest importer of Brazilian
ethanol. Last year it imported 1.74 billion liters, or 58% of the total
three billion liters that Brazil exported. For the United States to
reach Bush's target reduction of gasoline use, the country will need an
additional 135 billion liters of ethanol annually. Because it will not
be able to produce the entire amount, no doubt a large portion will come
from Brazil.
Brazil is the global leader in ethanol exports. In 2006, the country
exported about 19% of the total 16 billion liters it produced, providing
70% of the world's supply.
This amount will soon increase. A partnership between the Ministry of
Science and Technology and the University of Campinas in São Paulo is
currently conducting a study to plan Brazil's ethanol exports as a
substitute for 10% of the global use of gasoline in 20 years.
If this plan is successful, the country's ethanol exports will total 200
billion liters by 2025—an increase of almost 67%. The geographic area
planted with sugarcane will increase from 6 million to 30 million hectares.
Is Ethanol the Solution or the Problem?
Many citizen organizations in Brazil are concerned that what appears to
be an economic panacea may be a social and ecological disaster. They
claim that as the industry expands and more hectares are planted
mono-cropping sugarcane, existing problems in rural areas of
landlessness, hunger, unemployment, environmental degradation, and
agrarian conflicts will be exacerbated.
A recent declaration from the Forum of Resistance to Agribusinesses, a
consortium of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) throughout South
America states, "The implementation of the model of production and
export of biofuels represents a grave threat to our region, our natural
resources, and the sovereignty of our people."
There is concern that while expansion of the ethanol industry may boost
Brazil's GDP and some Brazilians will become very wealthy in the
process, the majority of the population will not benefit from the
ethanol export boom. Given U.S. plans to increase imports of Brazilian
ethanol and the alliance slated to be forged during Bush's South America
visit in March, it is likely the livelihoods of many Brazilians,
especially the rural poor, will be subordinated to maintain U.S.
consumption.
"The era of biofuels will reproduce and legitimize the logic of the
occupation of rural areas by multinational agribusiness, and perpetuate
the colonial project to subvert ecosystems and people to the service of
the production and maintenance of a lifestyle in other societies,"
states the Forum. The group alleges that Brazil's effort to supply the
Global North with ethanol is simply a repeat of the same model of
economic growth via agro-export that has been practiced since Portuguese
colonization.
Agricultural production for export in Brazil has traditionally been a
model imposed on the country by more powerful nations in the North,
alongside a small group of Brazilian landowners. Agro-export generates
vast amounts of wealth for a few Brazilians, and exploitation and
poverty for many others. Brazil's high rate of income inequality is
inseparable from the fact that it also has one of the most unequal rates
of land distribution. The sugar industry is a classic example of
Brazil's land and income inequality.
A Bittersweet Future
Brazilian ethanol is produced from sugarcane, which has always been a
primary agricultural commodity for the country. Because ethanol relies
on sugarcane as its primary material, the industry is linked to the
social and economic dynamics in rural areas that have developed from
sugarcane production since the colonial era, most importantly labor
exploitation and land concentration.
According to Marluce Melo of the Pastoral Land Commission (CPT) in the
northern Brazilian city of Recife, Pernambuco, "Rural poverty has always
been intrinsically related to the economy of sugarcane. Even in the
1970s, when Pernambuco was the largest national producer of sugarcane,
the levels of poverty were amongst the highest in the world."
In many ways, things have changed little on the sugarcane plantations
since colonial times.
"The problems with [sugarcane's] production today are very similar to
the problems it generated hundreds of years ago," says Maisa Mendonça,
Director of the São Paulo-based NGO Rede Social. Sugarcane fieldworkers
endure some of the hardest labor in the world. According to Mendonça,
Brazil has the lowest cost of production in the world because of the
industry's dependence on labor exploitation, including massive slave
labor, and its refusal to implement environmental regulations. In São
Paulo the cost of production is US$165 per ton; in Europe it is US$700
per ton. I n São Paulo the median monthly salary for a field laborer on
a sugar cane plantation is US$195; in Pernambuco it is US$167.
It is estimated that 40,000 seasonal migrant laborers from the Northeast
and Minas Gerais state work in the annual harvest in São Paulo. They
work long hours in extremely hot temperatures, cutting as fast as they
can because their pay is based on the weight of their cuttings.
Maria Aparecida de Morães Silva, at the State University of São Paulo,
reports that the required rate of productivity for cane cutters is
increasing. In the 1980s, the average rate of productivity demanded of
an individual cutter was between five and eight tons of sugarcane cut
per day; today it is between 12 and 15 tons. From 2004 to 2006, the
Pastoral of Migrants registered 17 deaths from excessive labor in São
Paulo, and in 2005 the state's Regional Delegation of Labor registered
416 deaths of workers in sugar-based ethanol production.
Concentration in the Industry
As it grows, the sugar-ethanol industry has undergone a process of
increasing concentration and vertical integration, as large corporations
invest in land and production. According to a banker who finances loans
to the ethanol industry in São Paulo and asked to remain anonymous, in
the past control of the industry was dispersed among smaller businesses.
Sugar mills were owned by individual owners who controlled both
cultivation and milling.
Today Brazil has 72,000 sugar producers, and the ten largest producers
still control less than 30% of production. However, the banker says,
"The current trend is toward concentration, with a large number of
mergers and acquisitions."
Many of the larger companies that are buying out the smaller companies
are multinational agribusiness corporations. "The participation by
foreign capital in the production of sugar and ethanol is currently
4.5%, and this number is going to grow. Recently many foreign groups are
looking to invest in this industry in Brazil, due to one of the lowest
costs of production in the world," says the banker.
Sugarcane seems to be following the same pattern of foreign investment
and concentration as that of soybeans. Today almost all soybean
production in Brazil is controlled by a handful of multinational
agribusinesses.
Many of the corporations that control soybeans are now investing in the
ethanol industry. Among the multinational agribusinesses investing in
the industry are, according to the banker, Louis Dreyfus Commodities and
Tereos, both based in France, as well as U.S.-based Cargill. The Louis
Dreyfus site states the company is one of the three largest sugar
traders in the world, and owns three Brazilian sugar mills with a fourth
mill currently under construction in Mato Grosso do Sul . The company
produces 450,000 tons of sugar and 150,000 cubic meters of ethanol annually.
According to the Cargill website, in addition to being Brazil's largest
soybean exporter and second-largest processor, Cargill is the largest
operator of sugar, both in terms of Brazilian sugar production and
export sales, as well as global sugar trading.
As more land is planted as a monoculture of sugarcane, and control of
the industry becomes more concentrated, rural poverty increases.
According to Melo of the CPT, "Monoculture has created a huge dependency
on the sugarcane economy in the [Pernambuco] region, and impedes the
creation of other forms of work and income. The monoculture of sugarcane
also leads to an increasing concentration of lands in the hands of the
sugar mills.
"For about 15 years, there were 43 sugar mills and alcohol distilleries
in Pernambuco. Currently only 25 of these companies control practically
all of the land in the 43 municipalities of the sugarcane growing region
of the state ... In the last two decades, practically all of the small
properties in the region have disappeared, with the forced destruction
of the sites, and the expulsion of the workers to the periphery of the
43 municipalities of the sugarcane region and to the larger cities of
the neighboring metropolitan region. In this same period, about 150,000
jobs were lost when 18 companies closed and the lands and sugarcane
processing was concentrated in the 25 sugar mills and distilleries that
remain ... This has provoked a generalized 'slumming' of the workers,
which has aggravated hunger."
Economic Boom or Environmental Bust?
Industry, government, and mainstream media in Brazil generally argue
that increasing ethanol exports will boost economic growth and
sustainable rural development, while simultaneously helping to curb
global warming by helping the world reduce its dependency on fossil fuels.
But contrary to the "green" image evoked by industry advocates, the
monoculture of sugarcane leads to massive environmental destruction.
According to Melo, in Pernambuco only 2.5% of the original forest of the
sugarcane region remains. In order to satisfy future global demand,
Brazil will need to clear an additional 148 million acres of forest,
says Eric Holt-Gimenez of the NGO FoodFirst, based in Oakland, CA.
The damaging environmental effects of monocropping sugarcane are, in the
São Paulo banker's mind, the most troubling aspect of the sugar-ethanol
industry. He claims that the sugar takeover is "pushing other crops to
the agricultural frontier."
He explains that, "because sugarcane generates a high price per hectare,
the regions with better climactic conditions are dominated by this crop,
which results in sugarcane occupying lands that before were planted to
grains and used for grazing livestock. Grain producers move to more
remote regions, such as the center-west, which before were used for
cattle. The result of this flux is that cattle ranchers seek new areas
such as the Amazon region."
Resisting Changes in Land Use
As the expanding ethanol industry spreads rural poverty and loss of
rural livelihoods due to increased land concentration and environmental
destruction, the number and intensity of agrarian conflicts has risen.
Brazil has one of the highest rates of income and land inequality in the
world, and a well-articulated and organized agrarian reform movement of
the rural poor. This has created a smoldering socio-economic fire that
could very well be ignited with ethanol.
On Feb. 19 the Movement of Landless Rural Workers (MST) and the Central
Union of Workers (CUT) organized about 2,000 MST members and rural
workers to non-violently occupy 12 plantations totaling 15,600 hectares
in nine municipalities of São Paulo state. According to the newspaper O
Estado de São Paulo, "MST leader José Rainha Júnior said the objectives
of the occupations are to force the government to acknowledge the
emergency need for agrarian reform, and to call attention to the social
problems resulting from the expansion of sugarcane in the state."
Melo reports that in 2005, Pernambuco registered 194 conflicts over
land—a rate higher than the previous five years. She also reports that
in the same year a general strike by sugarcane workers was violently
repressed.
"The employed and unemployed workers who struggle for agrarian reform
are constantly threatened and coerced by the landowning companies and by
the police at their service," she says. CPT data shows 60 labor
conflicts for 2005 alone, while between 2000 and 2004 the highest number
of labor conflicts was nine.
As the Lula administration proceeds full-speed ahead with ethanol export
as a model for economic development, it is turning its back on the
millions of Brazilians who voted for the Workers' Party based on its
promises to implement real social and economic changes, especially
agrarian reform. According to Melo, "The Lula government has
strengthened the historical cane-production model imposed on the country
based on monoculture, and concentrated landholdings and large companies.
He has not shown any interest in creating alternatives to this perverse
model."
Can there be viable economic alternatives to sugarcane monocropping? "
Our evaluation is that the government needs to combat hunger," says
Mendonça. "The government wants to become a factory to supply rich
countries with cheap energy. This is compromising agrarian reform and
food production."
What the social movements, many NGOs, and other organizations agree on
is that Brazil needs to incorporate the concepts of food sovereignty
into its development policy, prioritizing the land to produce food for
Brazilians. Food sovereignty includes both the obligation of governments
to ensure that their populations have access to nutritious foods in
adequate quantities, and the right of people and countries to define
their own agrarian policies, and produce foods destined to feed their
populations before producing for export.
But food sovereignty will be unattainable without a comprehensive
agrarian reform to keep family farmers on the land, producing and
distributing healthy food to local populations. As it is currently
developing, the Brazilian ethanol industry represents a direct challenge
to food sovereignty and agrarian reform. Ethanol production to sustain
the enormous consumption levels of the Global North will not lead the
Brazilian countryside out of poverty or help attain food sovereignty for
its citizens.
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| User: "Brad Guth" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 02:32:23 PM |
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"Dan Bloomquist" <public21@lakeweb.com> wrote in message
news:4NhIh.4574$ya1.1081@news02.roc.ny
Besides, what the hell do we need that silly rain forest for in the
first place?
Let them convet everything is sight to whatever liquid fuel keeps our
Hummers on the road, and of those business SSTs doing their thing.
After all, E-85 should get nearly 7 mpg, or E-100 should get us damn
near 5 mpg, along with insuring butt loads of CO2 and NOx to boot.
-
Brad Guth
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
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| User: "Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 01:18:17 PM |
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Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
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| User: "Gregg" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 06:51:42 PM |
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Frank wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
Why Corn? - Why not sugar beets?
What about veg. oils from plants or trees that grow in soils with low
fertility or require less fertilizer??
Is corn the most viable option in the US?
Gregg
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| User: "abrums" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 09:54:08 PM |
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Gregg wrote:
Frank wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
Why Corn? - Why not sugar beets?
What about veg. oils from plants or trees that grow in soils with low
fertility or require less fertilizer??
Is corn the most viable option in the US?
Gregg
Sugar Beets indeed and they make great hunting fields.
Ten years out we will end up using a mix of almost anything we could
image.
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 09:11:21 PM |
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Gregg wrote:
Frank wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
Why Corn? - Why not sugar beets?
What about veg. oils from plants or trees that grow in soils with low
fertility or require less fertilizer??
Is corn the most viable option in the US?
If anything would have a decent ERoEI, it would be switchgrass and
something other than fermentation.
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/bioen96/mclaugh.html
But if the _net_ output per Iowa amounts to tenths of quads, it has
meaningless impact but for the pocketbooks of investors.
How much new production, in quads, can we see from bio in two decades?
In the mean time, today's 175 quads of just liquid demand will increase
by another 75 quads.
Me thinks that 'bio' is just a touchy feely thing that makes good copy
in the news.
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| User: "Eeyore" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 09:34:25 PM |
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Dan Bloomquist wrote:
In the mean time, today's 175 quads of just liquid demand will increase
by another 75 quads.
Using what daft assumption is that ?
Graham
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| User: "Bob Cain" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 01:59:26 PM |
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Gregg wrote:
Why Corn? - Why not sugar beets?
What about veg. oils from plants or trees that grow in soils with low
fertility or require less fertilizer??
Is corn the most viable option in the US?
It is a rather expensive way to dispose of corn. From a post by earle
jones last June:
"Abusing our precious croplands to grow corn for an
energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade automobile fuel
amounts to unsustainable, subsidized food burning," says [Cornell
University Professor David] Pimentel. He knows what he is talking
about. He chaired a U.S. Department of Energy panel that
investigated the energetics, economics and environmental aspects of
ethanol production several years ago."
"The real problem with ethanol from corn is that it requires fuel
to make the corn. David Pimentel a professor from Cornell has done
the analysis [i]. An acre of U.S. corn can be processed into about
328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that
much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347
per acre, according to Pimentel. That is $1.05 per gallon of ethanol
before the corn even moves off the farm.
The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the
grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps
and other treatments are needed to separate the ethanol from the
water. All these need energy.
Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to
ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol which
has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. "Put another way," Pimentel
says, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol
than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1
gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU."
Overall ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce,
compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of petrol. "That
helps explain why fossil fuels -- not ethanol -- are used to produce
ethanol" Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can't afford to
burn ethanol to make ethanol. Drivers couldn't afford it, either, if
it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."
earle
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| User: "Gregg" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 02:22:56 PM |
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Bob Cain wrote:
Gregg wrote:
Why Corn? - Why not sugar beets?
What about veg. oils from plants or trees that grow in soils with low
fertility or require less fertilizer??
Is corn the most viable option in the US?
It is a rather expensive way to dispose of corn. From a post by earle
jones last June:
"Abusing our precious croplands to grow corn for an
energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade automobile fuel
amounts to unsustainable, subsidized food burning," says [Cornell
University Professor David] Pimentel. He knows what he is talking
about. He chaired a U.S. Department of Energy panel that
investigated the energetics, economics and environmental aspects of
ethanol production several years ago."
"The real problem with ethanol from corn is that it requires fuel
to make the corn. David Pimentel a professor from Cornell has done
the analysis [i]. An acre of U.S. corn can be processed into about
328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that
much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347
per acre, according to Pimentel. That is $1.05 per gallon of ethanol
before the corn even moves off the farm.
The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the
grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps
and other treatments are needed to separate the ethanol from the
water. All these need energy.
Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to
ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol which
has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. "Put another way," Pimentel
says, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol
than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1
gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU."
Overall ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce,
compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of petrol. "That
helps explain why fossil fuels -- not ethanol -- are used to produce
ethanol" Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can't afford to
burn ethanol to make ethanol. Drivers couldn't afford it, either, if
it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."
earl
Thanks for the comments -with your info - I'll do a little goggling and
dig deeper.
Those numbers do not surprise me. I'm just astounded by the push for
ethanol from corn when other forms of bio energy may be more viable.
I'm also having a little trouble understanding the Hybrid auto hype when
Europe has been using high efficiency diesels for years.
Do you have any information on the economics of producing bio-diesel?
Gregg
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 02:36:41 PM |
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Gregg wrote:
Thanks for the comments -with your info - I'll do a little goggling and
dig deeper.
Those numbers do not surprise me. I'm just astounded by the push for
ethanol from corn when other forms of bio energy may be more viable.
You may want to look at the Farrel Report (Dec. 2005). You will find a
link to it here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/14849.html
I'm also having a little trouble understanding the Hybrid auto hype when
Europe has been using high efficiency diesels for years.
Where hybrids are concerned a distinction must be made between city and
highway driving. For highway driving a civic does just fine. A 6000 lb.
diesel will have the same shortcoming as gasoline in city driving.
Do you have any information on the economics of producing bio-diesel?
I've looked for solid numbers on this. It may suffer the same troubles
as corn being that soy is the mainstay crop in the west.
And bio still begs the question, what kind of meaningful impact will it
really have?
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| User: "Gregg" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 07:30:18 PM |
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Dan Bloomquist wrote:
Gregg wrote:
Thanks for the comments -with your info - I'll do a little goggling
and dig deeper.
Those numbers do not surprise me. I'm just astounded by the push for
ethanol from corn when other forms of bio energy may be more viable.
You may want to look at the Farrel Report (Dec. 2005). You will find a
link to it here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/14849.html
I'm also having a little trouble understanding the Hybrid auto hype
when Europe has been using high efficiency diesels for years.
Where hybrids are concerned a distinction must be made between city and
highway driving. For highway driving a civic does just fine. A 6000 lb.
diesel will have the same shortcoming as gasoline in city driving.
Do you have any information on the economics of producing bio-diesel?
I've looked for solid numbers on this. It may suffer the same troubles
as corn being that soy is the mainstay crop in the west.
And bio still begs the question, what kind of meaningful impact will it
really have?
Nice link - Thanks...
As for high efficiency diesels - I was thinking of some of the VW's that
get 45+ mph highway.
The millage may drop to 30+ city - but that's a hell of a lot better
than 12+ for a large SUV.
People don't like being told what to drive, but I sure as hell don't
like having my tax dollars (and my children's tax dollars) wasted on
foolish bioenergy projects and the military spending (or associated
graft) to protect our oil supplies (looking at the economics and not
even considering other factors -like the loss of life).
I do not have a good idea of how well mass transit would work in the US
- everybody living in the suburbs etc.., but it should be focus of some
serious studies and/or spending.
Car pooling is a pain in the A.. , but a lot of people where I work do
it (myself included). - The car pooling began when the price of gas sky
rocketed.
What is the exact effect of gas prices on consumption? - I would like to
know....
The problem is taking the time to get good information so I can try to
make an informed decision at the voting booth. The main stream media not
a good source of information
- that's why I'm trying to pick the brains of the people who use these
news groups.
Any information or links are appreciated!
Gregg
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 09:36:40 PM |
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50 cent terrif on achohol ?
ha ha import the sugar and make it
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
11 Mar 2007 01:06:25 PM |
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Gregg wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
http://www.energybulletin.net/14849.html
Nice link - Thanks...
Thank you for appreciating it.
As for high efficiency diesels - I was thinking of some of the VW's that
get 45+ mph highway.
My Son owns a Jetta TDI. Better than 50mpg with reasonable driving.
The millage may drop to 30+ city - but that's a hell of a lot better
than 12+ for a large SUV.
I have a friend that owns an Accord. Again, comparable with reasonable
driving.
People don't like being told what to drive, but I sure as hell don't
like having my tax dollars (and my children's tax dollars) wasted on
foolish bioenergy projects and the military spending (or associated
graft) to protect our oil supplies (looking at the economics and not
even considering other factors -like the loss of life).
The reason I post is for the children. I'm old. I have often said that
this can't be fixed unless worldwide leadership takes the reins. I
wouldn't worry about tax dollars or all the other distractions. The big
fish is that we could see peak oil have its way with world economies. It
may not be that far off.
http://www.theoildrum.com/
I'm working on the question, 'The End of Yen Carry Trade?'. It is along
the lines of an appreciating Yen and non performing loans in Japan. But
the side note to that is the arbitrage business it has created. It makes
LTM look like a nat on an elephant.
In the present economic climate, the last thing we need is demand
destruction from peak oil.
I do not have a good idea of how well mass transit would work in the US
- everybody living in the suburbs etc.., but it should be focus of some
serious studies and/or spending.
Car pooling is a pain in the A.. , but a lot of people where I work do
it (myself included). - The car pooling began when the price of gas sky
rocketed.
What is the exact effect of gas prices on consumption? - I would like to
know....
This is about mitigation. Conservation is the first offensive move
against demand destruction. But consumption trends are a huge ship and
it takes time to steer a new coarse. A rather in-depth analyses can be
found in the Hirsch report:
http://lakeweb.com/money/Hirsch.pdf
The problem is taking the time to get good information so I can try to
make an informed decision at the voting booth. The main stream media not
a good source of information
- that's why I'm trying to pick the brains of the people who use these
news groups.
Any information or links are appreciated!
Well, I've offered a couple of more sources. :)
But I don't see a grass roots fix to this. I don't see how, but for
minor exceptions, there is no meaningful choice in leaders. Partisan
politics is just two faces of the same coin.
I've decided to hunker down and get my community aware.
Gregg
Best, Dan.
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| User: "Gregg" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
12 Mar 2007 05:01:05 AM |
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Dan Bloomquist wrote:
Gregg wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
http://www.energybulletin.net/14849.html
Nice link - Thanks...
Thank you for appreciating it.
As for high efficiency diesels - I was thinking of some of the VW's
that get 45+ mph highway.
My Son owns a Jetta TDI. Better than 50mpg with reasonable driving.
The millage may drop to 30+ city - but that's a hell of a lot better
than 12+ for a large SUV.
I have a friend that owns an Accord. Again, comparable with reasonable
driving.
People don't like being told what to drive, but I sure as hell don't
like having my tax dollars (and my children's tax dollars) wasted on
foolish bioenergy projects and the military spending (or associated
graft) to protect our oil supplies (looking at the economics and not
even considering other factors -like the loss of life).
The reason I post is for the children. I'm old. I have often said that
this can't be fixed unless worldwide leadership takes the reins. I
wouldn't worry about tax dollars or all the other distractions. The big
fish is that we could see peak oil have its way with world economies. It
may not be that far off.
http://www.theoildrum.com/
I'm working on the question, 'The End of Yen Carry Trade?'. It is along
the lines of an appreciating Yen and non performing loans in Japan. But
the side note to that is the arbitrage business it has created. It makes
LTM look like a nat on an elephant.
In the present economic climate, the last thing we need is demand
destruction from peak oil.
I do not have a good idea of how well mass transit would work in the
US - everybody living in the suburbs etc.., but it should be focus of
some serious studies and/or spending.
Car pooling is a pain in the A.. , but a lot of people where I work do
it (myself included). - The car pooling began when the price of gas
sky rocketed.
What is the exact effect of gas prices on consumption? - I would like
to know....
This is about mitigation. Conservation is the first offensive move
against demand destruction. But consumption trends are a huge ship and
it takes time to steer a new coarse. A rather in-depth analyses can be
found in the Hirsch report:
http://lakeweb.com/money/Hirsch.pdf
The problem is taking the time to get good information so I can try to
make an informed decision at the voting booth. The main stream media
not a good source of information
- that's why I'm trying to pick the brains of the people who use these
news groups.
Any information or links are appreciated!
Well, I've offered a couple of more sources. :)
But I don't see a grass roots fix to this. I don't see how, but for
minor exceptions, there is no meaningful choice in leaders. Partisan
politics is just two faces of the same coin.
I've decided to hunker down and get my community aware.
Gregg
Best, Dan.
Thanks Dan!
Your reply was very informative (although a little depressing)
I hope you do "hunker down" - you would be performing a great community
service and one that is desperately needed.
We need more people with a sense of civic duty.- particularly those in
power.
I'm thankful for the internet and news groups - The "free press" does
not seem to be functioning anymore -"ie one small example- the
conditions at Walter Reed hospital were reported on 2+ years ago"
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/23/walter_reed/
No other paper of news entity ran with it until there was a change in
congress - Scary
I'm afraid the Internet is jeopardy also.
http://www.savetheinternet.com/
Thanks again for the info ;-)
Regards,
Gregg
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| User: "Eeyore" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 03:03:21 PM |
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Gregg wrote:
I'm also having a little trouble understanding the Hybrid auto hype when
Europe has been using high efficiency diesels for years.
How about a hybrid with a high efficiency diesel engine ? That'll be a winner.
Do you have any information on the economics of producing bio-diesel?
Look at the bulk price for vegetable oil ! It doesn't cost a fortune to make
bio-diesel from it. It's a simple trans-esterification process.
Graham
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| User: "Anthony Matonak" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 05:56:22 PM |
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Bob Cain wrote:
It is a rather expensive way to dispose of corn. From a post by earle
jones last June:
....
"The real problem with ethanol from corn is that it requires fuel
to make the corn. David Pimentel a professor from Cornell has done
the analysis [i]. An acre of U.S. corn can be processed into about
328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that
much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347
per acre, according to Pimentel. That is $1.05 per gallon of ethanol
before the corn even moves off the farm.
David Pimentel is well known for these kinds of "studies". While
the actual reports might have been technically correct at the
time (decades ago) but the numbers and assumptions are cherry
picked to always come out anti-biofuel.
One major assumption here is that the corn being converted into
ethanol is edible and the farmer can sell it. It's not fair to
count the costs of a waste product the same as the rest of a
farmers crop. The entire harvest would have the same energy costs
regardless of how the waste portion was treated.
Another assumption is that corn grown for fuel would be the same
kind, and grown the same way, as edible corn. Clearly the kind of
corn one would feed a machine isn't going to be the same as what
one feeds their family. Methods of growing this crop would also
be different than that used to grow food grade corn.
The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the
grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps
and other treatments are needed to separate the ethanol from the
water. All these need energy.
All these steps need energy but the energy doesn't have to come from
fossil fuels. Other sources of energy, such as solar thermal, waste
or wind turbines, might be used to provide the heat and electricity
needed.
Pimentel also forgets to count the other products produced from this
corn apart from ethanol. At the least you can also get vegetable oil,
animal feed and/or combustible materials. I've even heard of a couple
of companies that make building materials out of corn stalks.
Anthony
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| User: "Joe Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 01:39:11 PM |
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On 9 Mar 2007 11:18:17 -0800, "Frank" <frank.logullo@dol.net> wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
Both of you have a warped viewpoint, the tariff allows
US companies and workers compete against imports.
The article posted talks of abused workers, yet
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
It is easy to sit around and criticize like old women,
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
Joe Fischer
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 11:15:44 AM |
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Joe Fischer wrote:
On 9 Mar 2007 11:18:17 -0800, "Frank" <frank.logullo@dol.net> wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
I was not going to acknowledge Joe's posts, but they are being
acknowledged. So I'll point out his fallacies.
Both of you have a warped viewpoint, the tariff allows
US companies and workers compete against imports.
A claim of truth that is unsupported. Tariffs, or protectionism, do not
necessarily create the desired effect.
http://economics.about.com/cs/taxpolicy/a/tariffs_2.htm
http://www.shambhala.org/business/goldocean/causdep.html
But, to follow, Joe would have tariffs to inflate the domestic cost but
deflate the foreign value.
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
Now Joe has rallied behind the Brazilian farm worker. The same Joe that
would have us depress the value of their product through tariffs. Of
course, Joe states this as another truth. As if the Brazilian economic
system that employees these workers is acceptable. He doesn't ask why
virtual slave labor in Brazil exists. But hay, these are folks in a far
away land with colored skin, so maybe...
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
Yet another 'truth' and it starts, pot, kettle. He has completely blown
past the issues and claims that Brazil ethanol helps. What popularizing
ethanol in the media in its present form does is create denial
concurring a much more important issue, oil.
But then, Joe is a certified believer and will create whatever 'truth'
necessary to support his agenda By 'believing', he doesn't have to take
a critical look at our present/future condition. There is a happy little
world in Joe's brain where dreams do come true...
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| User: "Joe Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 09:30:01 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 Dan Bloomquist <public21@lakeweb.com> wrote:
I was not going to acknowledge Joe's posts,
I thought you just got tired of writing "idiot",
but now it appears you can type other words too.
but they are being
acknowledged. So I'll point out his fallacies.
Both of you have a warped viewpoint, the tariff allows
US companies and workers compete against imports.
A claim of truth that is unsupported. Tariffs, or protectionism, do not
necessarily create the desired effect.
Tell that to the entity that passed the laws.
But, to follow, Joe would have tariffs to inflate the domestic cost but
deflate the foreign value.
I wouldn't have any tariffs, I would just the
refiners buy the cheap ethanol, we need it.
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
Now Joe has rallied behind the Brazilian farm worker.
You have a comprehension problem, migrant
farm workers everyplace work for less than local
full time workers, and they are glad to work for less
because they need the money.
The same Joe that
would have us depress the value of their product through tariffs.
Rant on with your distorted viewpoints and
effort to sustain or increase prices of oil futures.
Of
course, Joe states this as another truth. As if the Brazilian economic
system that employees these workers is acceptable.
It is acceptable if the Brazilian government allows it.
He doesn't ask why
virtual slave labor in Brazil exists. But hay, these are folks in a far
away land with colored skin, so maybe...
Like you know all about Brazil, move there and
try to improve it.
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
Yet another 'truth' and it starts, pot, kettle. He has completely blown
past the issues and claims that Brazil ethanol helps. What popularizing
ethanol in the media in its present form does is create denial
concurring a much more important issue, oil.
It is separate and apart from oil, it will be replacing
a large part of oil consumption. 10 percent in gasoline
is already a large part, mister "quad".
But then, Joe is a certified believer and will create whatever 'truth'
necessary to support his agenda
Like I have an "agenda".
By 'believing', he doesn't have to take
a critical look at our present/future condition. There is a happy little
world in Joe's brain where dreams do come true...
If you can't cope, that's your problem, there
will be shortages of oil, there will be all sorts of
problems, but it is difficult to cross a bridge before
you get to it.
Is there any chance you can quit being an
internet twit, stop crossposting, stop making people
the topic, and cheer up, things are better today than
ever before, hope they stay that way.
Joe Fischer
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| User: "Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 02:27:57 PM |
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On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Joe Fischer <j...@bigscreencomputers.com> wrote:
On 9 Mar 2007 11:18:17 -0800, "Frank" <frank.logu...@dol.net> wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
Both of you have a warped viewpoint, the tariff allows
US companies and workers compete against imports.
The article posted talks of abused workers, yet
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
It is easy to sit around and criticize like old women,
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
Joe Fischer
No, Joe, I'm an old male chemist. Ph.D. with over 40 years experience
in industry. It is unfortunate that more chemists do not speak up
about this lunacy.
Frank
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| User: "Arnold Walker" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 03:58:34 PM |
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"Frank" <frank.logullo@dol.net> wrote in message
news:1173472077.134992.54580@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Joe Fischer <j...@bigscreencomputers.com> wrote:
On 9 Mar 2007 11:18:17 -0800, "Frank" <frank.logu...@dol.net> wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
Both of you have a warped viewpoint, the tariff allows
US companies and workers compete against imports.
The article posted talks of abused workers, yet
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
It is easy to sit around and criticize like old women,
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
Joe Fischer
No, Joe, I'm an old male chemist. Ph.D. with over 40 years experience
in industry. It is unfortunate that more chemists do not speak up
about this lunacy.
Frank
Brazil has already killed the sugar cane market with Imperial Sugar(which
has a
virtual monoploy on US cane sugar) in Sugarland,Texas pulling almost
everything
except the corporate offices and moving the cane operation to Brazil.
That happened almost a decade ago.....now Brazil is talking vegetable oil.
Wonder how long it will be before those outsource to Brazil ag. industry?
The question that comes to mind is ....Why is global free trade dependent
on the
US being totally on dependent everything? With anybody depending on the US
for
something being a unspeakable evil?
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
14 Mar 2007 08:42:55 AM |
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"Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
Why is global free trade dependent
on the
US being totally on dependent everything?
Because we are lazy and greedy sods, and we outsource everything we can to
raise profits and destaff.
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| User: "hanson" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 06:44:04 PM |
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"Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1173477597_3353@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
"Frank" <frank.logullo@dol.net> wrote in message
news:1173472077.134992.54580@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Joe Fischer <j...@bigscreencomputers.com> wrote:
On 9 Mar 2007 11:18:17 -0800, "Frank" <frank.logu...@dol.net> wrote:
[Dan Bloomquist]
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/3cf542b487938b3d
" Brazil's Ethanol Plan Breeds Rural Poverty, Environm'l Degradation"
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
[hanson]
Dan!:... $$$$$... that's what they were/are thinking. $$$$ are green
[Frank]
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
[Joe Fischer]
Both of you have a warped viewpoint, the tariff allows
US companies and workers compete against imports.
The article posted talks of abused workers, yet
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
It is easy to sit around and criticize like old women,
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
[Frank]
No, Joe, I'm an old male chemist. Ph.D. with over 40 years experience in
industry. It is unfortunate that more chemists do not speak up about
this lunacy. --
[Arni]
Brazil has already killed the sugar cane market with Imperial Sugar(which
has a virtual monoploy on US cane sugar) in Sugarland,Texas pulling almost
everything except the corporate offices and moving the cane operation to
Brazil.
That happened almost a decade ago.....now Brazil is talking vegetable oil.
Wonder how long it will be before those outsource to Brazil ag. industry?
The question that comes to mind is ....
Why is global free trade dependent on the US being totally on dependent
everything? With anybody depending on the US for something being a
unspeakable evil?
[hanson]
NONE of those, none of these problems, would have arisen
if it would not have been for the machinations of the enviros.
And "It is unfortunate that more chemists do not speak up about
this lunacy". And because too few did, we now will have to pay
the green pipers. The entire sad green show before your eyes
is happening because the enviro pipers said and still do say:
= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
= believe is true. -- Paul Watson, Sea Shepard/ex-Greenpeace, &...
= "A lot of environmental [sci/soc/pol] messages are simply not
= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
= "If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic, then .... make it
= up on the spot ... for the mass-media today ... the truth is irrelevant."
= -- Paul Watson in Earthforce: An Earth Warrior's Guide to Strategy.
= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
= "It is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presen-
= tations" -- Al Gore, Chairman, Gen. Investment Management Bank.
and ****The GREEN BIBLE & its enviro Theology ***** says in this link :
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/1105903c92d2a988
** Environmentalism is for $$$, the environment is only the come-on **
= Enviros use the same great lies of yore. Only the color changed.
= Environmentalism is Communism in Green...
= Environmentalism is Nazism in Green...
**Environmentalism "makes the Rich richer and the Poor poorer!" **
What to do?... Instead of crying and whining like class 3 enviros (see
link) become a class 2 enviro, like Al Gore, and cash in while the going
is $$$$green$$$$.... ahahaha... ahahahanson
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| User: "Eeyore" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 06:39:32 PM |
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Frank wrote:
Joe Fischer <j...@bigscreencomputers.com> wrote:
It is easy to sit around and criticize like old women,
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
No, Joe, I'm an old male chemist. Ph.D. with over 40 years experience
in industry. It is unfortunate that more chemists do not speak up
about this lunacy.
Using *corn* to make ethanol is relatively daft.
Graham
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| User: "Joe Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 07:23:30 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:39:32 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Using *corn* to make ethanol is relatively daft.
Graham
The only reason(s) they have used corn
to make ethanol is because the grain elevators
and storage barns were full of the stuff, and no
place to put the next harvest.
And experience is available in the food
grade ethanol industry, plus I think part of the
corn plant can be used in place of yeast for
fermentation.
It makes a lot more sense to make
ethanol from corn than to have people burning
corn for space heating, that shows how crazy
the price of oil is.
I would like to find out if yeast is readily
available to ferment yard waste or any other
fiber material, I want to get a permit and make
the exhaust and coolant heat of my car into
a still, to see if it will distill a certain percentage
alcohol wort (beer) to use as fuel in real time,
with no gasoline at all, just the alcohol vapor
from the still or maybe just from the boiler.
I am not concerned with the amount of
water vapor that might be in with the alcohol
vapor, in 1949 I ran my car and turned a
garden hose on in the carburetor to see how
much steam it would make.
Joe Fischer
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 11:09:23 PM |
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Frank wrote:
On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Joe Fischer <j...@bigscreencomputers.com> wrote:
On 9 Mar 2007 11:18:17 -0800, "Frank" <frank.logu...@dol.net> wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they
can rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
Both of you have a warped viewpoint, the tariff allows
US companies and workers compete against imports.
A good way to get a farmer around here pissed around here when they talk
about people being on welfare is to ask the difference between welfare and
parity.
If the farmers want to compete, do it with viable options that do more than
break even.
The article posted talks of abused workers, yet
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
Same thing happened in the depression. What makes you assue that just
because they traveled they were NOT abused?
It is easy to sit around and criticize like old women,
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
How much more food can you buy with 0.0000000000001 quad than with none?
Right. Those are the same arguments used by those who employed children
before the child labor laws came into being.
Joe Fischer
No, Joe, I'm an old male chemist. Ph.D. with over 40 years experience
in industry. It is unfortunate that more chemists do not speak up
about this lunacy.
Frank
Science Friday on National Public Radio had quite a bit to say about this
today.
They also said the white house had the same information.
.
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| User: "Dan Bloomquist" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 11:30:17 PM |
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Mike Painter wrote:
Science Friday on National Public Radio had quite a bit to say about this
today.
They also said the white house had the same information.
I'm a regular listener of Science Friday. And as usual, I heard today's
show. (I have a little FM transmitter I made so I can listen to feeds in
the shop, lab, or at the backyard fire with my wife.)
Of course I listened carefully. Lot's of 'we could'. And it was a very
good show this time. No hydrogen fantasies.
But they never, and never do, compare, even the potentials, to real
world demand for liquid fuels.
Touchy Feely.........
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| User: "Joe Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 12:18:29 AM |
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On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:09:23 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The article posted talks of abused workers, yet
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
Same thing happened in the depression. What makes you assue that just
because they traveled they were NOT abused?
When an importer buys sugar, should he ask
if the workers in the field were abused?
The fact that the workers had no other job
to go to means they were glad to get the income
from the sugar harvest, and I am glad they were
able to get a job and make some money, but
it is up to the local situation in South America
to determine the pay.
There is no way to totally adjust import
prices so that wages here equal wages there,
US agriculture has been just too productive,
and that drove prices down, but now prices
are going back up.
The consumer might not like it, but
the farmer should hope some hope for
better prices to continue.
Joe Fischer
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| User: "Joe Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
09 Mar 2007 06:43:41 PM |
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On 9 Mar 2007 12:27:57 -0800, "Frank" <frank.logullo@dol.net> wrote:
On Mar 9, 2:39 pm, Joe Fischer <j...@bigscreencomputers.com> wrote:
On 9 Mar 2007 11:18:17 -0800, "Frank" <frank.logu...@dol.net> wrote:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
And, for a few tenths of a quad. What were they thinking????
Farm lobby in US got a ~50 cents/gallon tariff on ethanol so they can
rape and pillage US country side with this insanity ;(
Frank
Both of you have a warped viewpoint, the tariff allows
US companies and workers compete against imports.
The article posted talks of abused workers, yet
says migrant workers come from miles away to earn
the money, otherwise they would earn none.
It is easy to sit around and criticize like old women,
but a little different to just do something to help, even if
it is only 0.0000000000001 quad.
Joe Fischer
No, Joe, I'm an old male chemist. Ph.D. with over 40 years experience
in industry. It is unfortunate that more chemists do not speak up
about this lunacy.
Frank
I didn't read where you explained. How does
planting crops on land that is laying idle with just weeds
and wild grass growing "rape and pillage the countryside"?
Ethanol plants need to start looking for a feedstock
other than corn, and begin to think of profitable production
for local consumption instead of just supplying the ethanol
for the federal mandate E10, which has more than one
purpose, it increases octane, it burns a little cleaner, the
10 percent ethanol is carbon neutral, it avoids billions
of gallons of imported oil, reducing the yearly trade
deficit by Billions of dollars.
As a chemist you should not be surprised or
disturbed that ethanol does not produce the BTUs
of gasoline, so what is the objection that over shadows
the advantages?
Joe Fischer
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: Brazil's Ethanol... |
10 Mar 2007 09:34:07 PM |
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I pay $ 4 hour usd in brazil.
I make $ 1800 an acre year.
people run machines its no fucking mule operation and slave labor.
What euro cant compete with is $ 20 acre I paid for land .
My overhead is the land and $ 1800 a year wount by colorado acre.
1 million acres cost me 20 million plus the investment of rail port
machines and plant .
200 million buck farm puts out 1 billion a year profit.
I dont give a flying ***** if it hurts some farmers ***** . he can load
his fucking tractors up and farm brazil all winter and make some money
or shut te ***** up .
Ill put the worlds best chicken on the worlds table for 32 cents pound.
If the usa farmer and merchant could they would charge 220 cents
pound.
Tomattoes hit 100 cents because some ***** bribes some senetor into
protecting some florida grower that farms like a dumbass .
Tomattoes are the best in mexico and 15 cents pound.
Its the consumer getting fucked so bad the middle class dont give the
kids any.
When tomattoes are 25 cents pound te kids get all they want but at 100
cents they dont see any.
I dont give a ***** IF that famer lost his *****.
YOU would protect that wealthy slob wile grows less to jack the price up
so the kids in brazil nor usa eat.
free market rules dude ,,the rules are the rules so tuff ***** if you
cant beet my 400 buck ton *****.
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| User: "=?UTF-8?Q?Jeff=E2=80=A6Relf?=" |
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| Title: I love me some tomatoes. |
10 Mar 2007 10:35:22 PM |
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Hi T.J., I love me some tomatoes, but here in Seattle,
the cheapest ones ( Romas ) are 2.29 U.S. dollars a pound.
The other's are 3.99 a pound ( and probably higher ).
Better tomatoes are .25 dollars a pound in Mexico, you say ?
They're probably taxed and regulated out of my grocery store.
A bag if M&Ms is often .33 dollars.
Safeway is my cheapest grocery store.
Quoting from " http://WikiPedia.ORG/wiki/Safeway_Inc. ":
" Supermarket News ranked Safeway No. 4 in
the 2007 ' Top 75 North American Food Retailers ' based on
2006 fiscal year estimated sales of 40.5 billion dollars. "
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