| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Externet" |
| Date: |
20 Jan 2005 11:02:06 AM |
| Object: |
Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
A force applied to a mass will produce an acceleration during the time
it is applied. After the force ceases, the speed remains constant and
the mass continues to move in a straight line unless other forces are
present.
A propulsion rocket, transported to and assembled
vertically upside down on the moon surface, pushing at the moon equator
away from earth with its millions of pounds force for the about 5
minutes the fuel lasts.
The moon will shift somewhat its orbit outwards those 5 minutes and
then describe a larger diameter circular orbit, an eliptical orbit or
will its orbit continue to spiral away outwards after the fuel is
spent?
Thanks.
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| User: "Old Man" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
20 Jan 2005 10:35:52 PM |
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"Externet" <externet@inorbit.com> wrote in message
news:1106240525.967594.147050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
A force applied to a mass will produce an acceleration during the time
it is applied. After the force ceases, the speed remains constant and
the mass continues to move in a straight line unless other forces are
present.
A propulsion rocket, transported to and assembled
vertically upside down on the moon surface, pushing at the moon equator
away from earth with its millions of pounds force for the about 5
minutes the fuel lasts.
The moon will shift somewhat its orbit outwards those 5 minutes and
then describe a larger diameter circular orbit, an eliptical orbit or
will its orbit continue to spiral away outwards after the fuel is
spent?
Thanks.
Definitely not a spiral. An outward radial impulse
increases the Moon's orbital energy without altering
its orbital angular momentum about the Earth. A
radial impulse causes an elongation of the Moons
elliptical orbit about the Earth.
[Old Man]
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| User: "Dave Langers" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
20 Jan 2005 11:19:14 AM |
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A force applied to a mass will produce an acceleration during the time
it is applied. After the force ceases, the speed remains constant and
the mass continues to move in a straight line unless other forces are
present.
A propulsion rocket, transported to and assembled
vertically upside down on the moon surface, pushing at the moon equator
away from earth with its millions of pounds force for the about 5
minutes the fuel lasts.
The moon will shift somewhat its orbit outwards those 5 minutes and
then describe a larger diameter circular orbit, an eliptical orbit or
will its orbit continue to spiral away outwards after the fuel is
spent?
Assuming the orbit of the moon was circular before, an eliptical orbit.
--
M.vr.gr.
Dave
("d-dot-langers-at-wxs-dot-nl")
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
20 Jan 2005 01:56:06 PM |
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Externet wrote:
A force applied to a mass will produce an acceleration during the time
it is applied. After the force ceases, the speed remains constant and
the mass continues to move in a straight line unless other forces are
present.
If it is an inertial system in Minkwoski space, sure. Othewise you
also have fictitious forces and tidal forces respectively
A propulsion rocket, transported to and assembled
vertically upside down on the moon surface, pushing at the moon equator
away from earth with its millions of pounds force for the about 5
minutes the fuel lasts.
An INERTIAL system.
The moon will shift somewhat its orbit outwards those 5 minutes and
then describe a larger diameter circular orbit, an eliptical orbit or
will its orbit continue to spiral away outwards after the fuel is
spent?
Oh jeees. It's orbit changes shape. What you microscopically get
depends on phase angle, thrust vector vs. orbital acceleration
vector. Energy, linear momentum, and angular momentum are locally
conserved.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
21 Jan 2005 10:19:51 AM |
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its not pushing the moon out ,,its slowing the moon up .
had you pointed it down twards the earth and fired it the radius
would be less and the moon speed up .
But you pinted out trying to make the radius longer ,,it slowed down
just like you tryed to push the moon backwards to stop it.
Pushing it down is the same as pushing it forward and speeding it up.
But it wount change speeds untill it changed directions.
Pushing it forward faster wount make it go faster , it will be
directly converted to UP.
Slowing it down wount slow it down but change its direction to down if
you pushed backwards on it.
you tthink your pushing on the moon but your pushing on the radius and
not afecting speed because the force you aply is conerted and its not
doing what you know push forward dose.
Your converting speed directly into lift.
Or converting less speed into less lift.
Your not pushing out on te moon ,,your streching the radius.
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
20 Jan 2005 11:09:38 AM |
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Externet wrote:
A force applied to a mass will produce an acceleration during the time
it is applied. After the force ceases, the speed remains constant and
the mass continues to move in a straight line unless other forces are
present.
A propulsion rocket, transported to and assembled
vertically upside down on the moon surface, pushing at the moon equator
away from earth with its millions of pounds force for the about 5
minutes the fuel lasts.
The moon will shift somewhat its orbit outwards those 5 minutes and
then describe a larger diameter circular orbit, an eliptical orbit or
will its orbit continue to spiral away outwards after the fuel is
spent?
Elliptical orbit.
Bye,
Bjoern
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
20 Jan 2005 10:44:43 PM |
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Externet wrote:
The moon will shift somewhat its orbit outwards those 5 minutes and
then describe a larger diameter circular orbit, an eliptical orbit or
will its orbit continue to spiral away outwards after the fuel is
spent?
See: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/OrbitalPerturbation.html
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| User: "Externet" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
21 Jan 2005 12:50:02 PM |
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Thanks for all your replies, gentlemen.
From what I understand now, pushing the moon radially away from earth
would make its orbit more elliptic to a degree proportional to the
force and the time applied.
A larger force and/or longer application time would make it highly
eliptic, but would never stop orbiting. It would not be possible to
transfer the moon into orbiting another planet, as Venus, even if the
propulsion resource was unlimited.
But missions to the moon did orbit the earth before changing course by
spiraling away towards the moon by properly timed application of
thrust; and same during the mission, orbiting the moon changing course
into spiraling the return.
By amount of thrust, or the time the thrust is applied, seems it has to
be possible to turn an orbit into spiraling away. But all the forces
from random meteorite impacts to the moon during millions of years have
not spiraled it away, so you should all be right.
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| User: "CWatters" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
21 Jan 2005 01:42:41 PM |
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"Externet" <externet@inorbit.com> wrote in message
news:1106333402.145460.133350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
It would not be possible to
transfer the moon into orbiting another planet, as Venus, even if the
propulsion resource was unlimited.
Actually that would be possible but not in the simple way you describe....
Essentially you need to accelerate the moon until it achives escape
velocity. See..
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae158.cfm
Then it would probably start orbiting the sun instead (although what that
orbit would look like I don't know).
Then you would be advised to give the moon "gentle" nudges until it's orbit
is eliptical enough that it crosses the path of the planet you are aiming
for.
Then you need to wait until just the right moment and apply more thrust to
slow the moon down to below the escape velocity of the new host.
Something like that anyway.
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| User: "Externet" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
21 Jan 2005 05:20:07 PM |
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OK !
Escape velocity. That is the key.
Thanks.-
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
21 Jan 2005 07:26:34 PM |
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The eliptical orbit people think the string will stay the same lenth and
they will have an eliptical orbit like they pushed out on a mass on a
string ,,
I might sight pushing in on it to cause an eliptical orbit.
But he is pushing out and it is the same as pushing back .
Pushing down is the same as pushing forward.
Pushing forward faster will make it go faster and orbit higher.
Pushing it down will convert radius directly into speed that will
biuld up and it will ballon over the orbit into an eliptical orbit.
Pushing out without pushing forward will cause it to slow down .
radius is converted direct to a speed change .
pushing back against it to slow it up will change its direction twards
earth wile speeding it up will change the direction away from earth.
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| User: "tj Frazir" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
21 Jan 2005 07:45:09 PM |
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rocket man fires the rocket to make him go faster in the orbit.
will he ??
A.. go faster
B ,, go slower at a higher orbit.
C , go faster at a higher orbit.
................................................................
hint is speed is converted into radius.
How else will you go 17000 mph at 200 miles up ,,fire the rocket as
if to speed it up but it dont speed up it slows down and is orbiting
higher.
IF you are going to predict what will happen then point out what
force you opossed.
what force was converted to what action.
Below the excape speed firing the rocket would have been more speed.
BUT the line is very fine and anything over that speed is conerted
into lift and a change of orbit. Befor more rocket will make you go
faster you must travel in a strait line and at that point your not in
orbit then it will speed up with the rocket.
The excape speed ,,orbit speed plus some more thrust will change the
speed directly into a higher orbit at less speed.
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| User: "Bjoern Feuerbacher" |
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| Title: Re: Circular, eliptical or spiral ? |
22 Jan 2005 06:41:17 AM |
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Externet wrote:
Thanks for all your replies, gentlemen.
From what I understand now, pushing the moon radially away from earth
would make its orbit more elliptic to a degree proportional to the
force and the time applied.
Greater ellipticity (eccentricity) for greater force and time,
but not *proportionally* greater.
A larger force and/or longer application time would make it highly
eliptic, but would never stop orbiting.
Wrong. You could get parabolic or hyperbolic motions.
It would not be possible to
transfer the moon into orbiting another planet, as Venus, even if the
propulsion resource was unlimited.
Again, wrong.
But missions to the moon did orbit the earth before changing course by
spiraling away towards the moon
Missions to the moon did not ever "spiral" away, AFAIK.
by properly timed application of
thrust; and same during the mission, orbiting the moon changing course
into spiraling the return.
Where did you get this "spiral" from?
By amount of thrust, or the time the thrust is applied, seems it has to
be possible to turn an orbit into spiraling away. But all the forces
from random meteorite impacts to the moon during millions of years have
not spiraled it away, so you should all be right.
The reason that the moon is still there is simply that so
far, no force that acted on it was high enough to push it
completely out of its orbit.
Bye,
Bjoern
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