Science > Physics > Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers
| Topic: |
Science > Physics |
| User: |
"Perspicacious" |
| Date: |
12 Mar 2005 12:58:53 PM |
| Object: |
Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, pointwise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
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| User: "Bilge" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
12 Mar 2005 10:44:24 PM |
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Perspicacious:
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, pointwise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
You say the same thing about everyone who tells you that you're
notions about relativity are quirky. Same goes for your so-called
question. You pose a loaded question minus the context in the
hope someone will provide you with an answer you can misconstrue
into support for an argument you didn't post.
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
12 Mar 2005 04:16:10 PM |
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"Perspicacious" <iperspicacious@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110653933.567998.121450@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, pointwise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
No. Time actually is somewhat different from space.
--
Franz
"A first-rate laboratory is one in which mediocre scientists can
produce outstanding work"
P.M.S. Blackett
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
12 Mar 2005 05:11:33 PM |
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"Perspicacious" <iperspicacious@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1110653933.567998.121450@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, pointwise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
Clock time is what you read on your clock.
Have you turned *completely* stupid now, or waht?
Dirk Vdm=
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
12 Mar 2005 01:06:04 PM |
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Perspicacious wrote:
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, pointwise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
[snip]
Time is what a clock measures, neither more nor less. If you do not
like oscillators, use radioactive decay.
http://fourmilab.to/etexts/einstein/specrel/specrel.pdf
<http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/sr/ae_1905_error.htm>
<http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/finkelstein/relativity.pdf>
Longitudinal and transverse mass
Physics Today 58(3) 34 (2005)
Time passage, equator vs. poles
General Relativity (SR is GR with Newton's G set to zero) is perfect
within experimtnal error in very prediction vs. observation at every
scale. Internal inconsistencies in SR (meaning inconsistencies of a
purely mathematical logical nature) automatically lead to
contradictions in number theory, itself, and arithmetic, since the
mathematics of Minkowski geometry is equiconsistent with the theory of
real numbers and with arithmetic.
<http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2001-4/index.html>
http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0311039
<http://www.weburbia.demon.co.uk/physics/experiments.html>
Experimental constraints on General Relativity
<http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/ptti2002/paper20.pdf>
Nature 425 374 (2003)
http://www.eftaylor.com/pub/projecta.pdf
<http://www.public.asu.edu/~rjjacob/Lecture16.pdf>
<http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/index.html>
Relativity in the GPS system (weak field)
Science 303(5661) 1143;1153 (2004)
http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0401086
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0312071
<http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-5/index.html>
<http://skyandtelescope.com/news/article_1473_1.asp>
Deeply relativistic neutron star binaries (strong field)
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
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| User: "Sam Wormley" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
12 Mar 2005 01:18:34 PM |
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Perspicacious wrote:
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, point wise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
As A. Einstein pointed out in 1905, time is what an observer
measures with a clock. The notion has been confirmed for about
a century now... and longer.
Not many people attempt to measure time with rulers. Galileo
used pendula. Atomic clocks work well. One nanosecond accuracy
is easly disseminated via the GPS.
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| User: "Harry" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
14 Mar 2005 02:34:00 AM |
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:egHYd.122171$4q6.44093@attbi_s01...
Perspicacious wrote:
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, point wise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
As A. Einstein pointed out in 1905, time is what an observer
measures with a clock. The notion has been confirmed for about
a century now... and longer.
As A.Einstein pointed out in 1911, time is not just what an observer
measures with a clock.
This has been confirmed with GPS clocks that need to be corrected for speed
and gravitational potential, just as A. Einstein predicted.
Harald
Not many people attempt to measure time with rulers. Galileo
used pendula. Atomic clocks work well. One nanosecond accuracy
is easly disseminated via the GPS.
.
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| User: "Franz Heymann" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
14 Mar 2005 04:57:03 PM |
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"Harry" <harald.vanlintel@epfl.ch> wrote in message
news:42354c7d$1@epflnews.epfl.ch...
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:egHYd.122171$4q6.44093@attbi_s01...
Perspicacious wrote:
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert
in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, point
wise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
As A. Einstein pointed out in 1905, time is what an observer
measures with a clock. The notion has been confirmed for about
a century now... and longer.
As A.Einstein pointed out in 1911, time is not just what an observer
measures with a clock.
This has been confirmed with GPS clocks that need to be corrected
for speed
and gravitational potential, just as A. Einstein predicted.
Each clock measures time quite correctly in its FoR. The corrections
arise when time measurements in one FoR have to be compared with time
measurements ni another FoR. And indeed, you are right, the
converesion factors turn out to be as Einstein predicted.
--
Franz
"One Galileo in 2000 years is enough."
Pope Pius XII
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
14 Mar 2005 03:38:45 AM |
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"Harry" <harald.vanlintel@epfl.ch> wrote in message news:42354c7d$1@epflnews.epfl.ch...
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:egHYd.122171$4q6.44093@attbi_s01...
Perspicacious wrote:
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, point wise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
As A. Einstein pointed out in 1905, time is what an observer
measures with a clock. The notion has been confirmed for about
a century now... and longer.
As A.Einstein pointed out in 1911, time is not just what an observer
measures with a clock.
http://www.physics.utoledo.edu/~ljc/speciaal.html
| Die "Zeit" eines Ereignisses ist die mit dem Ereignis
| gleichtzeitige Angabe einer am Orte des Ereignis befindlichen,
| ruhenden Uhr, welche mit einer bestimmten, ruhenden Uhr, und
| zwar für alle Zeitbestimmungen mit der nämlichen Uhr,
| synchron läuft.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
| The "time" of an event is that which is given simultaneously
| with the event by a stationary clock located at the place of
| the event, this clock being synchronous, and indeed synchronous
| for all time determinations, with a specified stationary clock.
This has been confirmed with GPS clocks that need to be corrected for speed
and gravitational potential, just as A. Einstein predicted.
Irrelevant - as usual.
Dirk Vdm
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| User: "Harry" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
14 Mar 2005 04:55:45 AM |
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"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:FYcZd.1581$ZG7.11@news.cpqcorp.net...
"Harry" <harald.vanlintel@epfl.ch> wrote in message
news:42354c7d$1@epflnews.epfl.ch...
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:egHYd.122171$4q6.44093@attbi_s01...
Perspicacious wrote:
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, point wise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
As A. Einstein pointed out in 1905, time is what an observer
measures with a clock. The notion has been confirmed for about
a century now... and longer.
As A.Einstein pointed out in 1911, time is not just what an observer
measures with a clock.
http://www.physics.utoledo.edu/~ljc/speciaal.html
| Die "Zeit" eines Ereignisses ist die mit dem Ereignis
| gleichtzeitige Angabe einer am Orte des Ereignis befindlichen,
| ruhenden Uhr, welche mit einer bestimmten, ruhenden Uhr, und
| zwar für alle Zeitbestimmungen mit der nämlichen Uhr,
| synchron läuft.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
| The "time" of an event is that which is given simultaneously
| with the event by a stationary clock located at the place of
| the event, this clock being synchronous, and indeed synchronous
| for all time determinations, with a specified stationary clock.
This has been confirmed with GPS clocks that need to be corrected for
speed
and gravitational potential, just as A. Einstein predicted.
Irrelevant - as usual.
As you say - your quotation of 1905 is irrelevant to represent ideas of
1911.
OTOH I admit that I could have provided a more relevant remark:
A set of two moving rulers at constant speed is indeed a clock, eventhough
it's a funny one.
Harald
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| User: "Dirk Van de moortel" |
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| Title: Re: Conceptualizing the Relativity of Clock Time with Moving Rulers |
14 Mar 2005 06:04:15 AM |
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"Harry" <harald.vanlintel@epfl.ch> wrote in message news:42356db4$1@epflnews.epfl.ch...
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:FYcZd.1581$ZG7.11@news.cpqcorp.net...
"Harry" <harald.vanlintel@epfl.ch> wrote in message
news:42354c7d$1@epflnews.epfl.ch...
"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:egHYd.122171$4q6.44093@attbi_s01...
Perspicacious wrote:
I have been arguing with a self-assured, self-proclaimed expert in
relativity who seems to not understand an elementary, point wise,
frame-dependent definition of clock time. Can clock time be
defined conceptually with moving rulers?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
As A. Einstein pointed out in 1905, time is what an observer
measures with a clock. The notion has been confirmed for about
a century now... and longer.
As A.Einstein pointed out in 1911, time is not just what an observer
measures with a clock.
http://www.physics.utoledo.edu/~ljc/speciaal.html
| Die "Zeit" eines Ereignisses ist die mit dem Ereignis
| gleichtzeitige Angabe einer am Orte des Ereignis befindlichen,
| ruhenden Uhr, welche mit einer bestimmten, ruhenden Uhr, und
| zwar für alle Zeitbestimmungen mit der nämlichen Uhr,
| synchron läuft.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
| The "time" of an event is that which is given simultaneously
| with the event by a stationary clock located at the place of
| the event, this clock being synchronous, and indeed synchronous
| for all time determinations, with a specified stationary clock.
This has been confirmed with GPS clocks that need to be corrected for
speed
and gravitational potential, just as A. Einstein predicted.
Irrelevant - as usual.
As you say - your quotation of 1905 is irrelevant to represent ideas of
1911.
OTOH I admit that I could have provided a more relevant remark:
A set of two moving rulers at constant speed is indeed a clock, eventhough
it's a funny one.
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/works/1910s/relative/index.htm
| Written: 1916
| Source: Relativity: The Special and General Theory © 1920
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/works/1910s/relative/ch08.htm
| "We are thus led also to a definition of "time" in physics.
| For this purpose we suppose that clocks of identical
| construction are placed at the points A, B and C of the
| railway line (co-ordinate system) and that they are set
| in such a manner that the positions of their pointers are
| simultaneously (in the above sense) the same. Under these
| conditions we understand by the "time" of an event the
| reading (position of the hands) of that one of these
| clocks which is in the immediate vicinity (in space) of
| the event. In this manner a time-value is associated with
| every event which is essentially capable of observation."
Dirk Vdm
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