| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"gubernacullum" |
| Date: |
08 Jan 2006 06:35:41 PM |
| Object: |
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
.
|
|
| User: "Alternaria Alternata" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
09 Jan 2006 01:32:53 PM |
|
|
"gubernacullum" <gubernacullum@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136651656.612122.156980@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Light can easily be bent by a piece of glass.
You don't need a EM field.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Der alte Hexenmeister" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
09 Jan 2006 03:57:38 PM |
|
|
"Alternaria Alternata" <invaild@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:43c2ba4d$0$8082$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
"gubernacullum" <gubernacullum@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136651656.612122.156980@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Light can easily be bent by a piece of glass.
You don't need a EM field.
Sheesh... You mean that stick in water isn't really bent? :-)
--
Der alte Hexenmeister ist:
Sorcerer Androcles Dumbledore, Headmaster, hogwarts.physics school
for zauberlehrlings.
"One muggle's magic is another sorcerer's engineering"
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mathew Orman" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
08 Jan 2006 06:40:53 PM |
|
|
"gubernacullum" <gubernacullum@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136651656.612122.156980@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Yes, but only when passing through matter.
Mathew Orman
.
|
|
|
| User: "gubernacullum" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
08 Jan 2006 08:31:23 PM |
|
|
i am slightly confused.
light is bent because it is attracted/absorbed/deflected by the
electron right? the electron creates an electromagnetic field right? so
when light bends around the corner of a slit or a star, it is the em
field of its electrons which is causing this bending and not gravity or
some other force.
thnx.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mathew Orman" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
09 Jan 2006 05:27:56 AM |
|
|
"gubernacullum" <gubernacullum@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136773883.759230.10460@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
i am slightly confused.
light is bent because it is attracted/absorbed/deflected by the
electron right? the electron creates an electromagnetic field right? so
when light bends around the corner of a slit or a star, it is the em
field of its electrons which is causing this bending and not gravity or
some other force.
thnx.
Light path gets altered by reflection, refraction or self-interference
but only in the presents of entities of matter that have mass property.
What happens on atomic level is not yet known.
Electrons and photons exist only in mathematical simulations.
There are no known physical experiments that prove existence of nither.
Mathew Orman
.
|
|
|
| User: "Y.Porat" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
09 Jan 2006 07:17:32 AM |
|
|
you are at least funny!!
''Electrons and photons exist only in mathematical simulations.
There are no known physical experiments that prove existence of
nither''
you see light so 'it does not exist'
but 'mathemetically it exists' ????
iow
mathematics for you is more reliable from the aspect of 'existing or
not existing'
rather then your senses??
so what is in doubt for you
the light that you *see* or
the claim that light is composed of photons??
ATB
Y.Porat
--------------
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mathew Orman" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
09 Jan 2006 08:36:52 AM |
|
|
"Y.Porat" <maporat@012.net.il> wrote in message
news:1136812652.438443.259430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
you are at least funny!!
''Electrons and photons exist only in mathematical simulations.
There are no known physical experiments that prove existence of
nither''
you see light so 'it does not exist'
but 'mathemetically it exists' ????
iow
mathematics for you is more reliable from the aspect of 'existing or
not existing'
rather then your senses??
so what is in doubt for you
the light that you *see* or
the claim that light is composed of photons??
ATB
Y.Porat
--------------
Photon was not discovered nor separated from light.
Electron the same way, it was not discovered nor separated from
a stream or charge.
Mathew Orman
.
|
|
|
| User: "Y.Porat" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
09 Jan 2006 11:10:27 AM |
|
|
so who am i to stop you from your innovations !! (:-)
ATB
Y.Porat
-----------------------------
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Autymn D. C." |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
09 Jan 2006 04:10:46 PM |
|
|
Gregory, Mathew, Yehiel, Sch=F6nfeld, and Alternaria are contradictory
dumbasses.
Liht is not a thing, but a deed; liht is not a noun, but a verb. The
field /is/ matter and, as matter transacts by energy, it must shape
energy lest it not exist at all.
Study this explanation of energy and matter:
<http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/65ccda65df733=
f95/28d3d018168fd742#28d3d018168fd742>.
Coulomb's law proves that space is not empty, that distance and size
are the same entity, that electrons are not points, that liht and
energy are an epifenomenon, and hence liht is not sundren from its
spring and sink. The =E6ther, the field, and the matter are the same
entity.
-Aut
.
|
|
|
| User: "Y.Porat" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
10 Jan 2006 12:51:07 AM |
|
|
disturbed imbecil
Y.P
----------------------
.
|
|
|
| User: "Autymn D. C." |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 09:27:43 PM |
|
|
Y.Porat wrote:
disturbed imbecil
disturbed -> disturbate
imbecil -> imbecile
You.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
13 Jan 2006 04:03:14 PM |
|
|
Yes, of course. Remember Faraday? 150 years ago he proved it,
experimentally.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
13 Jan 2006 04:55:25 PM |
|
|
In article <1137189793.963884.129180@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:
Yes, of course.
Nah.
Remember Faraday? 150 years ago he proved it,
experimentally.
You must confuse it with something else.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 01:45:16 AM |
|
|
I'm afraid not. Faraday "bent" light by using an electromagnet to the
"amazement" of hordes of spectators.It is so old that many learned
people have forgotten....
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Mainville" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 05:35:23 PM |
|
|
Faraday effect
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
In physics, the Faraday effect or Faraday rotation is an interaction between
light and a magnetic field. The rotation of the plane of polarization is
proportional to the intensity of the component of the magnetic field in the
direction of the beam of light.
The Faraday effect, a type of magneto-optic effect, discovered by Michael
Faraday in 1845, was the first experimental evidence that light and
magnetism are related. The theoretical basis for that relation, now called
electromagnetic radiation, was developed by James Clerk Maxwell in the
1860's and 1870's. This effect occurs in most optically transparent
dielectric materials (including liquids) when they are subject to strong
magnetic fields.
The Faraday effect does not bend light, it rotates the direction of
polarization.
<clujdej@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137311116.454095.142230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I'm afraid not. Faraday "bent" light by using an electromagnet to the
"amazement" of hordes of spectators.It is so old that many learned
people have forgotten....
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 01:53:55 AM |
|
|
To be precise: "bent" as in "changed the polarization"
http://www.rigb.org/rimain/heritage/faradaypage.jsp
Since light is nothing but an electromagnetic wave, of course that it
would interact with another electromagnetic field (as in the case of
his experiments, the field produced by an electromagnet).
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 02:45:27 AM |
|
|
In article <1137311635.110913.37930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:
To be precise: "bent" as in "changed the polarization"
http://www.rigb.org/rimain/heritage/faradaypage.jsp
Since light is nothing but an electromagnetic wave, of course that it
would interact with another electromagnetic field (as in the case of
his experiments, the field produced by an electromagnet).
Perhaps you meant to say "of course not":-)
Maxwell's equations are linear. Do you understand the meaning?
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 10:01:06 AM |
|
|
"bent" as in changed.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 11:26:13 AM |
|
|
"Thomson asked Faraday if had ever investigated whether light was
affected when passing through an electrolyte. Faraday said he had tried
this experiment but had not found any effect, but would try again. When
he repeated this experiment he still found no effect. It then occurred
to him to see what would happen to light passing near to a powerful
magnet. This he did by placing a piece of heavy glass on the poles of a
powerful electro-magnet; then he passed polarised light through the
glass; when he turned the electro-magnet on he found that the state of
polarisation of the light changed.
This experiment told Faraday two things. First that light had been
affected by magnetic force - the magneto-optical effect, which later
became known as the Faraday Effect."
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 01:46:32 PM |
|
|
In article <1137345973.411426.317710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "clujdej@yahoo.com" <clujdej@yahoo.com> writes:
"Thomson asked Faraday if had ever investigated whether light was
affected when passing through an electrolyte. Faraday said he had tried
this experiment but had not found any effect, but would try again. When
he repeated this experiment he still found no effect. It then occurred
to him to see what would happen to light passing near to a powerful
magnet. This he did by placing a piece of heavy glass on the poles of a
powerful electro-magnet; then he passed polarised light through the
glass; when he turned the electro-magnet on he found that the state of
polarisation of the light changed.
This experiment told Faraday two things. First that light had been
affected by magnetic force - the magneto-optical effect, which later
became known as the Faraday Effect."
Aha. Now, try the same without the glass, just passing light between
the poles of a magnet. Observe and draw conclusions.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "srp" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
09 Jan 2006 11:16:37 AM |
|
|
gubernacullum a écrit :
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Since lignt is electromagnetic energy to start with, wouldn't it
be surprising if it wasn't ?
The problem is with verification. I seem to remember having
read that light can be focused by magnetic lensing.
André Michaud
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Sam Wormley" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
08 Jan 2006 08:08:33 PM |
|
|
gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Ask yourself, "do electromagnetic fields and energy, and, therefore,
equivalent mass"?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Schoenfeld" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
08 Jan 2006 09:43:41 PM |
|
|
gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
No. The scale-invariant electromagnetic field makes no contribution to
the Weyl tensor.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "tadchem" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 08:19:32 PM |
|
|
gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.
Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."
BTW, the answer is yes.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 09:46:42 PM |
|
|
In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> writes:
gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.
Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."
BTW, the answer is yes.
Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at
least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.
That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
|
|
|
| User: "RP" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 10:00:37 PM |
|
|
wrote:
In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> writes:
gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.
Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."
BTW, the answer is yes.
Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at
least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.
That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.
One might also interpret such a prediction of a minor unobserved effect
as being the result of an error in the model.
That has me wondering, has anyone ever attempted to adjust the model to
eliminate the chance of nothing interacting with nothing?
Richard Perry
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Creighton Hogg" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 10:30:43 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 wrote:
In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> writes:
gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.
Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."
BTW, the answer is yes.
Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at
least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.
That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.
There's ideas floating out there in the hep community about
a photon photon collider: the ultimate in a clean signal!
Just googling you can find a bit on the proposed Tesla
project, which I think has a fairly nebulous status at the
moment.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 11:23:16 PM |
|
|
In article <Pine.LNX.4.58.0601152227280.7311@login01.hep.wisc.edu>, Creighton Hogg <wchogg@login01.hep.wisc.edu> writes:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 wrote:
In article <1137377972.186210.210690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "tadchem" <thomas.davidson@dla.mil> writes:
gubernacullum wrote:
can light be bent by electromagnetic fields?
Now that you have been introduced to the Usenet and the volume of
apparently credible crap you get in response to an honest question, try
a little research.
Key phrases you will find useful are "Zeeman Effect" and "Faraday
rotation."
BTW, the answer is yes.
Actually, no. Light doesn't interact with EM fields (classically, at
least). Light interacts with field sources (charges and current).
Now, field sources interact with fields, thus within material medium,
where sources are present, EM fields may interact with the sources
which, in turn, interact with the light. But no direct interaction
between the light and the field is present.
That's classically. Quantum mechanically there is a possibility of a
higher order process where a photon generates a virtual
particle-antiparticle pair which, in turn, interacts with another
photon, but the cross-section is extremely small. Also, in GR there
is in principle a possibility of gravitational interaction between
light and an EM field but, again, the magnitude of the effect is
extremely small for any reasonable field densities.
There's ideas floating out there in the hep community about
a photon photon collider: the ultimate in a clean signal!
Clean, for sure, just not too much of it:-) But if funding is
guaranteed for the span of time it'll take to accumulate decent
statistics, there should be considerable interest:-)
Just googling you can find a bit on the proposed Tesla
project, which I think has a fairly nebulous status at the
moment.
So it seems. And that's much simpler than photon-photon.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
15 Jan 2006 11:35:38 PM |
|
|
Hmm, you seem to know a lot more than I do on this subject. You'll have
to excuse my naivete but if you start from the Maxwell equations in
free space :
\nabla \cdot \mathbf{E} = 0
\nabla \cdot \mathbf{H} = 0
\nabla \times \mathbf{E} = - \mu_0 \frac{\partial\mathbf{H}}
{\partial t}
\nabla \times \mathbf{H} = \ \ \varepsilon_0 \frac{\partial
\mathbf{E}} {\partial t}
These equations have a simple solution in terms of travelling
sinusoidal plane waves, with the electric and magnetic field directions
orthogonal to one another and the direction of travel, and with the two
fields in phase, travelling at the speed
c = \frac{1}{\sqrt{\mu_0 \varepsilon_0}}
and you apply the superposition effect, i.e. you superimpose the B' of
Faraday's coil it is kind of evident that you get a new set of
solutions for the partial differential equations, meaning that the
light waveform has changed polarization. I might be wrong....
.
|
|
|
| User: "RP" |
|
| Title: Re: can light be bent by electromagnetic fields? |
16 Jan 2006 12:07:12 AM |
|
|
wrote:
Hmm, you seem to know a lot more than I do on this subject. You'll have
to excuse my naivete but if you start from the Maxwell equations in
free space :
\nabla \cdot \mathbf{E} = 0
\nabla \cdot \mathbf{H} = 0
\nabla \times \mathbf{E} = - \mu_0 \frac{\partial\mathbf{H}}
{\partial t}
\nabla \times \mathbf{H} = \ \ \varepsilon_0 \frac{\partial
\mathbf{E}} {\partial t}
These equations have a simple solution in terms of travelling
sinusoidal plane waves, with the electric and magnetic field directions
orthogonal to one another and the direction of travel, and with the two
fields in phase, travelling at the speed
c = \frac{1}{\sqrt{\mu_0 \varepsilon_0}}
and you apply the superposition effect, i.e. you superimpose the B' of
Faraday's coil it is kind of evident that you get a new set of
solutions for the partial differential equations, meaning that the
light waveform has changed polarization. I might be wrong....
It's precisely the superposition of fields that won't allow rotation of
the polarization of an emitted beam by the ambient magnetic field alone.
If the beam is allowed to pass through the Faraday coil field, through
vacuum, on to some distant detector, then the polarization angle of the
beam will be the same as measured at the source, that is, assuming that
there is no ambient magnetic field in the vicinity of either the source
or the detector. With a transparent media located within the magnetic
field, e.g. the glass, the media itself will be affected by the ambient
field such that oscillations of charges within it won't correspond to
the polarization of the light beam alone. The superposed field affects
the polarization of the charge oscillations. The secondary radiation
that results will be torqued wrt the incident radiation. This is not
however the same beam anymore. The distinction is that the field
experienced by the charges in the glass is rotated wrt the beam via the
superposition of the two fields, while the incident beam itself is not
rotated.
Richard Perry
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
